A Message For Congress Over Thanksgiving
from the pass-the-cranberry-sauce dept
As we head off to take a short break for Thanksgiving, I thought we'd pass along a Thanksgiving greeting card that was sent to me this morning. Unfortunately, the reports making the rounds today suggest that some are looking to pass a lot more than just the cranberry sauce, and may even be trying to make a big push to do so next week. One hopes that a continued public outcry against passing the first internet censorship plan in America will make them think twice before going down that path.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: congress, protect ip, sopa, thanksgiving
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I truly hope they pass this into law ... think about one simple consequence. The bottom line of every technology and internet company on earth will be affected. It will end up costing the tech companies more than the media companies are worth every year.
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Not at all, SOPA affects everything digital. This will affects the profit margins of every website, and communications company on the planet. It also affects how people communicate and it puts fear onto the table. Fear of being monitored, and a fear of having your voice and opinion squashed.
Why else do you think that people responded in such great numbers?
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You all make it sound as if the world will cease to exist if anything is ever enacted into US law that embraces any of the concepts contained in the current iterations of the bills.
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Example: if we had just gotten rid of all those banking regulations, we wouldn't be in this mess! If we just got rid of the government, everything would be awesome!
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Another example of social structures exist in nature, bees and ants don't work in a centralized fashion and they manage to create their own homes and live together somehow having only a small set of rules that they all know by instinctively.
To have order you don't actually need a central government, you only need a small set of universal rules that all the players fallow.
I see houses not being something that only serves as a shelter but it becomes a living organism producing something that can be used elsewhere(i.e. food, medicine, parts, metals and so forth).
I wonder why people pay insurance? it wouldn't be more reasonable to try and produce all the medicine locally to be given to a community clinic that would take care of the people who live there and instead of paying people or companies that don't care about them and have every incentive to fleece everybody why not create a scheme where doctors are paid by the community directly, not necessarily with money it could be resources and contribute the little money they have to the clinic instead of insurance.
Money is also something that is deceitful, it masks real wealth which is what people own and has access to it, right now things get expensive and that excludes a large part of the population from having and access, that is not ok, while in developing countries people who didn't have anything start to have and get access to new things.
What is preferable a system that makes something cost $100 million dollars that only a few will ever have access or something that is equally good and costs $100 dollars and everybody can afford it? Money is in a very real sense debt, it is the thing that make someone work, but if people found a way to do the work without money it would still work, and yes it is possible to live in a world without money ants and bees proved that already.
In a larger scale the world functions without a central government, there is no earth presidency position is there and somehow people manage to live together.
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So, I'm guessing you're not a history major.
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While this sounds great, the sad truth is that human nature does not work that way. Some people are not happy unless they have more than their neighbor. Others figure hey why should I get up and work hard each day if I can get what I need anyways.
The only way to live without government in a society like you suggest is for there to be no greed or corruption. Sadly this is not something I ever see happening.
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"If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" - Frederic Bastiat, "The Law"
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It is not that mankind as a whole tends towards evil. It is more that those men with evil intentions tend to exert great deals of energy to accomplish their goals. If anarchy was really so wonderful and perfect then why do we have governments at all? NO form of government has any power except the power given by the people.
Even Kings and Dictators are responsible to the people. They can do nothing without the support of those under them. Of course this does not mean they have to get that support through honest means. Often it is gotten by fear or force. In the US it has mostly been held by deception. How often do the elected officials really stick to what they promised in elections?
My point is that greed and corruption are always problems. It is a problem with our current government, it is a problem in communist governments, even in socialist governments, and is still a problem during anarchy. It is not that the human race as a whole is so bad. It is that those few who are bad can make such a mess.
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Marvelous troll tactic! "The fact that you disagree with me is proof that you're wrong." Good job!
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I have to say, Epic Fail. Your response is a total misdirection. I have read both bills, and they violate the 1st, and 4th amendments. Probably the 14th also. Protectionism of nations or businesses never works, the great depression showed that. This bill is nothing more than the government supporting an industry that hasn't changed or adapted since the early 1900's.
Pity the children, pity the poor artist, pity the content industry because the sky is falling (again), everyone has heard it before. People have woken up to this naming bills "The stop Child sex slavery bill" bullshit when it is meant to support the oil, gas, coal, content, telecom, industries.
In the future you should expect more of the same push back. You should also expect it to expand to other bills over time.
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BTW, what part of the 14th Amendment in your opinion fits into a discussion of these bills?
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The due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution is what come to mind.
It seems to also violate the 14th in multiple ways, "depriving persons of life, liberty, or property". Which kicks in for domain seizures. In a weird the "Equal Protection Clause" which requires each state to provide equal protection under law to every (each) person within its jurisdiction. With corporations being "persons" now, the average person can also use these laws in an abusive manner with no consequences.
The second one is a stretch ...
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The 14th Amendment covers several distinct matters, but to the extent it appears to pertain to the points you have proffered, you are relying on the wrong amendment to the Constitution. The 14th Amendment provisions you note are directed to state action, and not federal action. The latter is governed by the 5th Amendment.
You mention the 1st Amendment's freedom of speech, though it is worth noting that it also ensures the right of a free press. These are two entirely separate provisions that are continuously, and erroneously, treated as being one in the same.
No matter which pertains, and while it may seem a bit disingenuous, SOPA does start out with a declarative statement that nothing in the proposed bill is intended to alter any contours of the 1st Amendment and should not be interpeted to do so. The same is true with respect to Title 17 of the US Code, the location where US copyright law is codified. Then, of course, there is a savings clause declaring that if any provision is declared unconstitutional, the remained of the bill is to remain in full force and effect.
No matter how appealling it may seem, the 1st Amendment is not a absolute, and in the case of any tension between it and Title 17, the Supreme Court has held repeatedly that Title 17 incorporates a constitutional balance between the two by the provision dealing with fair use. Importantly, while the fair use provision lists 4 matters that must be considered by trial courts, the provision also provides that other matters may be considered as the trial judge deems just under the case at bar. Though these other matters do not usually enter into a court's analysis, a significant number of cases of the years have extended their analysis to more than just the 4 matters. It is likely additional matters would become the rule if only alleged infringers would quit trying to throw everything but the "kitchen sink" into these additional matters, and instead confine them to matters closely and compelling allied to the facts before the court. The Tenenbaum case is a case that illustrates the "kitchen sink" approach, which virtually doomed the consideration of some addition matters that may have had some measure, no matter how small, of merit. Of course, I ascribe this to counsel conversant in the academic environment, but basically a novice with respect to federal litigation.
The due process provision are likewise poorly understood. It does not mean that there must always be a trial because the provision is far, far broader concerning due process. It also embraces fair notice of federal statutes, as well as the extent to which the statute cabins statutory relief. Of course those opposed, for example, to the language of the statutory damages are pressing forward by arguing that a case know as Gore should be deemed controlling. What makes this a difficult argument is that the Gore standard was articulated in the context of a specific situation that is far removed from the federal statute. I dare not prognosticate of what would be the outcome were the issue to make it to the Supreme Court, but must note that it would be an uphill battle under existing Supreme Court precedent.
The deprivation of "propety" is also an interesting issue. While dicta in many, many cases reaching back to the 19th century appear to associate copyrights and property, I am personally unaware of this association having been squarely decided by the Supreme Court, including rights under patent law. While I believe precedent counsels in favor of them being equated, one can never be sure that this would be a slam dunk.
The bottom line, I guess, is that despite many declarations here by article writers and commenters to such articles, these issues are far more complex and much more nuanced that the writers and commenters would have others believe.
Again, my apologies for my "trick", but it was made to try and point out that constitutional provisions and law do not admit to easy answers in any but the most egregious of cases, as well as trying to point out that one must always be cognizant of the fact that the constitutional provisions differentiate between state actors and federal actors. The 5th Amendment addresses federal actors, whereas the relevant provision of the 14th Amendment addresses state actors.
I hope this comment provides some measure of clarification concerning constitutional law.
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It's not that they are poorly understood, it's that people understand them differently than you do. Just because people understand them differently than you do doesn't mean they are poorly understood.
and regardless, the point is that websites should not be taken down until a court deems them to be infringing. Allowing for the (temporary) cease of service beforehand is bad for legitimate services that aren't breaking the law and the harm it causes them is unacceptable. That's more reason why this bill shouldn't pass.
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Reading the Syllabus for each case is always a good starting point for homing in on the relevant portion(s) of the court's opinion.
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1/10
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Are they "detailed", like a brief or a published article? Of course not because they are general in nature. Detailed comments by necessity require a well defined issue, and even then many different legal doctrines can come into play. "Due Process" is but one example, and some insight into its many forms and permutations can be found in "top level" articles such as:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/due_process
If a top level discussion is so long, one can only begin to imagine what happens when specific facts are presented to a tribunal. "Substantive Due Process" alone can make one's head spin. It was strongly affirmed in Lochner. It was later essentially secunded to the "round file" during the FDR era, only to later be resurrected to a limited degree in Roe v. Wade.
If you want to engage in a discussion about due process, be prepared for a very, very long discussion.
Am I a Con Law "expert" on all matters associated with the constitution? No, but there are some areas where the appellation fits.
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So you give unsubstantive comments and then, when called out on it, you assert that people who disagree with you have are clueless.
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I guess even links to sites in order to illustrate that the law is multi-faceted is insufficient to give pause to anyone here who has already made up their mind, and the facts be d***ed.
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We have a word for that. It's FUD. So far, I cannot see any substantive argument for the bill and I have seen lots of FUD.
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Your argument is that, 'well, the law could be interpreted my way. Therefore, everyone who interprets it differently has a poor understanding of the law'
Who's the one who doesn't seem to understand that the law can be 'multi-faceted'.
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Restraint generally requires a hearing in front of a judge, who can issue a TRO. There are exceptions of course, however all I have heard of include some sort of custodial situation like a prisoner, a suspect in custody, or a student. Even in these cases, the penalties are levied on the restrainer, not the ones being restrained.
I don't think you'll find many people that will argue Tenenbaum's case was handled well. Nesson tried to argue broad public policy instead of arguing the case. IANAL and even I know that's a bad idea.
I'm sure there are others that will have different and possibly better constitutional arguments, possible from the over 100 lawyers and practitioners whom signed the petition.
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They are mostly directed to state action, because it was mostly the states that passed laws to violate its principles (not the federal government), but to allow the federal government to then pass laws that violate its principles would defeat the purpose. It was directed to state action because it was assumed that the federal government would not pass laws in violation of these principles, the implication being that these principles should also apply to the federal government just as well.
It's purpose is to protect citizens from certain acts of government, it would practically defeat the purpose if the federal government could abridge us of these rights that the state governments couldn't because then the end result is the same, we are still being abridged of very important rights that government shouldn't abridge us of.
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"You all make it sound as if the world will cease to exist if anything is ever enacted into US law"
No asswipe, in it's present form, it will have catastrophic unintended, and IMHO, intended consequences that go far beyond stopping the God awful pie-rates. More than enough examples have been given here and I will not waste my time on you.
Please return to the bridge from where you crawled out from.
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This bill will do the same thing that IP law has done to restaurants that want to host independent performers. IP law has hurt venues that want to host independent performers, which hurts those independent performers making it more difficult for them to gain recognition, and it hurts consumers alike. By placing more liability on service providers those service providers will be less likely to host independent content which will hurt independent content creators, it will hurt service providers, and it will hurt consumers. These consequences aren't unintended, they are intended, outside of the Internet the consequences of these laws already exist. and when overly restrictive IP laws were passed, just like when broadcasting licenses/monopolies were passed, it was argued (just like it is argued now) that there will be no unintended negative consequences and that the laws will not hurt free speech, consumers, restaurants and other hosts of independent performers, independent performers, and the public. Those arguments were wrong. IP law has gotten out of control (95+ year copy protection lengths) and the free speech necessary to criticize that does not exist outside the Internet because of some government established broadcasting and cableco monopolies. Independent performers have a hard time finding venues to perform because of the liability that these venues face from collection societies that want to collect money from them under the pretext that someone might infringe. Your arguments were wrong then and they are wrong now. These monopolistic laws exist for the same reason that taxi cab monopolies and all of the very many other government established monopolies exist, to censor free speech, to create cartels that charge consumers monopoly prices for almost everything, and because they create centralized benefits at widespread costs and those centralized beneficiaries can use their benefits to fund campaigns and manipulate politicians. The last thing we need now is an expansion of IP law, these laws need to be shot down because the only acceptable course of action Congress needs to take right now is to substantially repeal IP laws. We do not need Congress to further expand our already outrageous IP laws (or the enforcement of those laws).
This bill shouldn't pass because it's not in the public interest. Our current IP laws are not in the public interest. The only reason Congress is considering this bill is because a hand full of legacy businesses want them. The public does not want these laws, just like they do not want 95+ year copy protection lengths. Congress should not represent industry interests against the public interest. Congress should represent the will and interests of the public.
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I'm not.
If any of those dorks actually had ability in music or cinema, then they would been in the business already.
No thanks.
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And you would be able to see that, if your head wasn't stuck so far up Hollywood's ass. You pathetic shiilltard loser.
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Do not think that it is a bunch of people whining over Pirate Sites........................SOPA & PROTECT-IP ACT are so much more.
Each and every one of you who are Americans should be fighting this back.Call your Reps a few times a week and sign every petition and tell all of your friends.Post stories and news on your social network page or pages.
This could turn out to be one of the if not the worst ever conceived laws and we will rue the day they pass !!!
I WILL FIGHT FOR FREEDOM & THE AMERICAN WAY
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Damn...
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Please don't mess with my pirate sites.
Thanks,
Freetardo
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Please try harder so we may all enjoy it.
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Get a life, loser. And send some cash to the artists you enjoy ripping off so much.
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You can and deserve better, but you need to make it happen.
A lot of people are planting their own food, a lot of people are going back to basics, when people didn't need others to produce things for them, they only needed the knowledge of how to do things.
- Grow your own food.
http://frugalgranola.com/2011/10/why-its-worth-it-to-grow-your-own-food/
There is one infamous family that although got it wrong in the copyright side of things manage to survive on a 20K a year.
http://urbanhomestead.org/
- Build your own clinics.
http://www.patchadams.org/
- Make your own medicine.
http://www.microbialcellfactories.com/content/9/1/31
ps: Insulin is not the only drug that can be produced in large scale at your own kitchen, Alcohol, penicillin and others can all be made by almost anyone the thing is that it needs to be supervised since it is something new for people and we don't have the experience to deal with all the problems that can occur yet, that is why maybe it is wise to have a central place inside the community where people go to take what they produce and it gets checked there too, like the clinic you guys will build for yourselves, instead of paying insurance pay the clinic directly and they will take care of you guys for free.
- Be mobile, make a motor home or buy one and have the world as your backyard.
There is a lot one can do to reduce the cost of living and if you reduce it enough, it will not matter how much you make in a year, what will mater is how much you can produce.
Everybody keeps talking about money, but money is not that important, what is important is the level of things produced and that people have access to it, what can you produce and share with your community? what can others do or learn to do to make life easier to everyone?
http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Open_Source_Ecology
Education can also be open sourced, the little money you make can be better used if directed to things you will benefit from it directly, but for that you need others, you need a community, you need your neighbors and most importantly you need to start learning to do something.
Don't wait for others to give you answers that they probably don't have, you are own your own, make something out of it.
When money is scarce you still have your hands and your brains, you can make something and you can improve your quality of life without having to earn a lot of money.
Crazy I know but these are desperate times.
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I agree. Go see some shows. That way you know they will actually get paid.
"It's because of freeloaders like you that we have to put up with stuff like DRM and SOPA."
Actually fucktardo, it is an inability to adapt to a changing market that brings us the likes of DRM, SOPA, etc. Does someone need a clue for Christmas?
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As I am part of the "rest of the world" to me Thanksgiving is actually one US holiday/cultural event I wish was exported everywhere, it should be universal.
May your Food be bountiful, your family be joyful, and your day be quiet ;)
And lets all "Think of the Turkey" ... mmmmm turkey.. Nom nom nom nom
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My sentiments exactly. Nice post.
on comment though:
TURKEYS HAVE RIGHTS TOO!!
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That does not compute.
"Pass the cranberry sauce, not SOPA & Protect IP." is the correct sentence.
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With the comma, it's more "please pass the cranberry sauce (not SOPA) and PROTECT IP."
The commenter is a fan of the bill and thinks he's being clever. He's not being clever and it's a pretty stupid joke.
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I do not recall stating that I am in favor of SOPA. The only opinion to my best recollection I have ever expressed is that "buzz words" proliferate that make it easy for one to form an opinion without having actually read the current version of the bill.
Over the top hyperbole does nothing to promote informed discourse. Frankly, I am troubled that here and at other sites (and this includes even sites such as the EFF) that literally froth at the mouth when SOPA is even mentioned. Instead, resort is had to arm waving and broad generalizations that do not attempt in the least to identify by number the individual sections in the current bill that raise concerns and then analyze why they are viewed as concerns. This is intellectual laziness at its worst.
I am never locked into personal opinions. Specific, cogent arguments can be quite compelling and persuasive. Righteous indignation and generalizations make nice sound bites, but are otherwise unpersuasive. If one says "it is blatant censorship" and another says "it is not", nothing useful has been exchanged.
One of the advantages of our legal system is that it forces opposing parties to elaborate in detail about the positions they are presenting to a court. While one certainly does not need to go into such detail to make his/her point, the absence of detail, and especially failing to relate the point to the SOPA bill as a whole, leaves me wondering just what the heck the proponent is actually saying. Do they have a valid point, or are they just arguing for the sake of arguing?
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I got it, I'm sure others did too. We just didn't think it was worth commenting on.
Over the top hyperbole does nothing to promote informed discourse.
This is particularly ironic, since the supporters of PROTECT IP and SOPA have spouted nothing but over-the-top hyperbole.
On the other hand, the opponents of the bill have gone into a huge amount of detail about how, and why, the bills are terrible. (Probably too much, in fact.) Those objections have been met with nothing but ad homs about "pirate Mike" or idiotic conspiracy theories about "Big Search and Big Piracy."
Hell, on this very thread, one A.C. called everyone who opposed the bills "freetardo."
If you'd actually like to debate specific issues about the bills, here's a good place to start.
Or, I personally would be happy to do it here. I'm only too glad to avoid studying Computer Science for an hour or two.
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In engineering you design a circuit, throw a switch, and the light either glows or it does not. In law there is no switch. You can craft what you believe is the best contract that has ever been crafted, but there is no switch you can throw to tell you if the contract works or does not. That only comes much later if a problem arises between the parties to the contract. This is one of the first lessons one learns when engaging in legal studies. There is oftentimes no right answer, which is why the mantra of lawyers in response to questions by clients is "it depends", "maybe, maybe not", and other non-definitive phrases.
Interestingly, I have found that those who transition from science to law actually do quite well in their legal studies. This is not because they possess greater legal insight than one who has studied something in the liberal arts, but because they tend to be detail oriented and work that much harder to master the details associated with law.
BTW, the linked article is in my opinion not a good place to start. Assertions are made throughout the article, but nowhere are those assertions backed up by reference to specific sections of the pending bills and an analysis of those sections. It is simply not possible to present a thoughtful response to an assertion without having at hand the details that underlie the assertion.
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I believe the word for that is FUD.
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No, it is not FUD. In order to spread FUD, you need to actually assert something that invokes "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt." The only thing he's asserting is "you womenfolk are hysterical."
Now, it is many other things. Ad hominem circumstantial? Certainly. Appeal to motive? Possibly. Red herring? Absolutely. But FUD it is not.
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While he doesn't seem to be trying to invoke fear, he does want to invoke uncertainty and doubt. Maybe it's just UD. He wants us to be uncertain of our own legal arguments without promoting any opposing view. He wants us to doubt our own knowledge of the law and those who agree with us.
"You womenfolk are hysterical," actually seems like text book FUD, or UD as it were.
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For example, Section 103(a)(1) defines a site "Dedicated to Theft of US Property", which definition in turn depends upon the definition of "U.S.-DIRECTED SITE" set forth in Section 101(23).
I have read Section 103 numerous times trying to figure out what it is about the section that gives rise to all the comments that most, if not all, social media sites would be put at risk if SOPA was enacted into law. This does not mean that my reading is correct and everyone else is wrong. It simply means that the facts underlying the assertions being made are not readily apparent to me in light of the language used in Section 103.
Importantly, this does not mean I believe Section 103 is just fine as written and need not be amended. I am truly interested in learning about alternate interpretations of the language that could give rise to the assertions being made here.
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However, we already know that tools like these are often not used in good faith. All a competitor would have to do is upload a copyrighted work onto the site and then claim file a notice to cut off all funding.
We already know that competitors and corporate enemies have used similar tactics in the past with DMCA notices. (Viacom v Youtube)
It seem inevitable that bad actors will abuse this language to hamper their competitors until they can no longer compete.
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This will also freeze most venture capital that would otherwise run into the industry because the second you become interesting, your competitors can use this pretense to kill your business.
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http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110623/11401714827/top-vcs-tell-congress-protect-i p-will-harm-innovation.shtml
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111107/12192016669/study-shows-ho w-sopapipa-will-harm-investment-key-innovations.shtml
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Um. The recent Booz study showed that passing PIPA/SOPA would lead to a massive decline in investment.
Furthemore, Lehrner's recent study on the investment impact of something like the Cablevision ruling shows how this is not a hypothetical. The impact of changes in the law -- or changes in interpretation of the law has a massive impact.
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Note that the private right of action in Section 103 is not against the payment and ad providers. It is against the websites that are a "US Directed Site Dedicated to Theft of US Property". Even then, trying to take such a site down requires involvement of a federal court. Given the definition of a "US Directed Site" it is difficult to conceive of circumstances where sites like YouTube would fall within the definition. Obviously, some rights holders may try and stretch the definition, but that in and of itself does not mean that the definition is deficient or that such holders stand any realistic chance of prevailing.
Admittedly, the DOJ has more legal ammunition under Section 102 than private parties under 103, but even then the DOJ had neither the resources nor inclination to pursue every site that may be playing fast and loose with the law. It saves its ammunition for egregious violators.
The sites, new and old, that may be at risk are those whose business model is built around exploiting in some fashion the works of rights holders without their permission.
In all candor, I do believe the stated 5 day period in Section 103 (likely calendar, and not business, days) is too short. Heck, sometimes it takes me 5 days just to play out telephone tag.
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That's not... quite... what happened:
- Google-Viacom Court Documents Out; Google Says Viacom ‘Secretly’ Uploaded Videos
To date, Google has won every court case against Viacom.
And if SOPA was around when the lawsuit started, Viacom would have been able to "blacklist" YouTube, without ever seeing the inside of a courtroom, and it's extremely unlikely that YouTube would even exist today.
That doesn't strike you as a bit scary?
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"Executives as high up as the president of Comedy Central and the head of MTV Networks felt "very strongly" that clips from shows like The Daily Show and The Colbert Report should remain on YouTube."
It's not solid evidence that those top executives were directly behind it, but it does make me wonder.
The question becomes how is a service supposed to know what is authorized and what isn't?
In this case the legitimate copyright holders uploaded clips to a site, took steps to hide their origin, and later sued to accuse that site of being dedicated to copyright infringement. (If you need a source on that, I'm sure someone can provide it.)
Viacom lost because the safe harbors remained intact and they were caught. What happens when the next guy learns from Viacom's mistake and doesn't get caught? What happens if the company isn't big enough to fight in the first place?
These are the questions that will scare investment in start ups and small businesses out of the United States, and into other countries. Microsoft and Google both seem to believe the bill goes too far, and they don't have to worry about affording lawyers.
If ad and financial services can no longer do business with sites that are legal in their country of origin, won't that just open up a market to those that will? If the cost of business becomes too high in the US, don't you think that companies will just move or invest their money in other countries where regulatory risk is lower?
Maybe it will be a new company called Google Taiwan that is a subsidiary of Google whom will be expand to serve ads to these websites that are legal in their home country. Maybe another company will come along and eat Google's lunch. I bet a payment processor in China or Europe would be more than happy to do business with sites that are legal in their country of origin but blacklisted here.
I think the bill as written will drive jobs and investment out of the United States, reduce taxable income in the United States, and do little to enrich the copyright holders.
I'm sure their are a lot of constitutional challenges that can and will be made, but the real problem is that it replaces an easy rule (DMCA takedowns) with uncertainty, trials, and lawyer fees for the foreseeable future.
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Think about that. These were literally designed by the US government for free speech. Under SOPA, they would be illegal. The same can be said for proxy and vpn services. These services are used to ensure privacy, communicate and publish anonymously, and avoid censorship.
I think that provision in particular would have a hard time passing constitutional scrutiny.
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Seriously, if the company can't keep straight what they have released and what is 'infringing' compared to what is 'authorized' then NOBODY else has any chance in hell of ever making an ACCURATE determination.
Of course an accurate determination of infringement is not needed or desired, they don't want actual evidence, only to be able to point, make bogus claims, and eliminate the competition.
1. Pass E-PARASITES (SOPA, Protect IP, etc).
2. Accuse competitors of 'infringement' getting them kicked off of the internet and denying them all payments.
3. PROFIT.... ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK BABY (GOOD THING WE BAILED THEM OUT, OR WE WOULD HAVE TO FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO TAKE OUR STOLEN PROFITS)
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By the way, it would help if you mention which bill you're talking about (SOPA or PROTECT IP). I happen to know this is SOPA, so we're good to go in this instance.
For example, Section 103(a)(1) defines a site "Dedicated to Theft of US Property", which definition in turn depends upon the definition of "U.S.-DIRECTED SITE" set forth in Section 101(23).
You'll notice that nowhere in 101(23) is the word "foreign" ever mentioned:
So, yes, the entirety of Section 103 applies to foreign and domestic web sites. Including YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Blogger, Wordpress, etc.
Any other issues? Glad to help.
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Oh, by the way: That's only half of the concern. The other half is Sec. 201, the "streaming" part of the bill. It is not directly connected to the "rogue sites" part of the bill, so it applies to everyone who streams content, including YouTube, Vimeo, etc.
There's a whole lot of terrible in that section, too. The new 506(g), "Evidence of Total Retail Value," is especially noxious in my opinion, but it's all bad.
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A tremendous frustration in statutory analysis is that sections of law continually refer to other sections of law, all of which have to be considered as a whole. Try wending your way through the Internal Revenue Code, and after a while you will long for a drill to place against your temple just to relieve the pain of trying to comprehend the almost incomprehensible. If a drill is unavailable, an ice pick will work quite nicely.
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The problem is as follows... I'll use the language straight from Section 103, but pull it together in a single sentence, leaving out the extraneous parts to highlight the issue:
We'll stop there for now. The next section is problematic too. But here, the law clearly states that you can be found "dedicated to the theft of US property" if "a portion" of your site "is primarily designed... for use in... enabling or facilitating" infringement under the laws mentioned.
This is very problematic. YouTube is primarily designed in a way that enables or facilitates infringement.
Twitter is primarily designed in a way that enables or facilitates infringement.
Facebook (or a portion of Facebook) is primarily designed in a way that enables or facilitates infringement.
eBay is primarily designed in a way that enables or facilitates infringement.
All of these sites, under the law, could be designated as dedicated to theft of US property. That troubles me. Does it not trouble you?
The definition continues:
And yes, I know that this comes from the recent Supreme Court ruling, but there is no way to read this as a tech entrepreneur (and trust me, I've spoken to hundreds at this point about this bill) to interpret that in any way other than "you need to proactively monitor." The problem here is the sheer ridiculousness of the idea that you can get in trouble for "taking deliberate actions" to "avoid" taking action. How do you know if you took deliberate action to avoid taking action? The only way most normal people can interpret that is you have to take action.
As mentioned, I've spoken to hundreds (yes, multiple) of entrepreneurs about SOPA, and nearly every one reads that and says "to avoid liability, I have to shut down any user generated content, or I have to spend upwards of a million dollars on a special filtering or monitoring system." Otherwise, the RISK is that you get hit by the private right of action, and someone accuses you of "deliberately" avoiding actions.
I find it amazing that some lawyers and politicians, who have never spoken to startups can pretend that the entrepreneurs running these things aren't freaked the hell out about this section of the bill. They're scared shitless. The bill basically makes it a HUGE liability to have any user generated content as an aspect of your business.
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BTW, I have likewise spoken to many startups and VCs, but almost always in the context of forming the startup and securing VC support. I well know what runs through the minds of the latter since participation in their due diligence has always been a necessity.
Your preoccupation with deliberate avoidance in my view misapprehends what is meant by the term. It may seem overly simplistic to you, but it is really nothing more than a "head in the sand" situation.
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It doesn't really matter what is "meant" by the term.
It only matters what content holders believe is "meant" by the term.
Once they decide you are a site "dedicated to the theft of U.S. property," they can send off "global DMCA" requests to advertisers and payment processors, who are required to immediately blacklist you or face lawsuits themselves. And the content owners do not need to involve any part of the legal system to do so: no warrants, no TRO's, nothing.
Now, you can possibly get your site back, provided that you shoulder the burden of proving that your site is not "dedicated to the theft of U.S. property." Of course, if you do, you're unlikely to get any damages. You must prove that the rights holders who blacklisted you "knowingly materially misrepresent[ed]" [103(6)] the fact that you were a rogue site. That is a fairly high burden of proof.
It is certainly far, far higher than a mere "taking [...] deliberate actions to avoid confirming a high probability" of third-party infringement.
Think if the language in 103(6) stated that rights holders could be liable for the entire financial burden of their blacklists, merely by "taking deliberate actions to avoid confirming a high probability" that the sites they blacklisted were not actually "sites dedicated to the theft of U.S. property." Rights holders would scream bloody murder, because even the vague suspicion that they were not rogue sites is enough to trigger liability.
And, as I stated, merely by issuing a counter-notification to payment processors or advertisers, all foreign sites are required to provide "a statement that the owner or operator, or registrant, consents to the jurisdiction of the courts of the United States" [103(b)(5)(A)(ii)]. This uncertain, and highly questionable, definition is to be exported to the entire globe; and if you even try to fight it, you open yourself open to a lawsuit in the U.S., without much of a chance of gaining anything even if you win.
it is really nothing more than a "head in the sand" situation.
A situation which is, at present, does not make you liable for any form of copyright infringement whatsoever, even at the civil level:
- Viacom v. Google
Since SOPA also applies to counterfeit goods, I'd also like to point out that the "head in the sand" situation doesn't make you liable for trademark infringement, either:
- Tiffany v. eBay
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You're so full of shit it's not even funny any more.
I did not remove ANY meaningful words. I put it together including the complete phrases necessary for discussion.
BTW, I have likewise spoken to many startups and VCs, but almost always in the context of forming the startup and securing VC support. I well know what runs through the minds of the latter since participation in their due diligence has always been a necessity.
I have spoken to over 200 startups and 50 VCs about THIS LAW specifically.
And I note you don't respond to a single point I raised.
Your preoccupation with deliberate avoidance in my view misapprehends what is meant by the term. It may seem overly simplistic to you, but it is really nothing more than a "head in the sand" situation.
Again, you are full of shit.
I'm sorry to call you out like this, but it's high time you're called out. You've been on Techdirt for a few years, and your MO is well established. You comment in a totally pedantic manner, implying that everyone else is a complete moron for not understanding things to the level that you do. But then when ANYONE calls you out on specifics, you deflect and ignore.
Note that nowhere do you actually respond to a single point raised.
And that's because you're full of shit.
The only one "deliberately avoiding" anything here is you.
I do not have my head in the sand. I've been spending a ton of time on this issue, and frankly, I'm going to say it again: you're full of shit.
If you believe our analysis is in error, put up or shut up. Otherwise, you are full of shit and I shall call out the fact that you are full of shit again and again.
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Before I returned to college to get a degree in computer science, I majored in music and philosophy (yes, including rhetoric and logic). So I think I have a grasp of things, thanks.
Also, please try not to make "don't worry your pretty little head" arguments again. It's very unbecoming of a gentleman.
BTW, the linked article is in my opinion not a good place to start. Assertions are made throughout the article, but nowhere are those assertions backed up by reference to specific sections of the pending bills and an analysis of those sections.
He does actually quote sections of both bills. I have read both bills myself, multiple times, and in my opinion, Mike's analysis is too tame; the bills are far worse than he says.
So, I'll tell you what: if you want to know what sections the article refers to, ask, and I'll give you the sections, and quote them here.
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False. Analysis skills that are employed by engineers and scientists do not equate to a misunderstanding of law and the implications thereof.
In engineering you design a circuit, throw a switch, and the light either glows or it does not. In law there is no switch.
Yes, but Ohm's Law allows us to equate both sides of a circuit board and find the details of why a circuit is not functioning properly. In terms of law, the laws passed could be heavily one sided (in this case the DMCA), where the implications won't be felt until quite some time later (almost immediate takedowns, court challenges, and threats to innovative startups). Unless the people take efforts to balance the law, it can be passed based on who has the most money (as evidenced by the MPAA spending $94M so far this year).
This is not because they possess greater legal insight than one who has studied something in the liberal arts, but because they tend to be detail oriented and work that much harder to master the details associated with law.
That's good to know, but it's quite worrying. Why would I want an engineer as a lawyer instead of an engineer building new servers, technology, or figuring out new techniques in business that are more efficient?
Assertions are made throughout the article, but nowhere are those assertions backed up by reference to specific sections of the pending bills and an analysis of those sections.
I'm calling to question your "assertions". Please identify the parts that need to reference the bill as well as the supposed inaccuracies. From what I saw, the post is fairly accurate with respect to each section of the bill, culminating from posts from the last 2 weeks of stories.
The only issue that I have is with the post that the definitive post didn't tackle the end of the bill, where the US government attempts to export their copyright law to other countries.
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Try to explain that to the drafters of SOPA. From 103(c):
In other words: Responding to a "global DMCA" takedown request will automatically open you up to a lawsuit in the United States, regardless of where you live, and regardless of whether the U.S. has jurisdiction (personal or otherwise). In fact, that happens even if third party payment networks or advertisers fail to comply with the "global DMCA" request.
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The DMCA and SOPA are separate and distinct, and notices associated with each serve fundamentally different purposes.
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You're quite correct. That's why I put it in quotes. But it's fairly obvious that the "notice and blacklist" provisions of SOPA are modeled after the "notice and takedown" provisions of the DMCA. They use almost identical language.
In fact, I'm not the one who came up with the phrase. Bloggers started using it almost immediately. And it's fairly accurate.
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Are you sure about that? Ok, then why is the MPAA using copyright issues in New Zealand, the UK, Sweden, and Brazil to change their laws into something that makes those countries worse off?
Why was the ACTA created over the TRIPS agreements with NO input from the public that should be benefitting?
Finally, why was Hew Raymond Griffiths prosecuted from Australia, having never visited the US? Better yet, why does the US use the Extradition Act for UK resident Richard O Dwyer in order to prosecute him for criminal copyright infringement?
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Leaked SOPA Email Shows Strong Arm Tactics
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Go listen to ABBA
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Wake-up Congress!
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Re: Wake-up Congress!
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Duh. Did you not notice sycotic074? Shoulda been a clue.
"instead of making dire threats against your government"
MY government died long ago. What we have now no longer represents the rupblic this counrty was supposed to be. So he has it 100% correct.
"STOP FUCKING THE PEOPLE OR THE PEOPLE WILL KILL YOU"
Put a little nicer:
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iorb8D6Eqwg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrLLpBk 1aXU
Welcome to the New America.
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"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manner." -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to William S. Smith, 1787
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Re: Wake-up Congress!
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Wake-up Congress!
The tax payers bailed out the banks, AIG, GM, ETC....but what thanks are the taxpayers that bailed them out get?(How many different stupid fees can we make up to post profits??) I FOR ONE WELCOME ANARCHY IF THIS IS WHAT WE GET FOR OUR BAIL-OUT EFFORTS.....BURN IT ALL!!!!.....RAPE, PILLAGE, PLUNDER, We the people are not appreciated so why even bother....sell some crack...some kids.....who cares....we got to get paid...one way or the other, because we are the ones "putting in work" not these busters in government, they don't even know what a "honest days work" is..I think I'll go puke now and look at what I need to do to get out of this so called superpower of bullshit. I'm ashamed to admit I am american.
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Does anyone else think somebody's hit the sauce a little early for the thanksgiving celebrations?
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Techdirtbag
Tech-dirtbag or
techdirt-bag (cuz I would really like one of those.)
Being a self-proclaimed dirtbag, I take offence to you lumping everyone in my catagory. I have worked very hard to become a dirtbag and do not think others here have that kind of commitment to truly be one. In fact, we know from the daily ritual of coming to TD, that we have for the most part a varied level of contributors most of which are not dirtbags. So your generalazition of this community, although right on par with the rest of the fucktard AC's, is incorrect. (Surprise there... NOT)
So in the spirit of the upcoming holidays Merry suck my d*ck, and Happy F*ck you. :)
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You think the tax payers bailed out the banks !!! HAHAHAHAHA..
Tax payers dont have any money either, just as your government has not money.
CHINA bailed out the US, is bailing out the US, and will (probably) continue to bail out the US.
Until they say "now give it all back,,, yanks"
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The taxpayer will eventually need to bail out the US government though. Everyone knows that the current system cannot continue forever and the US taxpayer will eventually feel the pain.
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WARNING!
Before you click on the link below, know that the first image is a realistic rendering of a human being without his skin from a CT Scan of a cadaver, so if you don't like to see graphic images of dead people don't go there.
T. Kroes, F. H. Post, and C. P. Botha, Interactive direct volume rendering with physically-based lighting, Preprint 2011-11, Delft University of Technology, 2011.
Now who owns those images? the dead person, the family of the dead person, the university, the guy who rendered the image.
CT scans are just images in black and white but they are copyrighted according to the law, so what are the repercussions to medical imaging, what could go wrong in that space?
That is why I'm posting the link to the software and images, SOPA and other laws are not going to affect only useless arts but the useful ones too.
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Some people like to say there is no law guaranteeing theft right?
Hospitals and universities better be prepared for those things happening to them too, since anyone can claim theft of imaginary property and the financial services they use to stop doing business with them.
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how about this?
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Unfortunately, like many of the governments around the world, other peoples finances and lives are just a game. It's never going to hurt the people in the higher tax brackets, it's all about not losing face and coming in at the last minute with an 'acceptable to all parties' deal that makes it look as if both sides are heroes to their respective constituants.
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Medicare and Medicaid are also out of control of course. That is largely because we don't negotiate for drug prices and services with providers.
We won't get substantive cuts until we kick out the drug lobby, the defense lobby, and whoever the lobby is that convinces hospitals to buy 2 dollar switches for 250 dollars.
Don't hold your breath.
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Didnt the White House just do this?
So apparently this rule is already in place! Congress doesn't need to be involved.
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Dear Congress,
Afterwards, please do not pass a law that was transparently designed to target lawful sites that "hide behind safe harbors" - like YouTube, Facebook, and pretty much every other website - and has not much to do with piracy.
Love,
The entire public.
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RULE #2: You don't talk about those Traci Lords movies you downloaded.
RULE #3: Traci who? Never heard of her.
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HAD TO DO WHAT I HAD TO DO
Itunes on Dec 16, 2011. This track is receiving rave reviews
from fans and industry insiders!
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NewCharlesEntertainment (profile), Nov 25th, 2011 @ 10:49am
New hip-hop release by NewCharles Entertainment recording artist Johnnie Newkirk Jr @ http://www.newcharlesentertainment.com Will be released on
Itunes on Dec 16, 2011. This track is receiving rave reviews
from fans and industry insiders!
Why did this get flagged? He's just CwF RtB.
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Connecting with fans? It would be one thing if we ever saw him/her before, or spent a little time here gradually letting us know about NCE, but joining to spam the comments is targeting the wrong audience. A spammer gives no one a RtB. Troll fail yet again. Don't you guys get tired of FAIL?
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So what your saying is you cannot connect with fans unless you allready know those fans and have 'connected' with them before hand !!!
So what you are saying was only directed to Mike ?
Next time, send him an email...
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That troll wasn't as good. 1/10
You can do better than that.
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"Connecting with Fans" does not mean "spamming." In fact, the very fact that this was flagged shows that he did not "connect" with anyone.
If you're from a traditional label, however, that's an easy mistake to make. Especially since they think "connecting with fans" is only "mailing out our promo pack to everyone in the media, whether they want it or not."
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So it's "your way" or the highway !!!!
I thought he should have been showcased as using INNOVATION and TECHNOLOGY to further his cause. To gain fans and give a reason to buy....
He is using available technology, that is "FREE FOR USE", and using that free, available technology to connect with fans and to provide a reason to buy.
It does show the total hypocracy that invades this site.
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First of all, annoying people is not "connecting" with them. Obviously. So, no, he's not "connecting with fans." And I'd like to see how spamming comments gives anyone a "reason to buy."
Second of all, I'm not specifically "against" it. I didn't flag the guy. But I'm not going to pretend he's acting any differently than a pop-up ad or a spam email for Viagra.
I'll tell you who is against it, though: the people who flagged him, who are the very people he's trying to "connect" with. Pretty big fail, I'd say.
Hell, if I did that with any of my albums, I'd expect to get flagged too.
Third of all... you forgot to sign your name, Darryl. The UNNECESSARY CAPITALIZATION and EXCLAMATION POINTS give you away !!!
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He might of annoyed you, but most things annoy you, most people (me included) dont care if we annoy you or not.
Some people (me included) might even take some pride and delight in annoying you !!
Or do we all have and talk to Karl to find out if his judgement means you are allowed to proceed.
It is not CwF unless "Karl" says so !!!
You state you are not specifically against it, except you are willing to come out in defense of those who are, so are you are arnt you ?
Or are you 'on the fence', not willing to take a firm stand either way, or are you waiting for advice from "the masnick" on how to act ?
What is the difference between his comment and an add that mike allows on this web site.
What is the difference from his post and the posts from Masnick PROMOTING indie artists ?
Is it because Masnick is not in the "money chain" if someone else profits from his site? I thought Masnick did not have an issue with people using his site for profit !
If it is ok for Masnick why is it NOT ok for you..
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Well, OK, if you insist... last time, though.
So how are you supposed to connect with fans if you are not allowed to make contact with them ?
You make announcements like this in a forum where it's acceptable to post these sorts of things. (I mean "forum" in a general sense, not specifically an Internet forum.) There are millions of sites that are specifically music-oriented, and dozens of social network sites where announcements like this are de rigueur.
The one thing you do not do is post announcements like this in forums where people neither expect nor want them. That's called "spamming." Not only will it fail to help you connect with anyone, it severely undermines the connections you might already have.
It shows that you have no regard for the community. Disregarding their desires is hardly a way to "connect" with anyone.
He might of annoyed you, but most things annoy you, most people (me included) dont care if we annoy you or not.
He annoyed everyone - which is perfectly obvious, since the post was flagged by the community, and comments aren't hidden until a few people actually report the post. (I don't know how many, it depends on how Mike set up the flagging software.)
Notice that even though you annoy me, your comments haven't been flagged, and in fact I'm responding to them.
You state you are not specifically against it, except you are willing to come out in defense of those who are, so are you are arnt you ?
Just because I'm not specifically against it, does not mean I'm specifically for it, either. I don't care about it enough to flag it, and I don't care about it enough to object when other people flag it. If I were forced at gunpoint to make that choice, I would choose to flag it, but luckily I'm not.
So why am I even responding? Because I do have some sympathy for the guy. I've been a musician for many years, and know what it's like to want to get the word out. And there are tons and tons of sites out there that advise you to participate in exactly this sort of spamming. It doesn't work, and never did, but if you're new to the game (or even just an incompetent marketer), then it's understandable that you'd try it.
Hell, I used to write record reviews, and even though I stopped years ago, I still get this sort of crap in my inbox. It comes from the same mentality as sending unsolicited demos to every label in existence, even if they don't put out your type of music. It's usually lower-level, third-party marketing "firms" who do this, and it annoys everyone. It failed then, and it fails now, but unfortunately some artists get sucked into it. Some even pay for this "marketing." It's truly a scam, it fundamentally preys on desperate artists, and it needs to stop.
So, if "NewCharles Entertainment" ever comes back to this site at all, I'm giving them some advice. Stop spamming everyone. You're hurting yourself, and you're hurting your artists.
Or are you 'on the fence', not willing to take a firm stand either way, or are you waiting for advice from "the masnick" on how to act ?
This is rich, considering that Mike wrote a post on this very subject on Wednesday.
What is the difference between his comment and an add that mike allows on this web site.
Since I block Flash ads, basically none.
What is the difference from his post and the posts from Masnick PROMOTING indie artists ?
The artists Mike talks about are relevant to the other things he talks about here: different promotional ideas, selling scarcities, effectively connecting with fans, etc.
This makes those articles informative, and not advertisements. In fact, he's not really "promoting" the band itself, but their business ideas. He's written a few times about bands (e.g. Pomplamoose) that I think are just terrible, but that doesn't mean I don't read the articles.
Is it because Masnick is not in the "money chain" if someone else profits from his site?
Really? You honestly think that I'd be offended if anyone else made money from Techdirt, even if Mike didn't get a cut?
Well, I wouldn't. In fact, I hope that the artist does make money, even if it involves Techdirt. But he's never going to do that if he spams random comment threads and pisses on the community here.
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Oh ok, so Techdirt is not a site that is intended to allow or to promote "connect with fans"
The one thing you do not do is post announcements like this in forums where people neither expect nor want them.
Oh, but Masnick posts about new and upcoming 'indie' artists all the time !!! ON THIS VERY SITE !!!!
So we DO expect them, and Masnick will give up what he wants too.. regardless of what "we" want !!..
That's called "spamming."
No, IT IS NOT... !!!!! do you actually know what spamming is ?
How can a single post, (and a follow up question) be considered spamming ?
If you do not understand what spamming IS, and what CERSORSHIP is (what happened to him by being tagged).
Then you need to learn a few more facts before you shoot off !!!
You first mission is to understand what "spamming" is !!!!
So why am I even responding?
Goog question !!!, why are you ? Someone is actually trying to do something, and to provide a service SOME might want to consider, and you whine about it... Because it's not from Masnick,, but by someone INDEPENDENT !!!
I might be able to understand you being upset if Sony or a big media company posted a message (NOT even spammed a message).
But you whine like a baby about an 'indie' artist trying to follow Masnicks mantra !!!
He annoyed everyone - which is perfectly obvious, since the post was flagged by the community
Says YOU !!!!, are you now the official judge of who is or is not 'annoyed' and does that give you the right to make a decision for all those people.
I was not annoyed, and im sure many others were not either.
So you saying "he annoyed everyone" is just a blantant lie right !
The artists Mike talks about are relevant to the other things he talks about here:
So Masnick just uses them for his own advantage, and not for the benifit of the artists.
Masnick will only "support" artists if he can "get something out of it".. oh ok,, now I understand...
Really? You honestly think that I'd be offended if anyone else made money from Techdirt, even if Mike didn't get a cut?
Obviously you are ! you are offended enough to go into a massive tirade about it. Mike gets a cut because he got another person to visit his site. and from you (and me) making these comments !!..
So are you really upset that Mike DID get a cut from it ?
It's funny when the attack dogs of Masnick try to defend him, and attack others for doing the very think Masnick spends his pointless life trying to do himself.
At least this guy was trying to create something, and to actually gain an connect with fans (just like Mike says).
What does Masnick do to 'connect with fans' or the promote a reason to buy ?
But when someone else does it, you get your panties in a knot and go crying and whining who ever will listen (not very many)...
But he's never going to do that if he spams random comment threads and pisses on the community here.
What community is that ? everyone you agree with ?
There is no single community here, there is a group here that believe every word that masnick preaches, and will defend his statements regardless of truth to the death.
There is another community here that enjoys attacking the attack dogs of masnick (likes of you), mainly because it is SO easy to do and secondly because of your 'interpretation' of the word of Masnick.
There is another group here that attacks the issues and points that Masnick himself makes and calls out bullshit when they see it.
There is another group and come here for the fun and sport of watching all the other groups fight it out.
Just like in the real world there is not "one community" there are differing opinions and idea's and not everyone can believe any if not all of what Masnick rattle on about.
But most people come here to see a group of losers who have never created anything decent in their life whine about people who are successful and who are routinely able to create things of value.
And because they cannot create or do anything, they come here and whine and cry about those who can and do..
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HAD TO DO WHAT I HAD TO DO
Oh, but Masnick posts about new and upcoming 'indie' artists all the time !!! ON THIS VERY SITE !!!!
So we DO expect them, and Masnick will give up what he wants too.. regardless of what "we" want !!..
Well, y'know, it is HIS site, not ours. If it was truly offensive to anyone, we could all leave... and he would be much worse off because of it.
Of course, he doesn't do that (and never did), which is why us unpaid-but-opinionated wordsmiths call the site our home. Seems to me like he's "connnecting with fans" better than anything you've ever done. (Or the original poster, who, I notice, has never come back.)
What community is that ? everyone you agree with ?
Well, quite obviously, the community that FLAGGED HIS POST AS SPAM. Which, I want to re-iterate, does not include me; though I find nothing wrong with flagging his post as such, because that's what it is.
Just like in the real world there is not "one community" there are differing opinions and idea's and not everyone can believe any if not all of what Masnick rattle on about.
Luckily for you, then, that the flagged posts are not "censored," but merely hidden, and can be revealed again with a simple click of the mouse. Unlike, say, anyone who is a "rogue website" under the bills we're talking about - who would have their entire site "flagged," so nobody in the entire world would be able to see anything on their site (legally, at least). And by the way, we are talking about those bills, not the decision by a single website to sorta kinda hide stuff the community doesn't like.
But most people come here to see a group of losers who have never created anything decent in their life
This forum has more artists, per capita, than any other website I've seen. Including the RIAA's. Pretty much EVERYONE who disagrees with you is an artist. Most of us make money because of it; some of us do it exclusively as a living.
But let's pretend that's not the case. Well, so what? Copyright was intended primarily to benefit those who "never created anything decent in their life." That is, the general public. So, even if your stupid insult is correct (which it is not), it would be irrelevant.
Oh, and if anyone is looking for a loser, they need not look farther than you. I've got multiple albums published by multiple labels. You? You're an idiotic half-musician who has no talent, your music sucks, and you're just resentful because you couldn't make it big. In fact, if you were actually allowed into Jamendo, you'd change your tune in a heartbeat.
Right?
(Before you answer, consider that every single criticism about artists on this site has been nothing more than this.)
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If only those organizations prone to buzz word statements took the time to do what is starting to happen here. This is precisely what is needed when dealing with Congress on any bill to have it sit up and take notice. Arm waiving is easily dismissed. Detailed analysis is not.
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You are full of shit. I have been quoting specific provisions and language from the bill since the day it was released.
So, seriously, if you disagree, put up or shut up. Or we will say it again: you are full of shit.
If only those organizations prone to buzz word statements took the time to do what is starting to happen here. This is precisely what is needed when dealing with Congress on any bill to have it sit up and take notice. Arm waiving is easily dismissed. Detailed analysis is not.
And... look, the full of shit lawyer again refuses to make any statement on the merits. Nor does he back up his early pedantic comments claiming some of us do not understand the bill. That's because he's full of shit.
Put up or shut up.
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Right, then. You're admitting you're full of shit.
You could have just said so up front.
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Importantly, I am not inclined to engage in tit for tat exchanges of words I deem unworthy of respectful discourse.
I am also not inclined, except on very limited occasions, to respond to comments/questions when they are presented in a manner that would require a treatise to formulate what I believe to be a thoughtful response.
In the case of the bills before both the House and the Senate, I have little doubt that they will undergo markups to address certain provisions that upon reflection may be unartfully presented. Even knowing this will result, I still believe it is important that persons making broad generalizations/assertions concerning the bills as they are currently structured should at the very least identify the relevant portions of the bills and what it is about the present text that underlies one's objections.
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It seems to me that a reciprocal obligation should apply with equal force. If someone happens to say any of the bills "will gut the DMCA safe harbors", it does not seem unreasonable to ask them to likewise "show me your analytical evidence."
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Opinions can rarely be backed up with citation as they're part of an internal thought process, however, if you're quoting facts, a relevant link would undoubtably aid your argument, whether for or against.
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It seems to me that a reciprocal obligation should apply with equal force. If someone happens to say any of the bills "will gut the DMCA safe harbors", it does not seem unreasonable to ask them to likewise "show me your analytical evidence."
Again, you're full of shit. We and others have explained in great detail -- with specific language -- how it will gut the DMCA safe harbors.
You have not responded. Because you're full of shit.
Again: it's time to call you out on it. Until you actually have something substantive to say, you will remain, full of shit.
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To which Karl as well as Mike have done in their postings. It seems others have commented and found your rebuttals lacking in substance. I can only inquire why you continue to obfuscate the issue rather than engage in debate.
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For example, is it really reasonable to conclude from Section 103 that the mentioned social media sites are "primarily designed or operated for the purpose of" facilitating/encouraging/etc. violations of Title 17? I think not. While all would agree that they can be used for such purposes, it seems to be quite a stretch to say that they were designed or are operated for the purpose of encouraging such violations.
Moreover, it should not be overlooked that nothing in the bill takes away any of the provisions of the DMCA. Safe Harbors remain in full force and effect without modification.
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If a private entity can cut off all funding to that site without any judicial oversite, the safe harbor is effectively gutted. That business can no longer function.
If the only way to restore funding is to take responsibility for its users actions, the risk becomes too great for investment. The safe harbor is gutted.
The concern is over the word facilitating. Any medium that allows users to freely exchange ideas could be caught up in a long, costly lawsuit deciding whether or not it is primarily designed for infringement, or if that is a secondary function.
Is code for sharing music/video/text primarily designed for infringement? Is it agnostic to the copyright status of the media? Is the primary use of the code to exchange media within the scope of its license, or public domain material? What test will decide these factors?
I believe these questions need clear answers before the bill is made law.
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And I've explained, at great length, why it only matters whether content owners believe it's "reasonable to conclude" whether specific Internet industries are "primarily designed or operated for the purpose of" enabling infringement (a word which, I notice, you deliberately left out of your reply, despite the fact that it's plainly in the bill).
You did not respond to this point. Just like you have not responded to any point that was raised.
Sorry, but I'm with Mike on this one. I have no idea who you are or how long you've been on this site. But in this thread, at least, you have proven yourself to be, in Mike's words, "full of shit."
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My placing "primarily" in bold was simply to note at least one substantive limitation that I believe cuts in a direction opposite the assertions expressed by so many concerning Section 103.
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Perhaps it is because merely copying text without attempting to analyze its metes and bounds falls short of the mark.
And don't think I, or anyone else, did not notice this stupid little trick of moving the goalposts.
This site (and others that criticize SOPA/PROTECT IP) have done nothing but "analyze its metes and bounds," and you criticize them because they "do not attempt in the least to identify by number the individual sections in the current bill that raise concerns."
Yet when they do quote individual sections of the bill, you accuse them of "merely copying text."
Yep. Full of shit.
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Well, then, you shouldn't be talking about copyright law.
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I'm not. But sometimes you just have to call out someone who is full of shit for being full of shit.
Actually taking the time to discuss issues with you has proven fruitless, as you just come back with more non-answers and pedantic assholishness about how no one could possibly be as smart as you.
But you refuse to address a single point. And then you have the full of shit response to pretend that we never brought up the language in the bill?
I'm sick of you being full of shit and everyone pretending to be nice about it. It was time to call you out for what you are: full of shit.
You've had years on the site to stop being full of shit. You've refused. So now I'll call you out as such. Sorry if your sensitive eyes can't take it.
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I am also not informed about the circumstances associated with the two names you mention, but the fact extradition is involved strongly suggests that there is much more to each of the stories than simply the US trying to enforce its laws through questionable means.
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It's a big controversy over there because it made people aware of the horrible and probably illegal treaty that was signed and how the US intended to use it.
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As I've studied copyright law, the fact is the USTR uses its 301 report to criminalize countries that don't use copyright law akin to what industry specialists in the US would want. This becomes a large problem when copyright law runs counter to what people in that country want. Brazil's copyright law has been "reinforced" for two decades now. However, it has not been taken off the 301 list and the copyright enforcement has had a very negative affect. There is now a large black market for entertainment, where movies that were once $10 USD are now $100 as an example. What copyright does is enforce monopolistic pricing, considering the price of the seller only, instead of the free market and what people would pay for a product.
As I've noted elsewhere, piracy seems to find the right price for goods and natural scarcities, whereas copyright brings an artificial scarcity into the market. By allowing the market to decide the prices for goods and services, we would be a lot better off with more goods and products to fit various people on different levels.
I am also not informed about the circumstances associated with the two names you mention, but the fact extradition is involved strongly suggests that there is much more to each of the stories than simply the US trying to enforce its laws through questionable means
The best place to look at Griffith's story. This is before the CFAA and it's rather ironic that he's charged with a crime and locked up in the US for 4 years without ever having been in the US to commit a crime.
Richard O' Dwyer was the head admin for TVShack.net. Basically he linked to copyrighted material on his site, and ICE is using Operation In Our Sites to extradite him. In a nutshell, the US is trying to use US copyright law to apply in the UK, similar to what SOPA and PIPA are supposed to do. If you need more info, Mike has a write up here. The UK discusses it here. And finally his mother writes about it here
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