Walmart Employees Fired For Disarming Gun-Toting Robber
from the no-good-deed dept
Walmart has pretty specific rules for how employees are supposed to deal with shoplifters, however, it does seem a bit bizarre that the company would go so far as to fire some employees who disarmed a gun-toting thief. Obviously, the idea is that they don't want to encourage other employees to do the same thing, but does it really reach up to the level of firing the employees? At some point you have to wonder if there's a middle ground that makes sense.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
1 - Fired employees.
2 - People in the store "traumatized" for life.
3 - The thief for being manhandled.
While it is amazing these employees did something to try to help, in the sue happy culture Walmart only has 1 answer that works. Remove the people who placed them in danger of having to litigate. I don't have the answer for a middle ground, but until someone finds it you will continue to see corporations trying to protect their bottom line.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
old news
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Abdication or responsibility and victim mentality
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Abdication or responsibility and victim mentality
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Abdication or responsibility and victim mentality
When you talk about personal responsibility... my responsibility is to myself and my family first. Screw Wallmart. Walmart has hired retail sales folks, not a security force. We can't all just take the law into our own hands. We have law enforcement for a reason.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Abdication or responsibility and victim mentality
Did anyone say you would have to be obliged to subdue criminals if these guys weren't punished?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Abdication or responsibility and victim mentality
I mean, how can you deal with a guy who farts into a special bottle that he realises at the coast just to be safe nobody is stealing and using something that belongs to him?!!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Abdication or responsibility and victim mentality
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Abdication or responsibility and victim mentality
> the place I would let them
How do you know they're just going to stop at robbery? Maybe they figure killing you is a good way to keep you from helping the cops catch them later on.
If you don't take advantage of an opportunity to disarm them, you may very well pay for that decision with your life.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Abdication or responsibility and victim mentality
Actng in self-defense or defense of others is not taking the law into your own hands. It's acting in accordance with the law, since the law specifically permits such actions.
> We have law enforcement for a reason.
Yep. To solve crimes after they happen and arrest those responsible. Law enforcement is reactionary, not prophylactic. It cannot (nor are they expected to) prevent crimes in from happening in the first place. Sure, the cops may show up after a robbery-murder at Walmart and collect evidence and track down the perpetrators and arrest them, but that doesn't do much for the dead register clerk who was murdered to keep her from being able to identify the criminals.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Abdication or responsibility and victim mentality
Where did you get the idea they did it to protect Walmart?
>We can't all just take the law into our own hands.
If someone is threatening to shoot you, yes you can. It's called self defense, and just as the name implies it's something you do yourself. In fact there are lots of times it's completely acceptable to take the law into your own hands. Just because something is "the law" doesn't automatically mean only law enforcement can deal with it, or even that its law enforcement's responsibility at all.
>We have law enforcement for a reason.
Yes. And that reason is to catch people after they've broken the law. Although it's part of a police officer's job to stop a crime in progress when they happen across it, almost the entirety of their job is to catch people after a crime has been committed.
Furthermore, companies like Walmart don't forbid employees from stopping a robbery for the safety of employees or customers. It's to protect them from lawsuits when an employee tries to stop a crime and something goes wrong. While I suspect the odds of someone getting hurt are probably lower if you just hand over the money, if I'm the one facing that risk I'll make the decision for myself. Playing the averages is a pretty sure bet when its someone else's life being put at risk. When it's your own, you have to decide for yourself. Saying there's a single "best" way to react, regardless of circumstances, is simply ignorant.
According to the article, the employees felt they didn't have a choice. To say they were wrong without being in their place (or even bothering to educate yourself on any of the specifics apparently) is both ignorant and arrogant. In fact they appear to be saying they did it for exactly the reason you yourself say they shouldn't have. The difference is, if they make the wrong call they pay the price. If you're wrong about their situation, you don't. And neither do the corporate attorneys responsible for setting the policy that got them fired.
As you said yourself, their responsibility was to look out for themselves, not Walmart. Which means if they felt their chances of being killed were better if they jumped him, that's exactly what they should have done. And in fact that appears to be exactly what happened.
There are many circumstances under which attempting to disarm a criminal would be reasonable grounds for firing. This doesn't appear to fit into that category.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Abdication or responsibility and victim mentality
it's a corporation's policy of protecting itself by encouraging employees to not protect themselves.
in walmart's view it would actually be better from a litigation perspective if the thief actually hurt one of the employees.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
insane
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: insane
(well, that and show that this is not just being limited to the USA, sadly.)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: insane
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: insane
It's like a night in with friends where you watch shitty B-movies and get drunk... except done across a whole continent.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: insane
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: insane
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: insane
The Corporate "Citizen" is the only voice heard in this country.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: insane
I emigrated from the USSR. I lived there and I live here. I can compare. And I sh!t you not, USA right now ~~ Brezhnev era USSR
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: insane
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Policy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Policy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Policy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Policy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Policy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Policy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Policy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Policy
So, again, how does that make them /WORSE/ than the average corporation?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Policy
Where have you been - on Mars or freeze dried ?
Please go stick your head down a toilet for ten minutes or so.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Policy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Policy
demand their employees clock out and work extra hours on the threat of being fired?
leave recalled products on the shelf after being warned several times?
exploit slave labor abroad? (well - ok yeah they do)
treat their customes like criminals?
etc ...
but yeah, I'm sure you're right
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Policy
I worked at a Ritz Camera in college (before everyone went digital). Our biggest local competitor was the WalMart photo lab, and we often got customers coming in with pictures that WalMart refused to print. WalMart had a strict no-nudity policy, which extended all the way to infants waist-up in the bath. While I can't imagine a reasonable person in our society finding that obscene or inappropriate, it violated policy, so they wouldn't print it.
I don't mean to support or condemn WalMart here - I'm not really sure what side I come down on - but I think that, based on corporate policy that the fired employees certainly should have known, this was the correct call by WalMart.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Policy
Ironic I think.
Centralized planning has been rightly discredited because it is inflexible, but then those who run large organizations worry less about flexibility than they do loss of control.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
For once I can understand where Wal-Mart is coming from.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
I am sure.
I suppose the ladies were applying make-up and fixing their hair in preparation of the TV news crews.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
I'm under the (perhaps naive) assumption that all were questioned and from that info they found that one tried being a hero.
I'm on the fence about them being fired but at the same time, I'm not rushing to hammer the "Evil Empire' of Wal-Mart. I can see their concerns as well.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Victimization is Our Policy
More often than not, the robbers will attempt to "disable" the victims for fear of identification, etc. Too many cases of those being robbed being taken to the back of the store and shot dead.
I, for one, would not believe an armed bandit was not going to shoot me just because he said so. That kind of stupidity is for the movies.
No amount of policies are going to change human nature, just like no amount of silly laws has done. Policies like this just encourage victimization, and the psychological damage from such events is never fixed.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Victimization is Our Policy
The people on the planes on 9/11 were probably told that the terrorists would land the planes safely.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Victimization is Our Policy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Victimization is Our Policy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Victimization is Our Policy
Apples = Oranges = Genius
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Victimization is Our Policy
You must of had a pretty amazing education to have the intelligence to be able to miss the point as impressively as that.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Victimization is Our Policy
Unless the person robbing the store is currently pointing a gun at you directly then you are not really under much of a threat at all. When someone hijacks a flying plane then everyone is at the same risk simultaneously. Planes are a lot smaller than Walmart stores and they crash a lot easier.
To say that one should act in a Walmart robbery the same way one should react to a plane hijacking is wrong. However, if you want to get shot protecting Walmart then be my guest, you'd be doing the world a favor.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Victimization is Our Policy
You might notice that while terrorists have attempted to blow planes up since 9-11, they haven't attempted to take over any planes. Why? Most likely because of what happened on Flight 93 and the terrorists' awareness that it would likely be repeated in the future.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Victimization is Our Policy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Victimization is Our Policy
Tell that to the 10 year old child who gets in your way, as the gun goes off, and due to YOUR actions, that child dies!
Was that child able to decide if they wanted to be a victum or not ?
And it would be harder to take over a plane post 911 due to the extra security, the installation of strong and secure doors for the cockpit, and changing the rules so that no one can enter, and the cockpit, is to be locked at all times.
Maybe the terrorists are just as aware of those measures as I am, and as you should be.
To consider WHY no one has tried to take over an aircraft..
I might even be due to homeland security, and the dreated airport safety group you people seem to hate so much.
So what we need then according to you, is strip searches, naked x-rays, and background checks to allow you to ENTER WALLMART ..
Good one..
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
They didn't have a "Security Department" they had a "Loss Prevention Department". They didn't care much about the safety of their employees or customers, it was the merchandise that needed to have security.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
"Rolling back seats so your whole town can fit!"
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
It's a wonder that Walmart locations aren't being robbed on a daily basis by groups loading up on expensive items, flashing a gun and then just walking out of the store.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Until they go past the checkout lines, Walmart would be risking a lawsuit to call the cops on them, and once they do walk past the checkout, they can be out the door and into a waiting van long before the cops show up.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
If the thief takes his manhandling to court...
In fact, most criminals would be better off failing miserably and taking their case to the nearest lawyer. Traumatized while botching a B&E? Felt a little blue (and possibly bruised) after fumbling through a home invasion? Customers and employees fail to cooperate with your threats, written and otherwise?
I think those are all winnable cases. Crime pays even if you can't/don't follow through.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: If the thief takes his manhandling to court...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Silver lining
Have you ever been fired - YES
Explain - I had the skills and sense of leadership to take the opportunity to disarm a robber. Attached is the court record and contemporaneous newspaper reports.
Attach other labels like 'ability to make quick decisions' et la and Bam! Better Job.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Silver lining
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Silver lining
I went through this myself as a regional HR manager with a national hotel chain when an employee that was a former cop used a gun to apprehend a robber. A company wants an employee to just let the robber take the money and it will deal with the crime after the fact, including beefing up security to prevent another occurrence. If the problem continues, more resources are added.
All that being said, the policy relates to robbery. IF a psycho walks in and just starts shooting, it's a different story.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Product of the times
My first thought was they want the "see something, say something" to actually work and we cant have somebody take matter into there own hands rather than appeal to a higher authority right?
It sets a bad fucking precedent in my book to say don't intervene because we'll fire your ass. The title of alarmist screams at me but i'm going to say it anyway. The next step is utter complacency waiting for someone else to intervene not just for your health or your property but your very life.
Also to Chester, I'm with you the second man theory(Google it) in live action works for me as well.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
"""If I'm going to die it will be fighting. So screw Walmart because I won't be protecting their money. I will be protecting my life."""
Reading really is fundamental.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What could have happened? The robber could have used his gun, shoot the four employees, reload his gun and shoot them again to leave no living witnesses and then run through the store to escape, shooting at anything else that moved. These four weren't brave. They aren't heroes. They've been stupid and very, very lucky. It's like letting your child play with a living rattlesnake, expecting nothing bad happens.
But firing them for this is also a bit extreme. It's better to educate them and use the event to educate other employees. Suspend them for a week or whatever. But don't take away their jobs because that would definitely discourage other employees from ever caring for their employer. Because they might have been stupid, they also cared enough to put their lives in the path of danger to support their employer. People who care are what you need as a company...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Yes, but it didn't. Because the robber no longer has a gun to shoot.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
It was stupid, since it was about a laptop. Maybe an expensive one but still worth far less than the injury of a bullet in your body.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
Exactly!
What you call a stupid stunt, I call a reaction. Afraid for your life? Fight or flight?
I would be looking to get my job back for wrongful dismissal.
"What makes you think I was protecting their product and not my life? I don't care about your company that much and to prove it I am here to sue your ass off!"
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Self-reliance is a virtue not something to be punished for. And for dam sure isn't stupid let alone anti-heroic.
You want complacency when it comes to your very life be my guest but I'm sure as hell supporting the person(s) that protect mine. Your appealing to authority sickens me.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Besides, these employees weren't just responsible for their own lives but also of the customers in the shop itself! And I assume it's a reasonable busy shop. If he had shot those four enployees and escaped the room, chances are that he would have shot a few customers too just to escape.
Basically, they were also lucky because this robber just didn't dare to shoot. Most people aren't murderers and pulling the trigger of a loaded weapon to shoot someone else isn't easy. A more cold-blooded robber would have shot them all...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Whole heartedly disagree...
The only difference between stupidity and bravery is ...success!
They were brave because they were successful and lucky. Had they failed, then, they would have been stupid and unlucky.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Whole heartedly disagree...
Bravery requires a valid reason to try something that would otherwise be just stupid. A laptop just isn't worth it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Whole heartedly disagree...
If 'this guy is going to shoot me' isn't a valid reason to defend oneself, then what is? Honestly, I think you draw the line a little too short.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Did you miss this part? I don't know about you, but my logic says that if a guy is "charging" with a gun, he intends to do harm. I'm not sure about you but this tells me there are 3 possible outcomes:
1) do nothing and count the wounded/dead, or let the police count the wounded and dead because you are among the dead, and maximize the casualties.
2) defend and disarm the aggressor with no one getting hurt aside from possibly the aggressor and eliminate the casualties.
3) defend and get hurt but minimalize the casualties.
Which do you choose?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Besides, there were 5 people in that room! It wasn't that small, I think. (Besides, why did the four of them even need to be there, if the room was that small?)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
(Besides, why did the four of them even need to be there, if the room was that small?)
In case the accused was armed.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
But do go on and indulge your imagination.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What would you do? A gun has just been pulled on you and you are in a small space. Fight or flight will kick in pretty quick. Running will probably get you shot. So what does that leave?
Frankly I'm disappointed that Walmart wouldn't take this into consideration. It's not like the man pulled the gun when he was first approached. He waited until he was in a room alone with the manager and loss prevention officers.
If they had of ran or let the guy go, and someone had of been shot, I wonder how Walmart would have reacted?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
That is why you run in a zig-zag.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Zig zag = common point in the gunmans field of vision. He just has to hold his gun up and fire at you when you cross it again.
Across his field of vision and to the nearest object of cover if you must run.
But in this situation if you had ran you just signed the death certificates for 3 other people.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
9/11
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: 9/11
Wrong premise for a complacent point and a resistance is a invalid variable.
The correct one is self-preservation for oneself, let alone our fellow man.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: 9/11
No, this isn't a 'mentality', these policies pre-date 9/11, and you're an idiot.
Policies like this are about risk assessment. If you're in a plane, and someone is trying to hijack it, you should fight back. Your risk of death is high enough to warrant getting out of your seat and maybe being shot by the hijackers.
If you're in a convenient store and some punk comes in to steal beer and cigarettes, you shouldn't fight back. You're in almost no danger there in the aisle (only slightly more behind the counter), so why risk yourself over beer and cigarettes?
Again, the key words here are risk assessment. Human lives are more important than cash from a bank, jewelry from a store, or beer and cigarettes.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: 9/11
However if they make you aware of the gun by pointing it at you and then advance to the counter and demand cigarettes and beer, they are a loose cannon with a gun. The assessment is that while the merchandise will be lost, your life and/or safety is at risk.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Under most circumstances...
However, for every twenty stories where the employees didn't engage the robber and left the store alive, I can show you one where the circumstances were just different enough to warrant fighting back and risking your life. This story - where a gunman charged the employees in a small room - happens to be one of them.
So far as I know, there are no policies about charging gunmen, so Wal-Mart should cut them some slack.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Under most circumstances...
I'd only ever heard it called once in my years there. The Loss Prevention (LP) team of 2 alerted management to a team of 4 shoplifters at work. The code went out over the PA and we all wandered up to the front of the store (with zero idea of what to do once there). Then we saw the outright brawl going on right outside the windows.
LP woman in a knock down drag out with another woman trying to get in a cab at the curb. LP man being wrestled by an old woman (!) who was actually a man in a dress. Our burly receiver/custodian calmly arm-locking a larger man from behind. And - I will NEVER forget this - our girthsome female store manager seated squarely on the back of a weakly struggling third male shoplifter.
It took forever for the cops to arrive, felt like. Not one of us went out there - I think it was so surreal that no one knew what to do. Assistant managers may have told us to stay put, I can't recall.
Turns out the woman shoplifter had snatched a pair of scissors off of the front desk on her way out. The man restrained by the custodian was trying to reach a boxcutter in his jacket. The guy in the dress broke LP's arm as they fell to the ground. These weren't just thieves they were maniacs that exploded into violence when LP stopped them outside the doors (standard procedure - let them leave with stolen merchandise then confront them).
None of the employees involved were fired. I don't recall if disciplinary actions were taken or not, but they were all there and working for the remainder of my time at the store.
One of the reasons I left my last job in retail was the complete lack of security procedure at all, it was never even discussed, not at any time. It's scary to realize that you'd be alone at a cash register with no idea of how to even contact another employee...you'd be on your own.
The Walmart LP folks did what they did. Should they have let the guy stroll out into a crowded entrance/exit with a gun he'd threatened to use? I saw an interview with 2 of them where they raised that issue - they were faced with instantly considering not only themselves but many others...
I don't think that's a firing offense.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Under most circumstances...
Yes, that's what I said. :)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Under most circumstances...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Under most circumstances...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Walmart
Anyway who wants to put away a bad person in a jail with 3 square meals, clothes, shelter, and TV? NOT
Can't wait for the day that they give these bafoons game consoles to ride their time out in each cell .......
What ever happened to a finger for the first offense, then a hand, then your head?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Walmart
In a purely Christian sense, the New Testament happened.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Walmart
Coming soon to a country near you.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
There really is no "right" road on this issue. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
What are you saying now?
Thank God for these brave souls and that no babies or nuns were murdered?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Madness
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Damned if you do, damned if you don't
The very next week, two drunks started to fight, tearing the store apart. I threw the troublemaker out of the store, and got a written reprimand siting official policy.
Thanks for the mixed signals, corporate America. Seems like criminals have more rights than their victims.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What an idiot !!!!
What if the person who was carrying the gun as legally allowed to do so ?
What if he was an undercover cop ?
If you are SO stupid that you try to take a gun off someone, then you have no right to work at Wallmart, or ANY other company.
If you are THAT STUPID, you are a risk to yourself, and to everyone around you.
Wallmart would be criminal to NOT fire this idiot.
It's a wonder that the man who had the gun, does not sue him for all he has, for assault and theft.
these are the kinds of idiots that need to be in jail, for their own safety and for the safety of everyone else.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What if the man he disarmed was a cop trying to stop a crime ?
What if that gun had of 'went off' once the idiot grabbed in off the robber, and when it 'went off' that someone was killed ?
What if the guy who had the gun was FBI or a cop and had pulled out his (LEGAL) gun to catch a criminal ?
So this wallmart idiot, attacks the FBI agent, takes his gun and the criminal gets away to kill other people !!!
You hear the is a crazed gunman running around a shopping mall, you enter the mall and you see a man with a gun, you attack him, and you kill him, you are a hero.
Except that was not the gunman that was a cop trying to find the gun man.
And due to your actions and stupidity, the gunman kills another 20 people, because you killed the only person capable of stopping him..
He not only should have been fired, he should have been imprisoned.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I was going to reply but
How many hypotheticals does it take for moral justice?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: I was going to reply but
if it takes that much for you to understand, that is.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: I was going to reply but
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Gun Toting Shoplifter in Utah and the AP
[ link to this | view in chronology ]