Film Company That's Sued Thousands Might Not Even Own Rights To Film It's Suing Over
from the now-that's-how-it's-done dept
Wired has a "big" story up covering how various indie filmmakers seem to be jumping on the "sue downloaders as a business model," bandwagon. It notes that for some filmmakers, these legal shakedowns are becoming the business model of choice:Welcome to the future of Hollywood, or at least the less glittery outskirts of Tinsel Town that produce art films, exploitation flicks and porn. Over the past year, small-budget film producers have nearly perfected a slick, courtroom-based business strategy that’s targeted more than 130,000 suspected movie downloaders.As the article notes, this is wholly different from the RIAA's multi-year lawsuit strategy (which was a big money loser), which was supposed to be about deterrent. These new lawsuits are all about squeezing people for cash. Of course, if you read Techdirt, there's not much new there. But it is a nice piece bringing a bunch of these stories together.
But here is something new. Over at THREsq, Eriq Gardner picks up on the Wired story, and notes that the main example used by Wired reporter David Kravets, the B-movie Nude Nuns With Big Guns -- which Camelot Distribution Group has used to sue 5,865 alleged downloaders, claiming they're owed $880 million dollars -- may be even more ridiculous than some of the others. That's because Camelot is being sued by Incentive Capital for "breach of contract and fraud" in relation to a $650,000 loan that was given to Camelot to acquire the rights to various films, including Nude Nuns With Big Guns. Since Camelot failed to live up to its payment requirements, Incentive foreclosed on the film -- to which "no objection was made." So, technically, it appears that Camelot no longer holds the rights to the movie at all... despite the lawsuits over it.
Yes, you read that right. Camelot didn't make the movie. It has little to do with the movie. It apparently took out a loan to acquire the rights, sued nearly 6,000 people demanding cash for downloading the movie... and, according to the company who lent it the money, failed to pay back the loan, meaning they took control over the rights. Think about that for a second. That's quite a business model: borrow money, "buy" the rights to a film, sue thousands of people demanding they pay up, and don't pay back the loan, let the lending company "reclaim" the rights, but keep the lawsuits (and the cashflow) coming in.
Of course, it seems like this could open Camelot up to serious legal consequences, especially since it filed the lawsuit against those thousands of file sharers approximately two weeks after Incentive allegedly took over the rights to the film...
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: file sharing, lawsuits, loan, nude nuns with big guns, ownership, p2p
Companies: camelot distribution group, incentive capital
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
So big deal, the fine is a slap on the wrist compared with the fine of (accidental) infringement. They have everything to gain and little to lose.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Without knowing the dates of the alleged infringements, your article is pure FUD. Have you considered pulling up the filing to see the dates of the alleged infringements? Rather than FUDing it out, you could actually do some research to see if there's really an issue.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
I said nothing of the sort. I'm merely pointing out that there is likely no issue here with Camelot bringing suits against those who infringed their rights while they owned those rights. The subsequent transfer of rights is irrelevant.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
And the point you missed everyone making here is that you're definition of "no issue" is narrowly limited to the law.
It's like (over) stating that there was "no issue" in owning a slave in 1800.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I gave you none, nor do I give you one now.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You have to show that it's fraud first.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You have to show that it's fraud first."
This is awesome. AC vs AC. Its like having an automatic pilot for intellectual property arguments.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Surely you can't argue they 'lost' that money, they no longer have the rights to it. Of course there's an issue here, stop spreading your FUD, AC.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Surely you can't argue they 'lost' that money, they no longer have the rights to it. Of course there's an issue here, stop spreading your FUD, AC.
I didn't say anything about harm. I'm merely pointing out that Mike's conclusion is pure FUD. If the infringements happened while they owned the rights, they retain the right to sue for the infringement even if the rights subsequently changed ownership. I am spreading no FUD.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Not true. Ownership transferred when the contract was perfected.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yes, the rights appear to have returned to Incentive. What's important for the alleged infringers is whether or not Camelot owned the rights when the infringement allegedly occurred.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Let me give you an analogy. Let's say you own a car and you are in wreck with some guy, and it's that guy's fault. You subsequently sell your car to someone else. You can still sue the guy who hit you, even though you do not own the car. You still retain the right to sue for the accident that happened when you owned the car.
Therefore, realistically, any monies earned after that time were deceptively obtained. So the ethical issue raised above is that there are monies obtained by deception, which is different from fraud legally speaking.
If the rights did transfer back to Incentive, then indeed Camelot would not be able to sue people who infringed on those rights after they transferred back. However, it's not clear that these rights did in fact transfer back to Incentive. That's simply Incentive's claim.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Except, I don't own the car. I borrowed/leased it temporarily as part of my master plan, being to get into an accident in order to gain the excuse of suing someone for monetary gain. No matter what analogy you use, it will always boils down to an IMMORAL abuse of copyright and the law. I agree with a previous poster, the problem stems from people seeing IP rights the same as property rights, and this story shows us once again why that needs to change.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You are assuming facts not in evidence. If this was some immoral scheme, I'd agree with you. But as it is, you're making assumptions.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Plus, this wasn't a sale of ownership. This was a foreclosure. They arguably didn't fulfill their obligations that would give them legitimate ownership over the titles in the first place.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Plus, this wasn't a sale of ownership. This was a foreclosure. They arguably didn't fulfill their obligations that would give them legitimate ownership over the titles in the first place.
My understanding is that the accreted right to sue remains with the transferor unless explicitly granted to the transferee. The foreclosure subsequent to the breach of contract did not rescind the contract. The rights were still Camelot's for a period of time.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 1st, 2011 @ 9:05am
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 1st, 2011 @ 9:05am
Not my logic at all. That would be fraud. I'm not defending anyone. I'm merely pointing out what I believe to be in fact the law.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 1st, 2011 @ 9:05am
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 1st, 2011 @ 9:05am
If they intended not to pay the loan, just to temporarily gain the rights, then it is fraud.
If they planned to pay the loan, and were unable to do so, then it isn't fraud.
Personally, I don't see how they could have honestly expected to make enough money in time to service the loan.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 1st, 2011 @ 9:05am
If they intended not to pay the loan, just to temporarily gain the rights, then it is fraud.
If they planned to pay the loan, and were unable to do so, then it isn't fraud.
Personally, I don't see how they could have honestly expected to make enough money in time to service the loan.
That's exactly right. For it to be fraud, there must that intent. We have no information one way or the other whether it was fraud or not. If it was fraud, then the contract could be rescinded, and the rights would therefore have never transferred to Camelot.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 1st, 2011 @ 9:05am
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 1st, 2011 @ 9:05am
I'm not saying that at all. We don't know whether Camelot intended to repay the loan or not. I'm not saying I support anything. I'm simply trying to explain and understand the legal issues at play here. I in no way support fraud, and if this is fraud, I hope Camelot is held accountable.
Incentive is suing for breach of contract and fraud. If they win the fraud case, the contract can be rescinded. That would mean the rights never transferred to Camelot. If it's merely a breach of contract without fraud, then the rights were owned by Camelot for a period of time, and they can sue people who infringed during that time.
I don't know if this is fraud or not. If it turns out to be ruled fraud, that could get the alleged infringers off the hook.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 1st, 2011 @ 9:05am
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Mike's final paragraph indicates otherwise: "Of course, it seems like this could open Camelot up to serious legal consequences, especially since it filed the lawsuit against those thousands of file sharers approximately two weeks after Incentive allegedly took over the rights to the film..."
Morally, I'm on board with what Mike is saying. Legally, I disagree.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yes, I was responding to the legal issues that Mike raised. Not sure why that ruffles everyone's feathers. That last paragraph was all FUD. Mike can't write a story about infringement lawsuits without spreading FUD all over it. That much is clear.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Is it still FUD if it's true?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Ownership transferred when the contract was perfected, regardless of whether Camelot paid the price. The article mentions that Camelot did make payments at first, so you're apparently wrong about that, but that is irrelevant to the issue of transfer of ownership.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
It's the new phase in hiring mercenary contracts. Not putting anything on the market? Get a patent.
Not sure about your creation of yesteryear? Get a copyright?
Want to make money with little effort? Sue the other people with fake property.
*thumbs up*
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I'm not defending anyone. I'm merely explaining the law. Are you not interested in understanding what the law actually is here? I suppose understanding things is not for everyone. Personally, I'm obsessed with understanding how things work.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Apparently not quite so obsessed with paying attention to what's going on.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Actually, what I was wondering about, was if they still require ethics classes in law school anymore.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Did you cheat on the final exam?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The thing I'm mocking was that transferring of copyright. That sure as hell doesn't help the artists involved.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
That doesn't change the analysis. Ownership still transferred to them when the contract was perfected. Ownership transfers even if the price is paid with a loan. Banks don't own everything they give a loan on. That's not how it works.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
A mortgage is a specific type of loan agreement. I've not seen the terms of this agreement, but I wouldn't assume that they are similar.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
That's not how it works. When you mortgage your house, you are the owner. I think there is a common misconception about this.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Have you? I've read the filing and know that the dates of the alleged infringements range between January and March this year. Rather than FUDing it out, you could actually do some research yourself to see if there's really an issue.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Good job finding that. All of the alleged infringements are for before February 21, 2011, except for the very last one listed, which is for February 22, 2011. So 5,864 out of 5,865 of the alleged infringements appear to be during the period when Camelot still owned the rights. So there really is only an issue with one defendant. It's easy enough to dismiss that one defendant, so it's quite simple to fix this problem--if it even is a problem. We do not know for certain that the rights really went back to Incentive. That's just their claim--that's not what the court said. I FUDed nothing out, vivaelamor. Try harder.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
Scroll through the whole list. If you had bothered to do that instead of scrolling to the bottom and assuming I was wrong then you might have noticed that the list is sorted by ISP before date.
"I FUDed nothing out, vivaelamor. Try harder."
Please, don't try harder; you'll only embarrass yourself more.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
If that's the case, then those 727 defendants might be off the hook if indeed the rights did transfer back to Incentive on Feb. 21. The other 5K or so defendants are banking on Incentive winning their fraud claim and having the contract rescinded completely. Otherwise, they're still on the hook.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Extortion Unleashed
It seems that a "piece" for laying a claim can be virtually anything. Escaped seeds as infringement. The assertion by some music collection societies that animals listening to music requires a license. Mike even noted: "Belgian Collection Society SABAM Caught Taking Cash For Made Up Bands It Didn't Represent". Then there are the bulk broadcast pre-settlement offers that are just mailed out to see what sticks.
Unfortunately, if one becomes a victim of these extortionary actions they could be bankrupted. For the accuser found making a false claim. "Sorry about that. And by the way, no refund on your legal fees for defending yourself against our bullying."
If extortion is considered a legitimate business plan, the "intellectual property" crowd is setting a very bad example should they want people to respect their so-called "Intellectual Property" rights.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
An online magazine holds itself to higher standards than the US justice system. How low the mighty have fallen...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
We have a scenario that will changing the world of film history.
I am a Korean.
We have a scenario that will changing the world of film history.
Everybody has good imagination, but this one is more than that.
Whatever you expect, I can give you more.
You will never be disappointed.
kimskyload@naver.com
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I have all evidences for my legal reasonable doubt :
- that two mayor US film companies : 20-th CENTURY FOX and UNIVERSAL PICTURES (together with 7 other US film companies) have done pure copyright infringement and plagiarism of my registerd script MAGMA TOWN, and shot in the year 1996/1997 two movies : VOLCANO and DANTE'S PEAK, and released them in Spring 1997 and grossed till today about $520 million.
- that based my registered script MAGMA TOWN from 1994., based of which script, Jerome Armstrong wrote his script VOLCANO, and sold it for US$500,000 to FOX 2000 PICTURES (Laura Ziskin) together with Neal H. Moritz like prospective Producer, in November 1995.
- that screenwriter Leslie Bohem has made pure plagiarism of my registered script MAGMA TOWN, and sold his script DANTE'S PEAK to UNIVERSAL PICTURES for US $1,200,000 and also, that for me unknown screenwriter plagiated also my registered script MAGMA TOWN, and sold his script RING OF FIRE to WALT DISNEY PICTURES for US $800,000, all in Autumn of 1995. .
I have sued all those 9 US film companies by the proper court here in my country Serbia in the year 2000., and the court case is ongoing.
You can open 3 different websites below : from FACEBOOK, 4-th place on the list counted from the end backward, with notices about plagiarism of many high budget American films, that are shot on the basis of carried out of plagiarism right by where you can find that I am the only one writer who is two times on the lists on those websites and that > Rank 15. VOLCANO and Rank 17. DANTE'S PEAK, which were shot on the basis of my original and registered script MAGMA TOWN, on what basis plagiators/companies have grossed in my view possible about US$520 million from 1997. till today. Open websites :
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=402105162641
from FACEBOOK, 4-th place on the list counted from the end backwards, movies : VOLCANO. 1997 Mick Jackson / DANTE'S PEAK. 1997 Roger Donaldson, - MagmaTown (Aleksandar Skocajic script, 1994)
http://www.mahiram.com/sufia/blog/181/
http://www.infotoday.com/IT/nov03/poynder2.shtml
If you are interested for this story, you can contact me by email, post address or phone, - all located at the end of the email below. If you are not interested for this copyright infringement story, please inform someone who might be interested.
Aleksandar PHONE NUMBER : 011-381-11-2836-304
Best calling about 1,00 P.M. L. A. time
E-mail address : axxskocajic@elitesecurity.org
[ link to this | view in chronology ]