BART Bosses Say Phone Shutoff Will Only Be Used In 'Extreme Situations' Going Forward

from the learning-their-lesson? dept

Mon, Aug 29th 2011 12:28pm — Mike Masnick

When BART first announced that it had shut off mobile phone service in a station to stop protesters, it was seen as a brief aside by the transit operation. The news reports covering the story buried that part of the story as not very important. Then people began to realize it was a huge deal and perhaps a violation of telecom law and the First Amendment, and quite an uproar ensued. Not surprisingly, the folks at BART are now realizing that perhaps they were a bit hasty. BART held an emergency board meeting solely on this issue and announced that BART will only use such measures "in an extreme case where the public is imminently at risk." Of course, what constitutes such an "extreme case" is not entirely clear. But, at the very least, I would imagine that BART bosses will think about the consequences a bit more next time.

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Filed Under: bart, free speech, mobile phones, protests, wireless

55 Comments

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Ninja (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 12:39pm

With terms as broad and vague as this, I wouldn't be surprised if they shut it down because of lack of doughnuts.
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jsl4980 (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 12:42pm

If there's ever immediate danger I sure hope the cell phone networks work so you can call 911... What if there had been an accident or injury after they chose to shut off the cell service? It seems like shutting of cell service puts people at a greater safety risk than a bunch of protesters marching around.
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Mark, 29 Aug 2011 @ 12:48pm

Re:
Not really.

There are officers working in the BART system, I would assume. If there were an accident or someone were injured, it's likely one of them would be able to assist. Cell phones are a necessity in order to get help - society did fine without them up until the late 90'/early 2000's when their popularity really shot up.
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Mark, 29 Aug 2011 @ 12:49pm

Correction
*Cell phones are NOT a necessity
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Ninja (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 12:56pm

Re: Re:
Back to the caves then. I can't think of anything that is a necessity based on your logic.

A few hundred thousand years ago we did fine without fire and tools made of stone before their popularity shot up. Just my 2 pebbles... I mean, cents.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 12:57pm

Re: Re:
"society did fine without them up until the late 90'/early 2000's when their popularity really shot up."

Society did fine without fire at one time I'm sure, but now we're better off with it.

Society did fine without modern hospitals and medical advancements, but now we're better off with them.
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Ima Fish (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 12:58pm

That's great, because well all know the full text of the First Amendment reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances, except in times of extreme situations, dude!
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 12:58pm

Re: Re: Re:
(that is, without the ability to make our own artificial fire, if you believe in this evolution nonsense and if you believe that humans at one time were unable to do so).
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:10pm

Test Run
I wonder if Today's Protest will be an extreme situation?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:11pm

Re: Test Run
Link
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Berenerd (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:16pm

Re:
OH NO THE BUILDING IS GONNA COLLAPSE ON THE HEADS OF THOSE PEOPLE!! SHUT OFF THE PHONES SO THEY CAN'T CALL FOR HELP!
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:20pm

Re: Re:
Stupid peasants, what do they need to communicate for anyway
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Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:23pm

Re: Re:
If terrorists were attempting to take out/control the BART system they would probably first simultaneously take out the officers before they got any comm out. Of course, they may just take out the repeaters...which are probably in the same room as the ones used by the police for their comm. So the best thing in a crisis is to limit the number of comm channels getting out? That makes sense.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:23pm

Re: Re: Test Run
can somebody tell us non-americans, why are people protesting and why there in the first place?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:26pm

A cell phone-detonated bomb planted in a train station could qualify as"an extreme case where the public is imminently at risk".

Then again, it could just be this week's episode of NCIS.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:26pm

Clarification
you mean the same police who shot homeless people and mistake their gun for their tazzers? EXACTLY who I want to help me in an emergency.

And society used to have pay phones, too. haven't seen one of those around in a LONG time. Cell phones are important to getting access to emergency services. and the FCC agrees, giving the same policies for interruption of service as landlines, and forcing localized 911 emergency service on cell carriers.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:27pm

Only problem is, they're going to outsource the team that determines when the public is "imminently at risk". To Madagascar.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:27pm

Routing around and repairing damage is the basic way life works. The network and those people who compose it will see these intentional attempts at damaging the infrastructure and react accordingly.

Also, I can't wait for when criminals take advantage of this to do something to some poor person; I hope that person sues the bloody sin out of BART so they learn the only way these things ever will. Direct obvious attacks to the bottom line and hopefully jail time for the morons involved (both the criminals attacking and the criminals denying service).
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Dark Helmet (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:32pm

Re: Re: Re: Test Run
Because baseball season is nearly over and protesting is our second nat'l pasttime. This is protesting spring training, which oddly enough takes place near the end of summer. We were going to hold protest spring training in spring, but Major League Baseball staged a protest over it.

Go figure....
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:33pm

Re: Re: Re: Test Run
People have been upset for a while at BART because of This and more recently because of another Shooting
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DCL, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:33pm

Re: Re: Re: Test Run
The are protesting that BART took down the BART (underground) Cell system to prevent protesting.

The initial protest was because in 2009 a BART officer shoot and killed a unarmed man.

Earlier this year a BART officer used what seems to be excessive force and shot an killed a person with a knife.

BART officers are perceived overly aggressive and don't have the best reputation in the Bay Area.
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DCL, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:34pm

Re:
Or the lack of doughnuts :)
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:34pm

I wonder why you bother keeping your constitution; there appears to be no penalty for acting against it (at least for government officials and their agents).

The worst that ever happens is a negative news article.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:39pm

So ridiculous. BART's about to get their asses handed to them and they still put out a statement saying they could shut if off in the future. Just because they know which circuit breaker to throw doesnt mean they can do it.
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Infowars, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:43pm

extreme case
You know.. "extreme case" like when someone is face down with their hands cuffed behind their backs.. Extreme case.. Shoot him in the back first, shut off all cell service second.. You know, extreme..
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DogBreath, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:45pm

Re: Re:
That is why all BART police vehicles and substations will be equipped with these special "emergency" kits, and to protect these emergency kits from hungry looters... I mean BART passengers, will mean hiring a new force.
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Atkray (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:47pm

Re:
Once again we need a "Thanks button"

Being a typical citizen of The United States of America I never actually bothered to read the First Amendment (TL;DR) so this was new information to me.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 1:58pm

Re: Re: Re: Test Run
oh okay, thank you for the replies guys. I've seen extensive coverage over this, but almost nobody has mentioned as to why. Only the protests and shutdown of cell towers seems to get news attention.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 2:07pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Test Run
Define the amount of people. I really didn't care and most others didn't either. Most people around here are sick and tired of the whinnign complaining trustafarians ruining other peoples lives. Or the fact criminals have more rights than tax paying citizens. Remove the BART police and let the commuters take care of the protesters. Then the protesters will cry and complain because no one was there to protect them.
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PlagueSD (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 2:10pm

Re: Re:
Well, yes and no. Society did fine without cellphones because pay phones were everywhere. Now that everyone has a cell phone, there's no use for pay phones now.

I assume there are still "Emergency phones" in the BART stations that you can get to in case there is an actual emergency. If cell phone service had to be shut off for any reason, I'm sure that place will be crawling with officers anyway...
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PlagueSD (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 2:12pm

Re: Re:
Yep. I stopped reading at "We the People"

/sarcasm
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Noah Callaway, 29 Aug 2011 @ 2:15pm

Cool. If BART agrees to only violate the law in extreme situations, then I agree to only violate the law in extreme situations.

That makes sense.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 2:19pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Test Run
"Define the amount of people. I really didn't care and most others didn't either."

You knew about somebody getting shot for vague reasons and you didn't care?
You're a drug dealer aren't you
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Ron Rezendes (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 2:22pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"artificial fire"? You mean like a decorative fireplace with a light bulb in it?

Every time I've ever made fire it was always the real kind that actually burns things.

Enlighten me on this "artificial fire" thing, please?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 2:35pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I should have said, allegedly before humans had the ability to artificially make fire. You knew what I meant though.
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John Fenderson (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 2:46pm

Re:
We keep it around to make it easier to fool ourselves into believing that we are a nation where everyone is treated equally and justly.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 3:11pm

Likewise, citizens will only shut down BART services in "extreme" circumstances.
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Hugh Mann (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 3:11pm

That sounds fine to me.
The pictures I saw of supposedly "peaceful" protests at BART stations included people clmibing on top of the trains, requiring multiple officers to drag them down.

I consider that a situation where BART can reasonably consider that the public is subject to imminent danger from an out-of-control crowd, and they should be able to take pre-emptive steps to keep that from happening.

The train platform is not a public gathering place like a mall or city square. It is a place for ticketed passengers to board and exit from trains. It doesn't take much rowdiness at all before someone gets hurt, perhaps fatally. There are other places in the train station to protest that do not interfere with service or cause risk to protesters or innocent bystanders.

I just plain don't have a problem with BART taking steps like shutting down their cell phone repeaters if they reasonably believe someone is planning a disruptive event for the platform itself.

HM
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 3:23pm

Re: Re:
Problem is, back in the 90's, you could find a payphone on every street corner. Not the case so much anymore.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 4:25pm

Thinking that BART has emergency phones somewhere doesn't help handle emergencies if you need that emergency phone and it is just "somewhere" when you need it. You know where you cell phone is.

Here we have an authority, violating the constitutional rights of it's citizens in an effort to maintain what they suspect may be a problem.

I can't help but think along the lines of BART is acting as a cell phone relayer, underground. While they are not providing you with the service, they are assisting in enabling it. In that sense they are part of the communications link, the same as the provider of the service is. While I am not sure on this there is probably a law other than freedom of speech, covering the willful termination of emergency services.

Being underground, means cell towers don't work there. The signal does not penetrate underground. This is why BART is running this service. Without it, cell phones don't work.

I too have a problem with BART judging it can act to shut off the service because someone "claimed" to plan to have a protest. Next when the terrorists want to strike, someone will call BART with information that there will be a protest, which in turn will shut off needed emergency calling when needed.
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monkyyy, 29 Aug 2011 @ 4:45pm

Re:
so they make it explode when it loses connection to the cell tower.........
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Aug 2011 @ 4:47pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Test Run
bored college kids bro
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monkyyy, 29 Aug 2011 @ 4:49pm

Re: That sounds fine to me.
"peaceful" doesnt mean non-disruptive, it means w/o hurting people; if it doesnt cause someone problems its not a protest, other wise it an angry facebook status
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Beta (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 6:37pm

falsely shouting "extreme case"
Clearly someone at BART has heard of O.W. Holmes's famous words in Schenck v. U.S. about "falsely shouting fire in a theater", speech that has no legitimate purpose and actually causes "clear and present danger". By taking this position they can retain the option to do the same kind of thing in the future, if criticized they can retreat to the well-established precedent about the narrow case and claim that that's what they meant all along, and best of all they don't have to admit that what they did was an unconstitutional violation of civil rights, only that they were being overcautious this time.
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Chris Rhodes (profile), 29 Aug 2011 @ 8:11pm

Re: Clarification
you mean the same police who shot homeless people and mistake their gun for their tazzers? EXACTLY who I want to help me in an emergency.

Well said. I imagine some New Orleans citizens have their own special view of the police after Katrina.
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Hugh Mann (profile), 30 Aug 2011 @ 12:09am

Re: Re: That sounds fine to me.
So much for "your right to swing your fist stops at the tip of my nose."

HM
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 30 Aug 2011 @ 1:15am

Re: That sounds fine to me.
"There are other places in the train station to protest that do not interfere with service or cause risk to protesters or innocent bystanders."

The free speech zones are outside of the fare gates, much like the designated protest zones we have for the president where no one might see anyone disagreeing with them.

The real serious problem that drove this to 11 was BART said X, that made Protesters feel it was needed to do Y. BART rolled out riot gear, Protesters turned up their games.

The situation fed on itself, each side reacting exactly how the other side needed them to behave to justify this spiraling into a cluster*ahem*

BART was amazed anyone would dare to challenge their authority, and the Protesters were less than amazed that the people they already considered jackbooted power hungry thugs acted like jackbooted power hungry thugs.

Had the protesters been greeted by the standard BART officer, not all rioted geared up, who said for your safety we have set aside this portion of the platform for your protest. Your visible and the area is safe your us, yourselves and the passengers. Your right to protest does not involve stopping the trains, and people who do so will be removed and arrested. Enjoy your protest.
The protesters would have been dumbfounded and there would have been much less overhype as a peaceful protest happened.
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btr1701 (profile), 30 Aug 2011 @ 2:14pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
> I should have said, allegedly before humans
> had the ability to artificially make fire.

Why is it that when a human makes fire the process becomes artificial? It results in genuine fire, does it not?

The fact that a person does it, instead of a random occurence like a lightning strike or a volcanic eruption, doesn't make it artificial. Purposeful, yes. Artificial, no.
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btr1701 (profile), 30 Aug 2011 @ 2:17pm

Re: Clarification
> you mean the same police who shot homeless
> people and mistake their gun for their
> tazzers? EXACTLY who I want to help me in
> an emergency

Actually, I bet it would be those same police that you'd want to help you, and you'd cry like a little girl if they didn't show up.

In my experience, the people that bitch the loudest about the cops are also the ones who expect the cops to be johnny-on-the-spot to help them whenever the need arises.

Oh, and it's Taser, not 'tazzer'.
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btr1701 (profile), 30 Aug 2011 @ 2:20pm

Re: Re: Clarification
> I imagine some New Orleans citizens have their
> own special view of the police after Katrina.

Yeah, the ones who had their guns forcibly taken away by the cops on orders from the mayor and governor, in violation of the 2nd and 4th Amendments.

However there's a whole other (quite large) segment of the population, which was set upon by hordes of urban thugs, who I'm sure would love to have had a strong police presence in their neighborhoods.
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btr1701 (profile), 30 Aug 2011 @ 2:24pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Test Run
> Earlier this year a BART officer used what
> seems to be excessive force and shot an
> killed a person with a knife.

He had a knife and was brandishing it. Nothing excessive about it.

Here's a thought: If you don't want to risk getting killed while attacking someone with a knife, don't attack people with knives. Otherwise, you assume the risks inherenet in attacking people with knives, one of which is getting shot by someone who has the sense to be better armed than you are.
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btr1701 (profile), 30 Aug 2011 @ 2:31pm

Re: Re: That sounds fine to me.
> The protesters would have been dumbfounded
> and there would have been much less overhype
> as a peaceful protest happened.

Baloney. Those protesters are there for one reason: to defy authority. That's their raison d'etre. There's nothing BART could have offered them that would have induced them to do anything other than what they were planning on doing, which was to disrupt the functioning of the station as much as they possibly could.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 30 Aug 2011 @ 3:44pm

Re: Re: Re: That sounds fine to me.
BART informed the public protesters were flying in to ambush them. They were making a manageable situation worse with rhetoric.

To defy authority... really?
So when some authority tells you to accept something stupid you just bend over and take it?

You might have not noticed that this entire country was founded on the idea of defying authority of a king, who was screwing over the people... because he had the authority to.

While disrupting the trains is a bad thing, you claim to know that every person who showed up intended to do such. How much did your crystal ball cost and where can I get one. To know what is in the hearts and minds of all people protesting an issue is an amazing super power. Maybe you can consult for TSA so you can tell which people in an airport actually are terrorists from your ability to read minds.

I enjoy this new idea sweeping the mindset that everyone who protests wants anarchy and riots to break out. To run out to rape, loot, and pillage.

Anyone else find it sad that to disagree with the "majority" in this country is now considered to always have a criminal element to it?
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btr1701 (profile), 30 Aug 2011 @ 8:55pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: That sounds fine to me.
> To defy authority... really?

Yes, really.

> So when some authority tells you to accept something
> stupid you just bend over and take it?

No, but I don't walk around breaking the rules just for the sake of being a contrarian who enjoys "fucking with the man", either. Most of the real assholes in these groups couldn't give a tin shit about the issue they're 'protesting'. They're there for one reason: to break things and piss people off. That's all they care about. The protest is just a convenient excuse to exercise their particular mental pathology.

They're the same kids who could never behave in school and were always getting kicked out of wherever they were because they refused to follow any rule, no matter how reasonable.

> You might have not noticed that this entire country was
> founded on the idea of defying authority of a king, who
> was screwing over the people... because he had the authority to.

It was not, however, founded on the idea of victimizing innocent people, which is exactly what these thugs were doing.

> While disrupting the trains is a bad thing

No kidding. How nice of you to acknowledge that.

> you claim to know that every person who showed up intended to do such

Where did I say anything about 'every person who showed up'? I only commented on the ones who were engaging in criminal activity. Not every person who showed up.

> Maybe you can consult for TSA so you can tell which people
> in an airport actually are terrorists from your ability to read minds.

Or maybe you can drop your zeal for sarcasm for a minute, take a deep breath, and actually read what I wrote. Of course that won't give you as much opportunity to be so witty and clever, but then again, you're not nearly as clever as you apparently think you are.

> I enjoy this new idea sweeping the mindset that everyone who
> protests wants anarchy and riots to break out.

And I love this continuing trend among some of the posters here who either fail to grasp basic syntax or purposely put words in other people's mouths so that they can set up, and then oh-so-valiantly knock down, a series of ridiculous strawmen.

> Anyone else find it sad that to disagree with the "majority"
> in this country is now considered to always have a criminal
> element to it?

I guess it must have escaped your keen eye, but there *was* a criminal element to this protest. No one had to assume anything, genius. They were right there, committing crimes for all to see.
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Chris Rhodes (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 12:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Clarification
who I'm sure would love to have had a strong police presence in their neighborhoods.

Or their guns, at the least. ;)

And don't forget about the police officers who murdered two men on a bridge, and then went on to later lie in their reports and fabricate evidence (with the help of the very guy that was supposedly "investigating" the shooting) to make it look like the shooting was justified.

The police are not your friends. Invoke them at your peril.
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