Is Operation Payback A Crime... Or Just The Modern Equivalent Of A Sit In?
from the ddos-the-student-center,-man dept
With the news coming out that Dutch officials have supposedly arrested someone involved in "Operation Payback," the Anonymous-driven DDoSing of certain websites (first those in favor of stronger copyright, and now those working against Wikileaks), Evgeny Morozov raises an interesting question: is this just the modern digital equivalent of staging a sit-in?I don't think that their attacks are necessarily illegal or immoral. As long as they don't break into other people's computers, launching DDoS should not be treated as a crime by default; we have to think about the particular circumstances in which such attacks are launched and their targets. I like to think of DDoS as equivalents of sit-ins: both aim at briefly disrupting a service or an institution in order to make a point. As long as we don't criminalize all sit-ins, I don't think we should aim at criminalizing all DDoS.That's part of a larger post, where he worries that the government will overreact to these forms of attacks and use it to try to get greater oversight over the internet, and force less anonymity online. Of course, I would imagine that any such attempt to do so would backfire, and simply drive forward efforts to create more truly distributed and underground connections.
Later, Morozov notes that, in Germany at least, courts have said that activism-driven DDoS's are, in fact, the equivalent of a sit-in.
I can see both sides of this argument. Of course, you can also argue that a basic sit-in is a form of trespassing, and thus against the law, but we tend to tolerate it for the most part. But, like many sit-ins, I think the bigger issue is that I'm not convinced these DDoS attacks are even remotely effective. Do they get attention? Yes, absolutely. Especially the attacks on Visa and MasterCard. But will it actually do anything productive? That's not clear. It might make some companies think twice before doing certain things, but I'm not sure it will really matter that much.
The longer term effects may be more damaging. I'm not convinced the government would actually be able to successfully crack down via any attempt to get greater oversight on internet usage, but I think that there is the potential that these forms of attacks will backfire and could make people take the real issues behind censorship and online freedom less seriously, as they're associated with what's viewed as a sort of immature and sophomoric approach to the discussion.
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Filed Under: activisim, anonymous, crimes, operation payback, protests, sit-ins
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Reasoning by analogy
What does it gain us to argue about whether it's more like "a lunch-counter sit-in" or more like "a terrorist throwing a bomb"? Instead, we can reason directly. A DoS attack is an attempt to deprive others of the use of computing resources. It has collateral effects on upstream router capacity.
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Re: Reasoning by analogy
What's your point? Are you saying the analogy is unnecessary as both are obviously a social phenomenon root in individual citizens acting as a group for their own benefit? Because if that's the case, I must agree with you.
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Re: Re: Reasoning by analogy
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Re: Re: Re: Reasoning by analogy
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Re: Re: Reasoning by analogy
I'm saying that —for all too long— I've watched the lawyers make an utter mess out of their thinking on “cyber-security”. The lawyers attempt to argue by analogy to this or analogy to that. And then when you look at what they come up with, the results suck.
Otoh, I have a technical education. I suspect that many other commenters here also have a technical education. Or, at least, commenters here have enough technical experience.
We can discuss (D)DoS attacks in concrete terms. And —I hope— cut out a lot of the sloppy thinking.
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Re: Re: Re: Reasoning by analogy
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Reasoning by analogy
Unfortunately, given the network we currently have, we can't tolerate all that many DoS attacks.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Reasoning by analogy
The internet literally stopped for him.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Reasoning by analogy
Yes, that's the point. Birmingham couldn't tolerate all of those black people, either.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Reasoning by analogy
Not suggesting any attack on anyone here, just asking a hypothetical question.
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Re: Re: Reasoning by analogy
DDoS is generally like one person kidnapping X people and forcing them to the location to "sit-in".
In other words, if the DDoS uses computers owned by the activists, then it's very similar to a sit-in and should be "protected speech". If it uses a botnet of compromised computers (quite likely), then it's a crime.
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Re: Re: Re: Reasoning by analogy
Does it make a difference whether the originating hosts use their isp-provided public ip addresses? Or does it matter if the originating hosts spoof the origin ip address?
Further, does it make a difference if spoofed origin ip addresses are generated from non-routable ip space? Or if the origin ip addresses are spoofed from space legitimately routed to other parties? In the same asn? Or global third-parties?
Fwiw, I've gradually become more-and-more in favor of egress packet filtering. Especially from consumer networks. Yeah, it breaks legitimate routing setups—but as a practical matter, we don't see asymetric routing to/from leaf-nodes on consumer nets. The vast majority of consumer hosts are singly-homed.
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Re: Re: Reasoning by analogy
Now, Lobo Santo puts this into an interesting context.
Sit-ins, direct action, etc. all require an active, aggressive - sometimes non-violent - group action to hinder an ongoing issue. E.g., if you'll forgive the loft allusion, Rosa Parks sat in the bus actively, knowingly trying to make a point against racial segregation. In the process, she also impeded other segregationist whites from continuing with the status quo.
Anonymess, as it were, are making themselves heard, and for a reason. However, most of their actions are passive and collaterally affect legitimate "business." No customer will be presented (in the instance of PayPal) with a page saying that "PayPal is evil, here is why, this was done by Anonymous." Customers would be unable to access their funds for maybe a couple days. The sit-in theory is now bunk.
Back to the Parks allegory: these actions would be more along the lines of Parks sitting at the bus stop protesting segregation without actively stopping the segregationist seating policies.
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Re: Reasoning by analogy
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The Difference
A DoS attack just gives users a blank page, and very few people have the techinical capacity or willingness to find out.
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Re: The Difference
Really, I think the DDoS is more acceptable.
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Re: Re: The Difference
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Re: The Difference
Granted if I go once and get a blank page I might not think twice about it, but if a site is down for more than a couple seconds I might email support or try a quick Google search to see if anything is going on.
I think most users have the technical capacity to search.
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Re: Re: The Difference
But not the willingness to do so, I think.
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Re: The Difference
Because the entire South had access to the relatively small number of people shutting down business in downtown Birmingham? Really?
Not so much.
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Re: Re: The Difference
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Re: Re: Re: The Difference
Of course, your point (That the sit-in was to inform passers-by.) is moot, because it's not true. The point was to gain media attention, both now and with Birmingham. The people who were blocked from service were incidental.
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Re: The Difference
...which causes them to go to Google or a news site, or call customer services and try to find out what's happening. Since the media is reporting that the attack is due to their Wikileaks stance, the customer then knows what's going on.
What's the difference again?
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Re: Re: The Difference
Generally I just try again later.
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Re: Re: The Difference
People who are more technologically savvy would be more likely to assume that it's an issue with the web site and a subset of those people would go to find more information, but I think you're overestimating Joe Consumer's understanding of technology a bit.
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Re: Re: The Difference
People who've worked the help desk know that management routinely orders them to lie to users/customers. Especially regarding security-related outages. That is, if the helpdesk droids even know what's going on themselves.
Killing worker morale might be reasonable goal. But it's kinda hard to imagine morale in network support services going much lower than it already is.
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Everyone that would access the Internet would be able to easily learn the issues surrounding this, if they can't, then a DDoS probably wouldn't mean anything to them one way or another.
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A sit-in is illegal, the question is, will authorities treat it like a sit-in (no serious charges) or will they drop a hammer. Of course, some sit-in's had authorities drop a hammer in the form of night sticks.
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Depends on where and when. There have been plenty of sit-ins at my university in the administrative offices. If you do it during normal business hours, you're fine. It's only if you try to stay there when they're closing the building that they'll call the cops. If it's a public place during normal hours, a sit-in should be perfectly legal.
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Illegality
In the UK it breaches s3 of the Computer Misuse Act.
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Re: Illegality
All you can really say for certain is that the owners of these websites have attracted attention to themselves and didn't have the infrastructure in place to handle the interest. Are Slashdot and Fark breaking the law by DDOSing the occasional website?
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Not a sit-in... Vigilante tactics
Sit-ins were peaceful protests, conducted by people willing to stand (or rather sit) for their convictions. They courageously looked their enemy in the face and said "What you are doing is wrong." Yes, the sometimes blocked access (that is still done today in strikes). Yes, they inconvenienced businesses. They didn't shut the business down. They simply made their voice heard.
Those who chained themselves to doors were not "sit in protesters". They were a bit more-- forceful. Sit ins were peaceful demonstrations of objecting to unethical behavior through simple statement to catch the attention of the public. They did not try to offend onlookers; their goal was to obtain sympathy... and action. They served a purpose.
Internet attacks are done anonymously. They hide behind their keyboards, showing neither courage nor conviction for their beliefs. They take malicious and premeditated action against a chosen target. As such, they become vigilantes. Rather than assuming the role of peaceful protesters, they take the role of vandals.
DDOS attacks are neither peaceful nor legal. It is an act of vandalism, intentionally harmful to others. It is a breach of Federal law. That is not the solution to making a legal point.
These are malicious attacks... cybercrimes. No matter how much in the "right" the perpetrators think they are... they become un-right the moment they cross the legal line. They use anarchy and chaos as their tools rather than offering constructive solutions. They choose the easy, fast, forced solution rather than trying to gain sympathy and a permanent, beneficial solution.
Some may consider this rebellion. Some may consider this "tea party" activity. And in that they may be correct. Sometimes the only solution to a problem is to pull out the big stick. But make no mistake: this is by no means a "sit in". That analogy is bogus.
These DDOS hackers are neither peaceful, nor courageous, nor do they make any point other than "We have the power to impose our will on the public." In that... they perhaps become no different-- and no better-- than the companies they attack.
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Re: Not a sit-in... Vigilante tactics
Those are courageous people indeed LoL
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Re: Not a sit-in... Vigilante tactics
Yes, because the riots in Birmingham were peaceful. Yeah. Right.
Yes, they inconvenienced businesses. They didn't shut the business down. They simply made their voice heard.
Lolwhut? Martin Luther King, Jr. disagrees with you.
They did not try to offend onlookers; their goal was to obtain sympathy... and action. They served a purpose.
To quote another wonderful Wiki: By attracting media attention to the adverse treatment of black Americans, it brought national force to bear on the issue of segregation. Although desegregation occurred slowly in Birmingham, the campaign was a major factor in the national push towards the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibited racial discrimination in hiring practices and public services in the United States.
To be clear, I'm comparing these attacks to the protests in Birmingham, which were not peaceful, not fast, but were both purposeful and successful.
Internet attacks are done anonymously. They hide behind their keyboards, showing neither courage nor conviction for their beliefs. They take malicious and premeditated action against a chosen target. As such, they become vigilantes. Rather than assuming the role of peaceful protesters, they take the role of vandals.
The Birmingham protesters were pretty darn faceless, but that's a moot point, anyway. I don't recall the names of any members of group protesters in history, and I certainly don't remember a lack of anonymity being part of the civil disobedience laid out by King.
As for 'malice', I don't think that word means what you think it means.
DDOS attacks are neither peaceful nor legal. It is an act of vandalism, intentionally harmful to others. It is a breach of Federal law. That is not the solution to making a legal point.
It certainly has been previously. Can you explain what's changed, between now and Birmingham?
These are malicious attacks... cybercrimes.
Again, I don't think that word means what you think it means.
No matter how much in the "right" the perpetrators think they are... they become un-right the moment they cross the legal line. They use anarchy and chaos as their tools rather than offering constructive solutions. They choose the easy, fast, forced solution rather than trying to gain sympathy and a permanent, beneficial solution.
Rather than? You mean, because legal options have failed, right? Since that's the actual situation.
Again, the parallels to Birmingham are huge. Do you really not see them?
Some may consider this rebellion. Some may consider this "tea party" activity. And in that they may be correct. Sometimes the only solution to a problem is to pull out the big stick. But make no mistake: this is by no means a "sit in". That analogy is bogus.
So a protest that's almost a textbook version of what the most successful protester in US history did isn't actually a protest? Huh. Good to know that your opinion is so idiotic.
These DDOS hackers are neither peaceful, nor courageous, nor do they make any point other than "We have the power to impose our will on the public." In that... they perhaps become no different-- and no better-- than the companies they attack.
Many of the Birmingham protesters weren't peaceful, either. But they were successful.
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Subject
Yes. I can see all DDoS'ers cowering in their boots and they will not do their nasty civil disobedience again.
I still remember the images of the lone student that stood face to face with an army tank in China and how proud I felt for him. I feel this same way for those that take on powerful fascists.
Keep fighting, and may the fascists keep martyrizing us. This is getting very interesting.
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Re: Subject
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Define Fascism
The only thing that does not fit is that the US does not have a dictator, but a behind the scenes dictator committee. Everything else is apt.
You may want to learn how to use a dictionary.
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Ignorance Must Be Nice, Guys
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Re: Ignorance Must Be Nice, Guys
You know thousands of people, not by just a ''hi bob'' as you walk past, but personally enough that they tell you of their finanical troubles? And you have time to post on a forum? Damn you must have at least 30 fingers there mate.
Did you consider phoning paypal? Perhaps organising something in a non-internet fashion?
Sometimes the lack of commonsense of trolls astounds me :s
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Re: Ignorance Must Be Nice, Guys
read their terms of service. they can do this to you Voluntarily, and be perfectly in line with the contract you sign.
they have done worse, in their own right, to other charity organisations for less righteous reasons.
so, this event has drawn your attention to it. and probably that of many others. now, the question is, do they find out who did it and why, or do they simply accept that wikileaks is bad and add this to the pile of reasons, missing the fact that operation: payback is a different entity?
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Re: Ignorance Must Be Nice, Guys
When legal and diplomatic options disappear or are exhausted, civil disobedience occurs. This isn't the fault of the protesters, rather the administrations that allowed the situation to dissolve into protests.
Please pardon me if the fight for my civil rights are interfering with your commerce.
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Re: Ignorance Must Be Nice, Guys
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Re: Ignorance Must Be Nice, Guys
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Re: Ignorance Must Be Nice, Guys
Why should you live you life without issue, because someone does not like a web site ?
These people do not think about anyone else, again, its pathological narcissism, no empathy, they do what they like with no regard for the effects of their actions.
just like wikileaks and assange.
you think releasing the names of afgan contants with the US military does not put those people in mortal risk ?
How would you like a like of all the 'spies' in your area, how much easier would it be to just shoot them..
People will die, and people are also allready suffering, and people who have nothing to do with wikileaks are suffering because of the illegal act of a few stupid, immature people..
Happy to see them all in prison..
A sit in, is not anonymous, and it is peacefull, they take no agressive action, a DDoS is anonymous and has nothing but agressive actions.
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Re: Re: Ignorance Must Be Nice, Guys
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Re: Ignorance Must Be Nice, Guys
Hey, if you're a journalist, then this is partially your fault. If you'd been doing your job, Wikileaks wouldn't be necessary in the first place. Next, where was the support for the site that you jerks were getting all of your material from? We wouldn't have to protest this way if you were (Again.) doing your job. Last, you're the perfect person to be injured by this. Why should you be paid when you weren't doing your job?
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Welcome to the kettle.
A lot of us got tired sitting in a corden of police, having our bimometrics taken and some of us started looking for another method to make our feelings heard. We tried really hard to be polite but we got really bored with the press not paying attention. We learned that leasson the hard way.
You have to either make a story or be the story and still they get to frame to story.
But I dont have to be quiet and niether do you.
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Ah the circle of life.
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Re:
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I do hope you were being sarcastic, because if you really believe this, then the hope and dreams your parents had for you was sadly misplaced.
That being said, to the pissed off journalist, its called collateral damage. You were an innocent victim, something a journalist should know quite a bit about if you cover wars. Sucks to be you.
Maybe you shouldn't be doing business with Paypal. Isn't that the point of the protest?
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Not a sit in ... maybe a serious crime
Too many laws are being bent & manipulated to permit people who don't know how easy they have life to express their dissatisfaction with the comforts they take fro granted. Maybe an apocalypse would give them something productive to do while they try to scrounge up enough food to survive ....
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Re: Not a sit in ... maybe a serious crime
hint: it's because their predecessors refused to accept the same type of crap they're objecting to now. (in some places violently, in others simply by going 'well, that didn't work' and trying a different path.)
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Re: Not a sit in ... maybe a serious crime
Have you ever even visited their website? I know I haven't but use their cards for over 20 years now.
I shudder to think of the mentality of a person that would suggest that a DDOS is anything remotely like trespassing.
Maybe when your rights are taking away you will realize that these people are fighting for freedom from oppressive governments and corporations. No apocalypse needed :)
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Protest DDoSes are *normally* fine, but the main harm here ISN'T done to the targets
On one hand, yes, sit-ins DO disrupt businesses. If all of the seats in a restaurant (or whatever) are occupied by protesters, that leaves no room for actual customers, leaving the company paying staff to serve no one, which is going to cause an obvious financial loss. Similarly, there have been campaigns in the past to hit a company's phone lines with thousands of protest calls, raising the hold time for actual customers to ridiculous enough levels that they give up, and again, this is obviously going to cause directly lost money as people hang up, cancel the sale, and call the competition.
On the other hand, as has already been pointed out, disrupting payment systems does NOT just harm the companies operating those systems, it does huge damage to those who really need a payment to clear ASAP. The damage to people that have nothing to do with these companies can range from fairly minor (losing $20-$35 to a bounced check or late fee) to financially crippling (I can virtually guarentee that at least one homeowner failed his last chance payment to stop a foreclosure because of this attack.) If a store or restaurant is blockaded by picketers or sitters, you can just go elsewhere. If all 3 major forms of payment are blocked, there isn't an elsewhere to go.
This actually raises a very important question - what exactly IS the correct way to protest the actions of a payment processor? Because their service meshes with basically everything else, and because it's a very abstract service, how can one direct a protest such that it impacts the companies involved beyond just a 15 second blurb on the news, but without catching innocents in the crossfire?
A simple boycott wouldn't work, because it's impossible to tell who's boycotting, and who simply hasn't purchased anything in a while - especially in this economy. There's also the issue that business transactions are the majority of their profits, not personal ones.
A picketing protest wouldn't work, because where would you put it? This is an international protest against international corporations and multiple governments. Additionally, picketing corporate HQ does absolutely nothing to the actual business operations.
You could make an official declaration of taking your business elsewhere, but there isn't an "elsewhere", and they know it. There are many, many sites where only 3 forms of payment are accepted, and yeah, it's the 3 the protest is directed against.
So in short, I think the DDoS is well-intentioned, but does far too much damage to innocents to be an acceptable tactic when it's aimed at this type of company. I unfortunately don't have an alternative for what they should do instead.
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Re: Protest DDoSes are *normally* fine, but the main harm here ISN'T done to the targets
Please pardon me if the fight for my civil rights are interfering with your commerce.
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Re: Protest DDoSes are *normally* fine, but the main harm here ISN'T done to the targets
So they can't pay their mortgage but have good standing and credit with a card?
"I'm going to pay this 2% interest loan with an 18% interest loan."
Must be going for too big to fail.
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Re: Re: Protest DDoSes are *normally* fine, but the main harm here ISN'T done to the targets
So, yeah, try again.
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Re: Re: Protest DDoSes are *normally* fine, but the main harm here ISN'T done to the targets
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Re: Re: Re: Protest DDoSes are *normally* fine, but the main harm here ISN'T done to the targets
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Re: Protest DDoSes are *normally* fine, but the main harm here ISN'T done to the targets
Kind of takes the wind out of your sails huh?
Perhaps you can cite one example of any one person being inconvenienced.
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A DDoS starts with an illegal activity, usually the hacking of servers or individual user computers to install a virus, trojan, or back door to allow those resources to be used in the DDoS attack. So before they even start the DDoS, they have already broken the law. Think of it as stealing a fleet of cars to drive to your sit in.
Then the sit in starts. There is one catch, however, none of the protesters are actually sitting in. They have instead forced without consent hundreds or thousands of people to be their surrogate sit-iners, forcing them against their will to occupy the target website.
The protesters hide behind internet blinds, VPNs, open relays, and hacked computers to run command and control over the bots or machines that they control. I suspect many of them went out for a soda, went to class, did their 10th grade math homework, or maybe had dinner with mom and dad while their software tools continued to force others to sit in for them.
However, if 1 million people all kept reloading the Mastercard front page individually, occupying their own time by having to constantly, manually hitting the reload key, then they might have some standing. But a DDoS is nothing but a digital bully act by a comparatively small group of people.
A sit-in requires commitment and action by a large group of people. 5 people outside mastercard's headquarters with picket signs would not stop customers from accessing their accounts.
To consider a DDoS as anything other than a cyber crime is a logical dead end.
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So your DDOS is by bot-netting? ACTUALLY thats generally used for spamming. This DDOS is performed by people willingly using their computer systems.
A DDoS is an automated way of achieving your "refreshing the page".
To consider a DDoS anything other than a form of protest, is a logical dead end. (there you go mate, fixed that for you)
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Re: Re:
Bot-nets can do what you want. Many of them are used for spam, but some of them are used for DDoS attacks.
Since you can't get the basics right, please don't try putting words in my mouth, because your words are wrong.
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Re: Re: Re:
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/LOIC
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As for being arrested, they actually have the argument of "i was hacked and put on a botnet" setup already. Difficult to prove they were doing it themselves.
So back to my point, and as others have pointed out, the loic is generally done from normal every day computers, some run under protection, i know many who do not. Frankly quite a few are hoping to get arrested for it, then it gives them a much better platform from which to protest.
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I see that you don't understand how LOIC works. Here's a good place to start:
http://gizmodo.com/5709630/what-is-loic
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Re:
Just to clarify, my understanding is that the DDoS actions in this case are not involving such a botnet, but a group of about 9,000 volunteers.
I still don't think it's a good idea, but there's been no indication whatsoever that it involves hijacking anyone's computers. Might as well stick to what's actually happening, rather than basing claims on fanciful conjecture.
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Re: Re:
Since the numbers don't add up, I suspect the truth is in the middle: Lioc is the nice cover for a more organized botnet campaign, using probably hundreds of thousands of machines.
Ask your technical people, they will tell you. 9000 is not enough to sink a large collection of load balanced machines (similar to what these targets use).
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Re: Re: Re:
Admittedly, I just made a wag at 1 Mb/s upload bandwidth per host. On the flip side of the equation, those numbers fall squarely into what's been reported.
I agree though, that a hash table to filter out 9000 discrete ip addresses is not difficult. The only moderately expensive thing is doing it at line speed without asic. Iow, hitting cpu at every packet.
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Although, I personally think this is a much better use for a botnet than sending out the "prescription-free Vicodin" spam they usually do.
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Re:
Operation Payback doesn't use botnets to achieve its attacks.
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Yeah, the blacks weren't sure, either, but the situation was bad, and they'd run out of things to try. These attacks meet all of MLK, Jr.'s standards for civil disobedience, which pretty much closes the argument for me.
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Re:
Free speech is a two way street. MC, Visa, and Paypal all have the rights to refuse to do business with Assange. That is their right. The anon children may not understand that basic life lesson, but hopefully their grade 11 civics class will cover it so they can finally figure it out.
Denying the rights of one to somehow promote the rights of others isn't exactly fair, now is it?
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Re: Re:
I see that you don't understand how LOIC works. Tell you what, how about you take a minute and point out an unwilling LOIC user? Thanks.
Free speech is a two way street.
Yes, yes, it is, a fact that Joe Lieberman sincerely regrets.
MC, Visa, and Paypal all have the rights to refuse to do business with Assange. That is their right.
Sure, it is. And it was the business owner's right to refuse service to black folks in Birmingham.
The anon children may not understand that basic life lesson, but hopefully their grade 11 civics class will cover it so they can finally figure it out.
In the meantime, these 'children' have managed to make a wonderful statement about speech and expression. :)
Denying the rights of one to somehow promote the rights of others isn't exactly fair, now is it?
It wasn't fair in Birmingham, either, bringing to mind the classic cliché...
Life isn't fair.
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Re: Re: Re:
So the answer is the reverse: if people are willing members of a lioc, why do they not have the guts to reveal themselves and stand up for their convictions?
Further, it is likely that it could be found as a conspiracy to commit a computer crime. That a snot nosed 16 year old was found in control of one of these things should tell you all you need to know.
As for "it wasn't fair in birmingham", nobody has shown where anyone's rights have been trampled here. This isn't "back of the bus use the other water fountain boy" stuff. If you feel that way, I pity your children for the home school education they are getting.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Botnet Botnet Botnet Botnet
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
So that means you can't point anyone out, huh? Thought so.
There is no way to tell if the users are willingly part of the deal, or are not.
An equally likely theory is that everyone using LIOC is doing so willingly. Certainly, there isn't any evidence suggesting otherwise.
So the answer is the reverse: if people are willing members of a lioc, why do they not have the guts to reveal themselves and stand up for their convictions?
Yes, and those Iranian and Chinese folks who are getting real news out under a curtain of censorship should also rise up and reveal their names, right?
Is that you, Joe?
That a snot nosed 16 year old was found in control of one of these things should tell you all you need to know.
A 'snot nosed 16 year old'? Really? Wow. I guess the children and snot nosed black teens that were arrested in Birmingham were equally deserving of your contempt.
Really, I'm not sure what the age of a single user, or whether or not he's suffering from a sinus infection, has to do with the case in hand, where we have a very large number of people who are using LOIC to make a point, and to bring the media into this issue, just as Dr. King and his compatriots did in Birmingham.
As for "it wasn't fair in birmingham", nobody has shown where anyone's rights have been trampled here.
You obviously have no idea what you're speaking of, whatsoever.
This isn't "back of the bus use the other water fountain boy" stuff.
In your opinion, it's not. Obviously, millions of LOIC users disagree with you. Of course, many people didn't feel like civil rights were a big deal back then, either. Regardless of your personal view of the validity of the underlying issues behind this protest, the parallels remain the same.
If you feel that way, I pity your children for the home school education they are getting.
I already pity whatever institutions spat you out, since you have shown that not only are you unable to understand the underlying issues, but you lack the ability to Google the terms 'LOIC', 'civil disobedience', and 'unwilling'.
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Re: Re:
There was this one president that send the army to a local protest being held against a factory, but instead of helping the local enforcement the army was send to guarantee those people protesting would have a venue to their grievances to be heard, much to the dismay of the local authority.
Was that fair?
"Rose, civil disobedience isn't exactly the same. This is a small group of people dragging thousands of other people unwillingly into blockading a company for exercising their rights.
"
Small group of people?
Do you know how much bandwidth it is necessary to successfully DDoS a website from one of those companies today?
Hint: A thousand people with broadband doesn't cut it, not even close.
This is a gigantic demonstration of displeasure from a large group of people, probably in the 6 figures range(100's of thousands).
"Free speech is a two way street. MC, Visa, and Paypal all have the rights to refuse to do business with Assange. That is their right. The anon children may not understand that basic life lesson, but hopefully their grade 11 civics class will cover it so they can finally figure it out."
Can they discriminate against people because of their color? religion? political affiliations?
As you so conveniently pointed out nobody is free to do everything. In a democracy the majority is the last word not a small group of people trying to save their asses.
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To be clear...
Please pardon me if the fight for my civil rights are interfering with your commerce.
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Re: To be clear...
As for botnets, the entire idea of a botnet is that the bots do not know they are in the net, so you will not be able to find people on the botnet, who are unwilling...
the whole idea is not if they are willing or not, its if their computer has been compromised, and THEY DO NOT KNOW ABOUT IT..
It does not matter that the people running the botnet are willing participants, or that some of the people IN the botnet are also willing.
the act itself is criminal, so willingly doing that act is worse that unwillingly doing it.
It is extortion, which is also illegal, its 'because you did not do something we wanted you too, we will attempt to force you to do it.. that is extortion..
And that is what they will be charged for, along with hacking crimes..
But support them all you like, join in, if you feel so strongly about it, email the authoraties and tell them you are doing it.. as a protest.. and wait for the knock on the door..
assange has been placed in isolation BTW, seems the other criminals dont think too much of him either..
Then again being in prison for sex crimes, makes you are marked person in prison.. especially for not taking NO for an answer LOL..
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Re: Re: To be clear...
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this is exactly the kind of thing that is often missing. ballsy agressive tactics in the fight against the corporate oligarchs and the ruling class.
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Pathological Narcissism
To say 'as long as you dont hack into anyone's computers'.
We'll a DDoS is launched from a botnet, a botnet created by the bot master.
The botnet is a large number of computer that the bot master has allready hacked into, to make them his tools for the attack.
That's why its called a Distributed, denial of service attack..
Plus they incited others to also attack those sits, again that is against the law, to incite crime.
The law, and Governments in general do not like people taking the law into their own hands, and acting on their choices with no regard for the actual law..
But if you think resorting to terror tactics, and bullying will gain you any advancement of your cause, then they are wrong..
clearly, this is doing far more damage than good, and btw it did not work, i could access MC, Visa, and the paypal sites without delay or problem..
So you have people saying on the news that these sites are off the air, due to an attack, so you go and check those sites, and they are still there, happily working as normal..
Kind of makes that type of attack, look childish, and appear ineffective and to have failed.
I still cant work out why you are happy to have wikileaks and assange censoring and withholding information. But it is not ok for the owners of that information to do it.
Assange is a pathological narsisst, he meets all the requirement and profile of one.. that will be his downfall, if not allready.
Pathological Narcissism
"A pattern of traits and behaviours which signify infatuation with one's self to the exclusion of all others and the egotistic and ruthless pursuit of one's gratification, dominance and ambition."
With total disregard for anyone else, lacks empathy
Not to mention what they did is extortion, and that is illegal..
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Re: Narcissism or Darryl describes himself
I am beginning to think you must be on some psychotropic or other chemical restraint because you apparently are just babbling incoherently ignoring all facts. This blatant disregard of reality speaks bounds about who you are.
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Re: Re: Narcissism or Darryl describes himself
i just keep reading "im a anonymous coward troll" so you have nothing to add. troll
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Re: Re: Re: Narcissism or Darryl describes himself
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Re: Pathological Narcissism
[Citation Needed]
I won't hold my breath.
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YMMV
If this image is to be believed—and I have no reason not to, other than that I found it on the internet—the rebel squadrons behind Anonymous (attn. "news" hacks - that would be an entirely different group from Wikileaks and/or Wikipedia) are about to change their approach. So far, as we've witnessed, they have been launching point-and-click distributed denial of service (DDoS) attacks at companies perceived as the enemies of Wikileaks. Those targets included Mastercard, Paypal, and Visa (companies that froze donation funding), and Amazon (which denied hosting services). The new approach suggests more sophisticated thinking. This new mission, apparently, is to actually read the cables Wikileaks has published and find the most interesting bits that haven't been publicized yet, then publicize them.
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I can't believe that people are more worried about their ability to shop that about their civil rights.
What the hell is wrong with you people?
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@2
SEE NOW WHAT IT IS ABOUT?
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Collateral Damage
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OT/
It seems Anonymous have been taken down. The domain is not resolving anymore. Pinging works, the root returns 404.
The IP in case you're wondering - 67.215.65.132
Who wanted a definition of fascism? There's no better definition than Mussolini's. So here it is right from the horse's mouth
Fascism - "rule by corporations" (by means of corporations, that's what he meant)
But whow cares? What do you call a system where corporations rule a country? You call it the most democratic country in the world. The leader of the free world.
U.S.A! U.S.A!
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Operation Payback Communique
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Re: Operation Payback Communique
The funny part? This version of anonymous has revealed itself in this video. It would be the same small cluster of morons that travel to all the G8 and G20 meetings and start riots, damage "capitalist" store like McDonalds, and hold the local population hostage by turning the city where the meetings are happening into a war zone.
Supporting these marxist turds is a waste of your time. These people are dangerous, and do not want anything other than their sick and twisted policies to rule the day, without compromise.
Oh, anyone notice who is supporting Wikileaks? Lula? Putin? I am waiting for supporting statements from Castro and Chavez to complete the set. It isn't about free speech, it's about bashing America at every turn. These guys are getting a thrill out of watching the US get run through the mill, and they want wikileaks to keep doing it. The tune will change as soon as the Russian documents start coming out. Then Assange will be enjoying Siberia.
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As long as all participants are voluntary
No single participant caused the service to stop, so really how could anyone be convicted of anything?
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Crime
> Equivalent Of A Sit In?
Mike, I hope you realize that those sit-ins were crimes also. So whether Payback is the equivalent of a sit-in or not is irrelevant. Either way, it's a crime.
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If they were RIOTS Rose, they weren't "sit-ins". Sit-ins means SITTING. If people choose to adulterate that concept and throw in violence... they go beyond the concept to open revolt.
"Rather than? You mean, because legal options have failed, right? Since that's the actual situation."
What legal options were tried and failed Rose? I'm not aware that this group actually tried legal options before imposing their opinion by force.
Rose: "Good to know that your opinion is so idiotic."
Right back atcha Rose. Honestly, all I see in your post is a lot of attitude and heated ranting rather than offering solutions to a problem-- or even factual observations. You're entitled to disagree with any post here. When you stoop to insulting others for their opinions... All such a post indicates is a lack of emotional maturity; it surely does not convince me your opinion is trustworthy or even worth reading.
Bruce: "Keep fighting, and may the fascists keep martyrizing us."
Anonymous: "Unfortunately, given the network we currently have, we can't tolerate all that many DoS attacks."
Anonymous makes a very good point here... a lead in to a point I felt might be worth making today.
I'm seeing all kind of emotional statements in these matters, and freely-thrown-about labeling of "fascist", "martyr" etc etc. I don't see any martyrs here (anyone hear a report of someone dying over this issue?).
"Godwin's Law" is where you try to win an argument by comparing your opponent to hitler or nazis or whatever negative term will gain public sympathy. Someone disagrees with you: he's a Nazi. Someone's viewpoint is conservative: he's a Fascist. Such claims bring neither respect for the poster nor validity to the post.
It's easy to try to propagandize a situation by openly used negative terms. It's another to present viable observations... or even possible solutions.
There are many rights and wrongs on all sides of this issue. However, using DDoS to enforce one's opinion is not a proper solution. It IS a criminal act. It is indeed ALSO an act of protest, but that does not decriminalize the action.
Which brings us to Anonymous post. As he rightly points out, such attacks affect more than just the target. They affect those who use credit cards. They affect the Internet itself. They don't care about who is hurt by such actions... or how seriously they're hurt. The perpetrators simply strike out vigilante-style at their chosen target.
Does it serve the purpose? Obviously; it caught the public eye. How many times do we think that trick can be used before the public gets tired of it and starts insisting such perpetrators be found and jailed? As is ALREADY apparent, this action has had as many negative effects as positive... perhaps moreso.
"Welcome to the digital age"? You must be joking. Yes, digital media has changed the way we do business. Yes, special laws need passed-- realistic laws-- to take that into account. But laws exist for a purpose: so that people are not hurt by other people. When people ignore and break laws just because they "can"... they harm others. Now perhaps they don't care. Perhaps they feel "might makes right". Perhaps they feel there will be no consequences. Perhaps the laws themselves are bad laws in the first place.
But don't tell us these people are peaceful "sit in" protesters and that their actions are not criminal. If their actions aren't criminal, then tell ya what: Let them go down to the nearest FBI office and brag that they were a major player in the DDoS attack.
Right or wrong aside, good or bad aside, warranted or unwarranted aside... this is NOT a "sit in" protest. This was a cybercrime-- using computers to vandalize data systems. Any twisting of concepts to state otherwise is imo, pure propaganda and rationalization.
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Re:
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Poor Duuurryl, he tries so hard to sound smart but as soon as he opens his mouth we all know the truth.
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Re: Re: Re:
Anonymous, thanks for the compliment toward me... but that was totally unwarranted toward Darryl. He was just stating his opinion just like anyone else here. He mentioned he disliked the "shoot from the hip" posts (those without thought... on the fly). I tend to agree with that; I wish more people would think before they post. But, even emotional rants serve a purpose.
Way I see it is this: everyone has a right to state his/ her opinion. So long as it is respectful, doesn't matter if it's dumber than a box of rocks (and I'm not saying Darryl is, at all). What matters is they're voicing what they think and feel, respectfully. Sometimes even a post that's way off base (imo) can contain a gem of wisdom. So I read 'em all, good or bad, smart or goofy. Sometimes the goofy ones are good for a chuckle and brighten my day a bit. :D
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Limited options means tough shit
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Law as crime
Well, yes, agreed. There are many laws that are in themselves crimes. Or as a friend once stated, "The criminal justice system is aptly named." ;D
However, most criminal laws are created because something has been found harmful to others... and enough people are doing it to warrant a law being passed to help curtail such.
Let's consider DDoS as an example. The people who perpetrate such attacks look at immediate gratification, not long term results or consequences to others. They think, "Hey, we have the skillz 'cos we're leet... so let's show these guys who's boss and make a point."
But like most criminal activities, they don't even think about consequences for actions. Excuse the "emotional ploy" here... but realistically speaking... they don't think about the mother who can't buy milk for her baby because her credit card isn't working. They don't think about the old person with a high temperature who barely made it to the pharmacy, and now can't get their medicine because the credit card systems are down.
They don't think about the guy who's needing to go visit a sick relative but can't... because the gas pumps are compromised.
In short, these people target an entity (in this case the big, bad corporations) and don't think about the thousands of everyday, innocent people they stab in the process. They don't think about the fact that... as far-fetched as it may seem at the outset... what they do may indeed result in someone's death. They laugh while they hide behind their computers, pat themselves on the backs for being so smart... and totally fail to be truly smart by thinking through what they're about to do. They create anarchy and chaos... which is almost always destructive in activity. (Mind you, I enjoy a little chaos in its proper place... but it needs to be well-done chaos.) :D
That's why DDoS is a criminal act. There is no telling what repercussions such has on the innocent. That's part of the problem of being human: even when we're basically right, we can't see the huge, overall picture. We're not omniscient. Our sight is limited. And what we do may very well cause severe consequences not only on ourselves... but on people we don't even know. Our "bullet" travels the distance and kills someone we couldn't even see when we fired it.
But as far as the difference between "criminal" and "right and wrong"... I think politicians would prove that point for you every day of the week. I can't argue with your basic statement.
Again we get to the ancient tea party issue: dumping tea overboard to make a political point. They likely hurt an innocent merchant a great deal while protesting government policies. It's also a shame they chose to do so while trying to frame others for the crime. So when it comes to such activities, one needs to make durn well sure their stance is correct and that there will be a minimum of "casualties" from their actions... because crimes, right or wrong in motive, usually have victims.
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Wayfinder you're wrong
Well aren't you a mind-reader. But let's just get to you're more loony idea: so if they had noble reasons, they would still be wrong?
"But like most criminal activities, they don't even think about consequences for actions. Excuse the "emotional ploy" here... but realistically speaking... they don't think about the mother who can't buy milk for her baby because her credit card isn't working. They don't think about the old person with a high temperature who barely made it to the pharmacy, and now can't get their medicine because the credit card systems are down. "
And those chaining themselves to the door of a supermarket do the same thing ;).
"They don't think about the guy who's needing to go visit a sick relative but can't... because the gas pumps are compromised."
*see above*
"In short, these people target an entity (in this case the big, bad corporations) and don't think about the thousands of everyday, innocent people they stab in the process. They don't think about the fact that... as far-fetched as it may seem at the outset... what they do may indeed result in someone's death. They laugh while they hide behind their computers, pat themselves on the backs for being so smart... and totally fail to be truly smart by thinking through what they're about to do. They create anarchy and chaos... which is almost always destructive in activity. (Mind you, I enjoy a little chaos in its proper place... but it needs to be well-done chaos.) :D"
Rosa Parks->Buses down->oh those poor white workers that couldn't get to work->->->what Rosa Parks did was wrong? Come on, how about some logical consistency here?
"That's why DDoS is a criminal act. There is no telling what repercussions such has on the innocent. That's part of the problem of being human: even when we're basically right, we can't see the huge, overall picture. We're not omniscient. Our sight is limited. And what we do may very well cause severe consequences not only on ourselves... but on people we don't even know. Our "bullet" travels the distance and kills someone we couldn't even see when we fired it."
Ok clearly you are talking out of your... now.
"But as far as the difference between "criminal" and "right and wrong"... I think politicians would prove that point for you every day of the week. I can't argue with your basic statement."
Yes, and I think you should update your beliefs to reflect that acknowledgement.
"Again we get to the ancient tea party issue: dumping tea overboard to make a political point. They likely hurt an innocent merchant a great deal while protesting government policies. It's also a shame they chose to do so while trying to frame others for the crime. So when it comes to such activities, one needs to make durn well sure their stance is correct and that there will be a minimum of "casualties" from their actions... because crimes, right or wrong in motive, usually have victims."
Sure, just like 'Anymouous'. "Our goal is not to stop people from making transactions."
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