Yet Another Reminder That You Don't Own Your Ebooks: B&N Nook Deletes Files, Blames User
from the poof-gone dept
Just as Barnes and Noble is updating the Nook, its ebook reader that hasn't gotten much traction, comes reports that of an upset customer who found that the Nook deleted all of his files, and when he complained to B&N, the company basically told him it was his fault and there was nothing it could do. While B&N was able to restore the ebooks, it could not restore anything else, not from B&N, such as his own documents and notes:I tried to turn my Nook on this morning and it wouldn't turn on. Finally, it gave me a screen that said it was updating and that I needed to leave it be, so I did. When it had finished updating it had wiped all of the files off of my nook. When I reregister the device, the books from B&N will return, but everything, including documents not from B&N, has been deleted.Amazon got in a lot of hot water years ago for deleting copies of an ebook. You would think Barnes & Noble would know better than to do the same.
When I called technical support (1-800-THE-BOOK) to complain/make sure they were aware of the problem so that it wouldn't happen to other people, I was informed that this can happen when the device hasn't been updated in awhile. I asked if this was something they were trying to fix and I was blamed for the fact that everything had been wiped from my device because I had not been studiously updating the device. I asked if he understood how absurdly incompetent this was, my computer, after all, does not delete all my files because I don't update it for awhile. I was informed that my computer updates everyday, whereas I have apparently not updated my nook in a terribly long unspecified length of time, which was just too long and too many updates for it to handle without deleting all my files.
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Filed Under: ebooks, nook, ownership
Companies: barnes & noble
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Well damn...
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Re: Well damn...
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Re: Well damn...
Those are the two primary reasons i bought mine. This story stinks of a software glitch that someone at B&N idiotically explained away. The moral of the story is that if you have anything on your reader that isn't from B&N you should have a backup of it (I suggest DRM stripped backup versions of the B&N books as well)
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Re: Well damn...
and don't buy into the "all-in-one package" of B&N or Amazon.
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Re: Well damn...
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Re: Well damn...
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Re: Well damn...
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Re: Well damn...
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Re:
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(BTW, English is not my main language.)
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Not analagous
Amazon *deliberately* permanently deleted purchased books from customers e-readers because of licensing issues, taking not only the purchased e-books, but also customer notes. It was not an accident. The nook has a bug, a bad bug that deletes stuff from the nook when it does a big update, with the idea being that it can re-sync with your computer. But if you haven't synced with your computer recently, you may loose the documents you made in between syncs. It is an appalling, inexcusable bug, but it is not the deliberate memory holing of customer e-books the way the Amazon fiasco was.
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B&N is in what business?
Also agreed that this is an appalling inexcusable bug. What makes it really bad is that some people don't see these products as a mobile platform to read books purchased from their online bookstore. They might see this as a platform to view their own documents.
Their care with the customer's data and reply from support seems to suggest that this market segment is not one of their priorities.
This might be good to know as there are other options: competing ebook readers, iPad, netbooks, etc.
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Ye Olde Double Standard
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Re: Ye Olde Double Standard
This situation persists because there is no competitor stepping up and saying things like "No sir! We'd never delete your books or personal files of your device! Please forgive this incredible inconvenience, how can we make it up to you?"
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Re: Re: Ye Olde Double Standard
I want an e-book, I'm just not happy with what's on the market now. I like the iPad probably the best, but I hate Apple and I won't give them 1˘ of my money. I still won't jump on any gen1 product. My data integrity and time is too important.
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If people don't buy things then where does the marketplace come from?
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Re: Ye Olde Double Standard
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The jailbreaking problem.
Or will the platform specifically prevent him from doing so?
This is a real issue with the new generation of PC "appliances" that no longer allow you to access your own data anymore.
If you can't mount the device on a PC like a harddrive and do what you want with the data, then you aren't in a position to fend for yourself in terms of backups. This is something that should be much more prominent on the "consumer radar" than it is currently.
If you can't "pirate" stuff then you can't preserve it. This goes for conventional archiving as well as backups.
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Re: The jailbreaking problem.
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Re: Re: The jailbreaking problem.
Writing updates that in any way shape or form destroy your customer's data is not a winning business strategy. Should he back up his data? Yes. Should it be B&N's problem that he did not back up his data? No. Should B&N be putting out software that has the apparently anticipated effect of destroying someone's data. No. Do I have to spend money at B&N? No. And why would I when this is their product? And why would I waste my money on any other product in their stores if they can't be bothered with this franchise product they've been crowing about for how long?
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Re: The jailbreaking problem.
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Seriously?
Anyone with a lick of tech sense knows to backup their data before messing with updates. Especially when we're talking third-party applications and related data....
And that truly is what we're talking about here:
This guy side loaded third-party data, and he now expects Barnes and Noble to replicate it for him, post-update.
It's time, me thinks, to add the use of e-book technology to that list of activities requiring background checks, training and licensure. Otherwise, God knows...we'll end up with a world of dangerous e-book idiots - like this character - running around, creating havoc, stupid and scot free.
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The correct analogy is:
You update your web browser (on your PC) and it decides to erase your hard-drives. Now, it's your fault that you didn't feel like updating it for 4 months and that your were using your internal HD to store important files. I mean, come on, nobody uses an HD anyomore. Please...every one knows you should always keep your PC's data in an SD card. They are much more reliable.
So stop complaining. You BIOS is still intact isn't it? Hell, customer support even helped you to reinstall windows. You are stupid and dumb and stupid and it's your fault that you lost your data. We made no mistakes at all.
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They should be more customer service based, definitely. For God's Sake they are from a bookstore. You should be able to call your local Barnes & Noble and talk with a person. If you can't resolve the problem over the phone, you're able to take it to the B&N, this is way easier than dealing with a Kindle.
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I have to say it
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Re: I have to say it
FTFY
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DS@mailinator.com
Ahh, the angry customer... I'm sure the tech asked if he had backed up his Nook, as that would be the best way to restore everything, and the customer went into even more of a froth.
I HIGHLY doubt the tech 'blamed' him for anything, and instead, asked him a question about his backups.
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Ummm. Wrong.
I'm all for bashing the Big Bad Corporate Demi-Gods, but truly...in this case, it wasn't the fault of B&N. The end user has a backup somewhere, otherwise he'd not have been able to get the documents onto his Nook. More than likely, he's a neophyte Nookster and doesn't know his disk drives from his elbows.
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Re: Ummm. Wrong.
So you see nothing wrong with a standard update wiping entire hard drives?
You see nothing wrong with a company brushing this off?
I'm sure you'd be happy if installing a Windows patch wiped your hard drive, right? Because you obviously backup everything.
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Re: Re: Ummm. Wrong.
also, back up your shit.
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The complaint here is that it shouldn't.
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Sony for the win
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and i am calling you out on it.
during a nook update all his files were lost. but they were only lost ON THE NOOK. the books were still there in his account, and all were fully restored to the reader by B&N (which is strange, he should be able to just log in and get them)
His other files? the ones he put on there? well, those files should also be somewhere else, like his computer. You cannot generate content (other than notes) on your nook. you can only consume it. And the chance of losing files is present in ANY device when conducting an update, your ipod, your phone, your computer.
imagine if the story was: guy loses all of his iTunes when he updates to windows 7, Apple restores all of the purchased files but refuses to restore the MP3's he got from ripping personal CD's. Would your headline be about how evil Apple is?
basically you are using one guys lack of back up to prove we don't own ebooks, even though he got all of his ebooks back? B&N does the right thing and he does the wrong thing, and ... what exactly?
look, DRM bad, yes, ebook policies which allow sellers to erase ebooks, bad, yes. but seriously, false reporting is bad too. i expect better of techdirt.
i expect better.
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Re:
Imagine if a story was: Windows XP Service Pack 3 deletes your hard drive. Oh, but that's okay, because you still get all your Windows pre-installed software!
Or: Updating iTunes deletes all MP3's off of your computer, even self-ripped ones that have nothing to do with Apple.
And then the response is "It's your own fault".
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seriously.
back up your shit. all of it. i've been singing this tune since windows 95 took out my 500meg harddrive in college. back.up.your.files. and don't cry to me or any of your computer savvy friends when you lose them.
and reading is something i do a lot of, thanks.
the files were erased, that was bad. but it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with 'Another Reminder That You Don't Own Your Ebooks' as the title says.
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Suppose you are doing a routine update to, I dunno, Java. Do you admit the possibility of your hard-drive being erased? If that ever happened, there would be bloodshed. And plenty of it. I certainly would demand blood.
It is an obvious programming error that can cost people something that, in this day and age, is much more important than money: data.
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I suppose you'll then demand that people back up their backups.
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i had a friend have her entire appartment complex burn down. in the time it took her to get dinner she lost everything.
all the harddrive back ups, all the printed back ups in teh world would not have saved her files.
see, here is the deal. these digital things, your writings, your mp3's, your books, your pictures, whatever. they are yours. how important are they to you?
if they aren't very, and you don't back up, then don't be upset when they are gone. period.
we went through every email, every file, anything we could find to get her any writing she had back. but it wasn't nearly a tenth of what was now gone.
my back up plan includes printing out files, because it is hard for paper to crash or become corrupted, multiple external harddrive back ups, i use dropbox and have several friends who share files as off site storage.
so no, i don't demand anything of you or anyone else when it comes to back up. i am speaking from experience. if these things are important to you, then YOU must be pro-active in preserving them.
(and, as i have learned, that also means saving them in a file format that will be readable years later. i'm looking at you lotus notes...)
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Don't backup your data to SD cards. Sheesh.
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I hope this was said in jest because, if not, it shows extreme ignorance about the stability of SD cards which have a limited life span. And even if you were just being funny someone may take you seriously and actually do this.
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RE: You would think Barnes & Noble would know better than to do the same.
I am adding Nook now to my no-buy list!
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Somewhere, someone's computer still uses Windows 3.11. It gets updates too.
Everyone updates. Everything updates. Your updates. My updates. Update's updates. Updates updates updates
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I don't see a problem
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Re: I don't see a problem
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Re: I don't see a problem
Unfortunately the same goes for (computer) engineers. I could provide some examples here that are not yet on my blog.
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No calls to tech support needed - PLUS; he would really own it.
If it was something like a reference book, it could have well been needed in a timely manner. E-books offer less value than a real book - still.
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Really?
The way the nook works (for those of you who obviously don't know) is that you can buy books through B&N directly, and oyu can buy ePub and pdf's from other eBook retailers. When you buy books from other eBook retailers, it is the users responsibility to load and manage those titles.
If the nook crashes, or has a large update and the additional information gets wiped somehow, it is not B&N's responsibility to keep that data for you. Every other eBook retailer keeps an online library for you. You still own your books, you just have to reload them.
Keep a back up of your "my documents" nook folder, then if it happens again, you can easily copy & paste the documents back onto your nook.
Shame on you for making B&N seem like the bad guy in all this. Does the situation suck for the consumer? Sure. Is it B&N's fault? No.
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Re: Really?
Unless you can't provide a very good reason why an update should delete any non system files, hell yes, it is.
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Correct analogy
If you want a real world correct analogy to the topic at hand its like if you upgraded from windows XP to Windows 7.
You couldn't upgrade from XP straight to 7, you had to install fresh and for most people that means a quick format of the hard drive as well, either way you have to re-install all your programs.
But if you had kept up with your updates and went from XP to Vista to 7 then you never would have had a problem.
I have a nook, I love it, and everything in My Documents on my nook is also sitting in a Calibre library on my desktop so if I go home tonight, and update it and lose My Documents, it takes me 30 seconds to plug into my computer open up Calibre, select the books I want and hit "Send to Device"
I would be a bit peeved if I wasn't warned this could happen, but I wouldn't be upset over it since I still have everything that I put on there to begin with on my computer.
Also I highly recommend calibre, can convert from any ebook format to another, download meta information like ratings and covers and its makes it really really easy to manage the books I have and which I have on my device at any given time.
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Re: Correct analogy
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Re: Re: Correct analogy
Perhaps this was similar to a major version update to the embedded device's OS, 1.x to 2.0?
If so, what it should do is warn the user that this may/will cause data loss, and give them an out so that they can back up their data (B&N's fault if it doesn't).
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Re: Correct analogy
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I'll ask the question
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This is almost like the "electric abacus". An abacus is easy to use (once you learn how to use it), can do many things, requires no power, and is portable. Much like a book.
The electric abacus (i.e. abacus computer program) has odd limitations due to memory sizes, is not portable, requires a lot of power, suffers from random failures, and is not necessarily easy to use. Much like an e-reader.
Next time I hear someone say "Whoops, my book ran out of power" I'm going to punch them in the face.
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Personally, I find today's trend of making devices that are constantly "updating" by connecting to the home company, and which can be controlled remotely, to be disturbing. The last thing I want is for some company to be able to control a device I paid for.
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If the story is correct, they do.
Remember, he didn't manually install the update. He just turned it on one morning, and it updated without warning, losing all his data in the process.
Is B&N legally responsible for his documents? No. But it's still a dick move, and it does point to the idea that he doesn't have control over the device he owns.
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deleting books
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re:
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this? the title and the story are mostly unrelated, and it is being spun as anti-DRM when DRM isn't even involved!
i repeat, i expect better from you, techdirt.
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Nook updates and erasure of files
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Nook updates and erasure of files
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Re: Nook updates and erasure of files
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Lesson? He should keep his non-B&N materials backed up on his computer (considering he has to actually use the computer to put the documents ON the nook to begin with) and try storing the non-B&N materials on a microSD card as opposed to the main memory, because it wipes EVERYTHING from the main memory when it factory resets.
This story is being seriously misrepresented all over these tech blogs, and frankly, I'm appalled.
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nook owners expect miracles
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Nook does nothing for customers..... Bad move for Nook buyers....
I just became a Nook customer for the first time and I had issues with a ebook purchased. I downloaded it into my ipad under your Nook ipad App.
I was unable to open the the file so I deleted the book in hopes of re-downloading it to resolve any issues. (As this can occur with ipad apps as well.)
I was then no longer able to access the book. Minutes thereafter, I searched under the website for Support and sope with your Nook Tier 1 Staff.
The conversation was very disturbing. The first thing that I was informed was that I had to buy the book again. and when I confirmed, she says "yes."
Only after mentioning that this may be an issue, I am informed that she will try to undelete and to wait an hour to access the book. When I deleted
under Nook, I was given no warnings whatsoever that by deleting it under the library, I may be risking to have to purchase the book again. This is
potentially a major lawsuit waiting for you guys at Nook. I am writing to you before I conduct myself in any other way. Please respond as to how
Nook intends to fix this issue for future Nook customers.
11:10:09 : (MY NAME): Initial Question/Comment: I bought this inline, downloaded it on my ipad nook app.. didn't load so I deleted it in the library... now I can't access it...
11:10:14 : System: Welcome to the Barnes & Noble Chatroom.
11:10:39 : System: Angelica has joined this session!
11:10:39 : System: Connected with Angelica. Your Reference Number for this chat is 370195.
11:10:44 : System: Thanks for joining us.
11:11:00 : (MY NAME): hi
11:11:05 : (MY NAME): can you help?
11:11:28 : Angelica: Thank you for joining Barnes and Noble Digital Chat Support.
11:12:14 : Angelica: As I understand, you are unable to open a book. Is that correct?
11:12:15 : (MY NAME): just bought The Hospice Companion [NOOK Book] downloaded it once to the app library.... it didn't open so I deleted it in hopes of downloading it again... I can't
11:12:45 : Angelica: I am sorry for the inconvenience, Yasushi. Let me assist you.
11:13:00 : Angelica: With regard to your concern, where did you delete the book?
11:13:14 : (MY NAME): in my ipad nook app
11:13:23 : (MY NAME): under library
11:14:05 : Angelica: Did you archive it or delete it?
11:14:23 : (MY NAME): delete
11:15:05 : Angelica: I see.
11:16:20 : Angelica: What you've done is to permanently delete the book. In that case, you will need to repurchase it.
11:16:43 : (MY NAME): so I have to pay for it again?
11:17:25 : Angelica: Yes.
11:18:04 : (MY NAME): you guys are crazy.... what's tech support for?
11:18:33 : (MY NAME): I didn't get any warnings regarding this when I deleted
11:19:49 : Angelica: I am still looking for the resolution, Yasushi.
11:20:03 : Angelica: Let me see what we can do.
11:21:43 : (MY NAME): I'm printing this conversation. This can lead to a major lawsuit for you guys by Nook customers. (This is not a threat remark) Apple customers can download their apps time after time once you purchase anything. I hope you have a better system....
11:22:30 : Angelica: What I will do is to undelete this book, please try to open it again after an hour.
11:22:47 : (MY NAME): okay... hopefully it works....
11:22:55 : Angelica: Is there anything else I can help you with?
11:23:24 : (MY NAME): we'll just have to wait an hour. What Tier level support are you by chance?
11:24:10 : Angelica: We are Tier1.
11:24:41 : (MY NAME): and your protocol is tell customers to repurchase the book?
11:25:25 : Angelica: No, you'll just have to open it again.
11:25:39 : (MY NAME) what's your agent number?
11:26:09 : Angelica: You may just take note the session number 370195.
11:26:40 : (MY NAME): I need to discuss this with someone in a higher Tier level. It's not your fault. The system they set up for you is inadequate.
11:27:07 : Angelica: I understand, (MY NAME).
11:27:43 : Angelica: Once I've already undelete the book, you'll just have to open it again. It will not cost you anything.
11:27:59 : (MY NAME): There aren't enough warnings before people delete. Nook has been around long enough that there isn't an excuse for all this.
11:28:34 : (MY NAME): what's the corporate IT's contact?
11:28:50 : (MY NAME): email or phone
11:29:30 : Angelica: Unfortunately, we don't have that information. But you can send an email to Service@barnesandnoble.com.
11:30:02 : (MY NAME): okay, will do. I'll see where this leads to.
11:30:15 : Angelica: Sure.
11:30:20 : Angelica: Do you have any concern?
11:30:23 : (MY NAME): merry Xmas
11:30:34 : (MY NAME): plenty of concerns
11:30:40 : Angelica: Thank you for contacting Barnes and Noble Digital Chat Support. Have a good night.
11:31:00 : System: The session has ended!
********
9:13PM PST I Checked my account only to find nothing..... Now I'm disturbed.
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My books disappeared, too!
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Re: My books disappeared, too!
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new os dumps everything to put android on nook
My entire operating system was just converted to android with chrome for a browser and every setting switche when barnes and noble decided that they would decide what software my device could run.no request for permission no warning and no reverting to what I paid for. Now microsoft is looking at buyingthis platform so it cansell adds and access to you device. My advice is don't buy a nook. I bought the nook hd+ and hadto return it immediately for some software failure that corrupted any book it downloadedfrom b&n now the inside components slide around every time the device is turned and the updates are swapping OS completely with no option to decline. Iexpect this one month old device to fail in less than six monthes and b&n will not be getting any more business from me
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Something is rotten in Denmark.
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