Jury Dumps Patent Used To Sue Facebook
from the took-long-enough dept
Nearly two years ago, we wrote about a company, called Leader Technologies with an incredibly broad patent (7,139,761) that covered associating a piece of data with multiple categories, that was suing Facebook for infringement. Our usual group of patent system defenders rushed to the comments to quickly declare that I was an idiot for daring to question this patent. The case took a weird turn when the court actually ordered Facebook to hand over its source code. We were confused as to how this made sense. Since the lawsuit was about patents, not copyright, the specific source code shouldn't really matter.Either way, it looks like the jury in the case seemed to agree with me about the quality of the patent. The jury has declared the patent invalid. Clearly, the only explanation is that the jury was also made up of idiots. Next time, Leader Technologies should file the lawsuit in East Texas where they know how to make juries, rather than Delaware.
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Filed Under: database, patents
Companies: facebook, leader technologies
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OR just not file stupid patent lawsuits
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Re: OR just not file stupid patent lawsuits
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Re: Re: OR just not file stupid patent lawsuits
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Re: Re: Re: OR just not file stupid patent lawsuits
The argument that Facebook in any way benefited from this patent or the patent holder is no more valid than the argument that steam engine competitors somehow benefited from the patents that enabled others to sue them for infringement. Patents are supposed to promote the progress and I'm just not seeing how these patents did anything to promote the progress of anything but frivolous lawsuits.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: OR just not file stupid patent lawsuits
You should see how this played out over the last 10 years. The company founder has gone full tin-foil-hat crazy, claiming that the CIA, Obama, Hillary, and the entire tech world conspired to steal his patent and rule the planet with it. His blog is an unbelievable journey into the mind of a madman obsessed with the idea that he invented something that rivals the light bulb. You won't believe how deep down the rabbit hole he has gone after losing this case.
americans4innovation.blogspot.com
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Re: Re: OR just not file stupid patent lawsuits
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-sarc- Yeah we would all miss farmville -/sarc-
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Darn It
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Even idiots get lucky sometimes
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Surprised and disappointed
The patent was invalidated due to commercial activity by Leader, which has nothing to do with the quality of the patent.
I expect better reporting from you.
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Re: Surprised and disappointed
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Contrary to what you state, no one rushed out at that time and insinuated you were an "idiot". You were, however, criticized for declaring the claimed invention "obvious" without having invested any effort to secure any facts pertinent to your conclusion.
If anything, the jury verdict here (the case is still with the judge for further proceedings) should give you pause for concern and thoughtful reflection the next time you decide to go on an "its obvious" binge.
Not having been in the courtroom when the jury's verdict was read, I can only rely on news accounts from services such as Reuters, AP, etc. Apparently, the jury rendered a split verdict.
In the first part of its verdict it held that the claimed invention was not obvious, and that the defendant infringed all of the patent's claims.
In the second part of its verdict it held that certain commercial activities by the plaintiff prior to filing the initial application rendered the patent invalid. Thus, the proclamation made here two years ago that "its obvious" did not find a receptive audience with the jury.
BTW, the reference in the news reports to "commercial activities" suggests to me that the plaintiff likely had the claimed invention in public use or on sale more than one year before the initial application was filed, creating what is referred to as a "statutory bar" under 35 UC 102. Even if an invention is new, useful, and non-obvious, the patent law nevertheless does contain other provisions that can defeat any subsequently issued patent should it later be asserted against a third party. This appears to be what the jury decided has happened here.
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Are You The Same Cowardly Anonymous?
Contrary to what you state, no one rushed out at that time and insinuated you were an "idiot".
Well, you have to admit angry dude’s usual verbal diarrhoea did indeed call his competence into question:
AD, where are you now, you coward?
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Re: Are You The Same Cowardly Anonymous?
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Re: Re: (competence of the jury)
Then why do they allow jury trial in the US for such complex cases anyway? As opposed to a three-judge panel that is in some countries even specialised in patent law.
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Re: Re: Re: (competence of the jury)
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Re: Re:
Assuming your comment was not sarcasm .... it implys you do not understand the jury selection process in the US. This process usually removes any experts from the jury pool. For example, laywers are usually removed from any case and doctors are removed from cases involving the medical field, etc. So, yeah, you are probably correct but it was done intentionally. I still do not understand how this provides a better trial, it borders upon jury rigging.
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BTW, the reference in the news reports to "commercial activities" suggests to me that the plaintiff likely had the claimed invention in public use or on sale more than one year before the initial application was filed, creating what is referred to as a "statutory bar" under 35 UC 102.
This may be correct; an earlier opinion issued in this case indicates that Facebook was alleging that:
"...the McKibben deposition establishes that more than one year prior to the filing of U.S. Patent Application No. 101732,744 (the "'744 Application), Leader offered to sell the Leader2Leader product to at least three third parties."
(It seems to me that the '744 application became the '761 patent, which is at issue here - although this isn't fully clear from the ruling).
~ ~ ~ ~
The case took a weird turn when the court actually ordered Facebook to hand over its source code. We were confused as to how this made sense. Since the lawsuit was about patents, not copyright, the specific source code shouldn't really matter.
This isn't really that unusual, and I don't understand why it would be confusing. Compiled software is like a machine encased in a black box: you can observe how it responds to particular inputs by generating certain outputs, but you cannot always deduce from this the mechanism. The source code discloses the mechanism: the inner-workings of the machine.
Saying that you necessarily don't need source code to determine software patent infringement is like saying that you necessarily don't need to open the hood of a car to determine automotive patent infringement, even if the patent covers some aspect of the engine or the carburetor.
Patents are supposed to disclose enough about an invention that one of ordinary skill in the art could practice it. That is, if I patent a mechanism that is implementable in software, I have to explain how someone like a programmer could implement it. I cannot always explain that in sufficient detail by only talking about inputs and outputs. Often I have to disclose the specific steps. Consider a claim from the RSA patent, a classic algorithm patent:
Given just a binary black box, it is difficult or impossible to tell whether this is what is actually going on. If the software takes the exact same inputs and produces the exact same outputs, but through some novel mechanism, then that software is not necessarily covered by the patent unless, for example, it is found equivalent under the Doctrine of Equivalents.
The source code is sometimes really necessary to understand whether the mechanism of the software is the same as, or equivalent to, the mechanism claimed in the patent. When this is the case the court can order the software disclosed under very, very restrictive conditions to make this determination.
Finding infringement can be a technical and subtle process: you must show that each and every element of the claim is found in the infringing product. You cannot, as many patent detractors fantasize, just take a sidelong glance at the product and the patent and go "yep, infringes!" or "nope, doesn't infringe!"
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Re: Re: Too mired
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Facebook launched in 2004, the patent filing seems to have occurred in 2003 (there are a whole lot of different little things like 'continuation patents' that can affect when patent protection begins, so you can't always just look at the date and make a determination, but generally the filing date is a good assumption).
Even if Facebook's launch predated the patent, maybe they did not start using the patented technology until after their launch. You'd have to look at the details of the case.
I think this is a non-sense issue and the jury is asking for the source code when the issue is the patent. That really doesn't make any sense.
I'm sorry, where did you get the impression that it was the jury that was asking for the source code? It's much more likely that the experts in the case were the ones examining the source code to make a judgment and render expert testimony about whether Facebook's software does or does not infringe the patent. It's possible that the jury has seen little or none of the code itself - they are likely using expert testimony as evidence of what the software does or does not do.
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[citation needed]
Seriously, citation needed. Please identify the "group of patent system defenders" who I assume are more than three people who defend patents regularly. Please then show where this group, or some majority of it, declared you were an idiot. Please find where the word 'idiot' was used in this context explicitly.
Bonus points for demonstrating that they are some kind of organized group. Is it OK for your detractors to now base their arguments on what "bloggers" are saying? Bloggers are a group that, right? It's even a group of which you're a member!
What's most amusing is that this accusation is coming from someone who gets defensive in the extreme whenever he feels that he's been accused of saying something he didn't say explicitly (even if it was strongly implied). From the Masnick file:
"I have never called anyone an idiot. I have called an idea they have put forth idiotic, after said idea was debunked and then they still stand by it without providing any data or evidence to back it up. And I only do so rarely."
"Again, McBeese, I never called you a moron. But, once again, you do seem to play fast and loose with both logic and the facts."
"I don't believe I've ever refereed to anyone or corporation as being "evil" and don't think anyone really think anyone we talk about is stupid or evil. Misguided and uninformed, perhaps. But that's different."
When else have we seen somebody get all the facts wrong and make confusing accusations against a large and nebulous group of people? Oh, right, just recently with Paul Williams from ASCAP. But I guess this sort of thing is only not OK when HE does it.
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Re:
The fact that it is obvious and been in use for decades hasn't stopped them in the past and probably will not stop them in the future. This will continue to be a major problem for business in the US.
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Too Soon To Crow
Most certainly, Delaware is well known for it's bias in favor of big corporate interests so if Mike was smart he would not crow until after the appeals process is complete.
Patents are a great equalizer which allows inventive upstart start up companies to take on and win against big companies, something which it appears a number of your clients have learned the hard way.
Ronald J. Riley,
Speaking only on my own behalf.
President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
President - Alliance for American Innovation
Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
Washington, DC
Direct (810) 597-0194 - (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST.
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Re: Too Soon To Crow
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Much less mom& pop basement inventors. Good luck winning something without going broke first. Have fun with patents.
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