Big Media To Innovative App Maker: Stop Innovating Without Our Permission!
from the permission-nation dept
There are a bunch of different newsreader type apps out there, and for years there have been all sorts of apps that let you aggregate content into personal collections. A new one, which recently hit the market for iPads, is called Zite and, apparently, it's getting pretty good reviews. Basically, it can look at what you follow on things like Twitter and Google Reader and formats an algorithmically chosen aggregation of that content to look something like a magazine. If you're familiar with Flipboard, it's somewhat similar, but the implementation is a bit different. I remember when Flipboard came out, there were copyright questions concerning how it scraped various websites.However, for whatever reason, this new service Zite has really set off pretty much everyone in the traditional newspaper business. A list of who's who in the newspaper/magazine world, including the Associated Press, the Washington Post, Dow Jones, Scripps, Gannett, McClatchy, Time and even National Geogrpahic, all teamed up to send a nastygram (embedded below) that effectively says "hey, we're all for innovation, but you can't innovate without first paying us."
Now, to be clear, technically these newspapers may have a point concerning the fact that Zite displays their content. But if you start to go down that path, you suddenly realize that so does a browser. Zite is really just a form of a browser, that tries to make their content more useful. Again, some may point out that Zite strips some ads from publications, but, again, so do many browsers that have ad blocking extensions installed. When viewed that way, how is Zite really anything other than a specialized browser? If they're claiming that's infringing, then is it really that different from claiming that other browsers/aggregating tools are infringing.
And, honestly, if creating an app that makes it easier to read your content is a threat to your business, you're doing business wrong.
I will say I'm a bit surprised to see the NY Times missing from the list of angry publications, since they've gotten upset about similar apps in the past, but really, this just seems like another example of publications thinking that anyone making their content more readable has to first get permission. If someone wants to make Techdirt content more readable, please go right ahead.
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Filed Under: copyright, flipboard, innovation, permission, zite
Companies: associated press, down jones, gannett, mcclatchy, scripps, washington post, zite
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Browsers do this without extensions
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Never hear a peep.
Guess all those news/content/media company don't have the guts to go up against Apple, but feel like they can crash small developer/firms into the ground.
Now that's the American Way!
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It takes a bit
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Just a thought...
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So I guess Google's search algorithm is wasted code too, right?
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You see, they want their cake and eat it to. They treat it like a physical good that can be stolen and have you charged with a crime. If it is real property, then I have the right of first sale and can do with it what I want. But wait, then they want it treated like IP with all sorts of protection and license schemes where they get to tell you how you can use it. So which is it? You can't have it both ways.
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To some degree, they do. First, copyright is about preventing you from doing something with their content - namely copying it. The question about Zite is not about YOU consuming the content, it is about whether or not that Zite is doing constitutes unlicensed "copying".
I think what they are doing is a good thing and should be allowed. The point that they are simply a browser that is a bit untraditional seems right-on to me. I guess if they were stopped by copyright, you the news organizations could write their websites optimized for a single browser and tell every other browser maker that they cannot display the website (or license their content to browser makers) but that seems like a bad business model when your business is about getting as many people as possible to read your content so you can sell ads.
It seems to me that the proper response here (since they all got together) would be to either partner with Zite to put places for the ads into the magazine format (since it is a magazine format, there should be an appropriate place) and provide Zite their expertise in selling these ads, or to band together and make their own product that works as good or better than Zite and out-innovate them. The news organizations being scraped SHOULD have the upper-hand here since they can have access to the content earlier, know about website changes sooner, and can add all kinds of additional value in the way of access to the writers.
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Only to a very small degree. It is I, Joe Consumer, that gets the final say as I can choose not to consume their content at all.
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You see, you want your cake and eat it too. You don't want to have to pay actual money for content, and when asked to pay with your attention (to advertising on a website) you also want to be able to remove that. You can't have it both ways, something has to pay for the content to get created or there is none.
This is a perfect example of why the NYT isn't wrong, even if they are a little to early to the game. They have seen the future, and it can't be ad based.
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I don't pay for content because their content isn't worth paying for. If I am paying for news, it better be as unbiased as possible, well researched and accurate. Since they can't be bothered to provide any of those things, I can't be bothered to pay for it. Why should I have to go to 3 or 4 sources to try to source out the real story when that is what they should be doing?
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The cost of content for the consumer is going to zero. I keep saying this.
Until the late 70's, early 80's TV was free to the consumer. Networks made money off advertising. Cable gave people better clarity of image, and more channels which is the added value that people were paying for. With the internet the lines dedicated to cable are no longer needed. Charging people for content that contains advertising isn't going to fly. Now the networks can get away with this because it is bundled in the cable bill.
If you look at the trends for actual newspapers. The ones that go from paid to free increase their sales substantially. There is a russian in the UK doing this and he is making money hand over fist.
"something has to pay for the content to get created or there is none."
Two words "Huffington Post". They found a non traditional way to generate content.
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yeah, but building a business on the back of free writers and then selling out for hundreds of millions. Another business model that depends on suckers to work.
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I think he gets it. I think he just does not like it. Everything he throws out is misdirection and designed to confuse the issue.
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Also if you noticed he didn't respond to facts, TV was once free to consumers, and free (real) newspapers have better circulation and make more money. He totally avoided the value added piece on why people paid for cable.
In the end his target was the "poor unpaid workers" and how unfair it is.
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Following your logic anytime a company is sold the employees should be paid a percentage of the profits. Profiting on the backs of workers is the way capitalism works. You can take your left leaning, entitled, socialist attitude some place else.
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I like the way you think.
"You can take your left leaning, entitled, socialist attitude some place else."
I, for one, will keep my left-leaning (let's not beat around the push, it's not leaning, it fell over a long time ago), socialist attitude right here, thanks.
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FTFY
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1997 called - they want their absurdist argument back.
Seriously - by that logic Mozilla, Opera, Google and Microsoft should have to pay every web designer of every website ever made. It's just fucking bullshit.
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No it isn't. The companies that publish web pages do so with the understanding of how the browsers work. HTML mark up is fairly standard these days, cross browser compatibility for the most part is pretty good.
Companies choose to put information on their websites and allow the public to access them without fee. That doesn't grant the browser companies rights to the content.
The choice is made by the content provider, not the conduit for it's delivery.
If the companies choose not to be part of this other format for presentation, they should be allowed to opt out of it. It isn't presenting pages in the original html format, so why should they be allowed to transform the content in this manner?
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"The choice is made by the content provider, not the conduit for it's delivery."
It is not the browser companies accessing the content, it is the operator of the browser. If he chooses a non-standards compliant browser, then that is his choice. He is choosing how he wants to view the content. You can put content out on the net for free and then complain about how the people view it.
Why do you or any content producer get to tell me how I render the content from web page? You optimize it how you want and I will view it how I want.
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Using Firefox 4, I can tweak some design elements of how pages are viewed on MY computer. Is that wrong?
I think you've lost touch with reality, my touched, touchless friend.
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Their choice was, in fact, the conduit. Once released upon the conduit you can crunch and scrunch any damn way you please. If they publish and allow public access they have granted irrevocable "rights" for any single thing that can sniff the wire, listen, read and paint.
done. game is over. no more dice. no two out of three. hasta.
\r
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So you're saying the work is transformative?
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10 pages of Lawyers
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Re: 10 pages of Lawyers
-CF
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Mike, you're thinking that these companies are in the publishing business. They aren't - they are in the advertising business.
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Nope. I know they're in the ad business. They're still doing it wrong. In some ways, I'm partly in the ad business too, but I love it when our content is more widely distributed.
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Your attempts to put "ads in the flow" is a failure, because it just leads to people dropping your feed or using keyword / section searches to filter out your ads again.
You don't have to be much of a futurist to see where this goes.
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I still have the cognitive ability to decide which ads I click and in my lifetime I can happily say that I've never once purposely clicked an ad.
So, since I don't click ads anyway, is it okay if I use this app?
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You use smarter business models. Like we do.
Your attempts to put "ads in the flow" is a failure, because it just leads to people dropping your feed or using keyword / section searches to filter out your ads again.
Uh huh.
You don't have to be much of a futurist to see where this goes.
Do tell me, where does it go? I'm so interested.
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Do tell me, where does it go? I'm so interested.
Oh, oh, oh,oh, pick me!! pick me!! I know!! ;)
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Who cares where it goes? Do you honestly believe that without copyright protection that no content would ever be produced?
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I am certain no content will ever be produced again if copyright fails. I mean they never wrote a book before 1709.
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A New Era of Ambulance Chasers
I'm sure I wrote something here that warrants a nastygram from some blood sucking, low life, scum of the earth lawyer......
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Social Games as News Aggregator
Sharing content is making folks feel important, expert even. Social games thrive on this peer based "leaderboard" status.
Gamify the way people experience the news. We can combine sharing the news, in any format, with proven games dynamics and incentives.
There are many ways to do this and make it so content is digital goods that players must have or sponsors provide for free. Make the sponsorship part of the experience and not just an extraneous banner.
Global Innovation Game (GiG) is enabling players to share content in the context of worldwide news events. It's the stock market for the global ideas economy. Check out GiG's market and see what your solutions are worth.
http://apps.facebook.com/globalinnovationgame
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Dear Sir or Madam,
Kiss my ass. Have a good day.
Sincerely,
Unfortunately, in the real world, the response from Zite will probably waste 3 pages of legalese speak to say exactly the same thing.
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Use of logos to promote app
But as long as the App is not reaching behind a paywall (even a "free" paywall) then I would have to agree that this is really just a browser. There is no law that I know of that requires a browser to respect HTML markup. So if the content provider puts their content on the web for free-global consumption, then the content will be consumed by all.
If you don't get that, then you don't get the Internet. That simple.
-CF
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Sorry Mike, you are wrong on this one
ZITE just needs to adhere to fair use law, and provids only an excerp of the original, and this would go away.
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Re: Sorry Mike, you are wrong on this one
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Re: Re: Re: Sorry Mike, you are wrong on this one
How is that a violation of copyright? By this logic, if two browsers interpret the HTML differently one or both are infringing because the aren't doing it right. Changing the format cannot be in any serious way compared to copyright infringement.
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Re: Re: Re: Sorry Mike, you are wrong on this one
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Re: Sorry Mike, you are wrong on this one
Unfortunately, the content the provider wants me to see and the content I care about are two different things.
I can guarantee you if I cannot get content the way I want, I will either not bother with their services or find a way to make it what I want.
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Re: Sorry Mike, you are wrong on this one
From the user perspective the difference is probably immaterial, but from a technology perspective it's key.
A service implies that ZITE is collecting, manipulating, and rebroadcasting content. If the App is reading publicly available web content, there is no law that states that the HTML code (markup) must be respected. Are you under a different impression?
-CF
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Re: Re: Sorry Mike, you are wrong on this one
Browsers may by design or by error, fail to render an HTML page the way designer intended, but the browser doesn't add anything to the presentation.
ZITE's service/app or whatever you want to call it, does add to the presentation.
So the argument that it's simply a different browser, thus not subject to any copy right restriction isn't a valid one.
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Re: Re: Re: Sorry Mike, you are wrong on this one
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News is IP??
"News" is not Intellectual Property. If I tell my neighbor about some gossip from my other neighbor what law says I OWN the IP on that story, even if I am the first to tell the story?
When will these old farts get with the program.... everything that CAN be copied WILL be copied. To fight against it is like trying to swim up a water fall.
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