Two Years After The RIAA Suggested ISPs Were Ready To Implement 3 Strikes, Most ISPs Have No Such Plans

from the lies-the-riaa-tells dept

Wed, Jan 5th 2011 10:06pm — Mike Masnick

It's been a little over two years since the RIAA dropped its strategy of suing music fans for sharing files online -- a strategy that was an unequivocal disaster for the record labels. Of course, when the news came out, the RIAA suggested that the reason they had done so was because of a backroom deal with various ISPs to implement three strikes plans. And yet, here we are, two years later with no major ISP having put in place such a policy. Greg Sandoval has been following this story closely, and his contacts at most of the major ISPs indicate no interest in putting in place such policies, and a widespread recognition that the ISPs have enough lobbying clout to push back on the RIAA if necessary.

There have been some smaller ISPs who do seem to be using a modified three strikes policy, but without the major players, it's really not that widespread. Of course, it's notable that Sandoval says his sources expect Comcast to put in place a three strikes plan once its merger with NBC Universal is done, and suddenly it decides that protecting obsolete business practices is more important than kicking off your own customers. Either way, this is notable in seeing one place where the RIAA may have actually met its match. Two years ago, the group acted as if three strikes was inevitable. Even in Sandoval's latest article, he notes:

Executives from entertainment companies brush all the bad news aside. They say the same thing they've said for two years: Just wait. They say there's a big announcement from some of the major ISPs coming around the corner.

But they've been suggesting that for two years now, and at some point you have to question if there's anything to back that up. Perhaps the RIAA is just so used to getting its way that it doesn't know how to react when it runs into an even stronger lobbying organization.

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Filed Under: isps, three strikes
Companies: comcast, riaa

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Michael Ward (profile), 5 Jan 2011 @ 10:18pm

ISP's v. 3-strike
Comcast will attempt to implement such a policy, claiming that their terms of service allow them to cut people off for three accusations of impropriety.

The first lawsuits based on "internet as a common necessity in modern life" will be filed immediately, claiming that the so-called contractual agreement does not trump legal due process for a basic need.

It will be fun to watch the fireworks -- and now's the time for a legal startup specializing in suing the RIAA for legal costs, as a business model.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Jan 2011 @ 10:29pm

Re: ISP's v. 3-strike
Even better, we'll see TV commercials that start with, "Has your family been disconnected from the Internet by Comcast or another Internet Service Provider? If so, know that you may have legal rights. Call the law offices of..."
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Anonymous, 5 Jan 2011 @ 10:42pm

obsolete business practices

hahahahaha

yes, in Masnick's dream world, copyright and intellectual property are obsolete.

If there was an invisibility cloak in real life, as there can be online, I wonder if Masnick would tell all grocery stores to drop their "obsolete business practices" because of their losses from shoplifting...
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monkyyy, 5 Jan 2011 @ 11:24pm

Re: Re: ISP's v. 3-strike
who would have cable? dont people just get it for the "savings" of the bundles?
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RikuoAmero (profile), 5 Jan 2011 @ 11:38pm

Re:
Well, given that we are living in an age where copyright infringement is more or less unavoidable by pretty much everyone who clicks a mouse button, is done by the same people who defend copyright, then yes, copyright is obsolete.

And as for grocery stores...now you're equating me downloading a file with me going into a store and nicking a cabbage?
Imagine you run a supermarket. There is a high theft rate in your store. You could strip search all of your customers on their way out the door; only at first, you have so many customers, that there are many false identifications of guilt. Real customers who are playing by the rules are affected: they can't get out the door and half the time, your overzealousness identifies them as having stolen the goods they bought. Not only that, once you've accused them three times (ACCUSED, not found guilty in a court of law) suddenly, they find they're no longer allowed in ANY grocery store. Now how long do you think it is before you lose all your customers, all because you were worried about theft?
See what I mean?
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PaulT (profile), 5 Jan 2011 @ 11:38pm

Re:
"losses from shoplifting"

This is tangible and real. "Losses" from "piracy" are not.

Are you going to answer my questions yet, you disingenuous moron?
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Jan 2011 @ 11:52pm

Re:
invisibility cloak

So you think that instead of buying infrared goggles for their security guards, grocery stores (and banks, and jewelry stores, and so on) should lobby to make optical camouflage illegal, and hope that that will stop people from using it to rob them?

Personally, in a world with real "invisibility cloaks" available, I'd consider running a store without any way to detect invisible people to be an obsolete business practice.
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Anonymous, 6 Jan 2011 @ 12:15am

Re: Re:
Answer what questions, Freetardo?

Sorry, but believe it or not, I have a life. Making music, no less.

Just so all you little parasites can sit in your parent's house and rip it off...
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Mike Masnick (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 12:22am

Re: Re: Re:
Sorry, but believe it or not, I have a life. Making music, no less.

I know I've asked you this before, and you've always ignored it, but I feel compelled to ask this again. You come here and repeatedly attack me (with factually false claims, of course), and you complain that the musicians you work with are losing money due to your recommended strategy.

Yet, the musicians following the strategy I've suggested seem to be making more money than they ever did in the past, and seem pretty damn happy about it all. They're making more music and making more money.

And yet, you feel the need to attack me and call me a pirate defender. But I have to ask, given that your strategy clearly is not working, and mine is, at what point do you actually start trying to adapt?
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Anonymous, 6 Jan 2011 @ 12:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Masnick, I make my living in music, have my whole life, and always will.
I know you're under the narcissistic delusion that you somehow invented the idea of personalized promo, but you didn't, and I'm very familiar with its uses, thanks very much.

You constantly refuse to admit that artists are hurt monetarily by piracy, and you constantly defend the sites that rip them off, even when you know they're guilty. You're a piracy apologist of the worst kind.

You are going to lose the bet you made with me, and you know it.

But I will offer you a settlement, if you like. If you want to donate $2000 to MusiCares right now, I'll promise never to bring up the subject of the seizures again.

If you don't want to settle? When you lose the bet, I assure you that you will never hear the end of it.
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Josef Anvil (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 12:43am

Re: ISP's v. 3-strike
"Of course, it's notable that Sandoval says his sources expect Comcast to put in place a three strikes plan once its merger with NBC Universal is done..."

I don't think there will be many lawsuits over disconnection and I'm really hoping that Comcast does implement a 3 strikes policy. For some reason I can just hear all of the execs at Verizon and ATT salivating at the thought.

The telcos have been trying to regain their lost customers for years and Comcast/NBC could give them a better weapon. Now that the telcos have a TV offering and fiber just waiting for all those disconnected customers this would be the best thing that could happen for the telcos.

Comcast merging with NBC is a great score when it comes to content, but disastrous when you look at how a content company will want to work with a broadband provider. I'd start looking to buy Verizon and ATT stock once the 3 strikes announcement is made.
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PaulT (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 12:47am

Re: Re: Re:
The questions that I've asked you over the last couple of weeks in at least 4 threads. The threads that you mysteriously disappear from whenever I challenge you to answer.

First: since I met your challenge to prove that I am a paying customer who buys music, movies, games and books legally, are you going to address me in a civil manner and accept that I am not a "pirate"? If so, are you willing to partake in a civil discussion about how I, as a paying customer, have a great many problems with the way copyright is enforced and entertainment is distributed, and have many ideas that would allow me to spend more money on legal product. Or, are you going to continue to pretend that only "pirates" have real problems with the current system?

Secondly: you claim to be a musician and represent musicians, but as far as I am aware you've never named yourself nor those you claim to represent. Is this because you are lying, or because you're embarrassed to have your comments here associated with those recordings? If not, why not name the recording artists in question and allow those present here to either discover (and buy) their music or boycott them. Your choice.
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Anonymous, 6 Jan 2011 @ 12:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
If you actually purchase your music, then good for you.

The fact that any person that wishes to remain anonymous here is somehow vilified is BS. You can either agree with the concepts I espouse or disagree. My personal information is irrelevant; especially as long as there are others that share my view. There are others, I happen to know there are, and that's all I care about.
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Anonymous, 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:01am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
whoops, that should have read $500, which was the bet. Just demonstrating that I'm willing to give you an out.
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PaulT (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
So, to summarise:

You're not willing to partake in a civil discussion with anyone. You rest on your own faulty assumption that everybody who disagrees with you is a "pirate" and refuse to have a civil discussion with those who prove they're not, because that undermines your faulty worldview. It is so much more easy to rest on easy assumptions and insult strangers than to face reality, isn't it?

Meanwhile, you expect everybody to simply take your word that you are involved in the music industry, and accept your faulty assumptions because you are somehow an "expert", despite not being willing to offer any proof of that fact.

One of us is a fraud, a liar and a fool, and it's not me.
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Anonymous, 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:17am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
One of us is a fraud, a liar and a fool, and it's not me.

Add that to the list of things you're wrong about then.
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Anonymous, 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And apparently you think I follow everything you write. I don't. You say you offered proof you purchase your music? I accepted that having not seen it, and said great. What's your problem there again?

Most of the people here are freetards. They download music illegally and come to this board every day to defend the status quo of the current piracy environment. I'll argue with them all I want.

I couldn't care less if you believe I'm a music professional or not. It doesn't change the reality that I am indeed one.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:27am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Masnick, I make my living in music, have my whole life, and always will.

Good for you. I'm not sure what the point of bringing that up is.

I know you're under the narcissistic delusion that you somehow invented the idea of personalized promo, but you didn't, and I'm very familiar with its uses, thanks very much.

I have never suggested, implied, claimed or otherwise stated that I came up with any of this. Why would you lie? In fact, I've often noted that if you look back at history, this has worked throughout history.

You constantly refuse to admit that artists are hurt monetarily by piracy, and you constantly defend the sites that rip them off, even when you know they're guilty. You're a piracy apologist of the worst kind.

We have discussed this before, and I'm not sure why you continue to lie. I do not defend piracy. I have never "pirated" anything. I buy an awful lot of music.

As for "refusing to admit that artists are hurt monetarily by piracy," that's because we've seen that it's not true. What is true is that artists WHO DO NOTHING to change their business model in the face of piracy are hurt. I'll gladly concede that point (and have in the past). You've admitted that this is your strategy, and it's why the bands you work with have failed.

At the same time, what we have seen is that the bands who have embraced these new models and used "piracy" to its advantage have done much better than they did before. And that proves the point: it's not "piracy" that's the problem. It's how you react to it.

So, yes, if you sit there and do nothing, "piracy" will hurt you monetarily. But only if you sit there and don't adapt. Which you've admitted is your strategy.

What I'm asking -- and what you still haven't answered -- is why you refuse to adapt and why you then falsely attack me?

If I'm such a defender of ripping off artists -- as you claim -- why am I helping artists make more money than they have in the past? It makes no sense. And, if your solution is so great, why are you complaining about how the bands you work with are all failing?

Why can't you answer a simple question?

You are going to lose the bet you made with me, and you know it.

This is a totally unrelated subject. I find it funny that you keep bringing it up for no reason. And I most certainly do not "know" that I will lose the bet. I find it highly unlikely that I will lose it, because, as we've shown, the evidence that DHS used for the seizures was faulty, and they failed to meet the necessary standard for such a seizure. I find it quite unlikely that I will lose the bet.

In the meantime, I'm sort of surprised that you still have never agreed to the flipside of the bet: which is that if I'm right, you'll donate $500 to the EFF.

But I will offer you a settlement, if you like. If you want to donate $2000 to MusiCares right now, I'll promise never to bring up the subject of the seizures again.

Why would I care if you bring up the seizures again? It's amusing watching you flail about in those discussions (though, thankfully, you seem to have finally realized that Arcara has nothing to do with this case, after you repeated it like a mantra, despite multiple *lawyers* telling you why it didn't apply).

If you don't want to settle? When you lose the bet, I assure you that you will never hear the end of it.

Unlike some people, I am not afraid of speech. You are free to say whatever you would like.

In the meantime, would you finally answer my questions? Let me simplify it for you:

If the strategy I suggest is making artists more money, and the strategy you have embraced is making you less money, why are you attacking me for harming and ripping off musicians?
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The eejit (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:38am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Correction - idiotic artists are hurt by piracy.

Also, prove that you work in the music industry. You keep saying that the sky is falling, but so far, Atlas seems to still be moving. So do the four elephants on the back of the giant turtle, the Great A'Tuin. :)
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techflaws.org (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:38am

Re:
Obsolete troll is obsolete.
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techflaws.org (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:41am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I'll argue with them all I want.

And get rightfully plastered everytime since you can offer no single shred of evidence that most people here are freetards.

I couldn't care less if you believe I'm a music professional or not. It doesn't change the reality that I am indeed one.

Nor does it change the fact that your so called pirates don't give a rat's ass about you whinings nor bought for laws and will continue to copy stuff be it over internet or sneakernet. Tough luck.
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Anonymous, 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:42am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
1. We already use personalized promo; rebranded by you as cwfrtb. IT"S NOT NEW!!!! WE'VE DONE IT FOR YEARS! IT DOESN'T REPLACE THE REVENUE LOST DUE TO PIRACY!

Who's the one not listening or understanding? YOU.

2. Of course I will make the donation to EFF if the seizures are overturned, I've already said that.

But they won't be.
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PaulT (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:43am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Most of the people here are freetards"

Really? Less than 2 hours ago, you attacked me for being a "freetard" despite the fact that I've talked for years about the issues I have whenever buying legal content, and provided proof when challenged that I am a paying customer. Since you were so completely and utterly wrong about me, why should it not follow that you're also wrong about many of the other people you attack on regular basis?

"I couldn't care less if you believe I'm a music professional or not. It doesn't change the reality that I am indeed one."

It wouldn't matter whether you were really a musician or not, but you seem to expect everyone to treat your arguments as gospel because you're a musician. So far, we only have your word that you are what you claim you are, and you're not even willing to create a login so people can keep track of your arguments (I still have no idea what this supposed bet with Mike was about). Why should we take anything you say seriously?
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techflaws.org (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
How generous of you. And yet an all to clear attempt at not having to answer Mike's simple questions put to you. Weird, huh?
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techflaws.org (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And still you failed to answer his questions. BTW, here's a small supply of small letters for you, use them wisely:

abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:04am

Re: Re:
If you can't detect people you don't try to you adapt your tactics to make your business resilient in spite of it.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:06am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Correction:

You made it, you are not going to anymore.
Because me and others just don't like you that much.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The freetards that holds your future in their hands I might note.

But don't worry your destiny is EMI style.
When nobody want to listen to you anymore you will need to come to the freetard camp anyways.

You think people will pay you crazy people to abuse them for how long exactly?
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Richard (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:12am

Re: Re: Re:
Answer what questions...
I've reported this comment because it uses an obsolete word for people with learning difficulties as an insult.
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Richard (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:12am

Re: Re: Re:
Answer what questions...
I've reported this comment because it uses an obsolete word for people with learning difficulties as an insult.
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Anonymous, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:14am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Paul- look above and below your response. See them there? Freetards.

It's silly to even debate it.

The bet I have with Masnick is that the recent ICE seizures will stand; he believes they will not.

If I am correct, he donates $500 to MusiCares.

If he is correct, I donate $500 to the EFF.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:17am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Another has been angry at the new rules of the game LoL
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Mike Masnick (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:25am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
1. We already use personalized promo; rebranded by you as cwfrtb. IT"S NOT NEW!!!! WE'VE DONE IT FOR YEARS! IT DOESN'T REPLACE THE REVENUE LOST DUE TO PIRACY!

There's more to it than personalized promo. If that's all you think there is, you're doing it wrong. The fact that you consistently use the term "freetards," and falsely claim I support "piracy" and "ripping off musicians" makes it pretty clear that you're doing it wrong. It makes it pretty clear that you're attacking many of your best fans, rather than giving them what they want and offering them additional scarcities. The fact that you diminish offering them valuable scarcities by calling it "personalized promo" highlights the root of the problem.

What have you done to connect with your fans? What kinds of scarce reasons to buy have you offered them?
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PaulT (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Paul- look above and below your response. See them there? Freetards."

Hmmm... I've re-read the thread and I don't see anybody claiming to download illegally - maybe you can point them out? I see a few people discussing how piracy is an inevitable reality and noting that those who fail to adapt will die. But, that's not the same as either defending or participating in it.

"The bet I have with Masnick is that the recent ICE seizures will stand; he believes they will not.

If I am correct, he donates $500 to MusiCares.

If he is correct, I donate $500 to the EFF."

Thank you. Although, once again, I have to note that you could quite easily create a login that would allow people to follow things like this without having to ask, at no risk to your anonymity.
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techflaws.org (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:35am

libel
The freetards that holds your future in their hands I might note.

Right, so just because I simlpy stated the (rather obvious) FACT that pirates are not a least impressed by

- your whinings
- your threats
- your bought for laws

I am the freetard? Talk about shooting the messenger, dumbtard.
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techflaws.org (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:37am

Re: libel
Oops, my bad. I meant to post this under

Paul- look above and below your response. See them there? Freetards.

Mike, we could really need an edit button for the first 5 mins after a post or so.
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techflaws.org (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
look above and below your response. See them there? Freetards.

Right, so just because I simlpy stated the (rather obvious) FACT that pirates are not a least impressed by

- your whinings
- your threats
- your bought for laws

I am the freetard? Talk about shooting the messenger, dumbtard.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:54am

People can safely laugh at those claims by the RIAA since in this fight the bigger dog are the telcos and cable companies, not to mention the interests of the Tech industry that are vital to the U.S. army, that is why nobody will help them with that in Washington.

Now the best part, the RIAA don't even have the public to rally for them, they absolutely are powerless to do anything and people will just wait for all of them to die, which is happening faster then I expected, labels are failing from the sky like flies, while free alternatives are popping up fast.

If you didn't, go to Jamendo now!

So you can forget about the a-holes that populate the other side of the fence.

The face of the new artists that will survive "file sharing":

http://www.bradsucks.net/live/

He got:

- An online store.
- He has an interactive map saying where he is going to be.
- He distributes his music through free channels, that attract people to the online store and live gigs.
- Yes he sells t-shirts LoL (what is the world if we can't laugh at things?)

More importantly he is grateful for having fans at all.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 3:06am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
What I find amusing is the level of denial you crazy people live in.

Is like denying global climate change, you know it is going to happen, you know there is nothing you can do about it and still you deny it and somehow hope it will survive the change.

You see your shelter is not good enough and you don't do nothing about to make it better instead you use more of the same technology that is obsolete and will not shelter you at all.

Another analogy is flooding.

You see it coming and instead of diverting it or getting out of the way somehow you believe you will survive the flood standing still.

You don't try to contain the flood waters, you work to build something that will divert it.

Filesharing is just a flood of data you are never going to contained it but you can divert that flood so it is useful to you.

Did anyone ever saw a happy ending to someone that refused to adapt to his environment?

There is a reason people call labels dinosaurs, they all know it instinctively what it is going to happen that is why copytards get so angry they now the gravy is over for them and they don't know what to do.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 3:09am

Re: libel
Hmmm...not to be pick, but "dumbtard" is not a tad pleonastic?
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 3:35am

Back on point to the original discussion, let's just say that the landscape under the ISPs is quickly shifting, and 2 years of Democratic control of everything didn't make them very comfortable. With Democrats pulling the strings with their liberal (some would say socialist) leanings, it is very likely that if things got nasty, congress would have tried to pass a law to make the internet some sort of basic need and make it somewhere between hard and impossible to turn off.

The risks of greater abuses under that sort of scenerio made it easier for the ISPs to not get dragged into a 3 strikes policy. They instead really want the government to rule, and then follow those rules. Net Neutrality (FCC version) doesn't do anyone any good.

Now with the Republican'ts running at least part of the show, with their generally pro-business stand points, I think that there may be more pushing from the ISPs to get something done to strengthen their positions, and perhaps give them leeway to take on the issue of P2P traffic, as it is very burdensome for their bottom line to support.

Political climate really does have a whole lot to do with what happens.
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Jay (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 4:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If I might interject for one moment, I would think he doesn't know about other offers in the music field.

The "Freetards" comment is very telling:

This is for the "freetards" in Europe - Something we can't get in the US because of copyright law. Spotify is a valid service that wants to work in the US, but sadly copyright law prevents it. MORE artists are being discovered through tools, not less.

While our friend here is constantly attacking the tools, I sincerely hope that we can show that innovation will eventually win out rather than the name calling that is currently going on with him.
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AJ, 6 Jan 2011 @ 4:13am

I don't get...
I really don't understand how these guys think that the cat is somehow going to go back in the bag. It's been proven time and again that they can't stop P2P, they can't even put a dent in it! So instead of fighting the people that have the money they want, why not just figure out a way to make money from them while giving them what they want?
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 5:03am

Re: I don't get...
AJ, you cannot think of it as solely a technical issue. On technical terms, they can (and have in the past) made P2P hard. Deep packet inspection and various restricting devices can certainly put a major dent in P2P activities.

What is more at issue is a mentality. There is a whole generation (and I suspect you are part of it) that is in the 13 to 25 year old bracket right now, that has grown up without the concept of paying for music, except as something "stupid people do". Social pressure, peer pressure, and peer exposure has changed this group's view of how to obtain and listen to music. They have huge Ipods and MP3 players with tens of thousands of songs on them, few if any of them paid for. They all rush to go online to their favorite secret P2P places to try to be the first to download the latest auto-tune masterpiece. None of them considers to rush to a record store or to Itunes to buy it. They all rush to download it for free. Only suckers pay for music.

When you look at how many years it has taken to convince the majority of people that drinking and driving is bad, and look at how many people are still hurt and killed by drunk drivers, you will understand that technical means are not enough. There was profound social change when Napster came around, and there will be profound social change when the internet is no longer quite as free as it has been (and that change is already coming... consider the implications of the Sandy Bridge series of graphics processors (release noted here http://mashable.com/2011/01/05/intel-unveils-its-next-generation-core-processors-live/ ). These are high end graphics that everyone will want, and they are also DRM enabled. Change is coming down the road, where people will trade off "free content" for "incredible performance"), and will leave the piracy to a significantly smaller group of people.

The times they are a-changing, but TD hasn't noticed yet. The golden age of get it all for free is soon to be over. Someone else referred to them as "freetards", and I think their day in the sun is all be done.
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Joe (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 5:04am

Re: Re:
And you certainly wouldn't sue the customers that you could detect. Otherwise, there would be another reason you couldn't detect customers: there wouldn't be any there. ;)
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Joe (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 5:08am

Re: Re: I don't get...
There will be ways around the DRM embedded in processors. Throughout history, every new means to lock or control something has been defeated. Those who realize that and made the necessary adjustments will survive; the businesses who rely on the DRM will not.
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Joe (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 5:13am

Re:
The two are not the same thing but just to play along, I'd say that the grocery stores that rely on their "obsolete business practices" would be out of business before long...because they didn't adapt to the ever-changing world we live in.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 5:13am

Re:
If there was an invisibility cloak in real life, as there can be online, I wonder if Masnick would tell all grocery stores to drop their "obsolete business practices" because of their losses from shoplifting...

But it's not an invisibility cloak - it's a replicator that enables you to make copies of the stuff in the shop.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 5:23am

Re: Re: I don't get...
"On technical terms, they can (and have in the past) made P2P hard. Deep packet inspection and various restricting devices can certainly put a major dent in P2P activities."

Encryption will fix that. Steganography can lend a hand to make P2P traffic seem more innocent too.

"What is more at issue is a mentality. There is a whole generation (and I suspect you are part of it) that is in the 13 to 25 year old bracket right now, that has grown up without the concept of paying for music, except as something "stupid people do""

I resent that. I pay for music. But I also understand that, those that choose not to adapt will die. Natural selection works, and I have no sympathy toward those who (stupidly) try to row against the tide.

"consider the implications of the Sandy Bridge series of graphics processors (release noted here http://mashable.com/2011/01/05/intel-unveils-its-next-generation-core-processors-live/ ). These are high end graphics that everyone will want, and they are also DRM enabled"

Two things:

1- HDCP was developed by Intel. It was cracked. Nuff said.

2- Good Luck pushing that hardware to every user. My humble dual core 3GHZ can handle everything I throw at it. I won't be changing any time soon and I suspect neither will people in general. There are other chip manufacturers that aren't quite as stupid (and can do long division properly, wink wink, nudge nudge).

"Change is coming down the road, where people will trade off "free content" for "incredible performance"), and will leave the piracy to a significantly smaller group of people."

Moore's law is dying slowly. Current hardware performance is acceptable and, unlike 10 years ago, you don't need to upgrade your computer every 3 month just to "try" to keep up with technology. People WILL NOT trade a tiny performance upgrade for their freedom.

Also, in this day and age, "incredible performance" is slowly being traded for cloud-like applications. Everything is moving away from local computers and more into the Internet. Therefore, soon, you won't need a super computer at home anymore. And, unfortunately for you, it will be even easier to *gasp* share stuff.

"The golden age of get it all for free is soon to be over. Someone else referred to them as "freetards", and I think their day in the sun is all be done."

The Internet was born to exchange information. The moment it stops being able to do that, it dies.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 5:26am

Re: Re: I don't get...
You clearly don't understand anything about computer security if you believe this will work.

HDCP is already broken so extra security at any other stage of the process is moot.

You need to re4ad the Argonne Security Maxims

esp. The Arrogance Maxim and the Ignorance is Bliss maxim.
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TPBer, 6 Jan 2011 @ 5:30am

Time Warner
TWC has been sending out copyright infringement letters over the last year, and those who do not know, ATT seems to mind their own biz when it comes to what you DL. I personally helped dozens convert to the Uverse option, 45/mo for 12Mb, dedicated DL, not that shared crap from cable. The only downfall is service coverage.
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PaulT (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 5:37am

Re: Re: I don't get...
Ah, another foolish post I see...

"On technical terms, they can (and have in the past) made P2P hard."

Then why is it constantly increasing? Why is it still so easy?

"What is more at issue is a mentality."

I love this paragraph. Groaning about the damn kids, making unfounded assumptions about who you're talking to, and seeing everything in black & white only. Nobody pays for some music and downloads other music, no sir, it's all or nothing!

"There was profound social change when Napster came around"

...and here's the crux of your misunderstanding. The point is this: there was NO social change. People have been sharing music for all of history, and copying it as soon as that was possible. Everybody who grew up in the 70s and 80s witnessed tape trading, which changed to CDs in the 90s. When I couldn't afford to buy music when I was a young kid, I just taped it from the radio. That didn't stop me paying for it when I started earning money.

The only thing that Napster did was to remove the barriers that stopped people from accessing everything they wished. Only one of those barriers was cost and, 12 years later, the morons running the show still haven't worked out that they need to remove the other barriers. Fighting "piracy" won't work while the "pirates" still offer a superior product to most people. They need to try the carrot along with the stick for a change...

"These are high end graphics that everyone will want, and they are also DRM enabled."

1. There is no such thing, and never will be any such thing as unbreakable DRM.

2. For this to be even remotely effective, everybody has to have one. While non-DRMed processors exist, people will just use them to "pirate". In the meantime, the DRM will only inconvenience legal users, and increase the demand for a crack. It will be broken long before it has the chance to be effective.

3. I don't want them. I suspect many others don't care either, just as many don't care about 3D, Blu-ray and other new technologies.

"The times they are a-changing, but TD hasn't noticed yet."

Funny, I see TD report on it every single day. The tides just aren't going in the direction that you and your ilk seem to wish.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 6:05am

Re:
CULTURE HARD!!!
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senshikaze (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 6:08am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
and it's turtles all the way down.
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Berenerd (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 6:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Perhaps he is behind the dead birds and fish....

Just sayin....
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Bruce Ediger (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 6:25am

Re: Time Warner
I think you've hit on an important distinction between groups of ISPs. Time Warner, as the name suggests, has content-provider roots. AT&T used to be a bunch of Baby Bells, a phone company.

The ISPs with a phone company background tend *not* to care what you download, the ISPs with a content provider or cable company history tend to care a lot more. This is true in my city (Denver) where Comcast puts blocks on TCP ports like 25, 22, 80, etc so people can't run a server on conventional TCP ports. Qwest, a phone company, does not do this. They don't care.
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dave blevins (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 6:38am

tit for tat
Where's "out" (not allowed any more accusations) on the side of the claimer of sharing being wrong 3 times?
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Hephaestus (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 6:57am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"The bet I have with Masnick is that the recent ICE seizures will stand; he believes they will not."

I am pretty sure the EFF is going to get involved on the hip hop blog side, and the guy from torrent-finder.??? has hired a lawyer. So not much hope if the seizures are challenged on first, fourth, and fourteenth amendment basis they will fail to stand.
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Richard (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 7:04am

Re: Re: I don't get...
The times they are a-changing, but TD hasn't noticed yet. The golden age of get it all for free is soon to be over.

"what are we going to do tonight Brain?"
"What we do every night Pinky, try to take over the world."
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 7:11am

Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
Paul, as always, you show a near grasping of issues, but in the end, you fail.

Then why is it constantly increasing? Why is it still so easy?

Actually, P2P traffic isn't increasing as it was, that is first off. The reasons why it isn't "working" is because there have been objections based on issues of Net Neutrality. Otherwise, companies such as comcast would have long since turned the power up on full time deep packet inspection and detection methods, and would have slowed P2P to a crawl. They did it before, and they did it again.

As for someone else's suggestion that encryption would fix it, you need to understand that these things aren't just based on what is in the packet, but things like packet velocity, direction, connections, and the like. You can try to hide the stuff as encrypted port 80 traffic, but in the end, the patterns are wrong and easily detectable. It isn't just one sort of thing that makes the traffic detectable.

The point is this: there was NO social change. People have been sharing music for all of history, and copying it as soon as that was possible. Everybody who grew up in the 70s and 80s witnessed tape trading, which changed to CDs in the 90s. When I couldn't afford to buy music when I was a young kid, I just taped it from the radio. That didn't stop me paying for it when I started earning money.

There is still significant social change. When you taped it from the radio (and many of us did, including me) you traded off quality and completeness for having something to listen to. You usually had to chop it off to avoid station promos and overruns to the next song. There was plenty of motivation to buy the real thing, because what you had was an inferior copy, with poorer, compressed sound quality.

Now, the copies are perfect, FLAC, lossless, sometimes better than what is sold online and on the CD. It is endless, it is fast, and it is free. Once you have the perfect copy, there is no reason to buy one. A whole generation has learned this well. Now they don't buy.

In the meantime, the DRM will only inconvenience legal users, and increase the demand for a crack.

Actually, it is the lead in for a new service that Intel will be pushing for content delivery. It is something that is coming, like it or not. As more and more of it goes "to the cloud", the content will be controlled as such.

Funny, I see TD report on it every single day. The tides just aren't going in the direction that you and your ilk seem to wish.

This is the funniest comment of all, it is a self-contradictory statement. If TD isn't talking about it (and they are not, except to make derogatory comments about the ideas), then you will never know about it. TD doesn't address issues that go against the grain, unless they have some way to run it down and point out some glaring error that is often meaningless. So if you are using this place as an indication of the tide, you aren't getting the whole story.
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Jay (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 7:22am

3 strikes piracy
Here's something to wonder...

What exactly are people railing against when they rail against piracy? Do people honestly believe that a song is actually worth $1? That's a made up number for value if I ever saw one.

It's funny how people continue to say that piracy is killing the industry. But what industry(s) exactly, and how?

How does downloading a song or listening to it through a streaming service hurt an industry?

If anything, the copyright law is hurting far more people than someone's personal downloads ever could. It gets even more complicated when people create something new out of the old songs.

So I guess the question is two fold...

What is the "piracy" people want to stop and if possible is it more harm than good?

(I have my own opinions but I love to hear others as well.)
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 7:42am

Man your ads suck. They take forever to load. Boo on low bandwidth Video Ads from overloaded servers. Boo.
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PaulT (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 7:47am

Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
"Paul, as always, you show a near grasping of issues, but in the end, you fail."

You're yet to offer a response to me that doesn't consist of unsubstantiated opinion. Please, prove me "wrong" with facts whenever you wish to present them.

"Actually, P2P traffic isn't increasing as it was, that is first off."

Which probably has nothing to do with the measures taken against it, but rather that everybody who wants to use it already is.

"The reasons why it isn't "working" is because there have been objections based on issues of Net Neutrality."

Which is a very, very good thing.

"When you taped it from the radio (and many of us did, including me) you traded off quality and completeness for having something to listen to."

So? It was still an infringing activity. Nice of you to admit that you used to pirate for the same basic reasons that today's kids do, though.

"Now, the copies are perfect, FLAC, lossless, sometimes better than what is sold online and on the CD."

Hmmm... a total misconception and an identification of one of the things wrong with the industry!

First off, while FLAC is available, most people don't care that much. They'd rather have the small file size of a 128/192k MP3 than the higher sound quality. Most people listen to music via computer/TV speakers or earbuds, so they wouldn't notice the difference anyway.

But, still, don't you see the problem here? The labels are the ones with the original masters, the "pirates" aren't. So, why the hell are the "pirates" offering higher quality merchandise? If people "pirate" to get the FLAC, that's a failing of the labels for not offering it for sale.

"A whole generation has learned this well. Now they don't buy."

So, nobody who came of age post-Napster ever buys music? The only people who buy music are those who grew up pre-Napster? Do you have a cite, or is that just pulled from your arse again?

"Actually, it is the lead in for a new service that Intel will be pushing for content delivery. It is something that is coming, like it or not. As more and more of it goes "to the cloud", the content will be controlled as such."

...and if people don't want their product? Besides, I notice that you didn't address the rest of my point (that it will be cracked within the time that it takes to reach a point where it is effective).

"TD doesn't address issues that go against the grain, unless they have some way to run it down and point out some glaring error that is often meaningless. So if you are using this place as an indication of the tide, you aren't getting the whole story."

Please give an example of an issue that was ignored by TD, but indicates that the tide is turning in the way you think it is. Preferably with provable facts, not opinions or estimates of what some industry shill thinks should be happening, rather than what is happening.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 7:50am

If the RIAA had a real method of dealing with the ISP's, other than being a big bully, maybe a real plan would emerge.
What good would it do anyway. Are they going to blacklist you from all ISP's or only the one you are using? I have 3 in my area.
I have never had an ISP ask me for ID to open an internet account and they don't run credit checks except for the stupid cell phone companies.
So make up a name and order it from someone else. Blacklisting doesn't work in a competitive, capitalist society anyway. The ISP wants the money from that over inflated rate for internet.
What happens (it's inevitable) when one of the RIAA executives land on the list and is banned from the internet?
Cool. Restrictive Fascist methods only create warfare. Got your gun?
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Gabriel Tane (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 8:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Paul- look above and below your response." Umm... the posts above and below his responses are yours.
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Gabriel Tane (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 8:20am

Re: Re: I don't get...
"The times they are a-changing, but TD hasn't noticed yet. The golden age of get it all for free is soon to be over. Someone else referred to them as "freetards", and I think their day in the sun is all be done."
Any source for this? Or is it just your opinion? And please don't tell me you're basing this off the article in Wired.

And are you joining the call-them-"freetards" bandwagon? Just curious.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 8:23am

I never really thought of my dad as a Pirate but in hindsight I think he was on the bleeding edge in the early 70's. He worked for Raytheon and the sent us out to the Marshall Islands. Back then there was no TV service out in the middle of the ocean and only armed forces radio. He bought 2- 4 track reel to reel tape players and there was a "tape club" on the island. I think each tape held 4 albums and by the time we came back stateside he had a couple of hundred tapes.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 8:26am

Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
As for someone else's suggestion that encryption would fix it, you need to understand that these things aren't just based on what is in the packet, but things like packet velocity, direction, connections, and the like. You can try to hide the stuff as encrypted port 80 traffic, but in the end, the patterns are wrong and easily detectable. It isn't just one sort of thing that makes the traffic detectable.

I will try to be civil since you clearly don't understand the tech behind it.

Deep packet inspection is a fingerprinting system based on statistics that don't reach 70% in the best case scenario against encrypted traffic, so it is not easily detectable and that claim is just hilarious to people in the field.
The faster way to cripple statistic analysis one just need to do multiple things at the same time and bye bye your deep packet inspection capabilities to detect anything, the easy way to do it is just to start playing some online radio and voila, deep packet inspections that cost millions is now worthless.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 8:33am

Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
Now, the copies are perfect, FLAC, lossless, sometimes better than what is sold online and on the CD. It is endless, it is fast, and it is free. Once you have the perfect copy, there is no reason to buy one. A whole generation has learned this well. Now they don't buy.

Today you trade also, the most download formats are MP3, the most download videos are compressed and look like VHS, besides some people just download for the heck of it because they don't really are buying 1 or 2 Terabyte HDD's a year to store everything they download from the internet there is no space in there.

Actually, it is the lead in for a new service that Intel will be pushing for content delivery. It is something that is coming, like it or not. As more and more of it goes "to the cloud", the content will be controlled as such.

Well not true, I can just use legal alternatives that don't have DRM and they keep poping up everyday, what will you do when nobody follow? cry?

you aren't getting the whole story.

So I should get it from you right?
The guy that would sue me, call me names and finance extortionists schemes?

Right...
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 8:56am

Re: Re: I don't get...
Wow AMD most be laughing hard by now!
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 9:03am

Re: Re: I don't get...
Next generation Intel DRM chip LoL

You got dupped dude LoL

hahahahaha, oh Jesus LoL

It is just for streaming media that they own the stream, it ain't gonna stop any piracy that it is outside their control LoL

Besides AMD is just around the corner waiting for Intel to drop the ball not to mention that Chinese manufacturers would love it too, remember when Intel tried to put a serial number in every microchip? They had to back off.

Just read the future release about how quietly DRM was dropped because of bad sales performance.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 9:28am

Comcast might note that against the three strikes rule the ISP where I live one of the smaller ones is owned mostly by comcast.

I don't know if that necessarily means comcast is going to that system but it is being implemented here where I live. I have a letter sent out by the ISP here.

That talks about the three strikes and you are off the internet. If the bigger companies got on board with this it would be a problem.

A example where I live you pretty much use that ISP or nothing at all so any one who does get kicked off of it is screwed.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 9:52am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
You didn't read the whole statement. There are plenty of things possible, deep packet inspection (even when encrypted) is one of those things. Clearly you don't have experience in networking, otherwise you would understand that different types of traffic have different patterns, and even if you try to do "more than one thing at a time" even a very basic system would be able to seperate out your actions.

Deep packet inspection in and of itself isn't the be all and end all, but part of the process.

Basically, you can run, but you can't hide. The people pushing P2P protocols know that.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 9:58am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
You're yet to offer a response to me that doesn't consist of unsubstantiated opinion. Please, prove me "wrong" with facts whenever you wish to present them.

"Actually, P2P traffic isn't increasing as it was, that is first off."

Which probably has nothing to do with the measures taken against it, but rather that everybody who wants to use it already is.

You make this too easy. You said it was going up, now you admit it's going down. Waffle much?

So, nobody who came of age post-Napster ever buys music? The only people who buy music are those who grew up pre-Napster? Do you have a cite, or is that just pulled from your arse again?

You are attempting to create an absolute where none is implied. Some of them buy music. Some of them watch 30 year old episodes of MASH. That doesn't make it mainstream. The vast majority of the younger age just don't see music as something to buy. TD is on about it all the time, that the music industry is being propped up by older people who still buy music, not the younger generation.

Please give an example of an issue that was ignored by TD, but indicates that the tide is turning in the way you think it is.

The best example is that concert ticket sales dropped in 2010, 12% or more, and concert ticket prices in 2011 are forecast to drop dramatically. That doesn't even touch issues like cancelled tours due to lack of sales, and so on.

Another great example was the increase in recorded music sales as reported by BMI for the year. That was brushed off as an aberation. It may be an indication that things have changed.

There is plenty of stuff out there that is contrary to the goals of TD. They never make it onto TD, or if they do, they are immediately dismissed as shill information. It's not surprising to see.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 10:13am

If three strikes happen, i will use my VPN to seed every movie i can find, if its comcast that did it i will find all NBC shows just seed them
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Gabriel Tane (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 10:42am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
"The best example is that concert ticket sales dropped in 2010, 12% or more, and concert ticket prices in 2011 are forecast to drop dramatically. That doesn't even touch issues like cancelled tours due to lack of sales, and so on. "
Butting in here... if the price of tickets are forecast to drop in 2011, how does that have anything to do with whether or not piracy and sharing are on the decline? If anything, I would think it has more to do with the reduction in ridiculous fees tacked on by ticketing agents and the realization by acts that fans don't want to pay ludicrous amounts of money for a show.
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TPBer, 6 Jan 2011 @ 10:58am

Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
"Actually, P2P traffic isn't increasing as it was, that is first off..."

I want some of you weed, that's the only way you can state this and actually believe it.

p2p is so fast now that with the proper bandwidth (24Mb) and client I get 2.7MB/sec.

Guess thats slow to you but to some of us that's rather respectable.
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chris (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 11:29am

Re:
I wonder if Masnick would tell all grocery stores to drop their "obsolete business practices" because of their losses from shoplifting...

if grocery stores sold a product that it was effortless to steal and the risk of getting caught was so low that it was considered risk free, then yes i would strongly encourage a grocery to stop selling that product.

recorded media is a product that is effortless to obtain illegally, the illegal product is vastly superior in quality, features, and convenience when compared to the legal variety, and it gets distributed on a global scale by people with practically zero chance of being punished.

why on earth is anyone still selling recorded media?
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herodotus (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 11:54am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
"The vast majority of the younger age just don't see music as something to buy. TD is on about it all the time, that the music industry is being propped up by older people who still buy music, not the younger generation."

You are making a statement about the beliefs of 'the vast majority of the younger age'?

There is absolutely no evidence to back this statement up. There couldn't be.

How can an adult (I assume you are an adult?) make such an obviously vacuous claim?
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 12:43pm

Re:
So, now we finally know who to blame for destroying music forever.
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Gabriel Tane (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 1:21pm

Re: Re:
I thought modern cookie-cutter-pop (et al) destroyed it.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:03pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
You are selling deep packet equipment aren't you?

Only those people are trying to seel that snake oil product to others.

Because if you had any understanding of network traffic you would know that patterns in traffic can be changed rendering your precious deep packet inspection useless.

Not only people can hide it, they can make it so that you don't know who is sending what to whom.

Ever heard of TOR? Retroshare, Share, Winny, StealthNet, GNUNet, I2P, Freenet, Netsukuku, Osiris, Omemo, Herbivore(that was created to counter-act the government Carnivore) and others?

Care to explain how deep packet inspection helps in those cases, please make me laugh.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:08pm

Re:
Whatever you do remember this.

DON'T PAY THEM EVER!

If you go with legal alternatives that is the best route, but if you must just don't pay them ever, it is time to show them who is in charge.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:21pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
That's not true at all. You can run and hide!
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PaulT (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
"You make this too easy. You said it was going up, now you admit it's going down. Waffle much?"

Hmmm... I don't see where I said it was going down. I agreed that it "wasn't increasing as it was", which in my mind is consistant with the fact that the increase has slowed. Where did I say it was going down?

"You are attempting to create an absolute where none is implied."

But, you did imply it, whether you intended to or not.

"TD is on about it all the time, that the music industry is being propped up by older people who still buy music, not the younger generation."

IF that is true (citation please), it may not be due to downloads. You claim that young people simply download instead of buying. That's a positive claim you're yet to back up, while there's many explanations other than "they're downloading instead of paying".

"The best example is that concert ticket sales dropped in 2010"

Strange. I thought we were discussing your claims about P2P, and you present an argument about concert sales? Vaguely related, I suppose, but I don't see how that's related to your claim that "The golden age of get it all for free is soon to be over". But, to address your point anyway...

"12% or more"

I'd heard a much lower figure. Once again, I'd be interested in a cite for your figures if you have one.

"That doesn't even touch issues like cancelled tours due to lack of sales, and so on."

Wait a second. How? How can figures for a drop in sales not include drops due to cancelled events?

"Another great example was the increase in recorded music sales as reported by BMI for the year."

Amusingly, I've answered this point in an earlier thread. P2P, as far as I'm aware, did not drop significantly in the UK in 2009 (the period that the figures reported covered). What did happen, however, was that toward the end of 2008, 7digital was finally allowed to sell from all major labels, Amazon was finally allowed to offer MP3s to UK customers and Spotify was launched.

An interesting correlation, and one that depended on the labels actually servicing their customers instead of "cracking down" on "piracy". The point I've been trying to make all along, while you morons accused me of "piracy".

"There is plenty of stuff out there that is contrary to the goals of TD. They never make it onto TD, or if they do, they are immediately dismissed as shill information. It's not surprising to see."

Then cite something that's actually relevant to the P2P discussion you started, please.
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Joe (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:36pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
Or that people just don't like a lot of the stuff coming out these days.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:37pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
and even if you try to do "more than one thing at a time" even a very basic system would be able to seperate out your actions.

Not what security researches found out recently.

Users can guard against this type of fingerprint-based eavesdropping relatively easily, Herrmann noted. Downloading or requesting more than one site at a time through the network will muddy the pattern enough that certainty will be very difficult for the eavesdropper to establish.

Source:Wired: Flaws Spotlighted in Tor Anonymity Network

If DPI can magically identify encrypted traffic tell us all how it will identify traffic that is obfuscated?

Even for Internet access, where there is not a per-packet charge, ISPs make statistical assumption that connections from user sites will not be busy 100% of the time. The user cannot simply increase the bandwidth of the link, since masking would fill that as well. If masking, which often can be built into end-to-end encryptors, becomes common practice, ISPs will have to change their traffic assumptions.

Source:Wikipedia

Traffic Analysis will ultimately lead to people using filler packets to make the stream uniform defeating your precious DPI.

It will be bad for ISP's to keep pushing this, because they will need to invest more to keep pace with the demand.

Bet you didn't thought of that.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:53pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
How can an adult (I assume you are an adult?) make such an obviously vacuous claim?

I learned how to do it on TD. Many of the posts here are based on it.

My comments are based on experiences I have in dealing with people in that group (many of them) and realizing they all feel the same way. They actually get mad at me if I want to buy music. They tell me I am stupid, "nobody pays for that stuff".
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 2:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
"12% or more"

I'd heard a much lower figure. Once again, I'd be interested in a cite for your figures if you have one.

I had the story, submitting it to TD, and it got ignored. I didn't bookmark it.

However, poking around can find you stories like:

http://www.chartattack.com/news/2010/nov/04/concert-attendance-among-youth-down-by-more-tha n-half

or

http://eveningbox.com/2010/12/north-america-concert-attendance-down-244/

or

ht tp://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/concert-promoters-cut-ticket-prices-65795

"In fact, concert attendance fell 12 percent in the first half of 2010 compared to the same period a year ago, according to trade magazine Pollstar."

I hope this helps you out.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 3:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
Things change? Over time? Wha-huh?
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PaulT (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 3:23pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
Nice, you ignore most of my points yet again, in favour of the ones you can make a pithy comment about.

"fell 12 percent in the first half"

Hmmm... yes... in the FIRST HALF. What about the second half? Only one of your links even considers the entirety of 2010. Not only that, but the very next paragraph in the quoted article offers an explanation that has nothing to do with your preferred assumption of piracy causing all the problems:

"North American concert ticket prices rose from an average $26 in 1996 to a peak of $67 in 2008, an increase four times faster than inflation"

Hmmm... wonder why prices might be dropping during a major depression?

The other 2 links you post are pretty much opinion pieces, It's telling that you link to blog posts as cites, rather than the primary sources. Even accepting that, the figures claimed between the three of them vary wildly. A poor citation, really.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 4:17pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
BTW traffic masking is what the DOD uses to secure its network.

If the army can hide what makes you think the people can't?

I don't believe you understand what you are trying to discuss, or you would know the limitations of the technology you are talking about.

Basically people can hide, will hide and get away with it and there is nothing you can do about it.

Other countries(i.e. China, Iran and Russia) tried harder than the U.S. and failed is just naive to think it can be stopped.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 5:39pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
Actually, if you took a minute to read the other links, you would see that it is indicated that attendance full year dropped 26%.

But you knew that, right?

The other 2 links you post are pretty much opinion pieces, It's telling that you link to blog posts as cites, rather than the primary sources. Even accepting that, the figures claimed between the three of them vary wildly. A poor citation, really.

So good enough for TD posts, but not good enough in the comments? Wow, nice double standard.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 5:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
Please to read again:

Deep packet inspection in and of itself isn't the be all and end all, but part of the process.

I think you have all of the answer there. Each of these "products" would have their own unique finger print of activity, packet size, velocity, connection points, etc. It isn't simple, it isn't just "oh look, there goes a p2p packet", but it is pretty much as plain as the nose on your face when you see it.

... and no, I don't sell deep packet equipment. But I have seen it in action.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Jan 2011 @ 7:04pm

Deep packet inspection in and of itself isn't the be all and end all, but part of the process.

A process that depends on knowing what it is happening and since DPI is no longer useful to reach that goal the rest is useless what part of that you don't understand?

Since people can make those fingerprints disapear how would you track anything?

People can't magically inspect encrypted traffic, you can't look inside so you are left with analyzing the traffic patterns that can be masked like the army does, so basically all your talk is just BS, you know nothing about networks and security and is trying to talk the talk and failing, you can't even find a research proving your point because there is none, but there is lots of research to show you how wrong you are.

Not only can people hide they can become anonymous, now show everybody here with technical terms how will you identify traffic from encrypted, masked, anonymous networks?

Can you come up with the proof that you can?
You can watch the network but you can't inspect it, the only thing you will see is data going up and down without knowing what it is and were it is originating from and you keep insinuating you got some miracle solution that will make that possible, that is BS, you know it, I know it and everybody knows it.
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PaulT (profile), 6 Jan 2011 @ 11:39pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
"Actually, if you took a minute to read the other links, you would see that it is indicated that attendance full year dropped 26%."

If you're talking about the eveningbox.com link, that's pretty light on information. They don't link their sources, but refer to Billboard, suggesting that they're only looking at major label tours rather than the industry as a whole. They only talk about North American tours rather than worldwide (some major artists did tours that didn't visit North America), and there's no indication of methodology. I also have no idea who Eveningbox are, so I'm not prepared to take their claims at face value.

Do you have any actual figures, or just blog posts you found in a half-assed Google search?

I also can't help but notice that - yet again - you refuse to answer the main points I raise. In this case, you still have not presented me with any information regarding P2P, which was what the discussion was originally about.

"So good enough for TD posts, but not good enough in the comments? Wow, nice double standard."

Mike usually links to pieces that at least link back to their sources. Besides, when did TD tell me I was "wrong"? You made this claim, and I'm asking you to prove it. Blog posts commenting on other blog posts that contain no links back to where data came from are not good enough to do that.

In response to my challenge for you to prove me "wrong" about P2P, you presented me with 3 blog posts about concert tickets, pretending they prove something about 2010 revenue (irrelevant to our original discussion). Not only that, but you claimed that they proved something about the 2010 market, while only one of those posts even considers the full 2010 market vs. the 2009 market. No, that's not good enough.
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sam sin, 7 Jan 2011 @ 1:44pm

the biggest joke about this is, the 3 strikes system that is wanted by the US (mainly) entertainment industries is being implemented in other countries, after having great pressure and threats issued to them, but it is not happening in USA. now why is that, i wonder?
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Richard (profile), 8 Jan 2011 @ 2:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get...
There are plenty of things possible, deep packet inspection (even when encrypted) is one of those things.

Currently you can't break the encryption so you have no way of telling the difference between an infringing movie download and an innocent Linux distro.
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