Sing Along: Karaoke Night With 14 Songs Costs Tucson Restaurant... $49,000 In BMI Fees
from the sing-along,-everyone dept
mrharrysan was the first of a few to send in this story of a restaurant in Tucson, Arizona, that just lost a lawsuit and must pay almost $49,000 for 14 BMI songs that were played at a karaoke night held at the restaurant. It was a default judgment, as the restaurant owners apparently did not respond to the lawsuit and failed to show up. The owners claim they responded to the lawsuit, but there appears to be no evidence of that (the court never received a response). Based on this, the owners clearly deserve their share of responsibility in what appears to be a decision to ignore this. The claim that:"We answered the complaint, but they (BMI) wanted us to do ridiculous stuff. Our attorney said to take it to court and see where it goes."also doesn't make much sense. If their attorney said to take it to court, they (perhaps... just a suggestion) should have showed up in court. They now claim they'll appeal, but not showing up for the original case was a huge mistake. Separately, they claim that the karaoke night was run by a third party contractor that was "properly licensed" with BMI and ASCAP, but I'm pretty sure that is incorrect. If I remember correctly, it's the venue that needs the license, not anyone doing the entertaining.
That said, there's still plenty of ridiculousness to go around on the BMI side. BMI has been bullying anyone hosting karaoke nights for a while now, so it's got the process down. However, $49,000 for 14 songs seems ridiculous -- and anyone with any sense of reality would admit that. Not BMI. It's spokesperson, Jerry Bailey indicated to the reporter covering the story that the restaurant was lucky BMI didn't push for $30,000 per song, since it could ask for that much.
And, of course, BMI could admit that the $49,000 for 14 songs is ridiculous and agree to let the restaurant pay a smaller, but reasonable sum, and move on, but it's not doing that either. Instead, Bailey highlights how its shakedown specialists are good at collecting on these judgments:
"It's definitely about the money as well as the judgment," Bailey said. "We will take appropriate steps to secure the judgment. This is not new to us. We are experienced in this area. Our attorneys know what to do."Yes, the shakedown business is a good one, and BMI has lots of experience in it.
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Filed Under: collections, copyright, karaoke
Companies: bmi
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Fucking lawyers.
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That.
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Re:
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Another story blown out of proportion
Here is the key line from the story:
BMI filed the civil suit in July after Bailey said the organization had made 84 phone calls and sent 44 letters to the restaurant or Adobe's owners regarding the issue, without any response.
The bar owners lost a default judgement, where as they likely could have licensed up for a couple of hundred dollars. Instead, they ignored over 128 attempts to contact them AND ignored all the court related stuff.
BMI didn't ask for $49,000 for a license for 14 songs, that is nonsense. They sued for failure to license at between $750 and $30,000 per song. That isn't the license cost, that the rate they seek in the lawsuit when you fail to license (and in this case, fail to respond to over 120 attempts to be contacted).
The story would be much more complete if BMI had been asked how much the actual license would be. From what I can see, yearly license fees are about $2000 or less for this type of establishment, so a short term license might have been a couple of hundred bucks.
It's a nice try once again to smear collection and licensing organizations, but the reality is that the bar owner screwed up, and probably 48,500 out of the 49,000 is because of their stupidity, not BMI.
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Re: Another story blown out of proportion
Sadly, that is the way I read the article as well. I don't necessarily agree with all of BMI's reactions, but these owners really screwed the pooch here. You never, ever, EVER ignore a notice to appear in court. It sucks, but you go, because not going automatically screws you long term....
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Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
Agreed
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Re: Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
What BMI are doing is simply harassment and extortion. It may be legal but it isn't moral or reasonable.
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Re: Another story blown out of proportion
Owning a copyright to a song should not mean getting paid for every single use in every single instance. It should never be a right - implied or otherwise, to get something for doing nothing just because you own the copyright.
And they wonder why they are hated?
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Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
"And they wonder why they are hated"
Actually ... this is a great thing in disguse ... it increases the visibility of these collection agencies, Increases the level of fear and stress, and its one more time that massively large fine is put on display for all the public to see.
Stick
Stick
Stick
Stick
meet Carrot, Here is a business idea for someone. Build-Buy a small USB device that does stereo & surround sound, add some software for downloading and playing music from the CC catalog and charge $20-$50 USD a month. The Value added is that they can select from pre built playlists, or create their own.
291 note/entry) Small device for stereo & surround sound for use in a CC only muzak for restaurants, bars, elevators, etc.
292 note/entry) Monthly Service to supply music and playlists to organizations.
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Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
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Re: Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
You are suggesting that they should be paid again and again every time someone uses their work.
You pay the plumber once for doing the work not again and again every time you take a shower!
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Re: Another story blown out of proportion
Did you not read the post? I spent most of it talking about how the restaurant owners screwed up.
And you still get mad? The only "smearing" is your continued efforts to make it appear that I twisted a story when I did not.
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Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
Sing Along: Karaoke Night With 14 Songs Costs Tucson Restaurant... $49,000 In BMI Fees
Shouldn't it be "Failure to attend court case costs Restaurant $49,000"?
$49,000 isn't a BMI fee, it's a court settlement. BMI fees would have been in the range of a couple of hundred bucks (if even). The title alone is a horrible twist on the story that makes it look like BMI sent them a bill for $49,000, which they did not.
Come on Mike, even your bet fans around here know you are twisting this one hard.
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Re: Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
You are thinking in terms of the license, which in fact likely would have been about $2 a song. They failed to license, they failed to address the issue when contacted, and they failed to show up in court. Just showing up in court it might have been $1400 or something like that. They failed, the court ruled, and away you go.
If they had taken the step to license or address the issue along the way, your $2 price might have been right.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
Obviously not - but because they saw the opportunity for an extortionate payout they pursued it...
The point is that if (say) the BMI had collected $100 extra from the bar in error - even in culpable error - can you imagine ANY circumstances in which the bar could have got back $49K?
The problem is that these things are so unfair and one sided that no impartial observer could defend them.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
Nope. But then again, we aren't talking about an underpayment, we are talking about a total disregard for responsiblity, not even taking the time to answer 128 attempts at contact AND a court date. Had they answers BMI, I am sure the license wouldn't have been very much.
BMI isn't the bad guy here, they did what they are legally required to do, and ended up having to take it to court. The court decided the number, not BMI.
Actually, I can think of one way that BMI could end up on the hook for not returning an overpayment. Say they got over paid, and the bar owner made 128 different attempts to get repaid and had to hire a lawyer and the lawyer is VERY expensive, and they are required to make public notice, go for a seizure, etc, I could see where they might run up $48,900 of extra costs. But that would require BMI to be as ignorant as this bar owner appears to be, and miss out on at least 129 ways to get out for $100.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
This argument reminds me strongly of the MP's expenses scandal in the UK. It strikes me that you guys (BMI and defenders) just don't "get it".
Just like the MP's you cling to the argument that what you are doing is legal - and some other body (in this case the court in the MP's case the parliamentary expenses officials) are making the decisions. You just go on pushing this line and you don't realise just how bad you look to those outside your cosy little circle.
My prediction is that it will end (eventually) in the same way. The tragedy in the MP's case is that many innocent MPs have been tarred with the immorality brush and have ended up having to retire from parliament - so when the whole copyright system is dismantled because the public decides it just can't put up with it anymore so some "innocent" artists may lose out.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
No, I didn't think you would grasp the difference, which is why you make such a good shill, no 'higher cognitive functioning' to get in the way of repeating the industry party lines.
Lets take a look at why the Bar owner may not have responded:
BMI: Hey, we think you need to pay us for those people having fun in your restaurant, if you don't want something bad to happen to you.
Owner: Ignores blatant extortion attempt from industry.
Rinse and repeat. Obviously ignoring the 'court' orders was a mistake, but I can easily see why they would ignore the typical collection tactics of the 'Industry'.
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Re: Another story blown out of proportion
"The bar owners lost a default judgement, where as they likely could have licensed up for a couple of hundred dollars. Instead, they ignored over 128 attempts to contact them AND ignored all the court related stuff."
Mike clearly said it was a default judgment. Stated clearly that the restaurant owners failed to respond to the complaint[s] and failed to show up for court, and clearly said that both were big mistakes on the part of the restaurant owners.
"That isn't the license cost, that [is] the rate they seek in the lawsuit when you fail to license"
Where is a license cost mentioned in the post? Just reread the post and the answer is: nowhere. Mike is talking about the judgment amount not a license cost from BMI.
"It's a nice try once again to smear collection and licensing organizations, but the reality is that the bar owner screwed up, and probably 48,500 out of the 49,000 is because of their stupidity, not BMI."
And from reading Mike's post, it's clear the bar owners screwed up big time. How is it misinformation if everyone is coming to the same conclusion: the bar owners screwed up.
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Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
The best example:
Yes, the shakedown business is a good one, and BMI has lots of experience in it.
He can't even resist suggesting that this is a shakedown, even though it appears to be about 99% the bar owner's fault.
It's an ugly swipe at BMI, even when they are in the right. Mike just can't help himself! His conclusion says nothing about the bar owners, only that BMI is experiened in shakedowns.
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Re: Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
They are "in the right" in that they are following a law which they wrote for themselves - they are in the right like Robert Mugabe is "in the right".
In any normal case the worst that could have happened to the bar is having a few hundred dollars worth of stuff removed by bailiffs - even if they never responded to the court at all.
The ones taking an ugly swipe at the BMI are .... the BMI.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
OMFG! Did you actually think about it when you wrote it, or are you so pushed to find a flaw in a simple case that you have to go that far?
I shake my head and head off to find some paper towels to wipe up the mess.
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Re: Another story blown out of proportion
You can keep schilling, we will keep laughing at you and the collection agencies... while looking for other ways to not pay them...
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Re: Another story blown out of proportion
Yeah, because a new business doesn't have anything else going on. Sure, you can say "This is worth paying attention to because it will bankrupt you." But that only makes sense once you've already gotten past the building inspectors, the health inspectors et al.
Lo and behold! Some group that claims to own all music is shutting you down!
Fuck 'em. I've never felt better about "pirating" shit than right now.
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Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
READ THE STORY.
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Re: Re: Re: Another story blown out of proportion
READ THE STORY
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Re: Another story blown out of proportion
It really doesn't matter if BMI tried to contact these people 1,000 times, more importantly is the point that even if its $1 in a fee, its too much to charge for something as simple as playing an instrumental to a song and letting a 'common everyday joe' sing it at a microphone for entertainment. The whole thing is absurd. Karoake night Licensing Fee? FEES-FEES-FEES-TAX-TAX-TAX! Gimme a beak! Now imagine this, next they'll start TAXING us for singing their songs along with the radio! How has the artist been damaged in any way? Stop TAXING the little people already!
We need to get on to bigger and more important things! And trust me, there are far more important things that BMI could be spending legals fee money on like making donations to reputable nonprofits that are trying to change the lives of the children who are our future. Now that's worth chasing after!
Check me out at www.annaya.com
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Someone should fire off a letter to
Dear Sir
I am writing to inform you that the recent law suit filed against you by BMI can be avoided in the future. As can payments to any collection societies BMI, ASCAP, etc... Allow me a moment to explain the Creative Commons Liscense and music distributed under it ....
etc
etc
etc
Sincerely
Hephaestus
President and CEO of DireRIAA LLC
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Re: Someone should fire off a letter to
FAIL!
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Re: Re: Someone should fire off a letter to
The one thing I failed to mention was this is part of a larger plan. A business plan that includes moving artists from one collection society to another that isnt as draconian, allows fair use, and is more in line with the copyright clause of the US constitution ...
I will help you along and Cue the ...
"It cant work you need known artists ... FAIL!!" rant
That is the reason I am looking forward to ACTA, CETA, UK's digital economy Bill, being passed into law. What artists is going to want to be party to having their biggest fans Jailed, Fined, and Abused? You already are seeing artists leaving because of this, it will only get worse. All they need is a clearly defined path (Proven Business Plan) to follow and the rest of the artists will follow in droves.
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Re: Re: Re: Someone should fire off a letter to
As for the replacement business plan, I suspect it will end up back at the same place we are now: Artists wanting to get paid, collection agencies aggressively trying to collect, and a few whiny ones crying "think about the children and horrible raporists!". I suspect it's about a 10 year cycle.
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RE:Someone should fire off a letter to
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Re: RE:Someone should fire off a letter to
I would pay a cover charge to get in to see this.
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Re: Re: Re: Someone should fire off a letter to
Me??? Not at all. I'm a CC artist myself. I'm just saying that the average karaoke patron in these parts wants to sing along to the normal unimaginative top 40/classic rock fare, and a playlist of indie and forward thinking artists is not going to go over too well.
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LOL @ americans
my god, americans have gone way way too far in some areas... and one of them is inventing payment methods and reasons to pay for stuff ! karaoke. fees. rofl.
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Re: LOL @ americans
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Re: Re: LOL @ americans
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Whats next.
I agree the bar owner was a great fool if he ignored the notices but the bottom line is he should have never gotten them. It's insane to think that karaoke requires such a thing.
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Re: Whats next.
Is the bar making money off the music? Yes. This case is even more obvious, the bar is specifically using Karaoke to get people in the door. Thus, it is even more of a money source for the bar. Commercial use, pay for that use.
It's not complicated, unless you think everything should be free.
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Re: Re: Whats next.
Come on the Bar makes money off of all those things! Why pay royalties (Welfare) to one supplier and not the others? What a F'd up system we have in this world!
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Re: Re: Re: Whats next.
The pool table? Paid in full.
The dart board? Paid in full.
The shot glasses? Paid in full.
The UFC pay per view on the TV? Rights rented (if they are legal), not paid in full. Rented - unless you want to spend about 10 million for the exclusive rights.
The Karaoke music? Rented the rights, not paid in full - unless of course you want to pay $$$ per song to own all the rights.
It's not a difficult concept, provided you learn the difference between ownership and usage rights.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Whats next.
Top to bottom. With extortion going by the name "rental" :)
The karaoke box have to have paid the licenses for the music and the bar owner have to pay them again is a nice scheme like the Nigerian schemers.
There is such a thing as exhaustion of rights you know.
Double dipping is not socially accepted but some want to change that, see Europe trying to force Canada to accept the same reasoning.
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Re: Re: Whats next.
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!!!!!!!!.....
All entertainment industry stooges, worldwide, have lost touch with how music and movies and books affect the nature of society in such a personal way. By defining music, strictly as "property" or "assets" damages the relationship between society and music.
Yes. We understand that music was created by someone. And sure, they should receive credit and recognition for that. Copying CDs and handing them out for free without the creator's permission.. we understand that too.
But when you prevent the purpose of the music and the affect it has on social interaction from coming together, you harm the purpose of music. It damages society, not only as a whole, but individually as well.
The pirating of music, movies and books will never stop, nor recede until this dangerous and damaging perception comes to an end. :p
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BMI attacks more than profiteers...
Just so they know, I play my car radio loud enough for others to hear, I sing and MENTION songs in public, and on top of that the retail store I work in plays music in the background.
How come they dont sue every store in america for background music?
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Re: BMI attacks more than profiteers...
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Yeah, well,
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Re: Yeah, well,
Or are you just going to "borrow" the music online, enjoy it, and complain anyway?
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Re: Re: Yeah, well,
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Re: Re: Re: Yeah, well,
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Yeah, well,
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Re: Re: Yeah, well,
Your bias is showing again...
You seem to be accusing Glenn of piracy. Please point to where he stated he will illegally download RIAA music, rather than simply ignoring it or getting it through legal free channels such as Pandora or terrestrial radio. Please point to where he states that he even still listens to music through any means, rather than ignoring it and spending his cash on other forms of entertainment.
Otherwise, try to stop projecting. It's pathetic.
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Re: Re: Re: Yeah, well,
Using legal channels (such as radio, Pandora) still means that the RIAA gets paid, because he is paying those stations in various ways (by listening to commercials, example, or paying a subscription fee).
If he really wants to say f--k the RIAA, then he needs to stop listening to commercial music altogether, and listen only to unsigned bands that he downloads from sites that don't pay the RIAA. He needs to dump all his mp3s, empty out his ipod, and start over from zero. That is the only way you get away, otherwise you are complaining but still enjoying the product. The only way he could do that is by "borrowing" music from someone else, you know P2P?
Either he's a man and stands up for what he says, or backs down and admits he likes the RIAA product, he uses it every day, and would feel something missing without it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Yeah, well,
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yeah, well,
Go for it. try to live without music. Tell them to turn it off!
Remember, tin foil is in aisle 6. Get the good stuff, the cheap stuff doesn't work right.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yeah, well,
ps: Not mocking you just remember the somebody from the copyright camp said piracy harms corn :)
People should really start looking for legal alternatives and use their power to their advantage.
Any music no licensed with a CC Commons share a like 3.0 should be discarded.
Sooner or latter they will be coming begging for us to listen to their music and will have to license it accordingly.
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Re: Re: Yeah, well,
now there's a good idea... why don't they charge a "fee" every time someone buys a radio. I'm sure mister shill there would love that.
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BMI doing gods work
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More old news?
And yes, in some instances the fees appear logically out of whack, depending on the business model.
But there are also plenty of cases of arrogant bar, restaurant and club owners who think they should be permitted to do anything they want.
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We answered the complaint, but they (BMI) wanted us to do ridiculous stuff
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It wasn't about karaoke
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sing 3 songs and you lose your larynx
Sing three songs and you will lose your larynx (voice box).
If the bartender ever showed up, the court would've declared it as "fair use".
I say we Boycott and shun technology and live like the Amish.
At least by now, the "private acts of infringement" is not included in ACTA.
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