Does The Punishment Fit The Crime? Is Manslaughter An Equivalent Crime To Copyright Infringement?

from the manslaughter-is-about-the-same dept

Wed, Aug 31st 2011 9:19am — Mike Masnick

Via ZeroPaid, we learn of a fun article in the French publication Numerama, which tries to compare the length of time in jail one could get for file sharing in France to a few other crimes (Google translation from the original French). The results are telling, in terms of just how extreme current copyright laws really are. The article includes two lists. The first is of crimes that can get you about the same amount of time in jail. This list includes:

Manslaughter
Sending death threats
Doing biomedical experiments on a person without consent
Provoking someone to commit suicide.
Theft
Escaping prison
Forgery

Clearly, sharing a few songs in an unauthorized manner fits with that list. As for the list of crimes that will get you less punishment, there are some surprises:

Exposing yourself in public
Sexual harassment
Domestic violence
Identity fraud
Abandoning a family
Getting a minor drunk
Making sexual advances on someone less than 15 years old
Abuse and cruelty to animals
Destruction of property

Somehow, it's difficult to see how infringement belongs in that first list. But, that's what you get in this day and age.

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Filed Under: copyright, france, punishment

57 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:26am

Isn't it odd that theft and forgery are on that top list?

It would make you think, perhaps...
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fogbugzd (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:27am

The MPAA and RIAA think that more draconian penalties are the solution to their business model problems. It is just part of the fantasy world that they live in.
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E. Zachary Knight (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:27am

Re:
Copying is not theft.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:28am

You're right - it doesn't belong on that first list.

Copyright infringement should in fact be on the list of capital crimes, and anyone who disagrees is a freetard!
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Jay (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:34am

Re:
Well, forgery is because of the security placed on the dollar by central banks. We're supposed to be secure in our money that we borrow from the Feds for our high debt and...

Oh, wait...
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JaDe, 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:34am

Re:
Perhaps what? Perhaps what?

Oh no! I think AC's internet connection was cut halfway through his comment(probably HADOPI). Now we may never know what he perhaps thought.
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Jay (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:35am

Re:
Before anyone else replies, yes, I think this AC is indeed missing the /s mark.
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PaulT (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:41am

Re:
Think about what? That the people making the laws still have no concept of the difference between those terms, despite them being completely different concepts? That those people are passing some extremely bad laws at the behest of those who believe they stand to benefit financially, whatever the cost to society?

I suppose you're right, but it's not a positive thought...
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MrWilson, 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:43am

From the RIAA website:
"It�s commonly known as 'piracy,' but that�s too benign of a term to adequately describe the toll that music theft takes on the enormous cast of industry players working behind the scenes to bring music to your ears."

So hijacking, rape, murder, assault, etc. on the high seas is "too benign" a comparison to make with file-sharing?

Talk about a screwed up sense of ethics.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:44am

Re:
"It would make you think, perhaps..."

That the existence of those two independent crimes obviously proves that infringement is not theft, but a separate violation?

YES! You GOT IT! I'm so proud of you! I would pat you on your head right now if I could, but my priest tells me that would be cheating....
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Hephaestus (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:44am

Re:
"Copyright infringement should in fact be on the list of capital crimes, and anyone who disagrees is a freetard!"

I agree, we can then go after the guys at the newspapers for copyright theft for each image they have pilfered and have them executed. We can use DOJ to extradite the record label exec's in canada for their two decade long piracy spree of mbest of CD's. We can finally see and end to Lily Allen and her unauthorized mix tapes. We can go after politicians that use songs for their campains in an unauthorized way and put them to death.

I love double edged swords ... :)
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:47am

Re: Re:
Yup, you got it. It may no be specifically theft, but forgery isn't specifically theft either (it's obtaining something through falsehoods / misrespresentation, which is why it is a seperate crime). I am guessing that copyright infringement falls somewhere in there.

Now, that being said, just like there is petty theft, there could be petty infringement. Clearly, a kid stealing a piece of candy from the candy store doesn't get 20 years in prison.

It sort of makes you think that this post is a bit of a strawman, comparing "trading a couple of files" with grand theft.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 9:52am

Re: Re:
"YES! You GOT IT! I'm so proud of you! I would pat you on your head right now if I could, but my priest tells me that would be cheating...."

Careful now DH! you know what goes on inside that head!
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AJ, 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:03am

Oh No's!
"Doing biomedical experiments on a person without consent "

Damn.... I didn't realize this was against the law. I'm guess I'm going to need a new hobby.... sigh
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Jesse (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:06am

Making sexual advances on a child is less serious than copyright infringement. Nice priorities.
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Squirrel Brains (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:08am

Re: Re: Re:
Except for very exceptional cases, copyright infringement should be a civil matter and not a criminal one.
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The eejit (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:08am

Re: Re: Re:
But attempted statutory rape has less than copyright infringement...
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:08am

It depends ...
Mike, I think you are wrong here and that the punishment here does really fit the crime. It depends on a lot of factors, like what song you are sharing.

For example, if you share a song like "Let's talk about sex" from Salt&Pepper with a 14 year old then it would fall into the category "Making sexual advances on someone less than 15 years old"
But if you share any song from the Emo genre then you are "Provoking someone to commit suicide."

Then there is the method of sharing. Un-encrypted bit-torrent is "Exposing yourself in public" but transmitting data according to RFC-1149 could be seen as "Abuse and cruelty to animals"
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Atkray (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:12am

Re: Re: Re:
It isn't the post that makes the comparison it is you and your peers. See also Gene Simmons Et al.

The post is pointing out how ridiculous the comparison is.

It is promising that you see the difference between a kid stealing a piece of candy and armed bank robbery.

The fact that you acknowledge there could be "petty infringement" tells me that either there is hope for you to actually comprehend the nature of sharing or (unfortunately) more likely you see that backlash against IP is growing and are trying to establish a middle ground before you loose even what you now have.

I'll be an optimist and hope you are getting wiser.
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Atkray (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:14am

Re:
Am I going mad or did the word think just escape your lips?
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Ed Gray (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:26am

is it worse...
to copy a song or put someone in a cage for years?
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:30am

Re: is it worse...
Definitely worse to copy a song....

If you put someone in a cage for years, they are going to have almost nothing to do, chances are they might 'sing a song' while in their cage, and the middlemen could claim the copyright on that and put the next person who copies it in the cage next to them..

Am I doing this right? trolling can be difficult....
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:35am

Re: Oh No's!
But only in France, you can still work freely in Lithuania Dr.Frankenstein
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:38am

Re:
well how else do you expect media executives to have orgies with underage hookers?
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Ninja (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:47am

Re: It depends ...
LOL! So copyright infringement can be theft after all. If I steal a server containing copyrighted material it is theft after all. I think we should make it simpler and include all other crimes in copyright infringement. Sounds fair. And make it death penalty, our planet is overcrowded anyway so it's gonna be an environmentally friendly law while we are at it =)

Holy sweet Mary Jesus... I am kidding but I'm astonished to find myself thinking I wouldn't be surprised if some coypright moron agreed with me.
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Ninja (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:47am

Re: It depends ...
LOL! So copyright infringement can be theft after all. If I steal a server containing copyrighted material it is theft after all. I think we should make it simpler and include all other crimes in copyright infringement. Sounds fair. And make it death penalty, our planet is overcrowded anyway so it's gonna be an environmentally friendly law while we are at it =)

Holy sweet Mary Jesus... I am kidding but I'm astonished to find myself thinking I wouldn't be surprised if some coypright moron agreed with me.
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AJ, 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:47am

Re: Re: Oh No's!
Excellent! Care to drop by for Tea Mr. Coward? muhahahha
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Killer_Tofu (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:48am

Re: Re:
I agree about the double edged swords. However, unfortunately those who make the laws are not subject to them (see: healthcare).
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Insider, 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:59am

Re: Troll
And this concludes our trolling session of the day.
Thank you very much for attending.
We will continue offering quality trolling in the next coming days.
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Ninja (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 10:59am

Prisoner 01: "I've raped a 14 yr old."
Other prisoners: "WOW MAN! We are jealous of you!"
Prisoner 02: "I've killed 153 individuals. All after torturing them brutally."
Other prisoners: "Holy crap, you are THE MAN!"
Prisoner 03: "I infringed copyright."
Other prisoners: "For God sake, have you no decency? You low life scum. Vermin. DEVIL. You should be ashamed of being alive!"

Somehow I can't picture that scene. It's too much of an inversion of values.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 11:05am

Re:
we can always make our own prison gangs. The Shares, they'll make copies of cigarettes, cocaine and porn mags for the rest of the prison population.

and we would take care of our own, if anybody messes with us, we'll leave soo many angry comments on his cell wall
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Ron Rezendes (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 11:07am

Re: Re: is it worse...
"If you put someone in a cage for years, they are going to have almost nothing to do, chances are they might 'sing a song' while in their cage, and the middlemen could claim the copyright on that and put the next person who copies it in the cage next to them.."

You left out the follow up...when the next person is put in the cage next to them, then, when the original captive sings the middle man can bust them for a public performance!
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Ikarushka (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 11:20am

That's because infringers are the major threat to the very foundations of our society. We need good citizens like this one, not copy-terrorists.
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Jesse (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 11:35am

Re: Re:
Excellent point, I hadn't looked at it that way.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 11:43am

Re: Re: It depends ...
I think this AC was telling a joke. I found it funny at least.
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I-Blz, 31 Aug 2011 @ 11:49am

Re: It depends ...
wooooow, this is ridiculous, especially the thing about the emo genre. The emo genre does not promote suicide, or pain. What ever you say, IT. JUST. DOESN'T. "Eposing yourself means streaking, and wtf is the abuse to animals? For the sake of my reliance in your sanity, you had better have forgotten your /sarc mark
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Greevar (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 12:02pm

Re: Re: Troll
Trolling is a 24 hour job.
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Freak, 31 Aug 2011 @ 12:05pm

Re: Re: It depends ...
RFC-1149 is an internet protocol over messenger pigeons.
So, yes.

And yes, I did know that off the top of my head ;p
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Colin, 31 Aug 2011 @ 12:14pm

Re: Re: It depends ...
Wow.

Just...wow.
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DS, 31 Aug 2011 @ 12:33pm

If I copy Histoire de Melody Nelson, which tier of punishments would I fall under?
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 12:38pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yup, I see the difference. I can also see what it looks like when an adult goes in and empties out the candy factory, or holds the candy factory owners business for ransom.

However, if every kids in town comes in to take a piece of candy, sooner or later there will be calls to do something, to create a punishment that is enough of a deterrent to stop kids from taking candy. Clearly, the price of the candy alone isn't enough to stop anyone.

Also, you have to remember that there is a huge difference between criminal copyright infringement, and the merely civil.

It's sort of a wonderful strawman argument, seemingly the last refuge of the desperate anti-copyright campaigners.

Hey Mike, how come no comment on hotfile getting ordered to turn over their stats and account information?
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Ben (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 12:48pm

What about copycat killers?
If they infringe the murder technique of another, they're just asking for a longer jail time.
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The eejit (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 1:00pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Consider this:

In France, as the law stands, you currently get less jail-time for attempted molestation of children than you can for copyright infringement.

If that isn't a fuck-up sense of priorities, I don't know what is.
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The eejit (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 1:02pm

Re:
DEATH!
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 1:09pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
... and if you read the original story, it's only up to 3 years (or a 300,000 Euro fine, but not both)

Perhaps maybe the real story is that " attempted molestation of children " in France isn't treated as a serious crime.
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karel nielson, 31 Aug 2011 @ 1:13pm

Re: anonymous coward
yes, because clearly copying a song or movie is just as bad as raping or murdering somebody... those poor starving artists obviously cry themselves to sleep at night if they sleep at all...
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Aug 2011 @ 1:30pm

Re: Re: It depends ...
I was going for the funny and end up being the biggest troll on techdirt :)
Next time I will use /joke tags.

For those who don't know what RFC-1149 is http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1149.html
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JP, 31 Aug 2011 @ 1:51pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If every kid in town went in and took a piece of candy, the establishment (factory, store, whatever) would be missing a lot of candy...

If someone goes in and "takes" a "piece" of music via an unauthorized digital download, remind me again what's missing and from where?

Please don't go calling foul for other's strawman arguments, when you use a strawman yourself to refute the original response.
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johnkh, 31 Aug 2011 @ 2:02pm

how much for grand theft?
How much time would one get in comparison for simply breaking into a store and stealing all of the CDs and DVDs one wanted? First offense, probably less than for file sharing but I'm actually curious to know.
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JMT (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 2:31pm

Re: From the RIAA website:
Wow, that statement is quite amazing.

A couple of excerpts from the Wikipedia entry on Piracy in Somalia (since it's a topic most people are aware of):

"Pirates' income from ransom has been estimated to be about 39 million euro (about $58 million) in 2009 and $238 million in 2010. However, indirect costs of piracy are much higher and estimated to be between $7 to 12 billion as they also include insurance, naval support, legal proceedings, re-routing of slower ships, and individual protective steps taken by ship-owners."

"Somali piracy operations extol significant human cost. Thus in 2010, 4,185 seafarers had been attacked and 1,090 were held hostage, a third of these were abused. According to Reuters, 62 seafarers died out of over 3,500 captives during a four year period having been murdered, or from suicide or malnutrition."

So dozens of lives and many billions of dollars lost to actual piracy, but this term is to "too benign of a term to adequately describe the toll that music theft takes on the enormous cast of industry players". That's a pretty bold thing to claim. I'd love to hear an RIAA supporter try to defend it.
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JEDIDIAH, 31 Aug 2011 @ 3:03pm

Your blatant corporate feudalism
It's not a strawman by any stretch of the imagination.

It's a basic element of our Bill of Rights.

These are the things that the original states wanted added to the Constitution before they would go along with it. They were afraid of the abuses of a large central government.

They didn't want the feds to trample over rights that they held dear.

The Bill of Rights isn't just a good idea. It's the law.
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The eejit (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 3:37pm

Re: how much for grand theft?
Probably about a week, unless you did it during a riopt, in which case, it's 2 years.
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BearGriz72 (profile), 31 Aug 2011 @ 4:33pm

Re: It depends ...
I would recommend RFC-6214 myself, as it uses the updated IPv6 protocol, but that's just me.
;-)
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I-Blz, 31 Aug 2011 @ 6:50pm

Re: Re: Re: It depends ...
Pffffft, good job. I salute you, pseudo-troll.
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btrussell (profile), 1 Sep 2011 @ 3:17am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"However, if every kids in town comes in to take a piece of candy, sooner or later there will be calls to do something, to create a punishment that is enough of a deterrent to stop kids from taking candy."

If they aren't catching anyone, how will a bigger deterrent work?

Will every candy store get its own designated cop?

Or will store owner be told to police his store better or get more staff?
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ac, 4 Sep 2011 @ 2:19pm

Re: Re:
lool the AC is missing the mark. get it?
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Nos482, 6 Oct 2011 @ 11:43pm

heh
in Germany you get 3 years for owning child pornography...
and 5 years for infringements.
Fair is fair -.-
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