TSA Takes Security Theater On The Road: Mobile Groping Teams Can Pop Up Anywhere

from the somehow-this-makes-me-feel-less-safe dept

Tue, Jun 21st 2011 11:36am — Mike Masnick

Via Julian Sanchez, we learn that the TSA has apparently been taking its security theater on the road, with special mobile teams, as a part of its VIPR (Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response) program. These teams apparently show up unannounced, and start their usual groping and scanning procedures at bus stations, train and subway stations, and occasionally even on passenger cars.

While the TSA is claiming it's doing this to "prevent terrorism" (of course), some are noting that the TSA is working closely with ICE on these efforts, and it often seems like these "random" searches are specifically targeting potential illegal immigrants, rather than actual terrorist threats.

Of course, no one has a problem with the general idea of stopping terrorism or enforcing the basics of the law. But it does seem highly questionable, on basic 4th Amendment points, for the TSA to just magically drop in a team that gets to search people without any other basis beyond "we're here from the TSA, and we're here to grope."

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Filed Under: privacy, searches, tsa

105 Comments

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Jay (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:43am

Odd...
So let's get this straight...

The FBI goes after American activists and the ICE goes after "rogue sites", illegal immigrants, and Americans in general.

I guess it must be time to burn up that piece of paper that spelled out what rights people seem to have in this country.

*sigh*
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Jesse (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:48am

What an embarrassment
I continue to turn down every chance to travel to or through the US because of this blatant disrespect for basic human rights.
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Gabriel Tane (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:48am

Re: Odd...
I think every administration since LINCOLN has used that peice of paper to wipe various bodily orifices... not sure I�d want to burn it at this point.
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SpacePirate, 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:49am

I'm writing a letter, anyone want to sign?
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation...
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Donnicton, 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:49am

NOBODY expects the....TSA Groping Teams..?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:50am

Re: What an embarrassment
so where are you from Jesse?
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weneedhelp (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:52am

Whoooossssshhhhhhh
The sound of the Constitution going down the toilet.
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Christopher Gizzi (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:53am

GL with that.
I'd like them to try and scan the NYC Subway turnstiles. I dare them.
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John Doe, 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:55am

I hope this fails miserably
It is one thing to do this at the airport where everyone now expects it to happen. But when you sign up for a train or bus ride, you have no expectation of being groped and can't in anyway be considered to having given consent.

I just spent a few days in Philly, visiting the birthplace of our country and the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I can only imagine what the signers of the Declaration of Independence would think if they could see the police state we have become.

But then again, GW did lead the charge against the whiskey rebellion, which really disappoints me.
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ChurchHatesTucker (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:59am

Whoooooo!
It's going to be SO MUCH easier to set up my long-planed Gropeapalooza now.

Thanks, TSA!
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Ima Fish (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:00pm

Most people don't know this, but the federal border patrol's jurisdiction actually goes 100 miles into the border. Some entire states are fully under the federal border patrol's jurisdiction.

Some people call these zones "Constitution free zones" because border patrols can search without any legal impediment.
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John Doe, 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:01pm

Re: Whoooooo!
That gives me an idea, I will dress up as a TSA agent this Halloween and everyone will have a good laugh when I grope them.
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Gabriel Tane (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:03pm

Re: I hope this fails miserably
But didn't you know? The TERRORISTS KNOW THIS! If the TSA doesn't scan EVERYTHING! then the terrorists will just use whatever's NOT being scanned!

Gotta tell you, little Johnny next door can hide ANYTHING in those paper-route bags... scares the hell outta me. PROTECT ME TSA!!!

/obvious sarcasm
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SomeGuy (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:03pm

Re: I hope this fails miserably
It is one thing to do this at the airport where everyone now expects it to happen.

No, it's not. This is as wrong in the airports as it is in the bus stations; saying otherwise is naive and dangerous.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:05pm

What I find amazing is that you actually believe the story.

First off, since the TSA doesn't ask for ID, there is no "going after immigrants" here. That is your first tip that this is a scare tactic story. Second, there is no indication of "groping", again a nice scary term.

The funniest part is that if there was a bombing in a subway or train system, I am sure the same people bitching about this would show up complaining that the TSA (or other agencies) didn't do enough.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:10pm

Re:
I find it amazing that you think asking for ID is necessary for going after immigrants.
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Jay (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:13pm

Re:
Arizona disagrees with you.
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John William Nelson (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:15pm

Those who choose safety over liberty . . .
The Border Search Exception is how the Border Patrol/ICE folks are able to work with the TSA to do some of these searches.

If you're interested in the Border Search Exception, I've written a brief overview here: http://www.lextechnologiae.com/2011/06/03/strip-searches-of-the-mind-why-the-government-can-search-y our-laptop-at-the-border/

I also have a paper arguing for reasonable suspicion being required in laptop border searches, and it also goes over the border search exception here: http://ssrn.com/abstract=1469292

As for other transportation related searches, there is good reason to think the TSA may be overstepping its bounds, but there is also pessimistic reasons for believing the courts will look the other way in the name of safety.

I've also written on the TSA searches and the Fourth Amendment, and my post links to some excellent law review articles on TSA screening at airports (the legality of which will be shared by the likes of AmTrak).

You can read that post here: http://www.lextechnologiae.com/2010/11/18/tsa-scans-patdowns-do-these-violate-the-4th-amendment-mayb e/

I'm optimistic the tea party folks, as much as I disagree with them on so many issues, will help bring this chapter of 4th Amendment violations to a close.
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non-anonymous coward (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:16pm

4th Amendment and Travel
So let me see if I understand. The 4th amendment still applies while traveling, except when using one of the following means:

Aircraft
Bus
Train
Subway
Ship
Car

If you whiners don't want to be harassed, just avoid these.

Will you libertarians please stop complaining?
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Greg G (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:17pm

Re:
They sure aren't forcing you to sit in comfy chairs and poking you with soft pillows!
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John William Nelson (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:17pm

Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
You forgot walking. At least within a reasonable distance of the border. Which might be, in the eyes of a court, 100 miles or more. Or near a border entry, like an international airport.
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Matthew (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:18pm

Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
I suspect that they would not hesitate to stop a horseback rider, bicyclist, or hiker who happened to be near one of their operations, so remember. If you don't want to get groped, stay at home.
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Rikuo (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:20pm

I hereby say that I will never travel to the United States. Not with this kind of police state build up.
Second, I remember several people saying that once you're in the airport, you're legally obliged to go through security. What about at the bus terminal? At the train station? There is a fourth amendment for a reason, and that is for the average person to feel safe and secure from unreasonable searches, especially from simply taking public transportation! This has gone too far. What's next? Random pat-downs of pedestrians on the street?
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Greg G (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:25pm

Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
According to that list, the only safe modes of transportation left is:

Motorcycle
Bicycle
Pedestrian

And these are probably only safe for the time being, and only because they are limited in the number of people that can be transported via the vehicle.

The next to be stopped with be either Pedestrians because they can march en mass, or Bicycles because of a phenomena known as a Peloton or Paceline.

Watch out, Tour de France cyclists, TSA gropers may attempt to mobilize there to make sure your peloton isn't carrying any bombs under those saddles.
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non-anonymous coward (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:30pm

Re:
Random pat-downs are already happening in Philadelphia. I guess I should add "walking" to my list of transportation means to avoid.
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ChurchHatesTucker (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:33pm

Re:
I hereby say that I will never travel to the United States.

More power to you. I *live* here and I don't travel anymore. I just know that being forced to choose between being irradiated and having some McDonald's reject grabbing my junk would just end unpleasantly for all concerned.
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el_segfaulto (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:35pm

Re:
And if there's a bombing at a school or a house, would you want the TSA there too?
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el_segfaulto (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:38pm

Re:
Unfortunately I live here and although things haven't gotten horribly bad on the West Coast (yet), I am seriously considering emigration to another English speaking nation. Unfortunately they all seem to be going down this same road.
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Gwiz (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:38pm

Re:
The funniest part is that if there was a bombing in a subway or train system, I am sure the same people bitching about this would show up complaining that the TSA (or other agencies) didn't do enough.

Well, I am not convinced that anything the TSA is doing is actually effective in the first place.

But, yeah, I might bitch about the other agencies. Especially after slowly eroding our civil rights on things like warrantless wiretapping, GPS tracking, electronic communication monitoring, etc. all in the name of preventing terrorism. If these agencies fail to prevent a terrorist attack, then I want my rights back immediately.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:38pm

Idea!
Note: Eat boiled eggs and drink stale beer before traveling. Shit self loudly if approached by agent.
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non-anonymous coward (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:43pm

Re: Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
I've done some more research. I find that now the police can cause the reason by which they enter your home without a warrant. In Philly at least, the police can search you on the street without a reason. I am therefore amending my 4th amendment list.

Places to avoid if you wish to retain 4th amendment protections:

Your home
Anywhere other than your home
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Parkway Cozy, 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:43pm

C'mon. The TSA isn't looking for terrorists. You are just slowly being 'acclimated'. In a few years, you'll want them around. You'll miss them when they're not. That's how it worked in Munich, anyway.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:46pm

Re: GL with that.
I'd like them to try and scan the NYC Subway turnstiles. I dare them.

To be fair, the NYPD has, at times, set up similar search checkpoints at subway stops, including searching the contents of bags people were bringing onto the subway.

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/52265/nypd-announces-bag-searches-in-subways-after -more-explosions-rock-london
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DannyB (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:49pm

Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
Modes of transportation is the wrong indicator.

The 4th amendment still applies while traveling for people who are unattractive to the TSA gropers.
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known coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:53pm

Re: Re: GL with that.
In the subways if you do not want to be Groped ^h ^h ^h i mean searched you can turn around and not get on the subway.

I think the TSA rules are different.

that said as i have said before, we should repeal the first 10th admendements to the constitution. We are no longer protected by them, it is time to stop being hypocritical about it.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:56pm

for several years now I have distrusted the path our government has taken. If they want to know why things like anonymous or lulzsec are happening, point to this article and the hundreds of others like it
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John Doe, 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:56pm

Re: Re: I hope this fails miserably
No, it's not. This is as wrong in the airports as it is in the bus stations; saying otherwise is naive and dangerous.

Believe me, I agree completely. I have been groped once so far because I turned down the naked scanners. I don't appreciate being groped or nuked and feel it is a violation of the 4th amendment. I am a big fan of the Constitution and do not even think the license checks on our roads are legal.
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E. Zachary Knight (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:57pm

Re:
Considering the majority of people complaining about the TSA are doing so with full knowledge that it was created as a response to the 9/11 terrorist attack, I doubt an attack on a subway, train or bus will change their mind.
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SysOp (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 12:57pm

Welcome to...
The Department of Homeland KGB
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:04pm

Re: Re: What an embarrassment
He probably comes from a country called Not USA.
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[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:08pm

Re: Welcome to...
Transportation Stasi Agency.
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codeslave (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:12pm

Re: Re: Re: GL with that.
Hey, we still have Third Amendment protections! Well, so far... I'm sure there are groups trying to figure out how to violate that one.
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US, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:12pm

Re: Re: What an embarrassment
so where are you from Jesse?

Maybe we can send you a special team. Borders don't US.
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Prince Manjee, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:12pm

Re: Odd...
YUP! Welcome to the Fascist States of America !
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:15pm

Re: Re:
You could always try a non-English-speaking nation. The same way people go to the USA to learn English, you could go to a non-English-speaking nation and learn the local language there.
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STJ, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:18pm

Re:
If there was a bombing, I would expect the police, guys with proper training, to show up. I would be scared if the TSA, guys with a 2 week class and a certificate, showed up and started poking around.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:20pm

Re: I hope this fails miserably
It is one thing to do this at the airport where everyone now expects it to happen. But when you sign up for a train or bus ride, you have no expectation of being groped and can't in anyway be considered to having given consent.

But, soon, everyone will come to expect it at train and bus stations (or basically anytime they leave home) so it will be perfectly alright there too. See how that works?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:21pm

Re:
Your logic has no end. We all knew terrorists would target other unsecured places. After bus stations and trains, it'll be malls, schools, places of business.

Do we need to have TSA and DHS stationed in every street corner to keep your logic happy?

Terror has won. We have submitted to our fears.
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jonvaljon, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:23pm

Re: I hope this fails miserably
I watched an overweight woman reduced to tears because she had to remove most of her clothes to view the "liberty bell" when I was in philly. Dito for the "statue of liberty" when I was in new york. It was like a fuckin SNL skit. So sad. We have failed our country.
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Gracey (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:24pm

I guess its time to start planning our vacations in our own backyard. I wonder if the US has any idea how detrimental this could be to their tourism industry? (they probably don't care I suppose)

I was planning a trip to California and to Georgia...which suddenly I'm rethinking. I think I'd feel as if I were playing roulette no matter which mode of transportation I take.

Time to head east or west for me...but definitely not south. At least, not until I grow a pair of wings on my back and can fly myself there. But of course, the Air Force might end up shooting me down anyways.

For some odd reason, this puts me in mind of an old movie with Kurt Russell...escape from New York where NY was turned into a giant maximum security prison...it appears now this might have been premonition instead of fantasy...the next movie will be "Escape from the USA".
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:25pm

Re: Constitution free zones
Soon, the new Supreme Court will just rule that there is no expectation of privacy when you leave home. You voluntarily give up your rights when you step out of your door. But, hey, it's voluntary! So it's OK!
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cgt (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:27pm

Re: Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
But of course if you stay home you'll be executed by a SWAT team doing random warrantless searches of homes.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:28pm

Re:
The funniest part is that if there was a bombing in a subway or train system, I am sure the same people bitching about this would show up complaining that the TSA (or other agencies) didn't do enough.

Speak for yourself.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:30pm

Re: Re:
Remember when the seige with denzel was just fiction? Any day now ima see bruce willis rollin down the street on a tank rounding up "security threats." We are on our way orwell, give us a few more years and your dystopia will be fully realized. Shit, we already got cameras watching us watch tv (kinect anyone?) Cameras wired to internet connected devices equiped with facial recognition tech, gait detection and lord knows what else, roving grope squads, and constitution free zones! Hot damn we are close!
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ALLHAILPRINCE (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:32pm

Re: Odd...
YUP! Welcome to the Fascist States of America ! Soon we will have political officers (Street Cameras) on every corner. Oh wait, if you live in Chicago you already have that :)
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:37pm

Re: Re:
I am seriously considering emigration to another English speaking nation. Unfortunately they all seem to be going down this same road.

Sometimes there just isn't a "better" country to move to. That's why the US founding fathers started their own. Too bad what happened to it.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:48pm

If I hadn't read this article, and I'd run into people at the bus station who claimed to be from the TSA and that they needed to Freedom Fondle me, I would have first declared that the TSA only screens airplane passengers, then called them a bunch of idiots, then pepper sprayed them.
Having read this article, I am reconsidering the first of those three actions.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:48pm

Re: Re: Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
Sums it up. I'm not raising my kids in a home execution/grope zone. Pretty much the whole US now.

I hear it only takes 12 years to get citizenship in Switzerland..
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:53pm

Re: Re: Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
Nah, you won't be executed. Just strip-searched. They will shoot your dog, though.
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TSA Security Manager, 21 Jun 2011 @ 1:53pm

Re: Re: I hope this fails miserably
Thank you for submitting this idea.
We at the TSA know how scary it is living in this new modern world, are are here to help. Thanks to your suggestion, we're looking into setting up mobile checkpoints at house entry points to verify the security of people entering into the public area.
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Jason Harris, 21 Jun 2011 @ 2:08pm

Witnessed these myself
In the LA area, I ran into these twice in a week. Once at the station on a commuter train, and once on the subway in LA.

While they thankfully weren't groping anyone, they would not allow you on the train unless you let them search your bag. These are trains that people rely on to get to work (and often prepay for) and they appeared without warning one day. My choices were submit to search, or not go to work I guess.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 2:45pm

"TSA Takes Security Theater On The Road"

Security theater, coming to a theater near you.

Disclaimer: This show has not yet been rated.
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The eejit (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 2:45pm

Re:
Dude, the TSA is about as effective at stopping terrorism as Fred Durst losing at Limp Biscuit.
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The eejit (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 2:46pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
Come to Britain, with $500 and a fake birth certificate. Sorry, I can't lend you mine, too real to be real.
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Chris-Mouse (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 2:47pm

Re: Re:

And if there's a bombing at a school or a house, would you want the TSA there too?

Nope. I'd want someone competent to show up.
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The eejit (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 2:47pm

Re:
Who's betting it gets a U rating fast-tracked?
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r, 21 Jun 2011 @ 3:00pm

Mobile TSA
Papers! Papers please! you must haf your papers or be detained for questioning!
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Marcel de Jong (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 3:09pm

Obligatory Horatio Caine.
TSA VIPR?
This case might...

*puts on sunglasses*

...sting a little.
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TSA Security Manager, 21 Jun 2011 @ 3:55pm

Re: Re: Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
We're working on that.
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Bruce Ediger (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 4:14pm

Where are the "just take a bus or drive" trolls, now?
It's hard for me to imagine that these sorts of "random" searches are at all constitutional, much less in an American spirit. Where's the presumption of innocence? Where's the right to be secure in your person and property?

So, two things:

1. Everybody with a conscience must have quietly resigned or transferred out of ICE. The New Yorker article on Thomas Drake and the NSA (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_mayer) shows that some NSA people had consciences, and resigned over un-American activities. I will graciously assume this is true of ICE as well. Shame on the rest of the nest of VIPRs: Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and King would all be ashamed of louts such as yourself.

2. Where did all the "just take a bus, train or drive" trolls? What's next internal passports? Little "living permits" like the Soviet Union used to have? Terrorism isn't the new communism, it's even better... for the New Security State thugs and bureacrats.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 4:23pm

Re: Where are the "just take a bus or drive" trolls, now?
Where did all the "just take a bus, train or drive" trolls?

They've now become the "just stay at home" trolls.
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Thomas (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 4:43pm

Re: Odd...
Civil rights went down the drain after 9/11. Now they justify anything by saying it's necessary to fight terrorism. And anyone who objects is "pro-terrorist".

Just imagine the TSA deciding they should check people on the street? They will be able to walk up to children and "pat them down". I guess the convicted child molesters now work for the TSA.
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Thomas (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 4:47pm

Re: Re:
Which is why I decided not to visit the Grand Canyon again. They allow racial profiling and encourage it. Also read they don't have to accept other states' driver's licenses as proof of ID; so I would now need a PASSPORT to visit Arizona?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 5:50pm

Why do you think William Gibson started writing modern fiction? We have more technology and oppression than even he could have imagined in his heyday.
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Jack Booted Nazi, 21 Jun 2011 @ 5:52pm

Papiere, Bitte
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AnonymousHoratio, 21 Jun 2011 @ 7:34pm

Re: Obligatory Horatio Caine.
YYYEEEAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
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Anonymous Terrist, 21 Jun 2011 @ 7:48pm

Here is the plan against the infidels
Now that we have driven the infidels insane with fear and bankrupted their country, we are prepared to move on the second phase of our Master Plan.

Since they have now been trained/conditioned to complete obedience to the TSA (at their own expense haha) we will begin disguising our holy warriors as these Agents in order to infiltrate and place ourselves in position to accomplish great works.

Please pick up your Blue Shirt, Badge, latex gloves and 5 kilos of SemTex from the distribution agents. Begin practicing these American phrases:

"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."
"Please step this way."
"I'm only following orders."
"Why do you hate freedom?"
"I need to see your junk."

You may entertain yourselves with random practices of this infiltration until you get the GREEN signal, which should be some time in the near future. But do not lose sight of the Goal.

Your virgins await you.

JoMama Bin Layin'
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deane (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 7:56pm

dear USA,

thank you for the many years that you have been a wonderful country. I'm gonna miss you and all the good times we spent. since you've left I've gotten terrified of your replacement. he grabs my privates in public places and sticks his tongue out whenever I complain. I'm gonna miss you USA. thanks for all the good times

sincerely
Deane Truelove
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crashsuit (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 9:07pm

Kent Brockman reporting
I, for one, welcome our new fascist overlords!
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 9:20pm

Re: Idea!
Oh. My. God. I almost shit myself laughing.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 10:10pm

Re: Re: GL with that.
Well, to be fair, cops in London have, at times, shot a person several times in the head and chest for sorta kinda looking completely different from a suicide bomber.
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aldestrawk (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 10:13pm

Re: Re: Re: GL with that.
From the TSA website:

"If you refuse to be screened at any point during the screening process, the Security Officer will deny you entry beyond the screening area. You will not be able to fly."

"That person will have to remain on the premises to be questioned by the TSA and possibly by local law enforcement. Anyone refusing faces fines up to $11,000 and possible arrest."

John Tyner, the "don't touch my junk" guy, refused to be searched and was threatened with a $10,000 fine and a civil lawsuit.

A TSA manager eventually said that if Tyner would not agree to be patted down, he should be escorted from the airport. After a bit of a hassle with American Airlines, Tyner's ticket was refunded, but as he went to leave, he was stopped again by the TSA manager and another man who informed Tyner that should he complete the security check he could be "subject to a civil suit and a $10,000 fine."

I replied that he already had my information in the report that was taken and I asked if I was free to leave. I reminded him that he was now illegally detaining me and that I would not be subject to screening as a condition of leaving the airport. He told me that he was only trying to help (I should note that his demeanor never suggested that he was trying to help. I was clearly being interrogated.), and that no one was forcing me to stay. I asked if tried to leave if he would have the officer arrest me. He again said that no one was forcing me to stay. I looked him in the eye, and said, "then I'm leaving". He replied, "then we'll bring a civil suit against you", to which I said, "you bring that suit" and walked out of the airport.

So, if you enter the security checkpoint and refuse to be searched you can be detained and questioned. Neither the TSA nor a LEO can search you without further probable cause.
Just refusing to be searched is not grounds for arrest. The TSA has made the threat about fines but I don't believe they have ever followed through. Does anyone know what law such a fine would be based on?
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aldestrawk (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 10:25pm

Re:
I may a comment about this very issue last week. Both CBP and ICE have restrictions on this, avoiding 4th amendment clashes.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/0110609/22335214647/is-pretending-your-domain-name-has- been-seized-ice-new-rickroll.shtml#c801
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2011 @ 10:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: GL with that.
"Does anyone know what law such a fine would be based on?"

There is no such law in State or Federal jurisdictions. However, a VERY loose interpretation of the PATRIOT act could lead to an arrest without warrant on suspicion of terrorist activity simply because you refused to be searched. It would not hold up in court, but it would make your day suck.
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aldestrawk (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 10:32pm

Re: Re:
Try this link instead:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110609/22335214647/is-pretending-your-domain-name-has -been-seized-ice-new-rickroll.shtml#c801
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aldestrawk (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:14pm

Re: Those who choose safety over liberty . . .
There are restrictions on the border search exception.

"A search at the border�s functional equivalent is constitutionally valid when:
(1) a reasonable certainty exists that the person or thing crossed the border;
(2) a reasonable certainty exists that there was no change in the object of the search since it crossed the border; and
(3) the search was conducted as soon as practicable after the border crossing.

For the most part, the border search exception is not going to apply to any of the VIPR checkpoints. However, ICE agents can question or detain individuals anywhere in the U.S. to determine, for example, if aliens have a right to be in the U.S. One thing I am sure they cannot do at a VIPR checkpoint is search your laptop or the contents of other electronic devices.

The TSA is using all the powers they have at airports at any of these VIPR checkpoints. This includes search of your any bags, purses etc. and a physical search of you.

Additionally, they are radiation detectors, and explosives detection such as dogs. It would be interesting to know if they ever use drug detecting dogs.

As with the TSA at airports you can always decline to be searched but with the penalty of not being able to ride the train, bus, subway, or trolley. If I had brought my bomb with me I would just come back when the VIPR checkpoint is no longer there. There was even a sign at the entrance to a train station building, during a VIPR checkpoint, warning that you should expect to be searched.
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aldestrawk (profile), 21 Jun 2011 @ 11:33pm

Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
It is not clear from the linked article what kind of search was being done with passenger cars. I suspect they were only using radiation detectors and dogs. It would be problematic for them to even question the driver or passengers in light of the fact that anti-drunk checkpoints have to be announced in advance and that the driver has to be able to avoid the checkpoint after seeing it (or is that only California?). At any rate, what happens if you refuse a search or questioning? Do they force you to turn around and drive back to wherever you got your bomb? It's like saying, at an airport when you refuse a search, that you can't travel to NY but you can go to Seattle.
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mike allen (profile), 22 Jun 2011 @ 12:08am

Re: Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
I cant see even the TSA wanting to search a gang of motorcyclists like er hells angels oh hang on i would love to see that.
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Prisoner 201, 22 Jun 2011 @ 2:15am

Re: Re:
No no no, they poke your soft pillows!
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Prisoner 201, 22 Jun 2011 @ 2:20am

Re: Re:
No refunds! Fascism is a one-way process.
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trish, 22 Jun 2011 @ 5:17am

can't get away
the tsa heard some people say 'well at least I won't have to get groped since I never take a plane'. They decided to wipe that smirk off their face.
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Greg G (profile), 22 Jun 2011 @ 7:18am

Re: Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
If the TSA Gropers (which should be the name of the next major sports league [MLB, NBA, NHL, NFL] team) just came from the airport lounge, then all travellers will be attractive to them.
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Greg G (profile), 22 Jun 2011 @ 7:23am

Re:
Where exactly is he sticking his tongue?
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dwg, 22 Jun 2011 @ 9:05am

Re: groping
Really?

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/on-air/as-seen-on/Woman_claims_new_TSA_Security_Protocol_amo unts_to_legalized_groping_Los_Angeles-106802483.html

http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2010/11/j ohn_tyner_tsa_search.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgqPmDpUv10

http://www.youtube.com/wat ch?v=ADZUQUfJoBk&feature=related
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2011 @ 2:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GL with that.
However, a VERY loose interpretation of the PATRIOT act could lead to an arrest without warrant on suspicion of terrorist activity simply because you refused to be searched. It would not hold up in court, but it would make your day suck.

As a suspected terrorist, you may be considered to "dangerous" to ever get a trial. That could make your *life* suck.
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Anonymous Cowards, 22 Jun 2011 @ 3:04pm

A Reasonable Request
If we just promise to grope each other, do you think ICE would leave us alone? We're much better at it anyhow.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2011 @ 3:09pm

Re: Re: 4th Amendment and Travel
I suspect they were only using radiation detectors and dogs.

I suspect you're an apologist of some sort.

It would be problematic for them to even question the driver or passengers in light of the fact that anti-drunk checkpoints have to be announced in advance and that the driver has to be able to avoid the checkpoint after seeing it (or is that only California?).

Maybe it would be better to refrain from making uninformed comments, then.

At any rate, what happens if you refuse a search or questioning? Do they force you to turn around and drive back to wherever you got your bomb?

Because we all know that anyone who doesn't want to be irradiated or groped must have a bomb, huh? "If you have nothing to hide, then you ave nothing to fear"?

It's like saying, at an airport when you refuse a search, that you can't travel to NY but you can go to Seattle.

Not if you're *flying* to Seattle, unless, of course, you happen to be wealthy enough to charter a private plane or even own your own. Then you can do whatever you want. (Can't pull this crap on them, they've got the money to get somebody fired!)
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2011 @ 3:18pm

Re: Re: Those who choose safety over liberty . . .
A search at the border�s functional equivalent is constitutionally valid when:
(1) a reasonable certainty exists that the person or thing crossed the border;
(2) a reasonable certainty exists that there was no change in the object of the search since it crossed the border; and
(3) the search was conducted as soon as practicable after the border crossing.

I don't know where you got that, since you conveniently failed to cite the source, but that's not the way it works. Plenty of people, myself included, have been stopped by government agents even though they didn't cross the border.

As with the TSA at airports you can always decline to be searched but with the penalty of not being able to ride the train, bus, subway, or trolley.

Or use the highways (you conveniently left that part out). You should not be subject to penalty for exercising your rights.

If I had brought my bomb with me I would just come back when the VIPR checkpoint is no longer there.

Because only people with bombs would object, eh? What a crock.
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aldestrawk (profile), 22 Jun 2011 @ 9:14pm

Re: Re: Re: Those who choose safety over liberty . . .
The Congressional Research Service
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL31826.pdf

I have a comment further down about the highways and passenger cars. I didn't include it because I don't think the cars or people in them were physically searched. If I am mistaken, and it is a guess as the news link about it does not have much information, then a lawsuit should be brought to stop the practice.

My point about the bomb was not about the degradation of 4th amendment rights. Rather, it was about how ineffective random but very visible searches would be to stop terrorist attacks.
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aldestrawk (profile), 22 Jun 2011 @ 9:50pm

Re: Re: Re: Those who choose safety over liberty . . .
Being stopped is not the same as being searched. Were you stopped while driving? What agency? Was it a discretionless stop (i.e. was everyone being stopped at a checkpoint)? What types of questions were asked? Did they search you or the car without asking permission?
There are some exceptions apart from the border search exception but without probable cause these are very restrictive.
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Frost, 23 Jun 2011 @ 12:56am

I actually do have a problem with "fighting terrorism"
Let's just take a brief moment to juxtapose the damage done by terrorism vs what is done by the putative "fighting of terrorism".

The latter has killed a myriad Iraqis, countless Afghanis, created thousands of extra fantatics who didn't start out hating America but certainly do now after a drone blew up their house, their kids and their wife, has shredded the US constitution, is hastening the march of fascism in the USA and the world, causes incredible delays and costs related to anything to do with travel, especially by air, and is furthermore used as an excuse for every egregious violation of human rights in the USA and world-wide.

Terrorism itself has killed a few thousand people over the years and the chance of anyone dying of a terrorist attack is massively lower than the risk of dying by slipping in the tub at home!

Let's stop for just one short second and contemplate which is worse here, the disease or the putative cure?

Of course we should have police, and that police should be extremely heavily monitored to make sure they don't overstep their authority. If that hampers their efficiency somewhat then that's the way it has to be. This TSA BS? This is just unacceptable and outrageous.
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bob, 23 Jun 2011 @ 3:53pm

SO
So the terrorists have taken over the TSA now and are terrorizing the citizens.
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mundens, 24 Jun 2011 @ 9:38pm

VIPR == Terrorist attack squad
The silly thing is that the more the US government's agencies do this sort of thing, the easier it is for terrorists to operate.

Now, all the terrorists have to do is dress up as a TSA VIPR team and they'll be able to carry out whatever terrorist action they like!

Hey wait a minute, are you sure those VIPR teams are _actually_ sent out by the TSA? Maybe Al Quaeda is doing it as part of a recruiting drive?

Next time anyone sees a VIPR team, I suggest calling the FBI and reporting the potential terrorist recruiting cell operation you're witnesssing!
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Mutantone (profile), 31 Oct 2011 @ 9:30pm

�His name had been floated for the federal job earlier this year and was warmly received by unions and airport screeners, who say Southers will embrace collective bargaining for screeners.
Now "the question of bargaining rights at TSA is not a matter of 'if' but 'when,' " said John Gage, president of the American Federation of Government Employees, in a statement applauding the choice. "We are confident that the appointment of Mr. Southers as administrator will help put that matter to bed."
It really does not matter one bit that he has any skills in keeping us safe It was an appeasement appointment for the unions to gain more power and funding. The real threat is not the terrorist that he is suppose to be stopping but the growing expansion of the Unions in that protective cover that we all have to depend upon for our safety.
It is as plain as day the reason for his appointment has nothing to do with Airport security but everything to do with Union job security
And now they are demanding new powers that will allow them to close off a state from another over an Union dispute which the Supreme court has The Freedom from Union Violence Act of 1997[1] and 2007[2] were identical bills proposed in the United States Congress. Their intended purpose was to amend the Hobbs Act and make violence committed in pursuit of labor union goals a federal crime. They would impose a fine of up to $100,000, 20 years imprisonment, or both, on labor unions that commit or threaten to use violence, extortion, or the obstruction of commerce in the furtherance of labor union goals and objectives.
�The bills faced strong opposition from labor unions and others, especially for the clause that would disallow "obstruction of commerce," and failed to pass into law both times. Opponents noted that violence and extortion were already crimes, and argued that there was no need to pass a special law setting aside union violence and union extortion as being especially heinous.�
But now on a silver platter they want to destroy the Constitution
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