DailyDirt: Helping People In Boston

from the do-something dept

Mon, Apr 15th 2013 5:01pm — Michael Ho

Apparently, the last mile of the Boston Marathon was dedicated to the Newtown shooting victims, so it seems that much more messed up that participants in the Boston Marathon may need some help due to senseless bombings. Below are just a few helpful links for anyone out there who might need to find loved ones in the Boston area.

The Red Cross has a website for finding people after emergency situations. Unconfirmed reports say that many of the runners of the Boston Marathon have been donating blood, so blood supplies are sufficient for the moment.
The Salvation Army has been helping out with food and other assistance. If you'd like to help out the Salvation Army....
Google.org also has a person finder website for this tragic event.

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Filed Under: boston marathon, help, tragedy

84 Comments

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Rekrul, 15 Apr 2013 @ 5:09pm

Naturally, the White House's version of "helping" will be to take away even more of our rights in the name of keeping us safe.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 5:27pm

Re:
I think now is the time to put the politics behind us and concentrate on helping those in need at the moment.

We can deal with the BS later.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 5:38pm

Re:
Naturally, the White House's version...

No. That isn't natural. There's nothing naturally about it. The natural thing to do would be to retaliate reciprocally.

In previous wars, for instance, WWII, when the Germans bombed London, Churchill reciprocated by bombing German cities. That's natural.

During the Cold War, we promised the Soviets that if they nuked American cities, then we would nuke their cities. And we meant it. We really meant it, and they believed us.

These terrrorists are intentionally targeting our civilian population.

The natural thing to do is to retaliate the same way.

Nothing we do will ever make these terrorists our friends. They hate us. We do not have the power to make them stop hating us. What's worse, they're trying to kill us.

We do have the power to make them stop trying to kill us. We just need to use it. The same way we would have used our power against the Soviets. That's the natural thing to do.

That's what we elect Presidents for. Ever since the end of WWII, the President has been the man with his finger on the button. That's his fucking job. And if Obama won't do his job then we need to get someone in their who will. Fuck these fucking terrorists, and fuck the cities they came from, and fuck the nations where they were born. We need to kill them all.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 5:48pm

Re: Re:
Yeah fuck Timothy McVeigh and whatever ass-backwards, loser country he came from!
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 5:54pm

Re: Re: Re:
I really don't think this one was domestic.

But Timothy McVeigh is dead, isn't he?
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OldMugwump (profile), 15 Apr 2013 @ 6:01pm

Re: Re: No. That isn't natural.
OK, let's assume this was done by a terrorist.

You're suggesting that we should do the "natural" thing and attack some completely innocent people who happen to live someplace near where we think the terrorist came from?

That strikes me as unreasonable. Criminal, even.

Let's start by finding out exactly who did this, first. Then figure out how to persuade them, and others who think like them from doing it again. Yes, if necessary, by killing them. Them, not innocents who had nothing to do with it.
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That One Guy (profile), 15 Apr 2013 @ 6:01pm

Re: Re:
Yeah, cause killing a whole bunch of civilians, intentionally no less, is sure to make people hate the US less, and could never backfire by providing countless people who would otherwise not care one way or the other about the US the motivation to join a terrorist group to 'strike back against the US'. /s

Let me put this as plain as I can: Repaying atrocity with atrocity would make the USG nothing more than just another terrorist organization.

You seem like the kinda person who follows the 'ends justify the means' idea, so you may not realize this, but those that consider attacking civilians, of any nation an acceptable strategy in a war or conflict, are the generally considered the lowest of the low, and nothing more than terrorists and war criminals.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 6:05pm

Re: Re: Re: No. That isn't natural.
There are no innocents in war.

We are losing in Afghanistan. Damn near have lost. Ten years after 9-11, and were no closer to "pursuading" the Moslem world not to attack us. Forget pursuasion--it's not working.

War is not a debate.

We need to focus on taking away their capability. Destroying their capability. In the cheapest, most efficient way possible.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 6:07pm

Re: Re: Re:
... is sure to make people hate the US less...

We won't care if they still hate us�after they're dead.

After they're all dead, they won't be trying to kill us anymore.
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Anonymous, 15 Apr 2013 @ 6:13pm

Re: Re:
"Them"? Them who? There is no bigger, more vicious terrorist organization that the US government. The same government that perpetrated 9/11.
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Anonymous, 15 Apr 2013 @ 6:15pm

Re: Re: Re:
* "...organization THAN the US government."
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 6:59pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
You're right, he is.

1/300,000,000
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Andrew F (profile), 15 Apr 2013 @ 7:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: No. That isn't natural.
>>> There are no innocents in war.

Those folks at the marathon were.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 7:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No. That isn't natural.

There are no innocents in war.
Those folks at the marathon were.

No. It seems that they weren't. Not even the eight-year old.

They're just wounded and the dead.

American wounded, and American dead.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 7:33pm

Re: Re: Re:
how do you feel about hiroshima?
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 7:38pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
how do you feel about hiroshima?

The bomb worked. You can argue all day long about whether it was necessary. But history demonstrates that Hiroshima combined with Nagasaki was effective. It did the job. Fullfilled the requirements.

The Nips stopped trying to kill us.
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 15 Apr 2013 @ 7:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You didn't answer the other AC's question...
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 7:52pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You didn't answer the other AC's question...

The other AC can speak for himself, thank you. If he doesn't think I answered his question than he can say so himself.

If you don't �you yourself� don't think I answered his question, then please say why. I'm not dodging here. I think I answered it.
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That One Guy (profile), 15 Apr 2013 @ 8:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Wow, looks like I was understating things before, in mindset at least you are no better than the terrorists you claim to hate so much, as both you and them consider civilian casualties nothing more than just another way to sap your opponent's will to continue fighting.

Congratulations, you are no longer allowed to get angry at terrorists for their actions without exposing yourself as a massive hypocrite, as they are just doing the very same things you apparently see no problem with.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 8:18pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
you are no better than the terrorists

Did I ever say I was?

No. I'm not morally superior. I'm willing to grant the terrorists enough shared humanity to recogize that I need to consciously dehumanize them.

But there's no hypocrisy about it.

Only sides. The American side. And the enemy side.

Or to look at it another way, the dead, and the survivors.
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 15 Apr 2013 @ 8:34pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Your answer seemed to me like it was avoiding the question -- but based on your other comments, I'm realizing it wasn't avoiding the question, and you just have what I consider to be an extremely inhumane and dangerous attitude about this stuff...
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 8:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
extremely inhumane and dangerous

It's a dangerous world.

Look, are you saying you're morally superior to the kids who firebombed Dresden and Hamburg and Tokyo? American kids, and Brits, and Canadians, and Aussies... kids then, but your fathers and grandfathers.

Are you morally superior to those kids? Really?
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Rekrul, 15 Apr 2013 @ 9:32pm

Re: Re: Re:
Let me put this as plain as I can: Repaying atrocity with atrocity would make the USG nothing more than just another terrorist organization.

And turning the other cheek gets you two bruised cheeks.

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario;

Out in the middle of the desert, a squad of US soldiers with impeccable ethics comes face to face with an equal sized squad of Taliban fanatics who enjoy killing Americans. Each fanatic is using an innocent civilian as a human shield.

Which side is going to win?

The terrorists are essentially using the countries they're in as human shields. Not to mention that probably half the governments in the middle east are probably either secretly supporting the terrorists, or at the very least, turning a blind eye to what they do.

The Arab world as a whole could probably put a stop to this crap, but they don't want to. The problem is that countries today aren't scared of the US anymore. They know that we're all bark and no bite. Sure, we invaded Iraq, but that amounted to little more than a skirmish. They know that we're not going really do anything.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 9:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: No. That isn't natural.
Wow you're a complete monster. I would have agreed if you were pushing peach through strength and agressivly going after those that want us dead, but to indesciminately murder everyone in your path is pure evil
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 10:00pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If he would not murder a bunch of innocents to save his own hide then yes
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 10:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
While I often criticise christians and religion for morality divorced from logic you are the opposite problem: logic without morality and compassion

You cannot do such horrid things as you suggest and still call yourself just or even human
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Gothenem (profile), 15 Apr 2013 @ 10:20pm

Re: Re:
Sorry, but no. We must always remain vigilant, for it is in these weakest of times, when we are so focused on helping those who have suffered tragedy, that the government will steal our rights from us.
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Gothenem (profile), 15 Apr 2013 @ 10:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I disagree with your assessment. I think it was a domestic person. A foreign terrorist would have done three things different.

1: Taken credit for it.
2: Attacked a much higher-profile target.
3: Done more damage.

I think it is an American who used the connection the Boston Marathon had with the Sandy Hook shooting to attempt to sow more confusion and anger. Probably a nutbag who wanted to be mentioned in the same breath as the nutbag from Sandy Hook.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Apr 2013 @ 11:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
1: Taken credit for it.

Not claiming credit for it is an actually an Al Qaeda indicator.

A medium-strong Al Qaeda indicator. Fits their past behavior.
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 12:16am

By far...the biggest help one can give the authorities is sit down, shut up and do as Boston's DHS representative asked....to not speculate on who did it UNTIL THE FULL INVESTIGATIVE REPORT IS COMPLETE.

NOW FOR THE FUCKING POLITICAL BULLSHIT FROM ABOVE:

Obama did as he was supposed to do and it is extremely unfair to compare him to President George W. Bush during 9/11/2001. It is his fucking job to tell his people to do what they can to help and to bring the scum that attacked my nation's soil, be it domestic terrorism or foreign, to bring these assholes (yes it was coordinated) to justice.
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 12:19am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Says the coward claiming to be in a hacker organization who would ouster size one if their own for something like this.

You've got some nerve asshole. But that's all you are...an asshole. You're stating that the US Gvt. is a terrorist organization? Who brought down Osama Bin Laden fucktard?
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 12:24am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Ok...even when a kid is brainwashed to hate you and throw grenades at you? That's what the Vietnam War had asshole....try again.

Oh, by the way, you can thank Christian ministries and missionaries for you not being eaten if you ever decide to visit Papua, New Guinea.
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 12:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Look, are you saying you're morally superior to the kids who firebombed Dresden and Hamburg and Tokyo? American kids, and Brits, and Canadians, and Aussies... kids then, but your fathers and grandfathers."

We have better morals than an asshole little shit for brains fucktard such as your self...at least we don't troll you fuckers when something bad happens across the fucking pond!!
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 12:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I'm not sure you're aware of the concept that maybe the AC you failed to answer to might not look back for a response because he/she knows what you are going to say to him/her is complete fucking bullshit.
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 12:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"how do you feel about hiroshima?

The bomb worked. You can argue all day long about whether it was necessary. But history demonstrates that Hiroshima combined with Nagasaki was effective. It did the job. Fullfilled the requirements.

The Nips stopped trying to kill us."

That's a statement of history...he wants your opinion...oh wait...judging by your comments below, you're to fucking stupid to even know the moral dilemma those decisions held.

History lesson:
The Japanese would not give up because the Japanese military brainwashed the Japanese people to not give up because the American occupation forces would "rape their women, steal their clothes, and eat all their food". You ever hear of a Kamakzi pilot asshole? Yeah....see that would not have stopped if Nagasaki and Hiroshima...Japan's largest manufacturers of aircraft parts...weren't leveled.

So it got the job done you say...guess what asshole...that's exactly how the terrorist who set up the bombs in Boston felt....Anyone reading this now best not read this AC's other comments in this thread; it would be a fucking waste if your time.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 12:51am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You cannot do such horrid things as you suggest and still call yourself just or even human

Listen, Mister-Soft-In-The-Head, in case you haven't noticed, we're kinda beyond the name-calling stage with these terrorists.

They are intentionally targetting civilians in American cities.

It is a problem. We need to make them stop doing that.

Americans are a practical, can-do people. We can do it. Make them stop attacking civilians in our cities. Now, are you willing make that happen, or do you want to stand around wringing your hands over the atrocity.

Do you know what humans are really capable of, when you put them under a little bit of pressure? Flying a plane over the flak in Europe, kicking out five-hundred pound bombs on top of an old city, knowing there's eighty-percent chance the damn thing will land within a mile of its aim point�and correspondingly, a twenty-percent that it won't�when the bombing target is �area dehousing�, and the intention is to start a conflagration, a fire-storm. Americans are capable of that, or at least they used to be. We didn't even need nukes for Dresden and Hamburg. We burned those old cities up.
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Karl (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 12:59am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If you don't �you yourself� don't think I answered his question, then please say why. I'm not dodging here. I think I answered it.

Average Joe, is that you?

...Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
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Karl (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 1:01am

Re: Re:
I think now is the time to put the politics behind us and concentrate on helping those in need at the moment.

Seconded.

In fact, I think it would be best if we left politics out of it altogether. People who do that are usually just exploiting a tragedy for political gain.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 1:44am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Average Joe, is that you?

Nope.

...Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Take a look at the indicators again.

(Although I slightly suspect that you �truly� spotted them already. Surprised that I feel the way I do? Are you calling me AJ in order to shock me into thinking differently? Sorry�if that's what you were trying to do, the tactic didn't work.)
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:02am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
you misunderstand the psychology of war. it's attitudes like yours which is why the vietnam war was lost. newsflash- every time the US bombs civilians it becomes evidence for the terrorists that America is evil. Yes, bomb the terrorists. but make sure you are actually bombing terrorists, not a wedding. (or a funeral)

IOW, bombing civillians drives people to support the other side.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:23am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
IOW, bombing civillians drives people to support the other side.

Not if the bombing is effective. If the bombing kills them all, then they're won't be another side to support.

Do you understand how big a kiloton range explosion is? Let alone a megaton range.

We need to kill them all. All of them. All. They will never be our friends. They will never stop hating us. They will never stop trying to kill us. The only thing we can do is to get them first.

Wipe out their civilization.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
What christians did in papua is irrelevanmt to my point on morality divorced from logic.

Humans are not limited to either always does right or always does wrong
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Madness...absolute madness. I hope you're tosses in a padded cell
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Anonymous, 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:39am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If you knew true history, you would know that the Japanese surrendered BEFORE the bomb was dropped, but America went ahead and dropped it anyway.
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Anonymous, 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:43am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Your first sentence makes no sense. As for "who brought down Osamam Bin Laden", that's another can of worms there.
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Anonymous, 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:45am

Re:
Obama said that "we will find who did this" and that they will "feel the full weight of justice". TRANSLATION: We will find a patsy to blame to blame our operation on.
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Anonymous, 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:47am

Re: Re:
* should say "to blame" once. Sorry for the typo. It's early morning here.
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:49am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The United States called for a surrender of Japan in the Potsdam Declaration on 26 July 1945, threatening Japan with "prompt and utter destruction". The Japanese government ignored this ultimatum, and the United States deployed two nuclear weapons developed by the Manhattan Project.

On August 6th and August 9th of that year the US dropped atom bombs on Japan.

Try not to reinvent history there when trying to bring down a comment next time will you?
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:51am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yes but some times humans do what is logically right and make terrible mistakes as a result.
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:55am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Autocorrect is a bitch at times. "Ostracized" is a word I do not often spell.

The US killed Osama Bin Laden without NATO's help. You're also being a troll for no reason and railing against the US when there is no reason to.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Same can be said of divorcing morals from logic

Which is why I said you do not base things solely on what cold logic tells you nor on arbitrary morality based in feelings.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 3:57am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Or morality based on blindly accepting scripture
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 4:02am

Re: Re: Re:
I recall one of his 2008 campaign promises was to hunt down and kill Osama Bin Laden before the end of that 4 year term....

You have the department of interior investigating along with the DHS and FBI on the matter. The two unexplored bombs will have traceable numbers on them and we will be kept in the dark until a full investigative report is done.

Furthermore, President George W. Bush was already doing a pre-recording of a national televised event while 9/11 happened. He did as other presidents would have done and so has Obama...who was likely eating lunch when he got the news.
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Anonymous, 16 Apr 2013 @ 4:03am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If you don't believe me, look it up for yourself. It's been a few years so I don't have a link for it.
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 4:04am

Re: Re: Re:
Oh and I'm sorry that your country wouldn't quite know what to do about such matters.
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Anonymous, 16 Apr 2013 @ 4:08am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Hey, if you want to believe that "the US killed Osama Bin Laden", go ahead and believe it.
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Wally (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 4:08am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Religious debate or not...you can still thank Christian ministers and missionaries for your ability to have a vacation on Papua, New Guinea without being eaten.
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Anonymous, 16 Apr 2013 @ 4:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Do you also believe that a plane hit the Pentagon on 9/11? If so, maybe you can explain what happened to this plane, the wreckage, the bodies of passengers, etc.?
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Berenerd (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 5:05am

Re: Re: Re: No. That isn't natural.
Technically, even if home grown, bombs are involved and its a terrorist act. It was a deliberate act to hurt people at random. This is a terrorist act. I spent the night with 8 runners from outside the US because they couldn't get back to their hotel. They were visibly shaken up This was not attack just on the US but other nations as well. This will not end well for who ever did this.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 5:14am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Again, utterly irrelevant to any point I've made
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 5:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
and so are a lot of other people because of him..
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The Real Michael, 16 Apr 2013 @ 5:23am

Re: Re: Re:
I second that. Don't allow the government and media to manipulate you using emotional ploys, much like Sandy Hook, as a means to take away more of your rights. Don't put anything past this government; they don't exactly invite trust.

It's pretty disturbing that cops were walking around dressed like military ...and they weren't National Guard nor SWAT. I also read somewhere that an eye-witness reported seeing bomb-sniffing dogs at the marathon before the explosion. Not sure if that's true or not but this whole thing is extremely suspect.

For one thing, who had access to explosives? It requires some expertise to A) create the bomb, and B) create a cell-phone activated trigger mechanism, if that was really what happened. How'd s/he go around planting them around Boston undetected? Why didn't the others go off?

Also bear in mind the timing of this event. Public approval and trust in Washington is at an all-time low and there's tremendous dissent among the public. They're trying to push through dangerous, Constitution-eroding bills like CISPA on a more frequent basis. They want to create a national registry for guns so that they can confiscate them later. They push for having drones patrol our skies and increased presence of Homeland Security/TSA. If anyone stands to gain from a 'terrorist attack' it's definitely the government.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 5:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Out in the middle of the desert what country is this desert in ?

Americans, always have to be at war with someone, and always needing to HATE some group or another, you simply would not be Americans if you did not.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 5:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The US killed Osama Bin Laden without NATO's help.

Cough BILLSHIT..
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The Real Michael, 16 Apr 2013 @ 5:33am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
What about the size of the hole being much smaller than athe plane itself, no damage from the wings (which defies logic), the virtually impossible chance that a 747 could be navigated to perfectly target the Pentagon without causing any outside damage, i.e. taking down tree branches, poles, etc. Oh, and the Patriot Act was finished just a couple of days in advance of the attacks.

9/11 was the best thing that could've ever happened for the government. It gave them all the jusification they needed to erode our rights and set the wheels of war in motion...
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 5:52am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Hearing all the claims that NATO basically IS the US then it would be impossible for the US to get bin laden without NATO :P
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 9:17am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You're a coward. Did you know that? I think you think that you're brave and strongheaded and practical, but you're not. You're an utter and total coward.

Do you know why? Because you want to take the easy way out. You're upset that 12 years in Afghanistan -- a blip in world history -- hasn't solved all of its problems. You think that trying to be constructive and address the root causes of terrorism is too much work and too scary. So you take the coward's way out: "kill them all".

The cold war lasted much longer than 12 years, and it was eventually resolved without the missiles flying. The world came very close to that disaster many times -- but each time it was narrowly averted. Do you know why? Because braver men and women than you were there to keep a level head, and choose the hard work over the easy and deadly coward's solution.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 9:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The cold war lasted much longer than 12 years, and it was eventually resolved without the missiles flying.

During the entire cold war, the Soviets never once �never once� attacked civilian targets in American cities.

They were deterred.

Do you understand deterrence?

So what do you when deterrence has failed? Deterrence failed on 9-11. Now, deterrence has failed again. It's time to pull the trigger.
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 9:54am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Just like I said: "It's too hard! Just kill them all instead"

Coward.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 10:40am

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Coward.

Don't bother trying to insult me or shame me. This has gone beyond name-calling. This is serious.

Deterrence failed on 9-11. And deterrence failed again yesterday. Now we have to cope with the consequences.

Did you think we bluffing during the cold war? We never promised no first-use.
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Karl (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 10:51am

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Take a look at the indicators again.

What "indicators"? The snowflake? AFAIK, it doesn't follow you from story to story.

I thought you might be AJ, because the vindictive way you talk about retribution at any cost is the same way that AJ talks about "piracy."

And, honestly, it was a dig at AJ... I think it's funny that AJ is so bad, even you don't want to be compared to him.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 11:38am

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What "indicators"? The snowflake? AFAIK, it doesn't follow you from story to story.

Either you recognize the style or you don't.

Anyhow, don't mistake my thoughts for mere vindictiveness.

Rather, I've thought about this ever since 9-11. What would have been our best response to that attack? What mistakes did we make in the response we chose? And, importantly, what is our best response to another attack on American soil? What is our best next move in this war?

We've had a decade, and we've fucked around in Afghanistan, and Iraq, and have not change anyone's minds there. Pursuasion, or dissuasion, has not worked. We have not gotten the message across.

It needs to be crystal fucking clear that attacks on American cities shall not be tolerated.

And that, in the end, the United States will respond to attacks on civilians in American cities by ordering the complete destruction of the enemy civilization.

We don't really have a choice. Our open society will not last under sustained terrorist assault. You want to just give up and become a police state? Cowering in fear from a bunch of barbarians trying to bring us down? Or do you want to just make the attacks stop. Using the practical and effective means we have at our disposal to deal with the problem.
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 11:47am

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You have made it crystal clear that you fundamentally believe genocide to be an appropriate, acceptable response to terrorism.

Fine. So be it. But quit acting so baffled that most people here are better than that.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 11:58am

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The enemy won't hesitate to genocide us.

Us or them. That simple. Choose: Us or them.
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 12:14pm

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I reject the notion that it's "that simple", as does anyone with any perspective. The attitude you are espousing is, as proven a million times over centuries of history, the single most dangerous, destructive and ultimately self-defeating attitude that a human being with a god complex can have.

If you believe that the human race, as a whole, is not capable of ever being anything more than a bunch of tribes engaging in genocide, then I suppose your attitude makes sense, since that is an incredibly bleak outlook.

But the fact is that the only thing standing between the world and total destruction is the fact that some people do not immediately and gleefully destroy their enemy just because they have been given nominal lease to do so. Balancing that with the need for security and strength, and sometimes the need for extreme action, is difficult but necessary, not to mention noble.

Only cowards and monsters gleefully embrace genocide as a solution.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 12:26pm

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...gleefully...

It isn't gleeful. No, if you want point out some feasible, practical alternative, that perhaps I've overlooked....

But I don't see an alternative.

We have a very complex, inter-related world these days. There's a whole lot of powerful technology around�that we cannot really secure or defend. Not against fanatics willing to attack our cities.

Our culture won't survive in world where terrorists fly passenger planes into office building, and blow up eight year-olds at the Boston marathon. We have only a finite set of resources. We can't physically defend every potential target.
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 12:39pm

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It is astonishing that you think our culture can survive a world where superpowers wipe out entire civilizations at will, but not a world where extremist groups occasionally succeed in launching localized violent attacks.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 1:19pm

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a world where superpowers wipe out entire civilizations

Ever spent any time on an Indian reservation here in America? It's eye-opening. You know what we did to those cultures, don't you? Still kinda do there, a little bit.

But for that matter, what do you think we did to Germany and Japan? We bombed their cities into oblivion, didn't just destroy their armies and navies, but destroyed the existing cultures there, and then reformed them into something acceptable for our modern world.So, based on all that's happened before, our American culture can survive another episode of genocide in our history. We need to recognize that we've never been exactly angels or saints.

But, on the flip side, how much censorship are you willing to accept in order to avoid offending muslim sensitivities? How many bag searches on the subway before they become unreasonable searches? How many naked searches at the airports? How many demands for identification when you go into a building? How many combat-armed police patrolling the streets? Our culture is losing our love for the liberty of our citizens. And what's worse, all that shit isn't really working to keep us safe. We give up the liberty of our citizens and don't get any safety. Fuck.

You wanna be just another dirty, grubby police state? Or are you willing to do what's really necessary.
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 1:57pm

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You are posing a false dichotomy between genocide and a police state. The fact that a problem hasn't been solved doesn't mean you must immediately embrace the most extreme solution, and the fact that you're not an saint doesn't mean you have to embrace the role of monster.

You're every bit as much an extremist as the most violent terrorist, and your rhetoric sounds quite similar to theirs. That makes you part of the problem.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 2:27pm

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"White brothers at war and it's fake." -Sister Souljah
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 2:34pm

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Wasn't shutting down Guantanamo Bay prison another one of his promises?
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Apr 2013 @ 4:11pm

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dichotomy between genocide and a police state

This conversation, if you remember, began with Rekrul's comment:

Naturally, the White House's version of "helping" will be to take away even more of our rights in the name of keeping us safe.

We don't have the power to change our enemies minds. They want to kill us, and they are actively trying.

What do you want to do about that?
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Karl (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 11:18pm

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What would have been our best response to that attack?

Well, for starters, going after the people who were actually responsible, and not preyed on that fear to invent scare stories to go to war with Iraq. Not bombing civilian targets would have helped. Not gunning down journalists from helicopters, or running them over with tanks, probably would have been a good idea.

These actions may not have convinced the actual terrorists to love us, but they wouldn't have created more terrorists.

And that, in the end, the United States will respond to attacks on civilians in American cities by ordering the complete destruction of the enemy civilization.

And what civilization would that be, exactly? Terrorists are not from a single state, nor a single "civilization."

So, what, we should wipe out all Muslims across the world? Or everyone in the Middle East?

And what do you do about terrorists like the Oklahoma City bombers? Kill all the white people? Murder anyone in an American militia?

Do you honestly think doing that would not lead to a police state?

Our open society will not last under sustained terrorist assault.

This, of course, is complete bullshit. The only way our "open society will not last," is if we listen to people like you, and grant our government's military carte blanche to do whatever they want.

Or do you honestly think they'd stop with genocidal actions against foreign citizens? Please.

Also:

What do you want to do about that?

Well, if your goal is actually to save lives and keep America free, then it would be better to do nothing than to take your advice. Fewer lives would be lost (even American lives) from terrorist attacks than would be lost in an all-out war. And we'd certainly have more freedom, though less safety.

On the other hand, if your goal is to cleanse the planet of all human beings, then you've got some good ideas. I can understand that, I'm a fan of Boyd Rice too.
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Karl (profile), 16 Apr 2013 @ 11:29pm

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Terrorists are not from a single state, nor a single "civilization."

I'd also like to point out that we don't know who perpetrated the bombings at this point. It could just as easily be Tea Party extremists as Islamic terrorists. Or it could be mass murderers without a political agenda, like many of the school shooters. Or someone completely different.
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