Everyone Has Something To Hide: Why Privacy Is Important Even If 'You've Done Nothing Wrong'

from the reality-check dept

Wed, Aug 4th 2010 5:50pm — Mike Masnick

It's really amazing that people still trot out the "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide" argument these days. The argument has been debunked so many times, there's even a scholarly paper debunking it. However, it's still quite popular, especially among law enforcement types. So it's nice to see that some are trying to focus in on disproving this troubling claim. Reporter Barton Gellman is apparently starting up a new blog (oddly, it's not at all clear where that blog is, or if it's just a sub-segment of an existing blog) to focus in on this issue. In the introductory post he summarizes the point nicely:

Everyone has something to hide. Privacy is relational. It depends on the audience. You don't want your employer to know you're job hunting. You don't spill all about your love life to your mom, or your kids. You don't tell trade secrets to your rivals. We don't expose ourselves indiscriminately, and we care enough about exposure to lie as a matter of course. Among upstanding citizens, researchers have consistently found that lying is "an everyday social interaction" (twice a day among college students, once a day in the Real World). Remember the disasters that befell Jim Carrey in that movie plot that left him magically unable to fib for even one day? Comprehensive transparency is a nightmare.

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Filed Under: privacy, something to hide

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Rooker, 4 Aug 2010 @ 6:08pm

Privilege
It comes down to privilege. Person A, who is almost certainly white, male, straight and Christian, cannot comprehend why anyone would worry about people snooping into their private affairs, because it doesn't affect Person A personally. Nothing in Person A's lifestyle has any stigma attached to it, so he thinks he has nothing to hide.

Person B is black, female, gay and atheist and understands *exactly* why privacy is important.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Aug 2010 @ 6:16pm

I'm shocked.

(OMG kitteh)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mljD_hcfiD0
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sehlat (profile), 4 Aug 2010 @ 6:25pm

What makes THIS story so significant?
AT&T Sued for Revealing Police Chief's Phone(techdirt)
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Aug 2010 @ 6:26pm

Re: Privilege
Just one of those stigmas is exhausting, I can't imagine the full complement
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PRMan, 4 Aug 2010 @ 6:31pm

Re: Privilege
Actually, as a Person A that has read Revelation, I would say that Person A has much to worry about, because they are expecting problems shortly...
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Keven Sutton (profile), 4 Aug 2010 @ 6:34pm

Re: Privilege
Until person A considers all the fetish porn on their hard drive, or the money that they are hiding from the IRS, or the recent affair that their wife had, or just the fact that their kid is failing several classes in school.

The understanding of the necessity privacy is not exclusive to race, sexual preference, or religious view point. It has everything to do with shame or pride. I seriously doubt that there is a person on earth who has nothing that they are ashamed of. It's mostly a matter of pointing this out to people and reminding them that "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." which is still a good quote, despite it's often overuse.
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ChurchHatesTucker (profile), 4 Aug 2010 @ 6:37pm

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!*
“If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him”

--Cardinal Richelieu

*Yeah, he was French. I know.
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ofb2632 (profile), 4 Aug 2010 @ 6:57pm

I like privacy because what i do is nobody else's business.
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Rob, 4 Aug 2010 @ 7:03pm

The Flaw Here...
... is that when people say "I don't care, I have nothing to hide," they're speaking about governmental eavesdropping. The relational nature of privacy isn't the best argument against this, because your relationship to the eavesdropper is known.

For example, TSA body-scans me-- I allow it because I like traveling, but society allows this because TSA security are authoritative and entrusted with a silver-surfer polaroid of my body.

Another example. When you go to the doctor, you would reveal your entire naked body despite feeling uncomfortable doing so with any human being because you believe that the value of the hernia exam is worth the trade off.

In other words "I have nothing to hide" is much more than "comprehensive transparency" as outlined above. To say it is creates a strawman of the issue and helps no one.

Solove's article makes a more interesting point later on (if I remember anyway) when he talks about information-control models. (I have privacy filters on Facebook because I don't want my boss seeing naked photos of me-- I want to control that information. Nevermind that I don't and that picture was actually printed out and taped to the bulletin board at work today...).

The real threat in giving up privacy is that in the best of circumstances, I can know how my information is being used today or yesterday and consent on those terms; however, the terms could change in the future, and I will have no recourse to say "I don't want my information to be used that way".
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Blamer .. (profile), 4 Aug 2010 @ 7:05pm

Also my iPhone happened to snap Person A's nose zit in a crowd shot at the world cup last year, and what sounds like a racist rant from when he bum-dialed me during his play reshearsal back in '07. Just sayin'.
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out_of_the_blue, 4 Aug 2010 @ 7:09pm

Worry about the next stage, where accusation = imprisonment.
Notice that I don't say "= guilt", because that'd still imply some sort of sanity and limits and that you might escape because nothing can be proven. The gov't has already instilled a climate of fear, part of which is deliberately letting us know that they're spying on us. They have labels of "terrorist" and "enemy combatant" that remove all humanity and sympathy from those so accused, and anyone who objects to this utter lawlessness by public employees is labeled a "terrorist supporter". So the next step -- a *very* short one -- is that mere *arbitrary* accusation (from a network of paid informers or a cop that you talk back to) will result in imprisonment, no charge, no attorney, no hope of avoiding it, not even the status of human, *just* a prisoner.

A Russian "joke" paraphrased from Solzhenitsin (? spelling), "One day in the life of Ivan Denisovich":

"What did you do to get twenty years, comrade?"

"Nothing."

"Nothing? You must have done something. For nothing you get only ten years."
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Aug 2010 @ 7:30pm

Re: Privilege
Maybe you're just trolling, but I'm person A and so are many millions of other people, and I understand the human desire for privacy quite well.

I'm not sure which of those properties necessarily translates into privilege either. You didn't include "rich" or "affluent" in that list, nor give a reason why those things would imply an ignorance about the human drive for privacy.

People whose depth of thinking begins and ends at "you have nothing to hide" are, sadly, not interested in delving into arguments from the opposition, scholarly or otherwise. Most people do not care to explore their opinions or positions in great intellectual depth.

That's why I feel that all the argument in the world often amounts to nothing. You can take any subject that produces divisive opinions and find definitive and compelling dialogue on both sides that explores every possible facet of the issue. Every conversation has been had before, in greater depth and by smarter people than you or I. I don't think the problem of ignorance is because of a lack of compelling arguments, but rather people's lack of ambition to avail themselves of the information out there about the subject.
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abc gum, 4 Aug 2010 @ 7:32pm

Re: Privilege
You obviously didn't even read the Mike summary much less the links.
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Laurel L. Russwurm (profile), 4 Aug 2010 @ 7:55pm

Loss of Control
Citizens are being asked to give up all control over Intellectual Property (IP) we've purchased. The manufacturer's rights over-rule ours as they limit or control our use of our own property through deployment of DRM or lawsuits for non-commercial personal sharing.

At the same time, we are being asked to give up all control over our own personal information up to and including body scans (call it personal privacy or PP).

Citizens are simply being asked to give up our rights.
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Nick Coghlan (profile), 4 Aug 2010 @ 8:11pm

Direct link and RSS feed
Counterspy appears to be the name of Gellman's column on the Techland site.

So the list of articles is here:
http://techland.com/author/gellmanb/

And the RSS feed is here:
http://techland.com/author/gellmanb/feed/
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Al, 4 Aug 2010 @ 8:12pm

Re: Privilege
1. That is utterly racist

2. I suspect you need to broaden your horizons

person A. Is religious and expects the privileged position due to their obvious religion.

person B has been the unfortunate victim of such attacks

Notice there is no color and no gender bias because people without prejudices don't see that distinction.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Aug 2010 @ 8:27pm

Why privacy rights exist?

Because otherwise the government always abuse that power.

Once it is ok to do it, they will use it for other things.

The TSA is an example it was said it would never record anything, and surprise, it is recording and not only that it sends those things only God knows where.

But that is mostly irrelevant, the real pain occurs when someone gets some embarrassing information about an individual and uses that to coerce that individual to do something else.

Obama should get all the permissions he wants so he can keep an eye on congress and find out about their indiscretions and use that to accomplish something, wouldn't that be great? and when Obama is gone and a prick president like Bush gets elected again he can use all of that to screw people even more.

Now for the common people I can see police officers harassing people to get things, he got a neighbour he doesn't like, that is fine lets see what the guy is doing wrong so he can confront him. That is the power you give to government when you don't fight for privacy.

And those are not theory either, I saw it happen in many instances in my life so no matter how much BS those people spout I know what happens. I know out there the will stop at nothing to make something happen.

It is just to much of a temptation to resist, those power hungry idiots can't control themselves and probably never will.

Want some dirt on some other business so you can close it down? That can be done.

Heck that is why Hollywood was so afraid of movie trading in the stock exchange that meant scrutiny in their finances with a microscope by the SEC and they didn't want that at all.
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Overcast (profile), 4 Aug 2010 @ 8:37pm

"if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide"

One could also put forth the argument:

"if I've done nothing wrong, why are you concerned with snooping on me?".

It's the WHOLE core of the concept "innocent until proven guilty" - but that doesn't seem to be too popular anymore.

Clearly; the concept of "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide" - assume guilt by default - it has to.
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Michial Thompson, 4 Aug 2010 @ 8:45pm

WOW not even one comment supporting taking privacy away
YET god forbid someone talk about wanting my home to be kept private and not photographed by every tom dick and harry palm out there...

Go figure, little mikee posts about how it's everyone god given right to invade the privacy of my yard from any angle and every cronie jumps on the band wagon, then he mentions how everyone wants privacy and all the cronies are in support.

Guess it comes down to getting the privacy ONLY when your locked in a room with no other human, or windows or even the ability for air and sound to get in or out.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Aug 2010 @ 8:58pm

Re: WOW not even one comment supporting taking privacy away
The outside of a house is private how?
And breach's your privacy how?
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Richard, 4 Aug 2010 @ 9:02pm

Re: WOW not even one comment supporting taking privacy away
Wow, I'm going to need some time to to get my head around that. So let me see if I got this. You want your house taken off of Google Maps? And you're upset because Mikee (who's that BTW) won't condemn aerial photography?
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Keven Sutton (profile), 4 Aug 2010 @ 9:02pm

Re: WOW not even one comment supporting taking privacy away
First I'd like to congratulate you on the nice strawman you have there. It seem to work quite well for you.

Second, most of the arguments about someone taking a picture or viewing your house have to deal with the Streisand effect, not with how right or wrong it is. Drawing attention to the fact that you don't want people to know certain information that is already public will almost always draw more attention to the certain information as well.

third, There is a huge difference between standing in public - being in the line of sight of something and someone actively trying to dig up information on me. It has to do with expectation of privacy, not with the information itself. Example, I am standing naked in the middle of the street, no expectation of privacy. I am standing naked in my house, in the shower, much expected privacy.

I realize that you prefer beating on a strawman, but seeing as how that poor strawman of yours is getting a little worn, maybe you'd like a new one.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Aug 2010 @ 9:03pm

Good Point
He makes a good point. We do hide certain stuff from certain people.
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Lyle, 4 Aug 2010 @ 9:23pm

Re: WOW not even one comment supporting taking privacy away
Is the picture taken from a public street? If so you have no expectation of privacy. Get permission to erect an 8 foot concrete wall ala Latin America and you can block the photo. Also any aerial view beyond 500 feet high is ok. No one ever said you have a right to hide what is observable from public space.
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Dohn Joe, 4 Aug 2010 @ 9:30pm

Open Book Lifestyle
I once tried that experiment with my life - to live it as an open book. The result was that 4 out of every 5 people I knew no longer associate with me for one reason or another. I have 2 conclusions from this:
1) "I have nothing to hide" only works if all the small-minded and stuffed-shirt types vanish from the earth.
2) This experiment is an excellent way to find out who like you because of who you are (not "what" you are in society or what they can use you for) and to weed out all the rest.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 4 Aug 2010 @ 9:41pm

Re: WOW not even one comment supporting taking privacy away
Translation: you don't like when people invade the privacy of my private stuff, but you want people to invade the privacy of stuff that is public anyway!
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 4 Aug 2010 @ 9:42pm

Re: Re: WOW not even one comment supporting taking privacy away
Forgot to say... little michi t!
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Kevin Carson, 4 Aug 2010 @ 10:54pm

You've got nothing to hide... unless you're a cop being videotaped
For proof that the "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide" argument is bullshit and the cops know it, you need look no further than their refusal to be filmed. Try using that line on a cop, and you'll g
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Aug 2010 @ 10:59pm

I read something that someone posted somewhere and it debunked this bullshit without the need for a paper.

It was something along the lines of: We do nothing wrong when we use the bathroom, make love to our spouse, or get dressed in the morning, but clearly we are not unjustified in wanting privacy in those situations.
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Chris in Utah (profile), 5 Aug 2010 @ 12:30am

Grins
Privacy aside, I have plenty to comment about there but feels more like griping at the air so I'll just ask a question.

Given the tone and the timing I wonder if you subscribe to Lew Rockwell too Mike.
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Conor T., 5 Aug 2010 @ 1:18am

Humm,
"Comprehensive transparency is a nightmare"

It dawns on me that if we accept that there is a need for privacy and a discomfort with transparency, then why do we constantly demand it from companies and politicians.

If we are allowed make arguments that I do not want my employer to know I'm looking for another job, then surely the company of government will have similarly valid arguments.

I'm divided on this issue. Only the entity desires the privacy, your employer feels entitled to know that you are looking for a job because it is in their interest to start looking for a new employee. The citizen feels entitled to know what the gov a signing them up to. Who draws the line? Who trumps who?

I don't think i have a point, but there are my thoughts.
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Richard (profile), 5 Aug 2010 @ 1:19am

Re:
Right - my usual reply to the "if you done nothing wrong..." line is:

"Well you won't mind me installing a cctv camera in your shower and putting a live feed to a big screen in Times Square then!"
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senshikaze (profile), 5 Aug 2010 @ 4:10am

Re: Humm,
Personally, I don't care if politicians are sleeping with prostitutes, or have mistresses. I do care that they spend my money on things that I either don't agree with or are actively against. I want transparency only when it affects me or the money I entrusted to them. I couldn't care less about their love life.
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Matt Polmanteer (profile), 5 Aug 2010 @ 4:50am

Stupid Argument
Here is a great example of why the "If you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" is crap. This video explains why you should never talk to police and how even if its true you didn't do anything your still guilty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Aug 2010 @ 4:55am

Re: Re: Privilege
The issue is that people who don't mind invasions to privacy are focused on how it will stop the people they don't like.

Person A is actually willing to give up liberty to control Person B.
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abc gum, 5 Aug 2010 @ 5:12am

Re: Re: Re: Privilege
And person A is one sick dude.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Aug 2010 @ 6:15am

Re: Stupid Argument
That video is great and I have forgotten about it today, a shame really(that I forgot).
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Aug 2010 @ 6:46am

Everyone Has Something To Hide
Except for me and my monkey
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Michael, 5 Aug 2010 @ 7:19am

Re: WOW not even one comment supporting taking privacy away
"Go figure, little mikee posts"

Have you not figured out that your name calling in nearly every post just make you look like an uninformed moron?

You argue like a three year old.

You used to post a good argument here and there. Lately, your childish insults take away from every argument you make. You are doing your case a real disservice.
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marty, 5 Aug 2010 @ 8:00am

hi Suspect A,

How much privacy do you think prisoners get?

How many crimes and other bad things are still committed inside prisons?

What will giving up our privacy on the outside get you?
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btr1701 (profile), 5 Aug 2010 @ 8:03am

Privacy
As a law enforcement officer myself, I've run into the "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide" argument quite often from fellow cops and I always respond with a scenario:

Say you pull me over on the side of the road and ask to search my car. I say no and request you get a warrant. You say "If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide."

I respond, "Okay, I'll make you a deal. I'll give you consent to search my car if, after you're done, you allow me to drive to your home and search it. Look through all your personal files, paw through your wife's underwear drawer, inventory your medicine cabinet, check out your kids rooms, and look through your internet browsing history."

I ask them if they'd be willing to make such a deal, because, after all, if they have nothing to hide, having a total stranger ransack their private spaces should be no big deal.

The answer I receive is usually uncomfortable silence.
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btr1701 (profile), 5 Aug 2010 @ 8:10am

Re: WOW not even one comment supporting taking privacy away
> little mikee posts...

Hi, TAM. Welcome back.

Regards,

Crony #42
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Aug 2010 @ 9:24am

Re: Privilege
Person B is black, female, gay and atheist and understands *exactly* why privacy is important.

You left out "handicapped" (or "differently-abled").

What have you got against the handicapped?
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Barbara, 5 Aug 2010 @ 9:51am

Nothing To Hide
When I was young, I would have said, "I have nothing to hide". But experience has shown me that having nothing to hide does not protect one from being compromised or even victimized. I don't believe in generic sweeps either ... looking for a reason to initiate an action against people is not as necessary as investigating an element imminent danger. But, what is happening frequently is that people can have their privacy violated for long periods of time, even indefinitely, without any legal process whatsoever!
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TDR, 5 Aug 2010 @ 10:31am

Quite a noticeable bias against the Person A type, without a single person here even acknowledging that bias. Such as automatically assuming that said person is always corrupt and obsessed with control and has no understanding of morality. If such things are true about a person, they are NOT a Christian no matter what they say - the faith is shown through actions, not words. Paul himself wrote that in the New Testament - "faith without action is dead."

In other words, don't judge Christians because you'll be guilty of the same thing you accuse them of. Actually look at what those who claim that title are doing with their lives, the "fruit" they are producing, as Jesus put it. If it's good fruit - patience, honesty, forgiveness, love, etc. - then the person is indeed trying to live by their faith and should not be ridiculed or judged. If the fruit is not good, you'll be able to tell. Lumping all those who go by the title Christian together is wrong and an act of gross negligence.

A true Christian, by the way, understands as well that the faith is meaningless if it's forced. I will say it again: the faith is meaningless if it's forced. Christians are supposed to share God's message and love, but only he can make a heart willing to receive it. It's just unfortunate that a lot of people, including Christians, tend to forget that.

And a real Christian, Al, doesn't expect privilege. They understand that the life of faith is one of service and love to God and to one another. Jesus was never about privilege, and neither are those who honestly try to live as he did. I do understand that it's sometimes hard to tell apart the modern day Pharisees - who outwardly profess themselves as Christians but who in reality are NOT - from real Christians for someone who isn't overly familiar with the faith, though.

Just remember that Jesus said that not all who call him Lord are actually his - he knows who the pretenders are and who aren't.
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TFH, 5 Aug 2010 @ 10:37am

Re: The Flaw Here...
The relational nature of privacy isn't the best argument against this, because your relationship to the eavesdropper is known.

OK then, Rob, will you pose for some naked photos for me, or are you a hypocrite? You'll get to meet me, so our relationship will be known.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Aug 2010 @ 4:46pm

My favorite retort
If I have done nothing wrong, why do you need to know everything about my life?
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Gene Cavanaugh, 5 Aug 2010 @ 8:24pm

Privacy
I totally agree; but will add that often the people who
think "you have nothing to hide if you are honest" routinely hide stuff. The police, for example, often use that line (as the article states) but seldom are transparent themselves.

I would be willing to have less privacy if we had more transparency - but the people who say it is not important apparently think it is very important for them.

This is especially true of secrecy - the main purpose of which is to protect the guilty.
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FMHilton (profile), 6 Aug 2010 @ 3:47am

Re: Privacy
Very compelling reasoning. As long as one isn't considered a suspect, they must have nothing to hide, or so they think, until they're accused of something. A very fine line to walk, and most people don't understand it.
It changes fast when the situation does.
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Matthew Stinar (profile), 7 Aug 2010 @ 10:56pm

Re: Re: Privilege
Incorrect. People without prejudices aren't uptight about the distinction. Diversity should be celebrated, not ignored.
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radii, 23 Aug 2010 @ 9:16pm

privacy like copyright - automatic but must be protected
In America when you put pen to paper or fingers to keypad, etc your copyright on your original creation is implicit, automatic, a given ... yet if you do nothing to note or protect or declare this copyright you will be stolen from and it will be hard for you to prove your ownership rights

Privacy works much the same way now in America - we have 4th and 14th Amendment rights to privacy under the US Constitution, but these rights are regularly trampled, and in the past several years especially - due to technology and the younger generation not having any understanding nor respect for privacy - the very notion of privacy has eroded dramatically ... privacy must be declared, proclaimed, defended, fought for ... these new biometric vending machines will be the worst yet - asking you to give away your most precious personal data to private companies (linked to right-wing groups usually) to be bought and sold like a commodity

The pendulum will swing back soon enough - with some hipster group of smartypantses declaring that all technological means to gather personal data should be resisted and it will become hip ... then we will have 3 classes: those who are ignorant of the whole issue, those who defy technological data gathering, and those who embrace/ignore it
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Anonymous Coward, 27 May 2012 @ 8:22am

Re: Re: Re: Privilege
So... Jacking off is adultry, looking at porn is forbidden, and because u owe moneyto someone, your going to prison. I must be totally fucked
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Anonymous Coward, 7 Jul 2015 @ 2:03pm

Re: Re: Privilege
Stop being a pompous twit and try to inform people what your talking about before you diss them!
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Anonymous Coward, 7 Jul 2015 @ 2:07pm

Re: Re: Re: Privilege
What does that mean - everyone has the option to say what they please, but for some reason pompous so called intelligent twits think they have last sAy every time - how dies that work in the Galaxy
? Eh!
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Anonymous Coward, 7 Jul 2015 @ 2:12pm

Re: Re: Privilege
Why is someone superior than you or I - are they super human - I don't think so - everyone in this Universe is entitled to an opinion - note: Opinion - even the privileged of pompous twits!!!
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Anonymous Coward, 7 Jul 2015 @ 2:15pm

Re: Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!*
If he's honest you have nochance!
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Anonymous Coward, 7 Jul 2015 @ 2:20pm

Re: Open Book Lifestyle
Continue to live your life as an open book - that's called living - the people who have left you are not!
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Anonymous Coward, 7 Jul 2015 @ 2:37pm

Re: Privacy
Sad - they obviously have something to hide!
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