FBI Arrests Wolverine Leaker; Don't You Feel Safer Now?
from the tax-dollars-at-work dept
Much of the reasoning behind Joe Biden's recent summit with entertainment industry bosses and a variety of top administration officials -- including the Attorney General and the head of the FBI -- was to "coordinate" enforcement efforts. Efforts, one assumes, like the FBI's hard work in tracking down and arresting the guy who put a pre-release version of the movie Wolverine online, even though it was lacking in special effects and final audio. As we noted at the time, there were many ways that the studio could have responded to the leak that made them look cool and would have encouraged more people to go see the real movie. Instead, 20th Century Fox went ballistic about how evil this was, and got the FBI to act as its private police force. Of course, despite how this leak "ruined" the movie, Wolverine (despite mostly dismal reviews) had a massive opening and went on to earn $180 million at the box office, significantly more than it's $130 million budget. But, of course, the movie industry is dying, and our tax payer money should be used to track down the guy who did so much "damage."
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Filed Under: box office, copyright, leaks, piracy, wolverine
Companies: fbi
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No
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Mike, sorry, this one leaves you sounding like a whiny child. There are plenty of laws out there I don't agree with, but I understand that law enforcement needs to, well, enforce them. I hate parking tickets and I hate that anti-abortion people absorb an incredible amount of police time and effort every year. I don't go get all whiny about it.
The guy broke the law (not just copyright, but apparently stole it off of movie property). End of story. How much the movie made or didn't make isn't material. It is up to the copyright holder to decide what is and is not given away, not some sneaky thief.
Grow up Mike, this is one where you come off very badly.
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Re:
I would be interested to know where Mike has ever suggested that laws shouldn't be enforced. There is a difference between condemning bad law and implying that lawlessness is preferred.
"The guy broke the law (not just copyright, but apparently stole it off of movie property). End of story. How much the movie made or didn't make isn't material. It is up to the copyright holder to decide what is and is not given away, not some sneaky thief."
Then you miss Mike's point, which is as nearly it always is, what they have done makes bad business sense. Put that with the crocodile tears that they are losing money and although Mike might be careful not to say that it's ok to infringe copyright, someone like me will gladly say it. Laws aren't the be all and end all, if you believe that then you might be interested to know that many of our most important law developments came about because someone broke bad law. Look up civil disobedience for some examples.
So, feel free to argue that copyright infringement is wrong and harmful but don't bother pointing out that it is unlawful. Whether something is lawful or not is only relevant to the police, everyone else is free to make their own choices even if it does end up getting them arrested. Even if they do get arrested then they are perfectly entitled to argue that what they did wasn't wrong.
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But, of course, the movie industry is dying, and our tax payer money should be used to track down the guy who did so much "damage."
Sounds to me like he is saying that taxpayer money shouldn't have been wasted enforcing the law.
This case is very particular, because it isn't about piracy directly, but rather about theft. The copy of the movie was stolen, either by hacking or literally leaving the building with a copy. At that point, he made his crime worse by uploading the file to megaupload so the whole world could get it.
Mike just isn't happy because the studios are "too dumb" to profit from the free advertising. You know, the advertising they didn't choose to have, that they probably didn't want, and some dumbass from the Bronx gave them anyway?
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Nope, what they did makes perfect business sense. This isn't a case of a minor piece of piracy, this is someone stealing their product from inside the company, and giving it away online. The giving it away online isn't anywhere near the issue compared to the actual theft (no wiggle room on this one) of the product.
Mike's take is that the company should look at whatever promotional value they got (hard to tell, and I often think that whatever benefit comes is offset by lost sales on the other side), and ignore the crime. What do they do next time when someone comes in and steals the finished copy, or wanders away with their production equipmnent? After all, it's just a little theft, who cares? Maybe someone will write about it or make a you tube video and they will get advertising value.
What a crock of horse poop that is!
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That's right, promotional value is part of it. There's a lot of other factors to consider too. It's not as cut and dried as "He took our stuff, fuck him". One of the other factors is how this reaction makes the studios look. Another one of the other factors is that "downloads != lost sales". Another one of the other factors is the impossibility of stopping it. There's an inevitability factor to contend with; as soon as you make something visible to that many people, it's going to get captured with current technology, and that problem is only going to worsen over the next few years.
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As you will see from the swedish music sales numbers for 2009, it appears clear that a decline in piracy is represented pretty much directly by an increase in music sales. I think that the old ""downloads != lost sales" is being rapidly debunked.
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Why the hell should some minor thief who stole a DVD get the same treatment as a serial killer? Even if you want to claim he did intellectual damage (which he didn't, at least not much, if you RTFA) then that's a civil suit and should be handled as much.
Also, as to your last comment:
Piracy isn't declining, it just moved HQs.
Correlation != Causation
Last I check, Music Sales was already increasing
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Had he managed to get a finished copy rather than a pre-effects copy, his copy could have lead to pirated copies sold all over the world, with significant effects on sales and income.
His actions are not minor.
Piracy isn't declining, it just moved HQs.
Correlation != Causation
Last I check, Music Sales was already increasing
Check the numbers. Sales of music (not live, just sales of recorded music) have been on the way down pretty much since Napster days (see the Swedish numbers). Yet, so far in 2009, they are showing an 18% increase over the previous year - in the same year that TPB got legally slapped and IPRED came into effect. Seems like there is a very good correlation at work.
As for Piracy "just moving", well... it's running out of places to move to. Sweden isn't a safe haven anymore, and China isn't predictable enough. There are very, very few places left to run a torrent site without having someone legally up your butt. Ask the Minniova guys.
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But honestly, Mike isn't saying the law shouldnt be enforced. In fact, Mike never mentions that he actually stole it, it doesnt matter. He should go to jail for theft, no one is saying otherwise.
But... the FBI certainly doesnt need to get involved, and they dont need to waste funds on his speedy aprehension. They should have came out and announced that pirated copies were of poor quality, so come see it in theatres folks.
The main point is, filing suit or not, the same damage was done. IMHO, if I had a choice of sending someone to prison or not, and the results were the same no matter what, I probably wouldnt do it.
yanno
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The theft is the underlying and very significant part of this case, which Mike is specifically ignoring so that his scorn factor is a little higher.
It's the funny part: Put up to answer the question, Mike would say "no, I am against theft" in the same manner that he claims to be against piracy, yet every time there is a story involving a pirating website or individual, he always comes up on the side of the pirates. Sort of amazing, isn't it?
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Or did they download it from the internet and use the pirated copy to insert the CGI?
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Wait, I thought you said he stole a copy of the movie. Surely one copy of an unfinished movie isn't worth millions of dollars! He couldn't possibly have stolen their IP, since they still had it after he was done. I think you are confused. Or perhaps intentionally confusing the issues.
My problem with this situation isn't even that taxpayer money was used for a stupid investigation (ok I don't like that part either). My problem is that they apparently did the investigation at the behest of the movie studio. The FBI should be determining on their own where their resources should be spent, not having it told to them by corporations.
And their top priority should be figuring out why everyone blacked out for 137 seconds, and if it's going to happen again.
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Whatever work that version represented that had yet to be incorporated into the finished product might well have been worth millions. They did not have whatever unique content that particular copy had after they were deprived of it. Further, a physical copy of a limited number of copies were deprived to the owner, which undoubtedly represented some measure of hardship. Perhaps not millions, but not negligible either.
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Many convicted criminals have argued what they did was not wrong, including mass murderers, rapists, and robbers.
A person who has illegally obtained something by breaking one or more laws (possibly trespassing, possibly stealing a disc that clearly was not his, possibly other crimes that could, had he been discovered in the act, have led to his death had the owner of the private property he violated felt threatened and reacted with deadly force) I am sure is going to take the philosophical high road and explain how these crimes were just intended to be part of his "civil disobedience." Good luck with that.
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But you made me notice something, its a simple observation. All of you industry shill's and cling ons have been doing the manic "this secret I know is going to change everything dance" for a week now. So what was in the "a new day is dawning memo" that got you idiots so enthused?
Let me guess ....
1) The visit with Joe Biden.
2) ACTA staying secret until its to late.
3) The fact that your record label execs are reading the numbers wrong? piravy is actually increasing in sweden because everyone is going encrypted, and the increase in sale in sweden is because of advertising not IPRED.
Here is a secret I told here today. I want ACTA to go through. My rationale is simple. RIAA sued 30,000 people it was a public relations nightmare. $80,000 USD per song as a fine really backfired. The labels have artists speaking out against the law suits and leaving the labels over it. You have also alienated your client base with it. I cant count how often I have gone to artists sites and seen the words "F#ck RIAA" and "F#ck the record labels" in the comments from fans.
Now lets look into the future ...
1) Three strike - graduated response and someone dying because they cant call for help.
2) Jail time for an iPod full of songs.
3) Doors getting broken down over the wrong IP address.
4) Ever increasing fees for public usage of music, radio, clubs, etc.
Now the unintended consequences ...
1) Artists taking so much heat over this they leave the labels.
2) Artists not signing with the Labels because they dont want the negative vibes.
3) People finding alternative sources for music and creating communities to share info on where to find free and non ACTA/RIA/ASCAP/etc music.
4) Fans avoiding the record labels so as to not get arrested.
5) The record labels being lepers that no one want to deal with.
The same will start happening to the TV and movie studios as technology makes producing video easier and new business models begin appearing.
So act as giddy as you want its only temporary ...
I so pray that ACTA passes into law ... :)
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Re: Broke the law?
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Correct numbers
Actual cost $150M.
http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=wolverine.htm
And, of course, it lost money. Just ask Art Buchwald.
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Domestic.
$180 million is only the domestic gross.
Worldwide was $370 million.
Also Wolverine toped the charts for DVD sales and rentals apparently.
http://screencrave.com/2009-09-24/x-men-origins-wolverine-tops-dvd-charts/
It sold $68 million dollars in DVDs.
http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/WOLVE-DVD.php
And also a big big seller in the Bluray type.
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6698791.html?industryid=47213
Yep piracy destroyed sales everywhere I see it now :)
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Re: Domestic.
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Tough one
On the other hand, as a taxpayer, I hope that the FBI would prioritize it's use of resources to find more violent criminals and treats to national security. I don't think this guy made any money from putting it on the internet or used it to rape his stepchildren.
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Re: Tough one
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Need to correct the law.
If there is no harm there should be no crime.
Now where is that eraser?
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Re: Need to correct the law.
You can of course argue that copyright infringement is a victimless crime and apply the harm principle to it in that way, but not by measurement of the success of a film. In applying that measurement you admit that there was a potential for harm in the first place.
I do believe that copyright infringement in most common cases is a victimless crime, not because people are often successful despite it but because withholding your money should not be considered harmful when no exchange has taken place or contract been entered into.
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Re: Re: Need to correct the law.
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Laws based on morals.
Laws based on emotions are even worst.
They don't address practical issues and most of the time assume that we live in a perfect world.
We don't we are flawed human beings that fall and get up and try again. Most of that fools talk about 0 tolerance takes away the assumption that people learn with their mistakes.
I get mad with people all the time do I act uppon that anger?
The answer is no, if I did I probably would have been shot already because I was snipping at everybody in the streets with a sniper riffle.
The funny part is that when is the people against corporations the people have to provide detailed information of the harm done and even risk physical injure.
Remember the tabaco industry, big pharma, coal companies, oil companies they only got punished when people after risking their lifes and lively hoods proved something at great cost and it turned into a scandal, now when it comes to big business passing absurd laws to make their life easier it seems that it takes nothing more then a dinner with no risk, no proof of any harm or anything.
Hmmm...people should be mad and get angry about that stuff.
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Re: Laws based on morals.
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why do people stil goto a theatre
your evil people too then
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Re: why do people stil goto a theatre
But is a fun thing to do with my friends.
Makes it hard to stop.
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and todays intellectual award goes to
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and todays intellectual award goes to
the wolverine leaker
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Leaker - Leader
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unknown losses
OTOH, I agree that the producers have missed a chance for free advertising (if they had handled this differently) and that the FBI really should have better things to do.
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Wolverine Leaker
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Re: Wolverine Leaker
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Laws
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Re: Laws
I do think that the FBI has better things to do. Linking this to police and speeding tickets ... doesn't make sense.
Your question about speeding tickets vs lives saved is silly. Now tailgating, that is a different matter.
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Re: Laws
I once had my house burglarized and didn't call the cops at all. You know why? Because dealing with the cops is a huge, unpleasant hassle that would have gained me nothing. The burglary itself was traumatic enough -- I didn't need to compound the situation by bringing cops into the equation.
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How sad for you. I have always had very good relationships with the local police and have found the experiences to be very good. They were such a huge help in a particular situation that I gave the entire police department a pizza party in thanks for their help. It is unfortunate that your experience has been negative.
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"..Don't You Feel Safer Now?"
NOT!!!!!!!
CHEERS!! To the pirate that released the pre-release of Wolverine. A Heroes welcome! I'm SICK of the entertainment industry's lies, deception, and dogma! If they want to reduce the pirating of their products, then ADOPT A DIFFERENT BUSINESS MODEL! :p
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Re: "..Don't You Feel Safer Now?"
May I have your home address? (Sarcasm...)
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Re: Re: "..Don't You Feel Safer Now?"
yep, just like i endorsed a certain rosa parks who willfully and gleefully sat where it was clearly illegal for her to sit.
hyperbole? yes but a valid point, and quite different from your own hyperbole and fabrication:
"possibly breaking and entering",
"appears to have stolen",
"apparently stole",
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Re: Re: Re: "..Don't You Feel Safer Now?"
Rosa Parks was on a PUBLIC bus, not on someone's PRIVATE property. I too endorsed Rosa Parks. Further, I chose to sit in the back of PUBLIC buses to help support equal PUBLIC rights for all persons, as I am sure you did at the time too.
So, you have introduced hyperbole by equating the public disobedience by Rosa Parks on a public bus with the multiple furtive and criminal acts of an individual on private property. Sorry, but the two are not even close.
Some hero you have chosen. I will reserve my praise for those who actually serve a public good, like firemen, the military, and the policeman responding to your 911 call.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: "..Don't You Feel Safer Now?"
What is your source for these facts? The linked story says: "Gilberto Sanchez was arrested at his Bronx, New York home this morning and is expected to go before a magistrate judge later today on charges of violating federal copyright law."
Notice, he's not being charged with trespassing or theft, but copyright infringement. The story also says "Information on how Sanchez allegedly obtained the feature film is still yet unknown."
So it appears you are, in fact, fabricating information. Unless you have another source you can point to.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: "..Don't You Feel Safer Now?"
Clearly there was trepassing at some point. Illegal. A physical copy was taken, so the OWNER was DEPRIVED of that physical copy. These are FACTS, not FABRICATION.
What is your source for these facts? The linked story says: "Gilberto Sanchez was arrested at his Bronx, New York home this morning and is expected to go before a magistrate judge later today on charges of violating federal copyright law."
Notice, he's not being charged with trespassing or theft, but copyright infringement. The story also says "Information on how Sanchez allegedly obtained the feature film is still yet unknown."
So it appears you are, in fact, fabricating information. Unless you have another source you can point to.
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"..Don't You Feel Safer Now?"
NOT!!!!!!!
CHEERS!! To the pirate that released the pre-release of Wolverine. A Heroes welcome! I'm SICK of the entertainment industry's lies, deception, and dogma! If they want to reduce the pirating of their products, then ADOPT A DIFFERENT BUSINESS MODEL! :p
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When you die, do you get to take it with you? Or do you just desire to leave all your riches to the man aside you on your deathbed?
If you're worth anything, they will oftentimes be lawyers and people who have a vested interest in you... Dying.
What we're starting to see here is the divestiture of early boomers into businesses to strengthen their 1970s mentality, ergo into their family. Should it continue, it will be a very troubling future.
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Yes, that is apparent
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Okay that is cool
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Lets see the guy allegedly took some property from a company, which happens to be a movie company. So why did the FBI use it's resources?
Second point, just because some closed room marketing assumption about how much money a movie does not actually mean that is the true value... piracy or not.
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It used to be that the FBI became involved when the crime committed crossed state lines. However, this limitation may have been removed - it seems to be the case.
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Yeah, we get it. In one case you argue that you will just play wack a mole when trying to stop this, but then when the industry tries to go after the distributors you say you can't do that either.
You also say that the industry executives are really stupid and don't see the future, you write that Hollywood doesn't know what they are doing and if they just produced better content, they would succeed. Then you write that the movie industry had their best year ever. Which one is right? They must be doing something right.
Yeah, we get your agenda.
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The entertainment industry is saying that piracy is killing the industry and yet they are having record years and making more money than ever. Now, on top of all of that, their efforts to fight piracy are a bit like trying to hold a gallon of water without a container.
Given this, I think there is only one conclusion: piracy is having no negative impact on the entertainment industry and they are likely to be unable to stop most of it.
So, I think the logical next step is to either ignore the piracy or find a way to use it to increase profits. Spending time and money trying to fight it is apparently useless overhead and somehow embracing it it likely to make a lot of fans happy without hurting your bottom line.
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corruption much?
The fact that the FBI is even investigating and arresting him shows first hand just how corrupt things are.
The truth being if you are a multi million dollar industry you get special treatment from the authorities.
I am not even an anti capitalist or anything like that, but even I find this seriously offensive. The FBI should have stayed out of this.
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