Congrats, US Government: You're Scaring Web Businesses Into Moving Out Of The US
from the destroying-business dept
The federal government has been paying lip service to the idea that it wants to encourage new businesses and startups in the US. And this is truly important to the economy, as studies have shown that almost all of the net job growth in this country is coming from internet startups. Thankfully some politicians recognize this, but the federal government seems to be going in the other direction. With the JotForm situation unfolding, where the US government shut down an entire website with no notice or explanation, people are beginning to recognize that the US is not safe for internet startups.Lots of folks have been passing around this rather reasonable list of activities for US-based websites:
Today's sysadmin todo list:What's amazing is the "what's the big deal?" attitude the government has taken to all of this. For most of us, this situation is shocking. The US government should never be able to flat out shut down a business with no notice or explanation, only to say "sorry" a couple days later. It's done this in the past and insisted that it would be more careful in the future. So far, it doesn't appear to be living up to that promise. While these may be "mistakes," the wider impact should be frightening to federal officials. They're now actively scaring startups away from US businesses at a time when they should be doing exactly the opposite.
0. Get corporate membership with EFF.
1. Identify all applications with user-generated content.
2. Move all associated domains to a non-US based registrar.
3. Migrate DNS, web serving and other critical services to non-US based servers.
4. Migrate yourself to a non-US controlled country.
I'm sorry for US sites and users. Your government is hell-bent on turning the internet into a read-only device like TV, easily regulated and controlled. The population will be required to sit quietly and keep their eyes glued on the screen so they don't miss the ads, with any infringers deemed terrorists and pedophiles and thus deserving of summary punishment by DHS squads.
Hopefully the internet will route around the damaged segment, and the rest of us can continue to enjoy the amazing interactivity it has brought our society.
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Filed Under: censorship, entrepreneurship, seizures, startups, takedowns
Companies: jotform
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I have an idea for a law
This would also mean that no country can abruptly seize a domain name. Any country that violates this will automatically have all of their domains seized until they relinquish the domains they seized. Also the politicians and/or agency heads/managers that made the call to seize it will be publicly flogged... and that will be transmitted on the internet.
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The problem with Antarctica would be getting power there...
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Re: I have an idea for a law
As long as there are governments that consider "information" or "content" to be dangerous, we'll be dealing with this.
That includes (but not limited to) the following:
Terrorist communication
National security secrets
Child pornography
Religious beliefs
Hate speech
Anti-government speech
Copyrighted material
Bomb and weapon-making information
etc.
If you stand for unfettered freedom-of-speech and information sharing, you must also be capable of accepting much of the above.
Personally, I think the above examples of information are not nearly as dangerous as some make them out to be - I'd rather live in a world where global transparency and honesty is more important than my personal safety - we stand a better chance of surviving the future that way.
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Re: Re: I have an idea for a law
I've used up the first one...
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It is quickly coming to the point that all of us that feel that way need to stand up and show it. Standing up on this issue is going to take great risk to our personal safety but I personally am willing to die before I give up all my rights.
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Re: Re: Re: I have an idea for a law
Anecdotally, this was part of the risk the people who fought for their independence was willing to take. Even more, the people protesting right now are risking their safety to fight for their rights.
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Re: Re: Re: I have an idea for a law
This is a global phenomena that is spreading as social media and web 2.0 expand and allow people to discuss what is occurring in the world. However the governments of the world are only allowing input from corporations and disallowing any input from the public. Combined this is leading to resentment and anger towards every government and many corporations. Eventually it will reach a breaking point, where people say "enough already" and things will change.
For some reason I do not feel sorry for the scum bags ...
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doesn't matter
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Tool #2: The ability to seize domains or hardware.
Designerfx is talking about #1.
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Backward
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Religious beliefs
Hate speech
Anti-government speech
Copyrighted material
At least in the US, these are all legal. For the moment.
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Considering my exit strategy now...
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Re: Re: I have an idea for a law
Wild to know that Neo-nazis organizations can use those proposed anti-piracy laws to get US taxpayer's to pay for their operations, and also hurt the US government as well.
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Re: Re: I have an idea for a law
On my world the government fears its people, not the other way around. And due process and justice still exists in full force. Here the government actually honors things such as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights instead of openly dancing on the tatters of the documents.
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Re: I have an idea for a law
... that's not to say that life would be easy-peazy, but it would be easiER. And the global economy might actually start to heal.
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Re: I have an idea for a law
We're much better off working on technology efforts and other methods of circumvention to free the web from government control, while at the same time actively fighting legislation like SOPA, PIPA, and ACTA
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Oh, God, no.
> That means no censorship.
Riiight.
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Re: I have an idea for a law
But no, the US Government should not, and should never shut down a website like this...this is becoming the Great Firewall of the US. :(
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Trade sanctions, I think.
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If you want a law, how about an international law that prohibits the idea of intellectual property. The concept is absurd anyway.
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Re: I have an idea for a law
Just take a look a this idea I came up with a few monthes ago. Sorry part is in Spanish, I'm from Spain, but you will find the main reasoning is done in English.
Declare Internet "Intangible cultural Heritage of Humanity"
http://actuable.es/peticiones/declarar-internet-como-patrimonio-cultural-inmaterial-la
Regards
Francisco George
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RE
(did you donate to me?)
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In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
I know silly silly me.
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and then, and then if someone were to break this rule then that has the effect of immediately invalidating it and we can just start fresh... something like that.. oh, oh we can invalidate the government breaking the rule and start that fresh! That's the ticket. Another rule along those lines, near the top.
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It's only "property" when it benefits the powerful. For the rest of us, well ... it's whatever - anything but property. It's the dual system of justice and economics.
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
I need to switch to whatever it is you're smoking these days.
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(that means post a link to verifiable data)
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HOW many jobs has the Entertainment (Hollywood or Nashville) created in the past 10 years?
What about the Big Banks?
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Income for the Movie/Recording industry
The Internet control and/or manages more money worth of Material to US businesses in less than a day that the Music/recording produces in a Year!
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Source: http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/industry/gdpindustry/2011/gdpind10_rev.htm
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Where's the good old paper?
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> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
last year google had 32,000 employees 14 years ago they were an internet startup.
Apple, although not strictly an internet startup, now does most of its business ON the itnernet, 60,000 employees, founded '78, and recently mentioned in congress as a role model for other US businesses.
the point being, some of the world's biggest brands operating online were yesterday's american startups. The US should be fostering an environment for new startups to prosper, not scaring them away.. the damage may not be seen for 10,20,30 years, but by that point the US is already projected to no longer be the #1 global economy.
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They don't see it
They would see it differently if they had to actually go to a brick and mortar store and actually close the doors and lock out customers with no notice, because there was some illegal activity reported at the store.
I know Mike likes to call it censorship, but what happened to Jotform goes way beyond censorship.
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Re: They don't see it
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"The home of liberty must be washed from time to time in the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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Well, we've been ignored. It's not unreasonable to presume that at least some laughter has take place. Next.
Be careful that the home of liberty is not foreclosed on. Those payments must be kept up. That bank takes blood too.
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and such like.
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If the internet becomes one big TV, count me gone. It's the reason I left TV to begin with. I've had it with commercials and the rerun. I won't pay money for such a service.
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Bad now, wait till after cybersecurity law is passed
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Re: Bad now, wait till after cybersecurity law is passed
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Live Well Online
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Re: Live Well Online
Such as ????????
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You're failure to reply clearly shows you also cannot give examples of "American ingenuity"..
Name them of shut the fuck up...
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Re: Live Well Online
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5. Give the US government a reason to take another crack at passing SOPA.
Hiding off shore does not limit the liablity of US citizens. The whole thing is a total fail from end to end.
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Hiding offshore just doesn't work out very well. Ask Kim Dotcom.
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Move your servers out of the U.S., problem solved.
as for citizenship, who wants to be a citizen of the U.S. these days anyway?
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unfortunately.
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Several cyberlockers are blocked to US address' now. I expect to see more of that. I know several others have dropped com/net address'. That's obviously going to become more common.
The good news is that with all this data moving elsewhere, the US government will have a harder time mining it.
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Like you?
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How classy!
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He's really taking the surveillance and spying example set by his paymasters seriously.
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However, what it does allow him to see/know is which comments are yours. The fact that you are nothing but a troll who has a habit of being verbally abusive to everyone on this site, does give him some leeway as far as pointing out which comments are yours or quoting things you've previously stated.
If Mike really were snooping on you and spying and all that jazz, he'd just make it a point to point you out in every article you comment in (which is most).
Think about that before you keep posting such stupidity. He can't out you by name and all that, but he can out you as the specific AC you are. Perhaps if you behave and act like an adult, instead of a troll, he'd show you the courtesy he shows others.
Or to put it in a better manner, "Keep acting like an asshole, you'll get treated like an asshole."
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Actually, while I guess I could have, I recognize that troll by what he says. No spying needed. He identifies himself.
As do you, by the way.
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we'll why not, it's easier than making a point !!! right...
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Yo mama so fat were in her right now.
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Go outside and let the grown-ups have their talk.
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Suddenly, The Freenet Project doesn't look as useless as it did a few months ago.
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Part of the plan
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Daydreams
Turns out, if your expensive college education doesn't net you a good enough job to pay for your expensive college loans--it actually becomes illegal for you to own or use a passport--how about that?
According to the laws as they stand, I'm not allowed to leave the country... what's the correct definition of a "wage slave"?
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I feel for you Lobo. Its a shitty position to be in. Its not like I didn't want to pay. It will get better. Just remember to fill out the forbearance forms when they expire.
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Of course there's always Sealand....
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We need more laws to combat it!
Make it illegal for hurricanes to form! Then we'll go and arrest everyone in Africa for trying to destroy Florida all the time!
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"Let's outlaw random chance! And DNA, too - that sounds dangerous! Oh, and by the way, what can we do to the intelligent people?"
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Feb 17th, 2012 @ 12:11pm
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The US government created the Internet for national security, so that lines of communication throughout the country could survive even a Soviet Nuclear attack.
This isn't the first time the US created it's own enemies. The US government also helped out Osama Bin Laden by giving him weapons decades ago! And I believe Saddam as well, back when they were fighting the Soviet Union instead of us. We all know how well that turned out, even if we did kill them both in the end.
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Seems a bit of a pattern there, doesn't it?
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Oh, wait...and yet the public is the terrorist group stifling democracy?
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"move somewhere else to make a better life."
Yeah, they move here.
If I move to Germany, I will never be a German, if I move to Italy, I will never be and Italian, and if I move to France, I will never be a frenchman, but anyone moves here and they too can be American.
Fucked up as it may be, and be going, I would not trade it for the world.
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I know, screw borders! I say let people rule the world - all the people, all the world. What? Too hard? Too soon?
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probably the real reason why most Americans would not move either.
You might want to look at your own history, and you will find you are allready Italian, german, english, European or asian.
What you most certainly are not is "American"...
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Re: Re: Re: because your racist
As bad as things are in America for a lot of stuff...
Well, you can look to almost any other country...
And it's worse.
They hate immigrants more than we do.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: because your racist
Racism is even a formal part of your US constitution, how many other countries wrote racism into theirconstitutions ?
You know in the US there were still black slaves in the 1960's ?
racism in ingrained and entrenched in your colture.
the comment "they hate immigrants more than we do" is a statement of racism !
and stating "it's bad here, but it's worse everywhere else" is also a statement of racism.
It is not your fault, it's your culture, it is just the way americans are brought up and educated.
Most if not all other countries are far more multi-culturaly tolerent generally than the average American.
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Also: Slavery in the 1960s...heh. You're off by about 100 years, cat.
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Most if not all other countries are far more multi-culturaly tolerent generally than the average American.
And we're the prejudiced ones?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: because your racist
the sterotypical bad american tourist is always going on about how everything back home is better (even when that is measurably untrue).
most streotypes have their Origins in the real world... the source of this one is probably a contributing factor.
also, a problematic mix of the US public and government seem to confuse 'patriotism' with 'blind fanaticism'. that doesn't help anything.
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Can't leave: 50%
Don't want to leave, good money, friends etc: 40%
Could care less: 6%
Don't understand the question: 3%
Designing this: 1%
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there are ALOT of ex-pat Americans, throughout the world, alot in Australia, and they have next to NO trouble immigrating. (assuming they have some stills).
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it's bigger than Europe.
that much land area under one government is Always going to end up having issues just due to the practical issues of running it.
'cept maybe russia and china, in most parts of the USA you've got to go further just to GET to the border than you do anywhere else to hop several countries.
(if this is less coherant than it could be... well.. it's after 7am and i've not yet slept.)
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emigration
I would say the reason americans don't emigrate is that they are subjected to cradle-to-grave propaganda designed to keep them dumb, docile and under control.
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and don't forget...
The web is maturing towards more interconnectivity, not less. Perhaps the governments will realize this someday when a takedown ripple affects THEIR business.
BTW, starting the list at 0 shows a REAL bithead at work. Genius!
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I suspect by "almost all" here you mean "almost 100%", which actually means something very different and is very misleading.
The problem is that it's also true that 98% the net job growth was from the non-tradable sector of the economy, especially government and health care, but equally meaningless. The issue is that 98% sounds like "almost all", but in fact it could be a tiny portion of the total new jobs if there were big enough job losses in other industries (and another faster growing industry might even account for, say, 150% of the net new jobs).
See this blog post by a mathematician about this issue for a better explanation with more examples.
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See, to them, the internet is either A: used for piracy and not much else or B: doesn't really exist.
Hollywood doesn't get technology, at all. Go watch CSI or Law and Order episodes where they use the net...
"Oh, we found out who he was because he was a Hockey fan online."
Seriously? That's how they do it?
Yeah, they don't care, they don't understand, why would they report on it?
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you cannot list other sources for factual information that Murdoch and FOX ?
I live in Australia, and I watch daily your PBS news program, they appear to be very balanced, and accurate with their coverage of news and events.
Do you get that in America ? or are you forced to watch FOX news ?
Even our local regional news covers any major events that are occuring in the United States, and world wide.
Im am sure in our little backwater of Australia I can be kept well informed of events in the US, and have available news programs from all over the world.
So I have to wonder why or how you can claim you are so uninformed because you live in America ?
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and the people responsible for it being that way want to force the same model on the rest of us.
worrisome, no?
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it reminds me of "the abolition of stupidity" from the Illuminanti Papers.
Where he talk about keep Americans stupid (uninformed) because otherwise they ask too many questions!
Dont want you citizens thinking for yourselves.
But in the age of the internet, everyone should be able to gain accurate, and UNBIASED summaries of events, based on actual facts.
Not someone opinion, and is usually the case for site such as this one.
People want and need facts to form their own opinion, but in the US it is the opinion that comes first. You are not allowed to infer your own opinion based on the available facts.
Look at this site, perfect example, Masnick filters and 'refactors' the facts, and provides his readers with his opinion. He tells you what to think.
So Masnick and techdirt are perpetuating the same principle that your Government has employed, "keep em stupid and happy". and on NO account, let them THINK for themselves.
That is why a great deal of the time I am against the way Masnick conducts his web site, and how he puts his opinion of that of facts.
This culture of having someone else think for you, has led the US down a path where they have given up on using intelligence for progress.
In US terms, you've gone from being the nerd, to the joc, to the playground bully.
And it is the fault of your government, your media, and people like Masnick,
Once again, masnick does not want to keep you informed of the facts, he wants to keep you informed of his opinion of the 'factoids' he has dug up. He does not want you to form your own opinion, or to even think about the issues. NO, he wants to you dumbly consume his opinion and releave you of the necessity to think or form your own opinion.
This 'dumbing' down of Americans is reflected in your massive declines in manufacturing, technology, science, health care.
It does appear that the majority of Americans do not even know much about what is happening in America, let along the rest of the world. Whereas, most other countries are far less insuler, we are far more aware of events throughout the world. And we fully understand that most Americans have little or not interest or understanding of other countries, or cultures..
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If you want you can go find another website that states opinions that are the exact opposite. Those of us who read Tech Dirt like it the way it is.
Go start your own website and spout your own opinions. I'm sure you would find followers who like it too.
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I (sadly) tend to agree with your comments otherwise.
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what is your 'major news outlet' ? Please please dont say "techdirt" HAHAHAHA....
Do you seek news ? ie do you actually make an effort to find a source of unbiased new covering the events you are interested in ?
Or do you expect to be 'spoon fed' your news, like someone telling you what to think and how to feel, forming some opinions for you to use in conversation?
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Expecting to be spoon-fed news is exactly what I'm decrying here, by the way. I'm not sure why you'd expect that I want that myself.
There is no such thing as a single source of reliable news. The only way to go is to get news from a variety of sources, and don't believe a word of it until enough time has gone by that the accuracy can be discerned -- and eventually, it can be.
I get my news from a variety of sources. I ignore sources that have unquestionably proved themselves to be unreliable -- this includes nearly all US news sources. But even the ones which are largely reliable cannot be trusted without question. You still need multiple sources of independent reporting.
This problem with news isn't even a question of bias. I've been on the inside of a number of major news stories reported in US outlets that had no political or social controversy about them. In every single case, even the most basic facts of the stories weren't just wrong, but ridiculously wrong. I'm not talking about vapid TV news, I'm talking about news reported by respected newspapers. This is a fundamental problem with news nowadays: it contains little-to-no actual journalism.
News should always be read with this in mind.
TV news is even worse -- it is more like anti-news, as often you are left more ignorant than when you started, but believing that you are informed.
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oh wait _
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Post WW2 it's been mostly downhill....
when you are over $10 tillion dollars down to china, (and have given up on your manufacturing industry) you are screwed......... !!!!!
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Petition
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/stop-harassing-companies-jotform-they-ar e-scaring-us-businesses-using-us-web-services-costing-jobs/BV02RmfS
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Migrate yourself to a non-US controlled country.
Where is that place? The place where the US Gestapo cannot enter and pillage at will? Russia? China?
I feel safer already. (snark)
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Re: Migrate yourself to a non-US controlled country.
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Less businesses in the US = less tax money going to the US government - the same government that killed 100k Iraqi civilians in retaliation for 9/11, and the same government that thinks it rules the world and forces it's crazy copyright laws on other nation.
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Yes. There are other injustices in this whole mess. There are other injustices in the entire world, but for sake of brevity we rely on an implied understanding that if a community is against the actions of a corrupt state, they're against the existence of corruption, not the actions alone.
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We didn't pay for that with tax revenue, we borrowed the money. So that isn't really related.
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Think Of It As a Loyalty Filter
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can't tell if sarcasm...
or just stupid.
(seriously, anywhere but the US, that last line would give it away as sarcastic. there? not so much.)
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The user name should help you out there.
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except he left off "non-whites" as well on his list..
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they create and try to create...
As long as the people are diligent in stopping them hopefully we have a fighting chance. But we should never turn our backs on them. Because they are or could turn into backstabbers.
As far as business is concerned I guess it is time for the business sector to have their own revolt. Gov never has liked anyone going against their grain. They like robots, they like followers not leaders. They hate fighters even if it is a fight with a pen.
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Government & normality
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When Darryl agrees with you, you know you're in trouble.
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Referring to me, or Darryl? If you're referring to me, feel free to look at my profile, and read the posts I wrote. I do not troll.
If you're referring to Darryl... then never mind.
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Except that they have been shutting down domains of people who have not broken any law.
Exhibit A: Jotform. Absolutely nothing whatsoever that they did was unlawful in any way, shape, or form. Yet their domain was still shut down.
If you can get shut down when you haven't done anything wrong, of course you're going to go somewhere else. It's hardly rocket science.
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Advice
As someone who has been in the Internet business from the beginning with a number of startups under my belt and who "migrated myself to a non-US controlled country" (East and SE Asia) 25 years ago I would offer my the following formula for happiness:
1. Set up your company outside of the US.
2. Don't keep a bank account in the same country that your company is in.
3. Don't have customers in the same country that your country is in or where your bank account is.
4. Don't live in the country where your company, bank account or customers are.
5. Don't live in the same time zone as your in-laws.
I live in Thailand (for 13 years now) and have a company in Singapore. We are opening companies in Laos this year then Cambodia and then Burma over the next two years. My Bank Accounts are in Hong Kong. I try to find customers in any country other than those listed above, and the States.
Bandwidth is better out here than in most places in the States. And hardware is cheaper because you're buying closer to the source. And as long as you aren't living in Singapore, Hong Kong or Toyko, the cost of living is far cheaper than in the States.
This is not as difficult as it might seem. It's great living out here, and I would encourage everyone to do the same.
BTW our latest startup is an infrastructure for the semantic Web and about as cutting edge as you could hope for, so don't whine about how you can only do your startup in Silicon Valley. The future is here, not in the States.
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Obama not mentioned
Democrats supported SOPA more than Republicans, Reid wants to reintroduce it under a different name, but it's so vital to elect Democrats, right?
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Democrats supported SOPA more than Republicans, Reid wants to reintroduce it under a different name, but it's so vital to elect Democrats, right?
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Not really. Prior to the blackouts, support was about even on both sides of the aisle. Plus, the only two politicians who participated in the blackouts (Earl Blumenauer and Anna Eshoo) are both Democrats.
IP laws are, sadly, one area of politics where the Democrats and Republicans are both equally insane.
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Congrats, US Government:
Music + Download = Broke
Music + Download = Parents will not let the kid buy it.
Music + Download = Greedy (This one depends since you can pretty much listen to anything on youtube and ad free if you use a blocker" So if you block ads is it the same as download it illegally from a torrent or fs locker. I mean for all technical reasons blocking the ad = your view did not pay them. I've not seen a ad on youtube in years. Same with hulu since I bypass them also. If I wanted ads I would go watch tv.
Now lets classify some of the shit that does add up to the definition of some of the other things listed.
Download/Upload + Inappropriate images/video of kids = PEDOPHILE
Sending Emails/Chats of plans to overthrow a government = Terrorist
Buying stuff to make a bomb = Terrorist
Using violence to promote your cause = Terrorist
Using the government to pass laws to strip people of freedoms = Terrorist
Using comparisons of unrelated topics to cause fear to promote new laws = Terrorist
Demanding Internet service providers to scan all content for copyright breaches = Terrorist
BTW GJ Euro for tell them HELL NO!
Even considering these laws forcing millions to protest is a act of terrorism. We have better things to do than have to protest your shit that should've never been brought up in the first place.
Ways to end file sharing by me. "Do not take me serious on this lol"
Least effective to most.
1. Pass your laws to censor the internet.
This might stop some of it but there are plenty ways around all that. What effect will it have on us?
A. Violent protest/Governments Overthrown. "Not the way to go but such laws and the reverse progression they would cause is seriously going to piss people off"
B. A insane budget will be needed to cover cost. "Making us more broke and closer to a massive collapse"
C. Other companies demanding their products not be shared either. This could include items simple as a hammer or giving someone a ride to work."Why? Because sharing is sharing and if you loan someone a hammer you could potentially be costing black n decker billions in hammer sales."
D. Militarization & Police states. "They have to be sure you're not going to loan the guy next door some sugar or whatnot."
2. Make the laws passed punishable by death.
This is probably going to scare most people beyond ever downloading again after a few people get the char for downloading some Johnny Bravo.
3. Kill the internet.
It's going to be back to bootlegged dvds now.
3.1 Kill dvds.
It's going to be back to bootlegged vhs now.
3.2 Kill all technology.
It's back to forged chiseled rock pr0n for us now.
The point is it will never be stopped.. If it can be shared I can guarantee at one point or another it will be. It can be a movie some sugar a hammer your car some smokes a cd or whatever. You do not hear black n decker bitching because someone is loaning the neighbor a drill.
If I watch a shitty movie they will not give me my money back unless I had a gun, but then I would be imprisoned for 30 years for my 8$ ticket. If I buy something from Wal-Mart and it was a piece of shit they will give me a refund with little question.
My name is Drew
I refuse to spend my money on movies or music.
I refuse to watch movies or music anymore.
I've not seen a movie or used my ipod since Jan.
I'm one person and my few bucks I've been saving up I'm actually using it for activities that requires more effort than picking up a remote.
It might not seem like much but if enough of us do it they will change their minds on what should be done.
Like this message? Like your freedoms?
If so that's great! You can buy a copy of this message from me for $4.99 but you better act fast this offer is limited while supplies last. LOL sorry could not help myself there but seriously post it somewhere ans fight them sobs!
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while supplies last. LOL sorry could not help myself there but seriously post it somewhere >>>>ans
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FUD
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