Funniest/Most Insightful Comments Of The Week
from the come-and-get-'em dept
Unlike last week, where we had one user dominate the favorite comments of the week (for both funny and insightful), this week it's back to a bit more normal, with the tops in each being separate. Leading the "insightful" crew (by a wide margin) was The Infamous Joe, whose comment on the story of Phil Mocek winning his legal battle against the TSA (where he was arrested for not showing ID and for filming his interactions) really seemed to strike a nerve with people. He was responding to someone who asked why the officers doing the arresting get in some sort of trouble for what turned out to be a bogus arrest. The Infamous Joe responded:The forgiving part of me wants to say that these TSA officers and Law Enforcement Officers were simply ignorant of the law, or confused at what the law really says-- I mean, they can't know the ins and outs of every law. Then, I recall what *every* cop and lawyer and judge will tell you if you break a law you didn't realize you were breaking: Ignorance of the law is no defense. If I, as a non-lawyer, non-law enforcement functionary, am expected to know the laws that bind me such that *not* knowing is a fault on my part, then surely we can hold the very people who are binding us to these laws to the same standard.Apparently folks around here agree and have a problem with double standards in law enforcement officials. Coming in second was Rekrul's post concerning his experience with the drug companies, in our post on how patents are holding back cures for various health problems:
I say they should be held accountable, to the maximum extent of the law. They'd do the same to me.
I have both psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis. For about two years, I took part in a drug trial using Orencia. My arthritis improved to the point where it no longer bothered me and my psoriasis was somewhat improved. Then the company dumped all the trials because they weren't getting the results that they wanted. Even if I wanted to continue taking that drug, I wouldn't be able to because it's not approved for PA. If it was, it would cost me over $4,000 a month!On the "funny" front, we had two comments that came in way above the next tier, and both came from Techdirt regulars. Dark Helmet took the gold with his comment about the new bill to put warning labels on videos games, which made him wonder something:
Now I'm on a new study aimed at psoriasis, which also seems to be helping the arthritis. I'm sure that once this study eventually ends, this drug won't be available for years and will be outrageously expensive as well.
Healthcare in the US isn't about helping people, it's about making the drug companies richer.
I'm still wondering why my enjoyment of Nintendo games as a youngster didn't immediately result in my growing a ridiculous mustache (by cracky) followed by a murderous attitude towards small shell-backed quadripeds.And right behind him with the silver was Marcus Carab's comment in response to the legal ruling that playing Dungeons and Dragons in jail represented "gang activity." Apparently, Marcus plays a mean game of D&D:
It did, however, teach me that no matter how impressive someone's castle, the princess is always elsewhere....
Well I don't know about you, but all the D&D players I know are some of the hardest gangbangers around. You think Gary Gygax died of an aneurysm? No, he was quietly taken out to put an end to his massive organized crime empire. Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings, MS13 - those are all small time. They don't hold a candle to the Wizards of the Coast.Thanks for another great week of interesting (and funny) discussions.
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"making the drug companies richer"
Companies want to make a profit. Why? Because if they don't they will go out of business. Why do they want to make huge profits? Because if they don't then the biggest Wall Street investors won't buy their stocks. Why do the want to make huge profits this quarter. Because if they don't those same investors will start selling their stock and the stockholders will revolt against the board so the board, being the pro-active folks that they are, will start making changes to the management.
So when I read this statement from Rekrul about the drug trial it make me wonder what he'd like to see changed about the system. Does he expect thousands of people to work many man-years and then give the resulting products to him for free? I wonder if he was running one of the drug companies would it be any different?
For that matter, is healthcare a right or a privilege? I don't know the answer even though I've read and talked about it for years. For that matter why should other people pay for things I want or need? Isn't that what we're talking about? There are many sides and many arguments pro and con to this.
So I don't get what was so insightful about Rekrul's comment. In my opinion it add no clarity to any of these questions.
I think we need to look at our society as a whole and its entitlement mentality if we want to ask the right questions. All these companies are run by and owned by people just like us. Just like our government ... they are us.
My goal is to take responsibility for the part I play in creating the world the way it is. Like you, I am responsible. With this responsibility comes the power to make changes ... to make the world the way I want it. I do this by what I create, how I treat others, what I buy, what I give and how I earn my living.
Finally, since both medications improved Rekrul's arthritis, could it be the placebo effect? It is now known to work even when the subject is aware that it is a placebo. Perhaps if he just takes a Tick Tack each day that will help too. I've always wondered why we don't make more use of the placebo effect since it seems to often be effective.
Peace,
Rob:-]
Cassius:
"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings."
Julius Caesar (I, ii, 140-141)
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Re: "making the drug companies richer"
I can't answer for anyone else, but what I would like to see is more people like Jonas Salk.
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Re: "making the drug companies richer"
Do you have the "right" to be covered? Probably not. However, if a man can heal someone and doesn't, he's probably a bad person.
You can always ask if someone has a right to anything. That isn't entitlement mentality, it's just a man asking for relief. He's disgusted that if someone doesn't profit on his relief, he doesn't get relief.
I'm disgusted that you think that's acceptable. Let people suffer, they don't have a right to comfort unless they have the financial resources to insure it.
Luke 6:
Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. ... But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
I don't know if you think the Bible is a decent moral guide or not, but woe to all of us if its true.
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Re: "making the drug companies richer"
The irony on that is that patents where created exactly for that purpose to give it for free the knowledge to all other to use it, that is why explicitly they are short term monopolies.
Also why not have thousands or millions of people working on something and giving away that knowledge for free?
People can then go and do local work on that problem and adapt it to their needs inside their own communities where they can make money, it won't be one giant entity controlling everything it would be a thousand little cells working to make it happen and spreading the benefits into a large surface area is that not good?
Besides I question why do we reward incompetency?
IP laws today give all the benefits to people who mostly are unable to make a susceful product, it doesn't matter how much work one has done, if he doesn't understand the why's he should not be rewarded is like giving a gold medal to someone who work hard on his arms to try and win a race because he worked so hard on his arms, why do we do that?
Why is that a censor tool so dangerous is being used indiscriminately without any supervision whatsoever? Nothing is being done about the abuse to the system despite it showing clear signs that it is not helping, jobs are not being created, wealth is shifted to other regions, so why are people hanging on to that believe when everyone can see whith their own eyes it is not working?
Could we do it better?
Yes we can, we could enable a cooperative system where everybody has an interest in maintaining research and development where all the knowledge is spread and the benefits are local is called open source system and it works. No doubt those other people will try and stop it, but seriously, the people should get all those old expired patents for medicines and start producing them in their houses, because they don't have the money to pay for the new ones and they are suffering, when that happens you will see so M.F. from big pharma try to pass laws outlawing the practice and then you will ask if they don't have the right to do so?
That aside there is the question of companies infiltrating the government to change laws and raise the bar so high that almost anybody else is not able to enter, is like living under a communist state where all the power is centralized in the hands of a few that make all the decisions for others, this lead to very bad economic consequences in those communists states that only got better when they opened up and here we are doing the exact opposite of what needs to be done, I don't understand that, I know why it happens I just don't get it how those people could care so less about their own country to the point of leaving it bear naked and going to another land when that one is exhausted.
I want capitalism back the way it supposed to be, I love it, and I fear no competitor I can hold my own little piece of the market, what I don't need is a law saying I cannot produce something or dumping a mile deep set of regulations that I can't fallow without enormous resources.
You want entitlement how about getting those lazy butts of the chair and start doing some real work instead of sending a private army to enforce the market?
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Re: "making the drug companies richer"
- Take a patent and sit on it to stop others from making a competing product that could harm some other product bottom line? Many companies just take a patent on things that could turn their other products into something less attractive and sit on it.
- Horde patents and wait until somebody tries to sell something similar?
- In the name of profits stop research and development unless they get paid.
- Try to game the system and extend patents through known loopholes, like patenting the same shit with minor modifications and retaining the patent on that.
- Lobby congress to change laws in detriment of society and the market.
You are ok with all of that?
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Re: Re: Re: "making the drug companies richer"
- Lobby congress to change laws in detriment of society and the market.
Eli Lilly and the Bush Family
That is not the only thing in there about lobbying and improper behavior.
Source:Wikipedia: Eli Lilly Controversy
Source:Brand-Name Generic Deals Face End of the Line
- Try to game the system and extend patents through known loopholes, like patenting the same shit with minor modifications and retaining the patent on that.
Source:Wikipedia AstraZeneca Controversies
- In the name of profits stop research and development unless they get paid.
Source:Move to end drug deals with generic rivals
The practice of suing your rivals to stall generics from entering the market may end soon.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: "making the drug companies richer"
The H.R. 1706: Protecting Consumer Access to Generic Drugs Act of 2009 never became law.
The practice of will continue for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: "making the drug companies richer"
S. 27: A bill to prohibit brand name drug companies from compensating generic drug companies to delay
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Re: Re: Re: Re: "making the drug companies richer"
Inside links to FT.com do not work. However, you quotes seem to refer once again to proposed laws that don't seem to be getting passed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "making the drug companies richer"
True, but your assertions here just went all the way around the world! Wanna see it again?
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Re: "making the drug companies richer"
To be perfectly honest, I don't how to make the system work. All I know is that it's too expensive to get sick in the US (I don't know about other countries).
Before I started the drug trial, I had several joints that were swollen and painful. The worst was my left ankle, which made walking very difficult. There were times when I couldn't put any weight on it at all. More than once, I literally hopped down the hall to the bathroom on one foot. Even when I could walk on it, I had a permanent limp. I don't have insurance and couldn't afford any of the drugs that would have helped me.
A couple years ago, it felt like I was having a heart attack and since it was the weekend, my doctor sent me to the ER. I was there for most of the day while they ran tests (and couldn't find anything wrong). I'm still paying off the $4,400 bill. I then had to see a cardiologist which cost me another $1,500 for two visits and some tests. If I'd needed any kind of an operation, I would probably have had to sell everything I own and ended up on welfare just to live.
I have a friend who would probably be dead now if his sister hadn't been paying for his medical insurance a few years ago when his doctor discovered, after a heart attack, that he had a blocked artery. There's no way he would have been able to afford the $40,000 it cost to open up the artery.
I don't know what the solution is, but I know that the current system sucks for the average person while the medical industry profits.
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How about the "Most Reported" comment?
Also, I'd like to propose that you have a pseudonym generator, and instead of "Anonymous Coward", you have the comment-handling-code assign a nom-de-plume to anonymous posters. It's quite confusing to deal with all the Anonymous Cowards. The gravatars have been quite a success in revealing trolls using multiple pseudonyms, so a nom-de-plume generator might have a similar effect.
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placebo
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Re: placebo
I'm not necessarily saying that these drugs shouldn't have been made available to Rekrul if he wished them to be (and if someone was willing to produce and sell them to him). While I do believe in health freedoms (provided that people are informed of the potential risks of what they are taking or of the fact that there is no long term research to know the long term risks), that's not to say that the drug approval process is not important (though it is often plagued with politics and abuse).
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Re: Re: placebo
The Orencia was only mildly effective on my psoriasis. Only a few of the spots cleared up completely and the remaining ones were still pretty red and scaly. It did get worse when I went off it at the end of the study, with several new spots appearing. I was mainly on the study for my arthritis though. The new drug, CP-690 seems to be having a much greater effect on the psoriasis. All the spots are lighter and hardly scaly at all, and a few have almost vanished. It doesn't seem to be having the same miracle results on the arthritis though. My right knee is still slightly more swollen and stiff than normal. Of course neither knee has been exactly "normal" in years...
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Re: placebo
I was mostly taking it for the arthritis, and I could have only been given placebo during the first six months of the trial. After that, it was "open label" where I was guaranteed to be given the real drug. Even after the trial ended, neither I nor the doctor was told if I received any placebo. He could only find that out in an emergency. The effect of the drug was so gradual that I really don't remember if I showed much improvement in the first six months or not.
With the new study, there's a chance that I may be getting half placebo, but 50% of the dose is real. At least unless the company is lying about the terms of the study.
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drugs patents and psoriasis
I know it is fashionable to criticize America right now, but where were these cutting edge drug trials? AMERICA. Are drug companies greedy? Sure. But at least it gets us treatments like Orencia.
Patents can be too long, but without them, discoveries would grind to a halt.
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Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
[citation needed]
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Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abatacept
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Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
Are you sure?
Recently Hollywood made a film about one guy that had two daughters or sons that had a rare condition and he did go to great lengths to finance and create a new drug for the disease, in his case he was highly motivated not only by the money but by a personal interest.
Also most companies don't want to develop cures, they want to create treatments that are more profitable that is of course the natural way things are done today, if people want cures or treatments for obscure conditions or diseases they need to find their own ways to do it.
So what you are saying is that the only reason people do things is because of money right?
There is no necessity forcing things to happen, there is no serendipity occurring in research where one study can lead to a findings in other fields?
Really?
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Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
- PatientsLikeMe
- TDI - The Tropical Disease Initiative
- MMV - Medicines for Malaria Venture Open Source Drug Discovery
- Open-source science takes on neglected disease (February, 4 2010)
- Institure for OneWorld Health
Source: Report: Gates grantee OneWorld Health creates new pharma model
Source: The Profits of Nonprofit
- Foldit is a revolutionary new computer game enabling you to contribute to important scientific research. This page describes the science behind Foldit and how your playing can help.
- DNDi - Drugs for Neglected Diseases Initiative
- Patch Adams M.D. & Gesundheit! Institute
- 50 Successful Open Source Projects That Are Changing Medicine
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Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
- PatientsLikeMe
- TDI - The Tropical Disease Initiative
- MMV - Medicines for Malaria Venture Open Source Drug Discovery
- Open-source science takes on neglected disease (February, 4 2010)
- Institure for OneWorld Health
Source: Report: Gates grantee OneWorld Health creates new pharma model
Source: The Profits of Nonprofit
- Foldit is a revolutionary new computer game enabling you to contribute to important scientific research. This page describes the science behind Foldit and how your playing can help.
- DNDi - Drugs for Neglected Diseases Initiative
- Patch Adams M.D. & Gesundheit! Institute
- 50 Successful Open Source Projects That Are Changing Medicine
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Re: Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
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Re: Re: Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
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Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
Fashion has nothing to do with it. It's sensible to criticize it (and many, if not all, other countries) because there is good reason for it.
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Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
Yeah, we've heard that, but empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Look at the precursor to the drug world, which was the chemical and dye industries, and if you look at the latter half of the 19th century, the countries that dominated those markets were the ones *without* patents. Yes, there was a lot of copying that went on, but also a tremendous amount of innovation to stand out from the copycats.
Similar to Italy prior to 1978, when pharma patents were not recognized. Yes, there were lots of copycats, but there was also a thriving Italian pharma industry developing new compounds as well, even without patents.
The claim that you need a patent is simply false. There are plenty of ways to make money.
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Re: Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
Let's start with the easy one: In the 19 century, the time for any serious copying to occur could take years. It could take a single man a couple of years of his life to "go around the world", something most of us now could do within a few days, without much effort (but probably hating airports and airplanes). Information, and thus the ability to replicate, moves faster now than at any other time. What happens in one place is known in other places without hours, if not minutes.
Market domination in a matured market (dyes) is likely that of the most open market, because there is little in the way of new development going on. They can ignore licensing or paying the dye patent owners, and sell anywhere. One of the many reasons places like China (and Japan before it) has spectacular rises from zero to hero. But over time, as their economies start to depend more on their own actual research and development, they become more protective of it.
As for Italy, the same argument can be made today for India. But if you look closely, any work on new compounds is immediately moved out of the country and patent by the parent companies in other places.
Nobody is claiming you "need" a patent, it isn't a physical requirement. However, it is a business case requirement. There are plenty of ways to make money, but none of them would pay these sorts of bills or justify the immense risks of capital, time, and effort to try to get to new medicines.
Italy wasn't an information island. They were taking others' patent work and using it for their "innovation".
Your examples show how your logic works. The first ignores how the dye industry got there, choosing to focus only on the end game after most of the research was completed, and in the other, you look at a single market without looking at it's connection to all other markets.
Short term, both examples make money. Without input and source patents from outside, neither would have existed or been successful. There money was made by ignoring the rights of others.
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Re: Re: Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
No that start to happen when consolidation speeds up and that happens when someone start to make more money then the others, then excluding others is a priority for growth of one entity, which sterilizes the environment, it functions very much like cancer do in reality that is why people keep having bad feelings about it.
You don't need patents for that, to justify all of that you need competition that will make you cry and go out of business if you don't do it, patents grant someone with the ability to not have to worry about competing or improving anything, that is why pharma patents are down and slowing down as IP laws get more rigid, those people don't need to invest heavily, they invest more in public campaigns and lobbying than they do in actual research.
That depends, Italy was the birth place of one of the greatest empires in the whole world that collected knowledge from the 4 corners of the world and made great use of that knowledge, without patents I might add, also Leonardo Da Vinci is from there, the renaissance happened there so they have a big history of great accomplishments over there, further all countries were taking from others and making their own including the U.S. that took everything from Europe up until the second world war, most of the American real technology happened after that and not before, where Europeans where decades ahead of the U.S.
You can say that is true when historically the evidence says that without any protections people created things because of necessity, most industries are formed because of a need not because they are protected, and people keep improving to stay relevant, protections actually served only to stop innovation that is why everybody agrees monopolies are inherently bad.
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Re: Re: Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
And once your competitors see you improving their idea, they are going to copy your improvements right back, and then start working on the next step - or start working on the next big invention in the hopes of getting a head start in the next race too.
Your position seems to be that in the modern world all this happens faster and more efficiently so let's bloody well slow it back down again through artificial means. To me that makes no sense.
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Re: Re: Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
[citation needed]
Techdirt has given many possible ways that could (and have) paid the bills.
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Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
If only money is the reason for people doing things explain these then please:
- PatientsLikeMe
- TDI - The Tropical Disease Initiative
- MMV - Medicines for Malaria Venture Open Source Drug Discovery
- Open-source science takes on neglected disease (February, 4 2010)
- Institure for OneWorld Health
Source: Report: Gates grantee OneWorld Health creates new pharma model
Source: The Profits of Nonprofit
- Foldit is a revolutionary new computer game enabling you to contribute to important scientific research. This page describes the science behind Foldit and how your playing can help.
- DNDi - Drugs for Neglected Diseases Initiative
- Patch Adams M.D. & Gesundheit! Institute
- 50 Successful Open Source Projects That Are Changing Medicine
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Re: Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
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Re: Re: Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
Jan 30th, 2011 @ 7:53pm (first attempt)
Jan 30th, 2011 @ 8:04pm (mistake post attempt, too many tabs open)
Jan 31st, 2011 @ 1:23am (5 hours later, after I saw mike's post which prompted me to assume the other post where never going to appear as it happens sometimes)
Anyways I'm sorry, I apologize for the multiple posts.
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Re: drugs patents and psoriasis
If you read more carefully, it says it's approved for RA, and has shown to improve psoriasis. It doesn't say that it's approved for it, or for psoriatic arthritis though.
I know it is fashionable to criticize America right now, but where were these cutting edge drug trials? AMERICA. Are drug companies greedy? Sure. But at least it gets us treatments like Orencia.
Assuming that you have insurance or can afford the $4,000+ a month it costs. If not, it might as well not exist for you.
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Unfortunately people can't afford it, so I believe they will need to go elsewhere.
A Brazilian researcher confirmed that bee stings can help with arthritis, while explaining the mechanism by which it operates.
Source Bee sting venom could provide treatment for arthritis.
Apitherapy is a fraction of the cost of Orencia.
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Weekend article sumarization
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Re: Weekend article sumarization
Oh, and if you think pleasing and interacting with your "fan-club" is pointless and won't help a business, you really haven't been paying attention.
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Re: Weekend article sumarization
PS- you blow.
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btw, these posts are great
i would wager it does a lot to incentivize intelligent/witty/interesting conversation in comments. all of which keep the engagement high.
i know for myself at least, this is the only site i visit regularly outside of rather than from within my rss reader specifically for the community.
brilliant move.
m3mnoch.
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moral guide
"I don't know if you think the Bible is a decent moral guide or not, but woe to all of us if its true."
While I do believe that God exists, I do not hold people in high esteem who use religion to justify what they do. Here's a nice quote from the Bible. Do you hold with this practice? Why not, if it's such a great moral guide?
Deuteronomy 20:23
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to deaththe girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
Peace,
Rob:-]
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