My Bloody Valentine's Kevin Shields On Reissue Delays: 'Sony Hid Our Master Tapes'

from the inevitable-'artist-signed-a-contract'-trolling-in-3...2... dept

Wed, May 2nd 2012 12:40pm — Tim Cushing

Shoegaze legend My Bloody Valentine has never been mistaken for a prolific band. With their last album (Loveless) having been released over two decades ago (1991 to be exact), anyone who's been holding their breath waiting for a followup has probably been revived enough times that friends and family are considering adding a DNR order to their living will.

Now, at long last, there are signs of life. On May 7th, Sony Records is set to release remastered versions of MBV's two full albums and several EPs [exclamation points!]. Not only that, but MBV co-founder Kevin Shields is strongly hinting at an actual new My Bloody Valentine album [more exclamation points, tempered with a "we've heard this before over the last 20 years, but still..."!].

While the new remasters will be appreciated, it's a project that's been in the works since 2004. Most of those familiar with Kevin Shields' perfectionism (the obsessiveness that saw the band go through 19 recording studios and nearly as many producers while recording Loveless, nearly bankrupting Creation Records in the process) probably chalked up this extra-long delay to excessive amounts of knob twiddling. But in an interview with Pitchfork, Shields points out that this time it wasn't him:

The [remastering] process actually started in 2001, when we managed to come to an agreement with Sony, who inherited us from Creation. Part of the Sony deal was that I wanted all of the EPs made into one package because, back in 2001, you could get the albums pretty easily but not the EPs. So it was basically a compilation of all the EPs, and that was it.

Then we decided to do Isn't Anything and Loveless as well-- if we're gonna remaster [the EPs], we should remaster everything. In 2002, I tried to start working on it, but the studio that had the tapes, Metropolis Studios, lost them; the analog multi-tracks were all missing for a year. Only after I started threatening to get Scotland Yard involved did they magically, suddenly reappear. The true story is as yet to be determined, but we'll fight that one out in the near future.

Tapes going missing isn't completely unheard of. When bands lie dormant for years at a time, the labels generally don't place a premium on keeping everything sorted out, especially when they can do things like issue faux-remasters by pressing the "+Loud" button while the CD is in the tray. Shields points out that Warner (who handles American distribution) did exactly that when issuing supposed vinyl "remasters" in 2003:

For example, in America, Warner Bros. licensed Loveless and Isn't Anything to Plain Records, and they basically just ripped [the audio] off the CD and put it on vinyl [in 2003]. They did an awful, terrible job. It was done without my permission, and the sound quality was 100% wrong. It was a rip off to anyone who bought it. But I didn't know anything about it until they were in the shops. We actually got an injunction against it being imported into the UK at the time because it was technically a bootleg but, in America, Warners operate under their own law, so it might have been slightly legal in the United States.

But Shields states that the missing master tapes wasn't the result of simple oversight:

The contract we did in 2001 basically gave me ownership of the tapes, and then the Sony regime that existed when that contract was signed left. And when the new regime came in, the tapes disappeared. That was relevant because even though I was the owner, it would only revert back to me if I remastered from the original tapes-- if the tapes were gone, I couldn't remaster from them and hence I couldn't ever own them.

[Fun note: Pitchfork asked Sony to comment on this and got this smiley chunk of PR spam in reply: "We have really enjoyed working on these hugely iconic re-issues with Kevin, and can't wait for the release." We know this isn't true because no one enjoys working with Kevin Shields. (HAHAHA ONLY SRS. 19 studios! Thousands of pounds!!! Engineers not being allowed to listen to vocal takes!!!?!)]

So, keeping the tapes away from Shields meant preventing him from reclaiming control of his band's output or being compensated for any interim sales. In fact, despite continued interest in My Bloody Valentine's catalog, the band is still operating in the red:

Also, you don't get paid if you don't own it-- you know, we've never been paid one penny from the United States from any of the records we've ever made. In the record company's world, we're always in debt. But the strange part of the story is Loveless alone sold enough copies in its first year to put us out of debt. But somehow Warners have managed to create a situation where, hundreds of thousands of records down the line, we're still in debt. That's why the compilations aren't coming out on Warner Bros. They're extremely in breach of contract as well at the moment.

Despite all of this, Shields remains largely pragmatic about this situation. It's not that it isn't unfair or stupid or flat out ugly. It's just that it isn't uncommon:

I'm no victim here-- this is just the way it is for everybody. It's a bit like being in the middle of a battlefield and getting shot in the arm and going, "Why me?" I mean, to put it very, very, very simply: The corporate system is fully psychopathic, and any creative people who enter into business with any of these organizations come up against a lifetime of issues. You just deal with it as you go along. It'll keep on happening until people reorganize the organizations.

Shields expands on this, pointing out that this two-decade gap between the original albums and the reissues could have been a lot shorter, if there had been any sort of cooperation from the labels involved.

Well, the organizations are [psychopathic], but probably 70% of the individuals in them are decent people. But a significant controlling minority have no empathy. They don't give a shit. If you put them in a situation where they can't make any decision but one that is in your favor, they will-- but that can take years. That's the game. Most people just give up with time and go, "I'm a victim." The only reason I've got the reputation for delays and spending a long time on things is because I just don't stop. We've had incredibly huge obstacles in our way-- no tapes, no royalties, no cooperation on any level-- and we sort it out.

Apparently, this is what it takes do a proper reissue: eight years, two labels, Scotland Yard and Shields' willingness to keep pushing on despite the labels' best efforts to keep him and his music as far apart as possible. I eagerly await the naysayers who will point out that the label system is still the artists' best friend, preferable to self-publishing, Kickstartering, etc. while simultaneously pointing out that "Screw the artists! They signed a contract!" Fun stuff, this cognitive dissonance.

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Filed Under: kevin shields, master tapes, my bloody valentine
Companies: sony, warner bros

93 Comments

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The eejit (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 12:53pm

WHY did Shields involve Scotland Yard again? They probably mixed the tapes up with the latest NotW bulletins at the time.
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PaulT (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 1:19pm

The funny thing is, the optimum time to have rereleased the albums would have been in the middle of this - 2009, where new listeners could have been drawn in by the remake of the film they took their name from... Oh well...

"you know, we've never been paid one penny from the United States from any of the records we've ever made"

I wonder how our trolls will spin this one, though. I'm going to guess it's suddenly going to turn into the "attack the artist cause he's wrong!" day, rather than the "pirates and Spotify are stealing from the poor artists" day it's been so far...
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Glen, 2 May 2012 @ 1:31pm

Re:
I agree. There is no other option than to fall back on the "it's the artist damn fault" line.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 1:46pm

Re:
"I wonder how our trolls will spin this one, though. I'm going to guess it's suddenly going to turn into the "attack the artist cause he's wrong!" day, rather than the "pirates and Spotify are stealing from the poor artists" day it's been so far..."

Paul, if you don't read the story and realize that the "artist" comes off as more than a bit of a perfectionist prick , then you really missed something. I have no doubt that he is a lot like you, very demanding, wants it his way, and basically makes a lot of people miserable in trying to get his way.

As for the old "we didn't get paid" saw, I am betting that those monies were paid to another company that their eagle eyed accountant or manager set up for them a couple of decades ago, and then let run out without anyone noticing.

The real history of these stories seems to be people who made their own lives complicated, and then wonder why nobody else can follow along with their convoluted methods of avoiding tax.
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RD, 2 May 2012 @ 1:50pm

Re: Re:
"I wonder how our trolls will spin this one, though. I'm going to guess it's suddenly going to turn into the "attack the artist cause he's wrong!" day, rather than the "pirates and Spotify are stealing from the poor artists" day it's been so far..."

Paul, if you don't read the story and realize that the "artist" comes off as [rest of attack and blame the artist rather than the corrupt system rant clipped]
---------------------------------------------
Yep, you were pretty much right there. Only took 4 comments to get there too.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 1:50pm

I'm glad he has a contract he can dispute for breach. I'm also glad he got PAID advances. And I'm glad he can recover damages for wrong doing.

If the labels treated him like the pirate bay, he's get nothing, have nothing, and never be able to get anything.

There are no contracts, no advances, no payments for bands on The Pirate Bay. So I guess Kevin can't dispute the illegally exploitation of his work there, because the pirate bay don't offer artists contracts or money.

pirate bay = 100% of the artists money

artists on tpb = 0% of the artists money

funny that the same laws that make it possible for artists to seek justice from labels are the same laws you wish to take away from artists, ironic isn't it.
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gorehound (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 1:51pm

I am an Artist and I never had to use 19 Studios to record a Frakkin Record !

I record my tracks with one studio and since I use and own gear myself it is very easy to get a good mix.Even if I did not know what knobs to tweak with the Engineers are great and have good ears or they would not last in the business.

Everytime I read about Bands locking up Studios for a Month to record 2 Songs I just laugh.
I may hate Big Labels but I also have no love at all for demanding, anal, and egotist Musicians.My guys I play or played with have always been honest down to Earth guys just like you or I.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 2:02pm

Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
Maybe you'd like to explain how or where The Pirate Bay is making 100% of the artists' money?

Because you have repeated this comment I'm gonna estimate AT LEAST 20 times today and with no evidence whatsoever to lend it any credibility. And repetition DOES NOT make it a fact, you're deluded belief of that not withstanding.

Not too mention The Pirate Bay does nothing to the artists. It's users however are another story.

And can you link to where PaulT has said let's take away the artists' rights? I'd so love yo read that. Otherwise, it's just another one of your blatantly false statements based on no reality but the one you create in your head.
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Beech, 2 May 2012 @ 2:06pm

Re:
What money are you talking about?! If I were to go to TPB right now and download every file there it would cost me $0 dollars. I suppose you are technically accurate that TPB would get 100% of that, but then again, the artist would have the same 100% of $0.

And why are you trolls comparing TPB to labels all of a sudden? In this case, TPB is treating them BETTER than Warner Bros. TPB gives them nothing for distributing their product (but doesn't make anything off of it). Warner sells tons of product, gives them THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY AS TPB GAVE THEM, then claims the BAND owes THEM money.

So, by troll logic the pirates are actually the good guys here!
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PaulT (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 2:21pm

Re: Re:
So, you did exactly what I said you would. You attacked the character of the artist, do nothing to refute the actual facts being discussed, and you have nothing to refute yet another example of an artist who was no better off under the glorious system to strive to protect "for the artists". Really, you're going to accuse him of tax evasion because he dared question your gods? Do you have a citation for your accusations? Of course not.

"I am betting"

No, you are guessing, based once again on your own half-assed assumptions and biases. Even when it comes from artists and customers, you can't even comprehend that you are wrong. Proof of your claims, or GTFO.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 2:51pm

Re:
Where was that mentioned in the article? Why can't you admit the labels are wrong? ARE THEY WATCHING YOU?!?? BLINK ONCE IF YOU NEED HELP!
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Jonathan, 2 May 2012 @ 3:01pm

Re:
If a band can afford instruments, they can generally afford to build a project studio in a shed, at worst with Kickstarter's help. The only thing the label system offers the artist is promotion, and seeing what gets promoted, maybe that's not a positive thing after all. Otherwise, they are dead weight, just like private health insurers.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 3:16pm

Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
that's funny, 20x's, really? and you are still not getting it then? I guess not... ok, please show me where the pirate bay is paying any artist a penny!

the pirate bay is making 100% of the artists money.

the artists on the pirate bay is making 0% of the artists money.

the artists work is being distributed (illegally) the pirate bay is making money (in millions according to tech crunch) and the artists are getting paid ZERO of this money.

sorry, but you've cornered the market on blatantly false. Of course if you want to show me any of those contracts or payments to artists from the pirate I'd be happy to look at them, citation please!

do you support the pirate bay ripping off artists?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 3:21pm

Re: Re:
"If I were to go to TPB right now and download every file there it would cost me $0 dollars. I suppose you are technically accurate that TPB would get 100% of that, but then again, the artist would have the same 100% of $0. "

how much do you pay google, facebook and youtube? probably zero right? but they're making money right? OMG - It must be the magic money fairies!

Stop it. The pirate bay is making an estimated $4m a year from the the artists work and paying the artists ZERO of that money. You can't really be this uninformed, but it would make sense if you were...

http://techcrunch.com/2008/01/31/the-pirate-bay-makes-4-million-a-year-on-illegal-p2p-file-shari ng-says-prosecutor/
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Keroberos (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 3:37pm

Re: Re:
the "artist" comes off as more than a bit of a perfectionist prick
I know, god forbid that an artist actually cares about how his work is presented to the public instead of just throwing out some crap knowing that their fans will buy it anyway.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 3:46pm

Re: Re: Re:
Paul, what am I suppose to do, ignore that he is a prick, that he has probably hassled and annoyed people all through his career, and then likely gets very pissed off when they don't do what he wants them to do RIGHT NOW?

It's not about attacking his character - his character is a key part of the discussion here.

"Proof of your claims, or GTFO."

I am watching you be a prick, and you ain't nothing compared to this guy. I think it's a good bet.
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John Fenderson (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 3:55pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Paul, what am I suppose to do, ignore that he is a prick, that he has probably hassled and annoyed people all through his career

Yes, because if dealing with a perfectionist prick means that it's OK to do business with them badly, at least half of the business world would grind to a halt overnight.
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John Fenderson (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 3:57pm

Re:
And this story relates to piracy or TPB how, exactly?
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Watchit (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 3:58pm

"We actually got an injunction against it being imported into the UK at the time because it was technically a bootleg but, in America, Warners operate under their own law, so it might have been slightly legal in the United States."

So, apparently it's ok for Hollywood to infringe on other peoples copyrighted material?
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Big Al, 2 May 2012 @ 4:10pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
So? I know I'm a prick when I'm at work (a lot of people have relished telling me this) but I still get paid...
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 4:16pm

Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
I support artists ripping off the Pirate Bay and major labels.
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Ed C., 2 May 2012 @ 4:17pm

Re: Re: Re:
Except the figure is from the prosecution in a case brought by "Warner Bros., Colombia Pictures, 20th Century Fox, Sony BMG, Universal and EMI". When does that lot ever cite legitimate numbers, in a court case no less.

Or to put it in another perspective, they've horded a hell of lot more than 4 million in unpaid dues. And they've been doing so for decades. Yet, I don't see you getting all steamed up about that.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 4:32pm

Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
It's not funny. At all. It's actually a bit annoying. Find a new talking point, present proof/evidence to support your wild claims, or shut the fuck up because we heard you the first 50 times already. Also, would it kill you to use capital letters? If you're going to annoy you might as well be grammatically correct in the process.

The Pirate Bay is NOT making 100% of the artists money. They do not get paid for anything that their site points to and is uploaded by the users of said site.

According to Tech Crunch, huh? So can you link to this article where you read this on Tech Crunch? Or should we just take the word of an Anonymous Coward? And according to, you know, ACTUAL court documents The Pirate Bay WAS NOT making money (at least not in the millions).

And why do you keep asking about contracts from The Pirate Bay? How many times do people have to tell you they are not a label before you get that? Since they are not a label and are not distributing any material or hosting it themselves, they have no reason to have any type of contract with the artists.

Again, the one being blatantly false and intentionally misleading here is you. Everyone else in the other article was willing to present citations to support their statements that shot down each and every one of your moronic comments. You've yet to present even one.

I do not support anyone ripping off artists. But I think before you bitch about The Pirate Bay, you turn that finger around and point it at the labels and the RIAA. You know, the ones who are supposed to be FOR the artists and who have a verifiable history of ripping off the artists by withholding royalties, by completely failing to pay royalties straight up (as was the case in Canada) and who have tried to slip things into laws in the works that would cheat artists out of their ability to reclaim copyright on their own songs. These are the people you should be holding to a higher standard. Because they directly profit off of and withhold millions upon millions upon millions of dollars (all verifiable, through court documents from suits brought forth from artists).

Wait, what am I doing? I just fed the moron. I mean troll. Damnit. I fear my IQ was just lowered to WAY below room temperature from having even read what he wrote. Double damnit.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 4:33pm

Shoulda read the invisible print in the contract!
The label system is still the artists' best friend, and is always preferable to self-publishing, Kickstartering, or working! Stupid artists! They signed the bloody contract! What did they expect?! Money or something? Maybe even promotion?! A ride to the grocery store?! Did their contract say that they were gonna get frickin' sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their frickin' heads?! Or chicks for free?!

Well somebody has to frickin' point out the frickin' obvious here!
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 4:48pm

Re: Re:
... or maybe they could help them record in a facility a little better equipped for recording than "a shed."

I would just *love* to hear the drum tracks being recorded in "a shed." The clarity must be stunning.

There are labels who don't rip off their artists, you know?
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Cowardly Anonymous, 2 May 2012 @ 4:53pm

Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
The Pirate Bay is a freaking search engine. They do not engage in any copying of artists work. Those releasing torrent trackers are the distributors.

As to the aspect of pirating: There is currently no way in the US to pay the artist and receive their music in return. As such, pirating and then granting a donation would actually be better than using the "proper" channels.

Setting aside moral questions for a second, the system is obviously ridiculously broken.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 4:54pm

Re:
It's funny, just before I read this I was thinking about what exactly takes so long for some bands to record. Even Nirvana's Nevermind went waaay long and way over budget (like $100,000 over). I cannot for the life of me figure out what took so long to record twelve relatively simple songs that have the exact same drum sounds and guitar/bass tones on every track.

Or FIFTEEN years for G'n'R.

Even more perplexing is what exactly remastering will improve about MBV records. They're a wall of noise. Are they going to hire Bob Katz to "really bring out the high end of that static white noise"?

Not that I don't enjoy MBV, but I've never thought their recordings needed a remaster. What are they going to do? Turn it down?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 4:55pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
John, my thoughts are that this guy seems to be enough of a pain in the ass that his story doesn't appear to hold water. I would almost think that he might have been somewhat intentionally difficult to deal with, just to try to create this sort of situation. I cannot imagine anyone waiting 8 years on something like this - ask, ask again, ask a third time, file a lawsuit... get it all done in a year. Instead, he played prick for 8 years?

It doesn't make much sense, does it?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 5:18pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
>John, my thoughts are that this guy seems to be enough of a pain in the ass that his story doesn't appear to hold water.

Yet you deem it suitable to ignore the characters of Chris Dodd, Cary Sherman, Cara Duckworth and Mitch Bainwol when deciding that each download equals a lost sale. Why the double standards from you?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 5:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
long time listener, first time poster:

"It's not funny. At all. It's actually a bit annoying. Find a new talking point, present proof/evidence to support your wild claims, or shut the fuck up because we heard you the first 50 times already. "

truth hurts doesn't it? show me proof evidence that the pirate bay has ever paid an artists or asked their consent?

they have not. prove otherwise.

simple math.

the pirate bay = 100% of the Artists Money
the artists on TPB = 0% of the Artists Money

Fact. Show me where the pirate bay is offering artists a better deal than a label. Tell my why you so aggressively support ripping off artists and your solution to one injustice (labels) is an even GREATER injustice (pirates).
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Modern Chap, 2 May 2012 @ 5:21pm

I searched 6 or 7 torrent sites and couldn't find anything called "Record Company". Is it ancient Greek or something?

Oh, and I found out that 'Sony' appears to be a very commonly used code word for some of the worst swearing I've ever come across.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 5:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
no, the pirate bay is ripping off artists, why do you support artists getting ripped off?

the pirate bay makes 100% of the money illegally exploiting the artists work, and pays the artists 0%.

maybe you missed this? lost. illegal. jail.

http://techland.time.com/2012/02/01/pirate-bay-founders-lose-supreme-court-appeal-going-to-jail/

so again, tell me why you support ripping off artists? it's ok, that's your opinion. you can want to rip artists off, it just makes you a hypocrite and worse than the labels you ridicule. but you can admit it, just say it, you hate artists and you support them getting ripped off.

Go ahead, it's ok, you can be anti-artist. It's just the internet. Speak freely.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 5:29pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
can you show me how much money the pirate bay has paid artists? you can't, because the pirate bay rips off artists.

why do you support artists getting ripped off?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 5:31pm

Re: Re:
the pirate bay has never paid kevin a penny. they've been illegally exploiting his masters for years and have never asked consent or made a single payment. the pirate bay are ripping off my bloody valentine.

why do you support the pirate bay ripping off kevin shields?
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Ripped, 2 May 2012 @ 5:38pm

Majors and indies
As someone who's signed both major and indie contracts, I can tell you it's very hard to get paid, even if you keep a tight budget and don't allow a major to rack up costs against your royalties. I've gotten checks from small European labels who liscensed our music before I ever saw a penny from a major. As for indies, even the most honest of them typically have cash flow problems. They need to produce new music to keep distributors happy and spend any available income making that happen.
MP3 and home studios have helped immensely, but I doubt the major labels will ever turn into an artist friendly business. They're too entrenched in their ways.
As for Pirate Bay and the like, most artists will tell you they rarely make money off of records, so I doubt they care if some ppl download their music for free.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 5:51pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Paul, what am I suppose to do, ignore that he is a prick, that he has probably hassled and annoyed people all through his career,

And yet, you seem to expect us to do this for you...
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Chargone (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 6:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
....

you've been reading this site for 'a long time' and STILL manged to come out with that crap?

....

I'm pretty sure you're why this world has so many nice deep lakes...

good for jumping in.
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Chargone (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 6:31pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
...

i started writing a long piece with logic and maths and such.

then i realised you're either an idiot or a complete arse and would just ignore/fail to understand it either way, so you get this instead.

pffbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt!
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Chargone (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 6:32pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
... also, Beech apparently made the same argument i was going to, better, so never mind.
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Chargone (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 6:36pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAAH.

seriously, are you a politician or record exec? they're the only occupations i can think of where such a mix of ability at ignorance, idiocy, misdirection, and blatant lieing is an asset rather than getting you fired for incompetence.

(wow, you're pressing buttons wonderfully today. normally i make a snarky comment based on the post itself or a several paragraph ramble that fails to stay on topic that starts off being about my experience with similar stuff. today, i'm actually responding to the trollishness.

either that means you're very good at it or it means i need more sleep.)
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Chargone (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 6:38pm

Re: Re: Re:
when the heck did the pirate bay get access to his master tapes?

and if you Don't mean the tapes, and instead mean the record labels (his masters, you said) then all i can say is: good on them.
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Chargone (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 6:39pm

Re: Re:
sounds like it might improve it :P
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Chargone (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 6:40pm

Re:
or at least, one could be forgiven for thinking so and there's nothing he can really do about it.
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Ed C., 2 May 2012 @ 6:47pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
can you show me how much money the labels haven't paid their artists? you can't, because they rip off artists.

why do you support artists getting ripped off?

/FTFY

BTW, I never said I supported TPB. Just pointing out that the labels constantly give bad figures to everyone-the public, the government, judges and juries, and their artist.
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Ed C., 2 May 2012 @ 6:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
can you show me how much money the labels haven't paid their artists? you can't, because they rip off artists.

why do you support artists getting ripped off?

/FTFY

BTW, I never said I supported TPB. Just pointing out that the labels constantly give bad figures to everyone-the public, the government, judges and juries, and their artist.
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Cowardly Anonymous, 2 May 2012 @ 8:23pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
Oooh... a court case.

The court has found that by using Pirate Bay�s services there has been file-sharing of music, films and computer games to the extent the prosecutor has stated in his case. This file-sharing constitutes an unlawful transfer to the public of copyrighted performances.

A pretty clearcut case of a bad ruling.

So basically, if someone, really anyone, uses your service to distribute copyrighted materials, you are magically responsible, according to this ruling. Yeah, not seeing how being a third-party that is held to be liable under such ridiculous reasoning (really, you could swap out any ISP just as easily) is the same off ripping off an artist.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 10:14pm

Re: Re: Re:
And there are customers who don't "pirate", you know? But guess what, they get treated like criminals anyway...
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G Thompson (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 11:12pm

Re: Re:
I never thought being a "perfectionist prick" was unlawful whereas dealing in a manner that is misleading, dishonest, and breaches contractual relations actually can be unlawful.

Here's a clue: If you have annoying customers or clients it is still your legal obligation to perform your duties to them as best practices dictate, otherwise you will be held up as an example of what NOT to do by all and sundry (and the courts)

Whodathunkit hey
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 12:35am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
truth hurts skippy, suck it up.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 12:36am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
or more accurately, you read what you wrote and (rightfully) realized you actually don't have a point.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 12:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
da nile is not just a river in Egypt. two words, JAIL TIME.

why do you support artists getting ripped off by the pirate bay?
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 12:39am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
why is your solution to one injustice (labels) an even greater injustice (piracy)?
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 12:40am

Re: Majors and indies
and here's a bunch of artists who disagree with you: https://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/roll-call-musicians-for-an-ethical-internet/
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RadialSkid (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 12:58am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
If it were a "fact" that the pirate bay makes 100% of "artists money," then no artist in the world would have a cent to their name, and the Pirate Bay would have every penny they ever earned.

Is that a "fact?"
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RadialSkid (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 1:03am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
The people you're "white-knighting" for aren't artists. And I for one am against them completely. I'm for whatever kills them off quickest.
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RadialSkid (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 1:07am

Re: Re: Re:
I would just *love* to hear the drum tracks being recorded in "a shed." The clarity must be stunning.

Depending on the quality of the shed and the recording equipment, it can indeed be stunning. Wave of the future, bee-otch.
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RadialSkid (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 1:08am

Re: Re: Re:
BUT COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!
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PaulT (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 1:15am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Paul, what am I suppose to do, ignore that he is a prick"

Well you and your AC brethren (assuming it's not just you being an obsessed fool in other threads) seem to expect me to accept your lies and do just that when you act like it (100% of the time). Why is it different for someone who bothers to identify himself before acting like that?

"It's not about attacking his character - his character is a key part of the discussion here."

No, it's not. Unless you can prove that his character had a direct bearing on the issues being discussed, his interpersonal skills are irrelevant. Feel free to cite such evidence, else all you're doing is attacking yet another artist because he dares to speak out - as you do in every such thread. Oh, but of course, if a politician or label head is an asshole, or the manager of U2 is being an idiot, we're not allowed to call them on that, right, because that would be wrong?

Double standards - your favourite dish.

"I am watching you be a prick, and you ain't nothing compared to this guy. I think it's a good bet."

Ad hominem and doubling down on idiocy again, while refusing to give any reason to give credence to your claims. Aren't you bored of this yet?
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PaulT (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 1:20am

Re: Re:
It doesn't. Read some of the other recent thread - regardless of what the story's about, he's copying and pasting this stupidity in every one. Presumably because this site dared run a story about yet another musician using it to his advantage and profit...
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RadialSkid (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 1:26am

Re: Re: Majors and indies
Yeah, great list of so-called "artists" there...

-----------

BONO: Horrible and obnoxious.

LL COOL J: 15 minutes of fame over for 20 years.

THE BLACK KEYS: Weak.

ELTON JOHN: Irrelevant for 20 years and counting.

EMINEM: BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

CAKE: Irritating '90s hipster crap.

ZACK HEMSEY: Who?

DON HENLEY: Sucks.

PRINCE: Chaka mad. Chaka real mad.

DAVID LOWERY: Who?

TRENT REZNOR: I'll grant you that one, but the quote from him on the site runs pretty counter to everything else I've read from him in the past five years.

DISTURBED: CHOPPY VOCALS AND POINTLESS NU-METAL ANGER!

THE GRATEFUL DEAD: Jerry Garcia's been dead for a long time now.

LOGAN LYNN: Who?

RANDY BACHMAN: "Get off my lawn, you darned kids!"

LUPE FIASCO: Who?

LILLY ALLEN: I've only heard of her because the righteous bitch-slapping Dan Bull gave her...and he told her off far better than I ever could.

TAIO CRUZ: Who?

-----------

So there you have it. Straight from a confrontational dick with no love for copyright or those who worship it. These people (with a hesitant exception for Reznor) are not artists.
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B Pickel (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 1:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
�what am I suppose to do, ignore that he is a prick, that he has probably hassled and annoyed people all through his career, and then likely gets very pissed off when they don't do what he wants them to do RIGHT NOW?�

You know, so what if he was such a prick, the record labels didn�t have to keep working with him, there was nothing forcing them to keep putting up with his personality.
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The eejit (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 1:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
I would, but I already sucked up a n ocean. The truth might make me vomit.
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The eejit (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 1:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
And you CLEARLY did. Or you weouldn't keep hovering around being a condescending dismissive prick.

So, basically, are you Kevin Shields in disguise?
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The eejit (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 1:49am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Because the labels are made up thieves, liars and criminals at the highest echelons. And that is a documented fact.
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The eejit (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 1:51am

Re: Re: Re: Majors and indies
Well, they're all "musicians", but the only artists on there are Eminem, Trent and Lily Allen. And out of those, two have successfulkly sued their labels, and the other one is a gobshite.
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blakey, 3 May 2012 @ 3:39am

Re: gorehound and your lack of love at all for demanding, anal, and egotist Musicians
thats a shame. Its a shame you cannot allow for different types of people who work in different ways. Some people have made wonderful records in a day, others can take years. What matters is what comes out at the end of it. If MBV need to take years and a million studios let them. They have made 2 beautiful records that have influenced a new form of music.
Personally, as i have a job, it takes me about 5 years to finish an album, working 2 or 3 evenings a week, and i have had to record in all sorts of rooms (as studios).
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 4:01am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
He's a pain in the ass so he must be a liar, as well. Sorry. Two don't follow 'A' in that alphabet.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 4:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yeah, these ACs are very bad with knowing anything. For instance, the vocals to "L.A. Woman" by The Doors were recorded entirely in a bathroom. The drums to "When The Levee Breaks" by Led Zeppelin were recorded at the bottom of some stairs. And so on and so forth.

But they like to pretend they know everything about "professional" music. It's pretty hilarious.
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G Thompson (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 4:57am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Majors and indies
Didn't the gobshite also have a 'second hand' upmarket rent for 100 quid per night clothing line too that made her heaps of money and showed her artistic flair in the 'fashion' world?

*snorts* Bwhahahahahahahaha
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The Devil's Coachman (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 5:09am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
The last time someone told me "Suck it up" to my face, they were the ones sucking something. They didn't make that mistake again.
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G Thompson (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 5:13am

Re: Re: Majors and indies
My comment to that site is awaiting moderation. Lets see if it will actually make it past the censors. I'll be happily surprised if it does

[======comment start]
geekhideout
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
May 3, 2012 at 7:09 am

Ethics? really?

Which philosophy of Ethics are you specifically referring too, because each and every one of those artists will have a different interpretation of what they think ethics actually is and I'm quite sure this article shows the author has no clue either.

In fact most of those artists at one time or another would of partaken in consequentialism and deontology, though from their quotes they are not really looking at pragmatism are they?

Also do all these artist actually know you are placing the first 3 paragraphs into their mouths? Based on the concept of ethics gleaned from this article It would be highly unethical to do this without their absolute authority. Wouldn't it?
[comment end=====]
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Bt Garner (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 5:48am

Re: Re: Re: Majors and indies
Odd comment from Trent, who on his own website, has a link to the Pirate Bay for one of his DVDs (Closure).
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 6:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Can you show me how much money TPB has made from other people downloading? I'll tell you they've not made a red cent off of me.
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Samuel Abram (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 8:10am

Re: Re: Majors and indies
I read all that, and nowhere does it say "when" they say those things. They could all have changes of heart, or they could also want to have nothing to do with the agenda of those who want to use copyright as a pretext for governments and private corporations to take control of the internet. Or it could also be the case as with Bono that they're assholes.

Think about it: Even free culture founder Lawrence Lessig has said that piracy (as in illegal downloading) is wrong:

"Piracy," by contrast, is a denial of a choice by a copyright owner. It says to the creator, "I don't care what you want. I am taking what you have created." It doesn't respect the freedom that copyright law gives to the creator. It denies that the law should secure to the creator any such freedom to choose. The only relevant choice in pirate culture is the choice of the pirate to take. Not the choice of the creator to make her work available.

Using the logic of whomever created that blogpost, Lawrence Lessig must be in favor of SOPA, PIPA, ACTA, et al.! Of course he's not. There's a lot of nuance in between "Piracy is a bad thing" and "Everything must be done to stop piracy, damn the consequences."
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PaulT (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 8:35am

Re: Re: Re: Majors and indies
"There's a lot of nuance in between "Piracy is a bad thing" and "Everything must be done to stop piracy, damn the consequences.""

If the shills here were intellectually honest, they'd notice that this is how most people really feel about it. Most of the complaints tend to be about the methods used to try to stop piracy, either because they're ineffective or totally counter-productive, or that they have collateral damage that's totally unacceptable. It's not a question about whether piracy is right or wrong, simply that the methods used to fight it are both ineffective and unacceptable.

For example, I'm totally against DRM on purchases (I feel it has a place in the rental/streaming markets) for various reasons. I feel it fragments and skews the market, it restricts consumer choice both in terms of content and playback device, it can damage machines or privacy in extreme instances and anti-circumvention measures tend to have chilling effects on legitimate scientific and education work. Meanwhile, in reality, once DRM has been circumvented, it doesn't affect pirates. This leads to a situation where it makes pirated products even more attractive than they would be without DRM. Sadly, the more clueless organisations out there think that the likes of SOPA and more draconian DRM restrictions are the answer, and so the vicious cycle continues.

Ask the shills around here, and they will tell you that this somehow all means I "hate artists" or I "defend piracy". Complete rubbish, but I fear they're literally incapable of taking the subtleties and complexities of my actual argument, just as they're incapable of recognising that there may be more to an artist's position on copyright than the random quote they found on Google once.

I mean, look at the AC above. He found a random blog consisting of a bunch of random quotes, some taken from other peoples' blogs, and as far as he's concerned that's all that matters. The Trent Reznor quote in particular is hilarious. Not only does it seem to contradict what we know about Reznor, the link on that quote is to another blog post, from 2006, which doesn't cite its own source for the quotes and the only original text on there is to attack somebody's spelling of their first name and to mock Reznor's supposed words.

THIS is what apparently passes as "proof" in these peoples' eyes, because it reinforces their own expectations, which they are unwilling to discuss lest they be proven wrong. Pretty pathetic.
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Cowardly Anonymous, 3 May 2012 @ 8:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
da nile is not just a river in Egypt. two words, JAIL TIME.

Name: Nelson Mandela.
Name: Rosa Parks.
Name: Galileo.
Name: Joan of Arc.
Name: Jesus of Nazareth.

Justice systems: Not perfect.

Conclusion: "Jail time" is logically insufficient as support for your argument.

Why do you support artists getting ripped off by labels?
Why do you support punishing tool makers for how the tool is used?
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Cowardly Anonymous, 3 May 2012 @ 8:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
bottom of some stairs

Not at all surprising, really. Many stair-cases in public buildings have no carpets and rather well sealed doors for fire escape purposes. Makes them great for acoustics.
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Cowardly Anonymous, 3 May 2012 @ 8:44am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Piracy + donations.

In other words, route around.

Sure, some run off with the free stuff, but the proportion that donates is generally higher than 0.6% (which is apparently all the artist gets out of sales). This suggests that the artist gets more from piracy + donations than selling.

Of course, you have to take into account the amounts donated. Then again, most charity groups and some non charity groups have found that donations net much more than a flat price when the asked price would be low.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 8:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
So if my client is a pain in the ass I should be allowed to steal money from him? Well my profits are going to incease 1000 fold this year.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 9:06am

Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
" the pirate bay is making money "

except all the court cases that show they don't make any money but sure whatever
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 9:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
Oh look the troll uses two ips to be twice as annoying!
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 9:21am

Re: Re: Re:
Sounds to me like they are taking advertisers money not artists.

Also that was what the people suing them claimed they were making the court said it was hogwash.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/02/pirate-bay-big-revenue-claims-fabricated-by-pros ecutors.ars
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 9:23am

Re: Re: Re:
egg cartons are some of the best sound insulation around. Cheap as shit. Well, cheap as eggs i guess.
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John Fenderson (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 9:35am

Re: Re: Re:
why do you support the pirate bay ripping off kevin shields?

I don't support anybody ripping off anybody, and I don't know why you assume I do. However, this story still has nothing to do with piracy or TPB, so your comment remains inexplicable.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 May 2012 @ 12:15pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
I'll answer you, you smug sanctimonious thumbdick. I support TPB because I support anything that damages the legacy labels, you smarmy repugnant twit. Anything that causes their empires of thievery and indentured servitude disguised as a "record deal" to crumble gets 100% of my support, you rotting gooselivered sod. It took TPB, torrenting and every other technological development that you criminally maleficent vampires scapegoat as "piracy" to expose those Mafia-esque labels for what they were, to inspire new up-and-coming artists, the future of the music industry, to explore the virtually limitless new avenues available to them through the new technology, and any clear-thinking human being who ISN'T a babbling earwigged shitfed Kool-Aid drinking raisin-brained lowest-common-denominator putrid soulless imbecile with greed in his bones and bile in his blood and a worrying absence of iodine in his thyroid like yourself should STAND AND APPLAUD THE GIFT THEY HAVE GIVEN THE WORLD. Anything that destroys the labels gets my support, and now that the "Big Four" is the "Big Three," once it becomes the "Big Two," followed by the "Big One," then in no time it will become the "Big Zero," and then, and only then, will the artists cease getting ripped off, because as long as one oily-skinned blackguard in an Armani suit sits behind an impossibly-lacquered desk in L.A. and keeps one musician under his yellowing dermatophyte-riddled thumb, there there is no freedom, and it is open war on the "major label" criminal enterprises. And I support the good guys, you scum-drinking worm.
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Miso Susanowa, 3 May 2012 @ 6:00pm

Please
Please, if you decide to engage in completely out-of-your-ass speculation and make yourself look like a fool, understand that people with experience in the Biz for over 30 years will recognize your idiotic bombast for what it is - the words of a willfully-uninformed troll.
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AzureSky (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 7:59pm

Re: Re: Re: Majors and indies
TRENT REZNOR: the reason this comment and some of the others seem out of character is because they are bullshit or if not are forced comments done to appease their labels.

EMINEM for example, I can see him saying that, with a snarky smart ass smile on his face...
(note: i would however love to see him try and kick somebodies ass...eThug vs FreeThug...ROFL)

dont worry tho, Im sure over time they will get more "big names" to give them quotes they can either take out of context or, like many of these types of quotes over the years, get the lable to make them read from a provided rant.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 May 2012 @ 12:05am

Re:
"This comment has been flagged by the community. Click to un-hide it."

censoring more comments, wow, again, how totally ironically sopa of you... wow, just wow.

#

I'm glad he has a contract he can dispute for breach. I'm also glad he got PAID advances. And I'm glad he can recover damages for wrong doing.

If the labels treated him like the pirate bay, he's get nothing, have nothing, and never be able to get anything.

There are no contracts, no advances, no payments for bands on The Pirate Bay. So I guess Kevin can't dispute the illegally exploitation of his work there, because the pirate bay don't offer artists contracts or money.

pirate bay = 100% of the artists money

artists on tpb = 0% of the artists money

funny that the same laws that make it possible for artists to seek justice from labels are the same laws you wish to take away from artists, ironic isn't it.

#
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Anonymous Coward, 4 May 2012 @ 12:06am

Re:
"This comment has been flagged by the community. Click to un-hide it."

censoring more comments, wow, again, how totally ironically sopa of you... wow, just wow.

#

I'm glad he has a contract he can dispute for breach. I'm also glad he got PAID advances. And I'm glad he can recover damages for wrong doing.

If the labels treated him like the pirate bay, he's get nothing, have nothing, and never be able to get anything.

There are no contracts, no advances, no payments for bands on The Pirate Bay. So I guess Kevin can't dispute the illegally exploitation of his work there, because the pirate bay don't offer artists contracts or money.

pirate bay = 100% of the artists money

artists on tpb = 0% of the artists money

funny that the same laws that make it possible for artists to seek justice from labels are the same laws you wish to take away from artists, ironic isn't it.

#
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Anonymous Coward, 4 May 2012 @ 12:06am

Re:
"This comment has been flagged by the community. Click to un-hide it."

censoring more comments, wow, again, how totally ironically sopa of you... wow, just wow.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 May 2012 @ 1:06am

Re: Re:
>how totally ironically sopa of you...

Again, I specify. Did SOPA allow you to un-hide the seized website when you clicked on it?

This coming from the group of shills who insist that we don't know what SOPA means.
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PaulT (profile), 4 May 2012 @ 1:19am

Re: Re:
You're still not intelligent enough to grasp how this is not censorship are you? Nor that the button's clearly stated function includes flagging trolls. Like you, for instance.

Oh, and if SOPA was as gentle and easily bypassed as the thing you're bitching about, I doubt anybody would have complained about it... but it wasn't, was it?
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Anonymous Coward, 4 May 2012 @ 6:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 2nd, 2012 @ 1:50pm
"I went to teh internets trolling and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"

Please write this on the piece of clothing of your choice as your prize.
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