Why PROTECT IP Will Fail: Cultural Acceptance, Not Fear Of Punishment, Makes People Abide By Laws

from the you're-doing-it-wrong dept

Mon, Jul 11th 2011 10:02am — Mike Masnick

Lawyer Ron Coleman has a post about the PROTECT IP Act, called "We're all infringers now," that's worth reading. While it covers similar ground to what we've said before, there's one line in there, towards the end, that is absolutely worth highlighting and repeating:

This new proposed law is a terrible way to try to solve [infringement]. Its passage would only drive the culture further yet from any respect for the rule of law as it applies to intellectual property. But if Big IP hasn�t figured out yet that it is cultural acceptance of legal norms, not fear of punishment, that makes a free society a law-abiding one -- if Big IP doesn�t understand what the de facto attitude of consumers regarding copyright has already become, and where it is already going -- then heck, maybe at this point the law professors and the rest of us should just let Congress already go ahead and give them enough rope.

This is the key point that many of us have been trying to drive home for years. It's the same key point that the SSRC report made in pointing out that "enforcement" and "education" are simply not strategies that work. And that wasn't based on theory. It was based on years and years of detailed research. And yet, to the industry and to the government there seems to be only one single tool in the box for dealing with the challenges of infringement: to scare people. But that only works if people are stupid. And we now have plenty of experience in recognizing that people don't culturally accept the claims of the industry on this issue, and no amount of threats and punishment are likely to change that.

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Filed Under: cultural acceptance, laws, protect ip, punishment

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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:09am

One word: Prohibition
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:18am

It's worked so well for the "war on drugs". Drug use has pretty much disappeared thanks to three strikes, long prison sentences and heavy fines.
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sehlat (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:23am

Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
But that seems to be the one the MAFIAA and most book publishers seem to subscribe to.

Turn internet providers into their "copyright gestapo," use Homeland Security as armed muscle, and *of course* the people whose eyeballs they're stomping on will come flocking to them, waving money.
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Anonymous Poster, 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:27am

Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
Only because the MAFIAA removed all other choices from the table.
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:Lobo Santo (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:32am

Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
Oh, they'll be waving something alright... but it won't be money. More like torches, pitch-forks, AK-47s.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:37am

Freedom
it is cultural acceptance of legal norms, not fear of punishment, that makes a free society a law-abiding one

Notice that he said "a free society". That's why they're working to take freedoms away. Then strong-arming, fear and force are much more effective.

The RIAA and MPAA are two of the biggest threats to American freedom today.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:41am

Cultural Acceptance is right.

It will be a carbon copy of the War On Drugs.

Unreasonable harsh punishments, Institutional deafness to what "The people" think, etc...

2.7 Trillion in profits from the drug war, for the private prison industry, civil forfetures, ...

The new War On Piracy promisses smiliar profits for many more.

Time for me to see how I can make my money in all this...
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Donnicton, 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:49am

Re: Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
You know, until I got to the end of the sentence...

No, nothing, nevermind..
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MrWilson, 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:51am

This is one of those situations where the copyright maximalist's position will change based on what they're trying to argue for.

One day they'll say, "everyone is infringing our copyrights; we need stronger laws and enforcement!"

But if everyone is infringing, then it's obviously socially acceptable and since the government is supposed to represent the will of the people, it should be the government's responsibility to legalize what is already accepted.

In response to such an argument, the copyright maximalist will argue that "it's just a few bad apples," or something like that. But if it's only a few people, why are we wasting time and money and punishing the rest of the people with harsher, more restrictive laws because of a few people?

Non-commercial copyright infringement is not only the norm for a lot of people, it's technically unavoidable according to the way the copyright maximalists depict it (which is more severe than the law actually states). They've said on various occasions that personal copies and back-ups are illegal (because they argue that since they say it isn't allowed, it is unauthorized and thus illegal, even if that's not how the law works). But more so, lots of artists leak or distribute their material unofficially even though official permission is not given, so even this leads to what the copyright maximalist considers infringement.

It just makes sense to decriminalize it, like marijuana. Not because its good or bad, but because it does more harm to society to waste money and effort trying to fight reality.

If everyone in the state department is a communist, is it really that bad that we have communists in the state department?
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Ninja (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:52am

Obvious things are.. not that obvious.
O rly? It's obvious to any sane and intelligent man/woman. Sanity and intelligence seem to be in some sort of heavy shortage in politics and industry in general.

Some things don't even need a law to govern them. Would you srsly kill some1 if it wasn't a crime today? I wouldn't. Laws are only useful when the majority of the ppl agree with them.
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Ninja (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:53am

Obvious things are.. not that obvious.
O rly? It's obvious to any sane and intelligent man/woman. Sanity and intelligence seem to be in some sort of heavy shortage in politics and industry in general.

Some things don't even need a law to govern them. Would you srsly kill some1 if it wasn't a crime today? I wouldn't. Laws are only useful when the majority of the ppl agree with them.
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mike allen (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:54am

The artical is perfectly correct if people reject a law it becomes unenforcable. Governments should realise that they cant stop piracy this way. The Mafsaas should realise that the only way forward is to embrace it and change business modles.
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Ur mom, 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:56am

Have you checked out the website they launched with the announce of the new five strikes plan? Checkout the "facts" it's unbelievable
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2011 @ 11:03am

It's the same key point that the SSRC report made in pointing out that "enforcement" and "education" are simply not strategies that work.

I don't now about that. Consider anti-littering campaign (please, please don't be a litterbug), Smokey The Bear (only you can prevent forest fires) Anti-drunk driving campaigns, anti-smoking campaigns, seat belt campaigns, etc. I didn't bother reading the SSRC report but am aware that the above campaigns combined education and enforcement and achieved something of a desired effect. Piracy may be a tougher nut due to it involving financial gain for the people involved but I don't agree that it's futile.
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Hephaestus (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 11:08am

Re:
URL please
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2011 @ 11:11am

Re:
link please
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2011 @ 11:11am

Re: Re: Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
Yeah, I was thinking about the penis waving as well. I want to know where I can line up to wave mine at the record and movie execs.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2011 @ 11:22am

Re:
Enforcement and Education worked in those cases because there was a moral backing to it. You are causing unnecessary harm to people, the environment, etc.

Piracy doesn't hurt any entity that people really cares about. How is content creation going to stop when people want it? Are content creators suddenly going to... stop creating? Are they really not going to throw their hands up in the air and go "Welp... I can't write software or music anymore because all digitally recorded content created by me is freely distributed everywhere. Might as well become a plumber!"
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Anon, 11 Jul 2011 @ 11:22am

Re:
See and that's where it doesn't make sense when you compare it to those other things:
Litter prevention - benefits the public
Preventing forest fires - benefits the public/safety education
Anti-drunk driving campaigns - benefits the public/health education
Anti-smoking campaigns - health education
Sealt Belt campaigns - safety education

where as:
Anti-piracy "education" - aims to benefit a business model

It doesn't belong in the same category as the other campaigns you mentioned. That's why it doesn't work. Everyone sees through its "educational" guise for what it really is.
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nasch (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 11:30am

Trolling Association of America
Just you wait, the Wild West phase of the internet is coming to an end. And you freeloaders are not going to like the changes, because you'll have nowhere to hide your illegal activities.

I tried to combine tired rhetoric with a complete failure to address the article; hope I did it right.
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gorehound (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 11:37am

Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
Anything that comes out MAFIAA I have for years never purchased new.I just wait a bit and buy it used and physical adding onto my library of books,films,and music.

As far as digital drm files go you will never find opne on my drives.i will never ever buy anything that i do not own and is physical.

if all physical products go away before i die (i am 55) then i will download anything i want to.

FUCK OFF MAFIAA !!!!
you needed money so go and sue another grandma
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out_of_the_blue, 11 Jul 2011 @ 11:38am

Gov't regards "laws" as specifically TO make people into criminals!
You can't rule free people. So every gov't keeps increasing the number of laws until IS a criminal, then the population is controlled.

So this lawyer has a totally wrong premise about gov't and CAN'T understand the purpose of these new statutes.
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chris (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 11:44am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
Yeah, I was thinking about the penis waving as well. I want to know where I can line up to wave mine at the record and movie execs.

i do a fair amount of waving here: http://thepiratebay.org
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Gwiz (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 11:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
Yeah, I was thinking about the penis waving as well. I want to know where I can line up to wave mine at the record and movie execs.

That would be funny. A couple of thousand people on a hill like the scene from Braveheart.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2011 @ 12:00pm

Re: Re:
It doesn't belong in the same category as the other campaigns you mentioned. That's why it doesn't work. Everyone sees through its "educational" guise for what it really is.

That's why they try to link it to other things, like terrorism and child pornography. And law enforcement goes right along with it because it gets them more money too.
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HothMonster, 11 Jul 2011 @ 12:11pm

Re: Trolling Association of America
not a bad start, now respond to this by calling me stupid and than attacking some regular poster at random. Then restate your disconnected opinion and challenge someone to disprove it.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2011 @ 12:24pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
"Yeah, I was thinking about the penis waving as well. I want to know where I can line up to wave mine at the record and movie execs."

MPAA
1600 Eye St., NW
Washington, D.C. 20006

Beware the DC laws against insufficient exposure.
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sehlat (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 12:34pm

Re: Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
I don't purchase movies anymore, either, whether as VOD or DVDs [cough]Netflix DVD[/cough].

I am all "ebook all the time." However, since the publishers went to war with Amazon and burned Fictionwise almost to the ground, I'm buying a LOT fewer eBooks, with Baen being my sole remaining "buy 'em by the bunch" resource.
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HothMonster, 11 Jul 2011 @ 12:38pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
Hmmm, whipping mine out there would get me arrested but,
I'm thinking of a swimming noodle and some kind of photo-realistic sleeve that covers it so...well I think you get it.
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sehlat (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 12:39pm

Re: Gov't regards "laws" as specifically TO make people into criminals!
They've already succeeded. It's been pointed out that in the modern era, you can't go through a typical day's activities without committing several felonies. If "they" want to come after you, they just pick one from Column A or one from Column B and voila!
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known coward, 11 Jul 2011 @ 12:55pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
If it were a group thing, couldnt it be considered free speech?

think of it 1000 people outside the headquaters of the MPAA simultanioulsy pulling their pants down and waving their private parts at the MPAA. Saying

"We wave our private parts at you, you silly english Kniggits"

and let monty python sue us all.
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Chris Rhodes (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 1:33pm

Re: Gov't regards "laws" as specifically TO make people into criminals!
This is the most lucid thought I've ever seen you post. I concur. ;)
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Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 1:39pm

Re: Trolling Association of America
You forgot a "the party is over" comment, but otherwise were spot on.
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Jordan (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 2:57pm

Re:
Don't forget all the congress people going into treatment rather than jail when they get caught.
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Marcel de Jong (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 3:33pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Making People Hate You Is A Lousy Business Model
Would that also be a copyright infringement? :)
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Nicedoggy, 11 Jul 2011 @ 6:50pm

Re:
http://www.copyrightinformation.org/

Quote:
FACTS:
Content Theft Costs America:

* More than 373,000 Jobs
* Some $16 Billion in Lost Wages
* $2.6 Billion in Lost Taxes

LoL
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Nicedoggy, 11 Jul 2011 @ 6:52pm

Re:
http://www.copyrightinformation.org/facts

There are more "facts" in there OMG.
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Nicedoggy, 11 Jul 2011 @ 6:55pm

Re: Re:
Another fact they lost it:

Litigation against consumers cost the industry 20 billion dollars.
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Nicedoggy, 11 Jul 2011 @ 7:29pm

Comments from other places:

Quote:
meluvcookies 07/09/2011 3:25 AM

This should, sadly, surprise no one. In all honesty, I'm surprised that it didn't happen sooner.

I have a feeling I'm going to find myself doing the same things I did ~20 years ago (networking with local individuals for share parties. Then it was music, now, I suppose, it will be everything else.

P.S. I am sad that the federal government is so blatantly beholden to deep pockets. Wouldn't it be nice if things worked more like democracy and less like a plutocracy?

Source:http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Comcast-Verizon-throttle-six-strikes-Obama,news-11 799.html

Quote:
Gene Vincent
Jul 7, 2011 - 7:04 PM

AFAIC my Internet connection is like my phone. It's nobody's business what I do. If I'm doing something wrong "get a court order" and wiretap me and make an arrest. How is the Internet any different than my phone? Does Verizon check what people are doing on the phone? No way, it's against the law to listen in. To me this is a no brainer. How does an ISP have any right to check what I do? That's up to the law. Bandwidth checking? Fine. Anything else is BS. AFAIC.

Source:http://www.betanews.com/article/Major-ISPs-strike-deal-with-music-movie-industry-ov er-copyright/1310063788

Quote:
excalpius - 6 hours ago

They don't have to...

Comcast IS NBC/Universal now
Time Warner BROTHERS Roadrunner
etc.

There is an inherent conflict of interest between the content creators and content distributors now.

Source:http://www.neowin.net/news/why-do-isps-now-support-six-strikes-plan

Apparently in every other forum out there people are united in one voice about this issue.

It is not welcome.
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Chargone (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 7:30pm

Re: Obvious things are.. not that obvious.
most people wouldn't in the normal course of events, but some would, and then some who wouldn't otherwise would in revenge/retaliation/perfectly reasonable 'prevent it from happening again' logic...

which leads to people who had close ties to the origional murderer following the same logic... and few are rational enough to keep it to only the person responsible (which most people would Probably accept, if grudingly, if there was evidence. not all, but most) but usually go after a whole bunch of people they see as having some connection to it...

and you end up with feuds, which can rapidly escalate into wars ...

so... basically, without an over all law on the subject, you'd end up with the same basic law coming into effect either officially or sort of just by general consensus anywhere you had a tightly bound group with decent leadership... and an utter mess everywhere else.

and then you've got the issue that corporations are STILL large entities with a lot of money. without legal constraints preventing it you'd quite rapidly end up with a lot of their hostile takeover type manoeuvres being a lot more... hostile.

bullets are faster after all. and who's going to object to you dumpting waste in any meaningful way when you control your own armed forces and the surrounding area? maybe someone down stream could organise a large enough force and fight a War over it...

that said, any law that does not have general cultural acceptance is going to be ignored and thus completely pointless, it's true. the problem is that that cultural acceptance, or it's lack, Can be a fairly local phenomenon. ugh. my explaination's getting tangled. hopefully someone better at explaining gets my point.
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Ed C., 11 Jul 2011 @ 9:06pm

Re:
You more or less had it until the last line. Along the same lines, you could just as well say that "if everyone in Congress is a corporate sellout, is it really that bad that we have corporate sellouts in the Congress?" Historically, you could just as well insert slavery, genocide, or any other deplorable act that was considered "commonly acceptable".
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techflaws.org (profile), 11 Jul 2011 @ 10:31pm

Re:
Piracy may be a tougher nut due to it involving financial gain for the people involved

Whose financial gain?
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nasch (profile), 12 Jul 2011 @ 9:01am

Re: Re: Trolling Association of America
Dang, I had a feeling I was forgetting something!
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nasch (profile), 12 Jul 2011 @ 9:04am

Re: Re: Trolling Association of America
OK, let's see...

HothMonster, like that big white thing in Star Wars? As in a big lumbering stupid beast? Makes sense. You probably smell like it too. I'm sick and tired of you and Marcus Carab apologizing for thieves. The sheriff is coming to town, and you'll have nowhere to run.

The party's over.

----------------------

My capitalization is probably too good, but otherwise I think it's coming along nicely! Did you like my mixed metaphor?
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nasch (profile), 12 Jul 2011 @ 9:20am

Re: Re:
Did you just compare copyright infringement to slavery and genocide?
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Bengie, 12 Jul 2011 @ 10:53am

Re: Re:
An Limewire caused 90 trillion in damages. RIAA said so.
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MrWilson, 12 Jul 2011 @ 1:24pm

Re: Re:
Your analogy doesn't work. My analogy was that the scare tactic and catchwords that these people are using regarding copyright infringement is comparable to the scare tactics of McCarthy.

No one is scaremongering about Congressional corruption. We know that a lot of our elected officials are corrupt.
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Ed C., 13 Jul 2011 @ 12:02am

Re: Re: Re:
WTF? I didn't mention copyright, or make even the faintest reference to copyright, and yet you came to the conclusion I was making a statement about copyright?
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Ed C., 13 Jul 2011 @ 12:14am

Re: Re: Re:
No, I clearly did not say anyone was "scaremongering about Congressional corruption". If you perhaps tried to READ what I said, you would have noticed that I was merely pointing out that your LAST LINE, as written, was a horrible argument that doesn't support anything.
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nasch (profile), 13 Jul 2011 @ 9:19am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
MrWilson argued that copyright infringement should be legalized because it's so widely accepted. You pointed out that slavery and genocide have been widely accepted too. So if you weren't talking about copyright, what were you talking about?
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