Judges Allowed To Use Google To 'Confirm Intuition' In Cases
from the well,-there's-that dept
One of the more controversial posts we've had recently concerned the discussion about whether or not jurors should be allowed to use the internet to do research related to a case they are hearing. It seems like most folks here were very much against it, though I think it's something worth exploring in more detail. But, let's take this question a few steps across the courtroom. What about judges? In a recent appeals court ruling, it was found that it's okay for a judge to use Google to "confirm his intuition."The case involved a bank robber, and a question over whether or not he violated the terms of his release by (you guessed it) robbing another bank. There was a question over what the robber wore that resulted in the Googling:
Chin reviewed several pieces of evidence, including a bank surveillance video showing a robber who wore a yellow rain hat. A yellow rain hat was found in the garage of [Anthony] Bari's landlord.While that single point seems to favor the suspect, in providing some bit of reasonable doubt that the yellow rain hat alone proves who it was, the judge, Denny Chin, felt that there was enough overall evidence, and sentenced the guy to three years in jail. However, because of that Google search, Bari appealed, saying this violated federal rules of evidence. However, the appeals court had no problem with it:
Noting similarities between the hats, Chin at a hearing said he resorted to Google Inc's search engine for help. "We did a Google search," and "one can Google yellow rain hats and find lots of different yellow rain hats," he said.
In its decision, the appeals court said most federal evidence rules "do not apply with their full force" in proceedings to revoke supervised releases.I'm curious to see if the same people, who were horrified at my suggestion that Google searches for juries might not be such a horrible thing, feel the same way in the case of a judge. Because one of the key points raised in the discussion here was that "rules of evidence" were concrete and could never be messed with -- and even suggesting that the concept might be due for an update was pure blasphemy. Yet, here it seems that an appeals court recognizes that modern technology may change how rules of evidence can work.
Using this "relaxed" standard, it endorsed Chin's effort to confirm his "common sense supposition" that more than one yellow rain hat is available for sale.
But it went further, saying improved broadband speeds and Internet search engines cut the cost of confirming intuitions.
The court said that 20 years ago. "a trial judge may have needed to travel to a local department store to survey the rain hats on offer.
"Today, however, a judge need only take a few moments to confirm his intuition by conducting a basic Internet search," it added. "As the cost of confirming one's intuition decreases, we would expect to see more judges doing just that."
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Filed Under: evidence, google, intuition, judges
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Mike, I've said this before I'll say it again. In our legal system both sides present evidence. The jury looks at the evidence as presented and makes a finding of fact based upon that evidence.
If the jury is lacking some information and needs to do research, that only means that one of the parties failed in his burden and loses the case.
Just give me one legally valid instance where a jury would have a need to do research?
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And I'm sure some people think it's unfair. That only if the jury could do its own research trials would be much more fair.
But can you imagine a medical malpractice trial if the jury could ignore the expert medical evidence as presented by both sides and rely on the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard? Would that be fair? Mike seems to think so.
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I've worked with juries for a little over a decade. Overwhelmingly they do follow their duty to rule only upon the evidence presented. I can only think of one case where a juror ruled based upon her own research, and for that we had a hearing where she admitted she did her own research, and she served a weekend in jail.
Under Mike's argument jurors would not be bound by any evidence and could do anything they wanted. And as I've explained, that would lead to much more unfairness.
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If that's the case, then wouldn't we need to get rid of jury trials altogether?
No one should ever lose a court case because the jury couldn't do a google search to get additional factual information that a lawyer did not anticipate affecting their decision.
That would make our legal system a farce.
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God, I'm repeating myself again and again.
If you're right that jurors should be allowed to do their own research, then verdicts would become less fair. As I've said, we have centuries of laws on the books dealing with evidence in an attempt to make sure trials are fair.
If juror could do their own independent research their verdicts could be highly unfair and legally valid. For example, a juror sitting on criminal trial against a black person could rely on research that black people are born criminals. Would that be fair? Under your system, it would be. Under our present system, it could happen, but at least it would be a basis for a new trial. The unfairness could corrected.
"No one should ever lose a court case because the jury couldn't do a google search to get additional factual information that a lawyer did not anticipate affecting their decision"
You simply have no idea how cases and trials operate. They take years to get to trial where evidence is requested and exchanged, depositions are taken, and motions to dismiss are filed.
Please give me one case, just one case, where a person was denied a fair trial because the jury could not research an issue. If you think we should throw out our current system, where there are laws in place to ensure the evidence is fair, and replace it with a system were jurors can rely on any evidence they want, please give me a valid reason for this change. I don't see it.
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Never been selected, so can't answer your question directly. But the fact that I never was is probably telling.
I just amused myself by anticipating the defense's objections before they voiced them. Voir Dire is an insult.
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I've always wanted to serve, but I figured if I didn't the quickest ticket out would be to mention Jury Nullification at some point.
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As this post points out one of the liabilities of letting a lone [legally well informed] judge decide a case can be, he may have read something that will bias his opinion if he is legally 'on the fence'.
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Example against...
In a case of mistaken identity, a person is arrested for a robbery they did not commit. An officer goes over the line and improperly coerces a confession after 16 hours of interrogation. This confession is leaked to a blog which is then picked up by multiple blogs following the story. The defense attorney gets the confession supressed. Trial starts.
At this point, the confession will NOT be a part of the evidence presented, but WILL show up in Google results. To allow jurors to perform searches unsupervised would allow evidence that should not be allowed.
Do you think this is fair?
Now, that being said, I'm curious what recourse a juror has when they DO have questions that were not answered at trial? What if they wanted a witness to clarify a statement because it was expressed in a way they didn't understand (something my kids do constantly)?
There are two sides to this and I really don't think it's possible to set any clear and hard rules on the matter.
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I never said a jury cannot ignore the evidence presented. What I said is that they have to base their verdict on the evidence presented. There's a difference.
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I can't help thinking that the average (I guess in this particular case, I mean 'every') juror would NEED outside knowledge of some sort in order to evaluate whether or not one of the "experts" is more trustworthy than the other. Otherwise, you are left to evaluations based on charisma or some other less-than-desirable characteristic.
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Your scenario does point out one of the risks of using experts. However, both sides have equal opportunity, right? Each is permitted to choose experts and to choose WHICH experts it wants to use. The moral of the story is to choose well.
In real life, cases can be heavily influenced by expert witnesses. Juries will balance credibility and coherency and the team with the better experts will get jury points. But, again, both the prosecution and the defense have the opportunity to challenge expert witnesses and ask questions. When someone is reading a Wikipedia article about guns, stabbings or explosives, all because of what they are hearing in a trial, who does the prosecution or the defense cross-examine? Certainly not the juror.
Allowing juries to go out and do their own research leads to drawing their own conclusions independent of cross-examination and the ability to explain things in context. I, for one would not want to be on either side in that trial. There is no way to know which way the trial will go.
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And if a party fails to prove its case, it is not being punished. It simply lost. Why should someone win a case who failed to prove their case? That makes no sense.
Because nobody gives a shit whether a lawyer proved his case or not, they care that justice was served. The question is whether justice is better served on a macroscopic scale by allowing juries to be better informed via internet access. This can certainly be debated, but you seem incredibly insistent that the justice system should refuse to adapt to change at all even if that change may be beneficial.
What if the record labels decided to refuse to adapt to change because "the way consumers listen to music is by buying a plastic CD for $15. Period!" Oh wait, they do do it that way.
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Of course, if it's a medical case, the lawyer with the weaker argument would dis-allow any juror with a medical background from getting past the selection process.
That's how the system is rigged. As more people believe it is rigged they will obtain information on their own, irregardless of the court's instruction. They figure they won't get caught, and they're doing their public duty by being informed in order to make an informed judgment.
Not like it all you want.
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The question is whether justice is better served by punishing a party for failing their burden in the courtroom, or by getting an outcome that's more congruent with the happenings that are in dispute.
You're clearly in the camp that the courtroom matters more than the underlying case, which is your prerogative. But I hope you can see how that prejudices you so you'll just see any situations someone posts as further confirmation of your already-held belief.
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Under Mike's argument, that promise would no longer exist. The jury would be free to use any "evidence" it feels appropriate to help them. As I've pointed out above, it could lead to highly unfair proceedings.
I work in a court day after day. If a jury has a question about medical terminology, that can be answered.
And if a party fails to prove its case, it is not being punished. It simply lost. Why should someone win a case who failed to prove their case? That makes no sense.
Judge: Jury, have you reached a verdict?
Jury foreperson: Yes your honor. Despite the fact that the plaintiff presented no evidence and did nothing but drool on the table, we award her 2 trillion dollars based upon our research into the existence of fairies.
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Because in Englad, the jury can ask questions, ask for additional investigation, evidence, etc.
Which is SO much better, in my humble opinion.
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In theory, the jury is only supposed to make a determination based on the facts as they were known at the time of the trial. If the prosecution has not provided "additional investigation," then having the jury be their proxy is unfair to the defendant.
If the defendant has not performed "additional investigation," then the attorney may be incompetent OR, big OR here, the defense attorney may already know the answer to the "additional investigation" but feels it is in the best interest of his client to not present "additional investigation."
The same with "evidence." In theory, the best available evidence will be presented at trial. How could you ask for better evidence than that which is already presented by the sides with the best interest in presenting the best available evidence?
While I am fine with juries asking questions, when the jury veers from their prescribed duties to serve as investigators and demanding evidence (including evidence that might be prejudicial or have no probative value), then the jury is no longer a jury and may have lost whatever impartiality they may have had.
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They can. I've been a lawyer working for a court for over a decade. I have not seen a single case where a jury didn't ask a question.
Of course Mike and Rose M. Welch want them to ask questions and perform research independently of the court system, even though they do no such thing in "Englad."
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I gotta challenge you on what could be a key point here (insert sarcmark, of course). How do YOU know what they do in Englad? Have you ever been to Englad? Hell, I have never even HEARD of Englad, much less been there.
So, unless you know something I do not, I hereby declare you incapable of rendering factual information regarding Englad.
Now, if we want to talk about England, I might grant your expertise.
Heh, heh...Sorry. I had to milk that one some more.
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Further, American juries and English juries have different rights and responsibilities. If you're even a half-assed attorney, you know that. Don't pretend it isn't true just because you think it might make your opinion look a little weaker.
And last, but certainly not least, juries sit trials without asking questions frequently. It's possible that you have a well-educated pool of jurors where you're at, or that your court makes sure that jurors understand their rights as jurors, but that certainly doesn't make it true everyone, or anywhere but where you are.
Yes, the common law system that the US uses is much older than two centuries, but the rights of American jurors are different than the rights of the system that our courts originated from. Therefore, the practices of our jurors cannot be more than two centuries old, and are probably less, since it took a bit to work the system out to where we are now.
Quit being an asshat, Ima. People will be more willing to listen to you if you stick to making legitimate points, instead of just trying to score them.
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I was going to let this slide, but just I have to comment on this.
The common law system the US uses is much older than two centuries. Why do you guys (and gals) feel a need to comment on topics you know absolutely nothing about?!
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Ya...its a big deal. As to how much we know...doesn't it bother you that citizens aren't privy to the knowledge of how their own government works?
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The issue with what you state is that most people do not have the time or patience to learn about every single subject they are interested in. Ok, that's understandable. I also would not want to discuss some things with those people because they wouldn't have an inkling of what is going on around them. However, I don't completely feel that such is the case on this site (certainly, there are those people that seem clueless, but I have long felt that most people here at least grasp reality somewhat).
It still bothers me that even those of us who do take time to research the things we care about so that we aren't completely in the dark still don't know enough to be considered knowledgeable about the system...and those that don't take the time are just plain screwed.
Somehow, I am still under the impression that this system was never intended to work out this way. It was intended for the common man (ahem...wealthy, "landed", middle-class, if not upper-class man) to understand and be able to deal with this type of thing. The fact that many still do not is where I am a bit concerned...truth be told. The government system was never designed to be a true democracy (lower-class citizens were never really intended to be voters in its original context...something that has completely changed the way that the system now works), yet, we wield it as if it were.
No, I will be the first to admit that I do not know all the nuances of every stinking law out there, but I do know enough to get by. Yet, that 'enough' is, seemingly, not enough...
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Quit being an asshat, Ima. People will be more willing to listen to you if you stick to making legitimate points, instead of just trying to score them.
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Seems to me the issue is the type of question that the jury can ask.
If a juror happens to have foreknowledge that a particular person's testimony is widely disputed, it would then by OK for a juror to ask the person to clarify why so many disagree with them? On the other hand, if they get that knowledge after the trial has started, it's somehow not as valid?
I can see where it's good to avoid outside opinion on a particular case. But that not the same as looking up widely accepted facts on the subject matter. In the medical example, a juror looking something up in a medical textbook should not invalidate his/her opinion as a juror.
I think that is what Mike is referring to, not judgment by the court of opinion.
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Medical terminology is usually not a fact in dispute, but is simply a fact. So you're right, juries can ask that sort of stuff. We've given juries dictionaries, maps, and calculators before to help them reach verdicts. Once again, those types of facts are not in dispute.
"If a juror happens to have foreknowledge that a particular person's testimony is widely disputed..."
In the real world I'd think that if the juror had such knowledge, he'd never be allowed on the jury. If he is allowed to deliberate, he's allowed to take his common sense and experience with him.
"In the medical example, a juror looking something up in a medical textbook should not invalidate his/her opinion as a juror. I think that is what Mike is referring to, not judgment by the court of opinion"
If that is what Mike is arguing, he's not making it very clear. His argument as presented again and again is that jurors should be allowed to research the facts in controversy in the case.
But even if he is talking about researching facts that are not in dispute, the jury should still do that via processes that are already in place.
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If that is what Mike is arguing, he's not making it very clear."
Why should he need to? I have never seen Mike post ANYTHING implicating internet [mob] opinion should rule in legality. He does that for issues with an economic vs. legal clash, his point being, 'it's an uphill battle that's likely not winnable'.
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Why should Mike make his arguments clear? So we better understand them.
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The argument has been made that no juror needs to do research. But what if they want to anyway? That's the issue.
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If they want, they can wait until they leave the deliberation room or until the trial is done.
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GASP! But how can law and justice overlap?? Blasphemy.
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He had to look?
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Anyway, at the hearing on the record this Judge looks up the appellant's facebook and myspace accounts. He'll find pictures of them drinking, hanging out with people drinking, or comments about how they were "so shit faced drunk last saturday, dude."
I think it's hilarious. The attorneys are not happy with it.
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If the license was taken because of drunk driving, the answer to your question is a big fricken yes.
The person attempting to get his license back will claim before the ALJ that he's no longer drinking and no longer associating with his old drinking buddies. Which is why the ALJ's research is so damn funny!
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If you're convicted of drunk driving, yes, they can take your license. Not forever. For a year. Your state's laws and regulations may be different.
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You can appeal those ALJ decision to a higher court, but you're faced with the same situation. No one wants to be responsible for the guy getting his license back and then getting in serious accident.
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If you are still whooping it up and being a jackass in your attitude (online or elsewhere), you aren't displaying decent judgement.
Why on earth should a judge be giving back a license to someone who needs to be hit by a clue train, not hurling 2 tonnes of metal down a road?
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Brilliant!
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If you're that dumb, possible you should lose your license forever... :P
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That seems the exact opposite of common sense. If there were, in fact, only one type of yellow rain hat, isn't it *more* likely to be a case of mistaken identity? The more unique the hats are, the more a similarity is damning. I would think.
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Judge Chin using Google - irony
On the main point, I have three concerns.
- a Judge is not an expert in independent research. The likelihood that an overworked Judge will miss something in a cursory online search must be higher than relevant evidence being missed by prosecution and defence whose job it is to uncover whatever they can
- because the evidence that the Judge is therefore taking into account is hidden, there is no way the parties can see and provide argument on whether that evidence is relevant or, worse still, is being used by the Judge to confirm his or her undisclosed prejudices
- Worst of all, there is no way of the parties to debate the weight that should be given to that evidence. One hopes that a Googling Judge looking at the results does not place a great deal of weight on a wikipedia entry but who knows if they do not tell anyone.
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This will be moot anyway
It turns out that criminal behavior, indeed all 'thrill-seeking' behavior including drugs, escapes, and perversion, is merely a pheromone deficiency. It is easier to cure than boiling water and costs virtually nothing. The pheromone is the grease on the male judge's nose, forehead, chin, cheeks, and you just wipe it with any food (we use chewing gum) to collect it. 150 mg of the oil can be collected with 3 ordinary packs of new fresh chewing gum. Unwrap, rub the pieces directly on the older man's skin, re-wrap and label 'home remedy--not for sale'. Then give the gum to the delinquent/runaway/drug addict/homosexual and viola! They're cured instantly. There is no processing needed (unlike vitamins), and all you need is an older man to donate a little face grease.
We are going to close the prisons, close the police departments, and end the 'criminal justice system' as we know it.
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Matter of Opinion
From reading your post and not the actual court decision, I would say the appellate court simply looked at the fact that judges determine whether evidence is admissible or not and the the effect of his going to check out the hats was the same as asking the attorneys for the information. Judges get to determine whether or not evidence is presented juries do not. Also the court said that the level of evidence that is applied in this type of hearing is not the same as that in an original trial. Real trials are a lot more boring than the ones in fiction.
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There are good reasons why jurors are not supposed to read newspapers or watch the news or discuss the case outside the courtroom, they do not need the influence of speculating news stories and internet instant stories
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Not a good idea..
In general the concept of reading a robots recommendations about what is prudent to an individual is fundamentally flawed.
-- IMO
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and dont forget one issue that i have not seen anyone mention (sorry if you did & i didnt catch it) is that a jury, during deliberations is allowed to ask for clarification and additional instruction from the judge. it would be at that point that asking questions regarding any such research should be brought up and handled as a case by case basis on the merits of the question, the need for such research and its ability to withstand legal scrutiny during appeal within current law. if at that point a judge says yeah cool go for it, ok then you have a reasonable means to allow for it.
but to just have a blanket statement saying there is no reason for it does not work. there are many good reasons why rules of evidence exist and tossing them out simply because some people dont see those reasons are a very bad idea.
as far as judges go, they should be held to the same rules of evidence as with any case. in this particular issue, the appeals court says that the actions of the judge were no different than had he gone to a store to look at the items themselves which is correct. all he did was use a faster method that saved time and money to accomplish the same thing as getting in a car and driving to the store would have done. so yes, in that situation using a search engine would be fine.
two very different issues with two very different sets of rules.
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I also disagree that everything should rest on the attorneys. Attorneys are not perfect, and they can miss things just like everyone else. If a jury can ask a few questions and the information helps the jury make their decision, I'm all for it.
Right now, the prosecutor tries hard to make sure that the jury has information that leads them to a guilty verdict. The defendant's attorney tries hard to make sure that the jury has any and all information that might help them reach a more favorable verdict. In the middle of those two, there is more than enough room for facts to slip through, as we all know.
If asking for additional research helps the jury reach a just verdict, then everyone should be in favor of it. That's the point, you know. Making sure that juries have all of the legally-obtained information they need to make their decision.
Anyway...
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Anyway I see no need to let jurors google or bing stuff. Way too easy to NOT hear the actual evidence presented, plus (as has been said repeatedly) they promised to make their decision based on the evidence presented in court. So - duh - do that! In the case of an appeals judge using a search engine to gain extra info: yeah cool go for it.
By the way we should probably do away with the "jury by peers" thing but that is unrelated
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CSI
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The question is whether justice is better served by punishing a party for failing their burden in the courtroom, or by getting an outcome that's more congruent with the happenings that are in dispute.
You're clearly in the camp that the courtroom matters more than the underlying case, which is your prerogative. But I hope you can see how that prejudices you so you'll just see any situations someone posts as further confirmation of your already-held belief.
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