Feds Raid Gibson; Musicians Now Worried The Gov't Will Take Their Guitars Away
from the norwegian-wood dept
Last week, the feds apparently raided the premises of Gibson Guitar, searching for "illegal wood" used in those guitars. Apparently, the government and Gibson have been involved in an ongoing lawsuit for some time, after the feds seized some guitars in 2009 and a case commenced against the wood in the guitar (yes, against the wood, since it was one of those "in rem" cases): "United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms." Apparently, now the government is taking it up a notch, and while there is a grandfather clause, if you get your paperwork just marginally wrong and happen to own a Gibson guitar with illegal wood, the government could seize it and fine you. Apparently, a bunch of musicians are reasonably afraid, and some suggest not taking any such guitar out of the country if you ever plan on bringing it back:John Thomas, a law professor at Quinnipiac University and a blues and ragtime guitarist, says "there's a lot of anxiety, and it's well justified." Once upon a time, he would have taken one of his vintage guitars on his travels. Now, "I don't go out of the country with a wooden guitar."And since this is a "strict liability" situation, asking the government for help in making sure you're being legal may actually make things worse. Much worse:
[....]
It's not enough to know that the body of your old guitar is made of spruce and maple: What's the bridge made of? If it's ebony, do you have the paperwork to show when and where that wood was harvested and when and where it was made into a bridge? Is the nut holding the strings at the guitar's headstock bone, or could it be ivory? "Even if you have no knowledge�despite Herculean efforts to obtain it�that some piece of your guitar, no matter how small, was obtained illegally, you lose your guitar forever," Prof. Thomas has written. "Oh, and you'll be fined $250 for that false (or missing) information in your Lacey Act Import Declaration."
Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique B�sendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork�which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.I'm all for not destroying the environment -- and if Gibson is really doing something bad, then that should be dealt with. But some of these other situations just seem flat out ridiculous. Don't the feds have more important things to do?
There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.
Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.
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Clearly not
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Re: Clearly not
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Re: Clearly not
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If they don't enforce, the political attacks would be ferocious from those with money and IP rights.
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Oh yeah baby seize all those guitars from those artists :)
If they are buying illegal wood they are criminals.
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Aug 29th, 2011 @ 3:32am
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I hope they also start seizing movies original copies from studios that do illegal business in other countries.
No matter where you are or what you do if the US government knows about it they can do anything they want including taking all your movies and making a profit from it after.
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So, the US government is now the business of protecting the jobs in India while hurting the jobs in America?
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The wood isn't the only thing endangered
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Why Do We Have �Strict Liability� Laws?
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I have no idea if such an exercise could be useful here, but perhaps someone with the applicable background can help?
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I mean, it's not like you could hear the difference, and it's not as though wood were a renewable resource like plastic.
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Just another attempt..
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resource protection
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Re: resource protection
They have bent over backwards to follow the law and now, without a change in the law.
As a person that has multiple stringed instruments ranging from 5 to 45 years old I have no slightest idea how old the components of my instruments are.
Is the nut of that 45 year old guitar bone or ivory? I don't know. I have no way of knowing. I bought the instrument 20 years ago in a pawn shop. It's my main guitar but I can't carry it out of the country, if I ever needed to travel with the laws in the current state.
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"Need some wood?"
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Ridiculous
They don't have problems witb anything else that their chinese 'masters' make...
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Re: Ridiculous
Dog food
Children's toys
...
I know these were mostly consumer pursued, but regulatory authorities based in big brother did step in.
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Dear artists, how does it feel?
Did you see I wrote "longer" and not "long"? Every day, artists sit back and do nothing over the laws which are formed regarding their rights. Now, when another law now targets them, they now stand up and speak their mind?
Do these artists not see the hypocrisy with this? Where's Nina and her new strip? Where are the editorials about the rights of wood? Where are the ACs posts regarding why this law is beneficial to the environment?
None of it can be found. Instead, we get stories of people "worried" they'll lose their musical instrument because a piece of legislation now gives law enforcement this right.
Poetic justice or karma. Take your pick. I feel bad for those who genuinely have this fear, but realize this is the world I live in, when one day, a subpoena may grace my front door because someone believes I'm infringing the works created from those guitars, whether they be in mp3 format or the background music of the latest movie.
Benjamin Franklin was absolutely right, wasn't he, when discussing security for liberties.
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Re: Dear artists, how does it feel?
Laws do not give the government or its agencies "rights" - it only grants them powers.
Rights are held either by individuals or states. Neither the federal government, nor states, no matter what powers they are granted, can violate those rights. Powers can be taken away by other laws, or by the courts if they are impeding the rights of the states or individuals.
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The "Debbie Gibbson Gitar Group" attack Paper jamz You-tuber with 'Copywight' lawyers. Paper Jamer counterattacks with enviro Feds against DGGG for illegal wood in gitars. Unfortunately PJYT destroyed because of illegal wood in copy of gitar and Beatles song used in YouTube video.
(Libertarian groups strangely do not add or subtract from this)
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Under arrest...
"Under what charges, Officer?"
"For rocking too hard."
*Cue Bill and Ted air guitar*
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And you should be second guessing those initiatives. While you protect some hardwoods in a foreign land, up here in Canada, Alberta is being scarred by oil sands development.
How much environmental damage has been done in China to mass produce cheap goods available at your local Walmart or Target?
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Wal Mart: The High Cost Of Low Price
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Leave it to us to find a way to prosecute 20% of the economic output of the island of Catan.
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a silly question
How does this "paperwork" work? If I have papers that show that the ebony bridge of my guitar is legal, what happens when I have the bridge replaced by an unethical luthier in Lithuania? Does the certificate crumble into ashes? Is there a serial number etched into the legitimate bridge, perhaps with a cryptographic hash of the grain pattern?
Is it really necessary that the papers be, well, papers? If Gibson keeps its supply chain in order, couldn't it provide downloadable compliance certificates, by serial number? Or maybe by model and year?
And is it really necessary that the papers describe where and when the wood was harvested and carved into a bridge? Wouldn't it be enough to say that it's legal? The only purpose I can see for maintaining all of that information is to allow previously allowed instruments to be made "illegally manufactured" with the stroke of a pen, which sounds to me like retroactive law ("ex post facto"), which is unconstitutional. It also serves the purpose of making the law harder to comply with, but I usually attribute that to incompetence rather than malice.
(P.S. Sorry, I don't often get to use the word "luthier", and I got a little carried away.)
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It was another lobbying effort
So, as we see, if you contribute to the right politicians, whether you want to call it campaign contributions or lobbying (it's all bribery), you can then use the US Government as your own personal police force to go after your competitors.
The US Government, they are for sale.
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Re: It was another lobbying effort
http://bejohngalt.com/2011/08/gibson-guitar-prosecution-selective-justice/
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Re: It was another lobbying effort
That is something that can be remedied quite easily. I find it difficult to believe they would be that stupid.
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In this current fascist police state they are running - no, they do not.
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Grandstanding is important!
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And the government wonders why no one likes or trusts them
Federal Government: "His paperwork isn't filled out right? QUICK, DESTROY HIM WHILE HE'S STILL VULNERABLE!"
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Who knew?
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Stradivarius
I wonder if their owners can show the correct documents.
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Look out, here come the gestapo
Your house is made out of illegal materials. The government is going to sieze it. Your clothes are made out of illegal materials. Kiss those goodbye. The key here is EX POST FACTO.
Making something illegal after the fact is in itself illegal. The criminals are the government, not some guy who happens to own a 1960's vintage Les Paul. Anyone who will argue that the Les Paul owner is a criminal is an ignorant Facist. You are the new Nazi's. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. You are being led by vicious people who are using you to their own end. The shame you will bring upon yourselves will last generations. Also, the evil people leading you will cast you aside when the time is right. You are simply their tools. You are all going to be labeled criminals of the worst kind. Wake up before it is too late.
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Look both ways before crossing the street...
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Gibson Raid
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*rimshot*
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Burden of Proof
I don't see that standard here.
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Ebony And Ivory ...
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In Fact this is what the Feds do for a living, everyone is guilty of one federal crime or another, from the baby to grandma.
This is the reason that the founding fathers originally made the federal government weak. With the states having the power to police it's borders and people.
Wickard v. Filburn and Garcia v. San Antonio Metropolitan Transit Authority both have been used to destroy state power and increase the power of the federal government.
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Apparently Mrs. Obama gave Carla Bruni a Gibson guitar as a gift in 2009. And it features the felonious wood.
http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/Michelle-Obama-French-406/
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papers?
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Obama wood
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Government vs; Gibson Guitar
to have successfully reversed the U.S. Constitution's intention, which was to protect its citizens from an out-of-control, over-reaching government, perhaps it is time to re-visit the Declaration pf Independence and start over.
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