A Floating Island Of Nerds... Or Just Evidence Of A Broken Immigration System?

from the could-be-both dept

Mon, Jul 9th 2012 5:16am — Mike Masnick

I've been meaning to write about Blueseed for a little while, and I was reminded as News.com has a new article on this "floating metropolis for startups." If you haven't heard about it, it's a plan to basically park a cruise ship in international waters -- twelve miles off the coast of Silicon Valley, and use it as a place where a bunch of foreign workers can help build local startups without having to get a work visa, since the US makes those impossibly hard to get. As the article suggests, this sounds a bit horrifying for those workers, even as the goal is to make the boat as awesome as possible:

The ship will have pools, massage areas, gyms, rock climbing walls, and indoor soccer fields according to Marty. His model is very Google-esque--the fostering of creativity through colors, aesthetics, and food.

But, of course, you're still stuck on the boat. And while there will be ferries back and forth to the mainland, I'm not entirely clear on how those foreign workers get there in the first place.

The more I hear about this effort, the more I'm convinced that it's more about the statement than the plan: the fact that the US continues to have ridiculously restrictive immigration policies for skilled, technology-savvy workers who can and do help create new jobs and build the economy. Instead, we send them back to their own countries to help them compete against American companies. That seems like a shortcut to economic problems.

Just the fact that someone needs to float the idea (pun only slightly intended) of putting a cruise ship offshore to help startups find reasonable talent highlights the nature of the problem, even if the cruise ship never sets sail. We're fundamentally turning away talent that grows the economy and creates jobs. From a policy perspective, from an economic perspective and from a moral perspective, it makes no sense.

Filed Under: immigration, international waters, silicon valley
Companies: blueseed

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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:26am

The more I hear about this effort, the more I'm convinced that it's more about the statement than the plan: the fact that the US continues to have ridiculously restrictive immigration policies for skilled, technology-savvy workers who can and do help create new jobs and build the economy. Instead, we send them back to their own countries to help them compete against American companies. That seems like a shortcut to economic problems.

Wow, more crap from Pirate Mike (International waters, matey! Yaaar!). Absolutely devoid of any actual analysis. Just another jump-to-conclusions based on intuition and gut-feelings. Faith-based FUD. Way to come out of the gate this week with some hard-hitting analysis there, Mikey. Not.
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The Old Man in The Sea, 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:27am

History repeating itself again???
Cannot learn from history, doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

IEEE, late 70's and early 80's, visas, foreign nationals, high technology, research and being forbidden to partake even though brought into the USA first.

regards and good night to all
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arcan, 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:34am

Re:
nice job criticizing without actually saying anything of any real value
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PaulT (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:39am

Re: Re:
Either that's the joke, or there's some sad, desperate people out there...
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Bas Grasmayer (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:41am

Re:
This AC has a swastika as a gravatar.
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Anonymous Coward of Esteemed Trolling (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:42am

But you have a "Green Card Lottery"
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:48am

How would you even get there? Still need a visa if you travel through the USA, even if you only transfer there.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:49am

Re: Re:
Fun fact: the swastica means "to be good"

Nazis just had a strange definition of "good". :P
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Donnicton, 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:51am

Re:
Wow, more crap from Anonymous Coward. Absolutely devoid of any actual analysis. Just another jump-to-conclusions based on intuition and gut-feelings. Faith-based FUD. Way to come out of the gate this week with some hard-hitting analysis there, Anon. Not.
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mattarse (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:52am

Re:
A tourist or a transit visa should be enough to get there though, instead of a work visa.
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Anonymous Coward of Esteemed Trolling (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:52am

White knighting for a change ( I have sword )
You make so much sense that I think I just shat myself.
Or is it the frequency of your words that resonate at "5#17 Hz".

Either way.... there certainly is an increase smell of shite since your comment appeared.
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ricebowl (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 5:57am

So...you'd need a tourist visa, or similar, to get to the ship that, once there, you cannot leave without risking immediately becoming a criminal, or illegal alien (if the two are distinct)?

How would one get back to their country of origin, or negotiate for another visa to return home, or go to the hospital?

It seems an interesting idea, but...essentially unworkable, without some fairly major considerations being undertaken first.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:00am

Step 1: Build a large artificial island city-state somewhere out in international waters.

Step 2: Attract the most intelligent, innovative, and passionate people from all over the world to come build businesses and new technologies on your island.

Step 3: Completely reject any and all software patents and SOPA/PIPA/CISPA/ACTA/TPP-inspired legislation within your new nation.

Step 4: Profit!

Step 5: Usher in a new, but short-lived golden age for education, science, technology, medicine, and human progress.

Step 6: Die horribly under a sky darkened by 10,000 U.S. attack drones as your new nation is declared a terrorist enclave and burned to the ground by the orders of an administration doing favors for the MPAA/RIAA in exchange for more campaign donations.
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Dave (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:03am

Follow the Money.
Who profits by keeping these, admittedly talented, people from coming here? We NEED them. There should be NO restrictions on them. They create businesses and jobs. They boost the economy. Why send them home to compete with us? Someone has, again, subverted Washington in the name of profits. This all has to stop.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:03am

Re: White knighting for a change ( I have sword )
You might have better luck white knighiing if you had some armour. Or even just didn't do it naked
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Dave (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:08am

Re:
10,000 drones too expensive, and unnecessary. One 100KT bomb will do it, in the name of national security. To the UN: "We had to do it. They were destroying our profits!"
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Chargone (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:08am

Re:
depends on the deportation process... it's a one time deal, but depending on how it works it could really equal basically a free trip home :D

though.. this is the US.

it's probably a free trip to a gulag outside the US's official borders as an 'enemy combatant' instead ...

meh. hire a boat, have it delivered to the ship. sail to somewhere less made of suck for the first leg of your trip home.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:12am

Re:
Rated as 'Funny' yet again.. Thanks for the daily chuckle.
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Wally (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:12am

Everyone
"The more I hear about this effort, the more I'm convinced that it's more about the statement than the plan: the fact that the US continues to have ridiculously restrictive immigration policies for skilled, technology-savvy workers who can and do help create new jobs and build the economy. Instead, we send them back to their own countries to help them compete against American companies. That seems like a shortcut to economic problems."

Sad thing is, they do this to everyone. It is really difficult to become a US citizen for several reasons.....though in my opinion, they are a bit harsh. One of them is that you have to know all the US presidents.
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Violated (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:15am

USA versus UK
Well not that many years ago my brother, his wife, and their young son moved from the UK to the USA. He seemed to get his Green Card no problem but then this was a rather easy move when he worked for the same company in the UK as he now does in the USA. So this was just a multi-national company moving staff between countries as they desire.

Anyway he has now been living there long enough to be granted the permanent right to say. He seems to have a nice job when they often send him all over the United States to promote their company in trade fairs and such.

Well if you want to see a real immigration problem then you don't need to look beyond the UK. Thanks to the opening up of EU borders, along with the right of citizens to live and work anywhere, then about 2.6 million Eastern Europeans soon flooded into the UK.

You can imagine that one when you then need at least 1.3 million new homes but since they sure are not building them that quickly then rental prices have shot up by about 50% certainly in the South East area. Well extra workers is not such a bad thing, work hard, pay tax, and benefit the local economy. Except of course many send their wages back to their home country to help their family there.

The Government moans of course but they really can do nothing to end this influx when free movement of people and goods is a core concept of the EU and written down in laws as such. Those MPs that claim they will end or slow this EU influx are only lying to you when it would be unlawful.

So all they do is to attack those outside the EU mostly directed at Asia and those who have a more natural overseas job goal. We must not forget that Asians do provide important jobs here in the UK from specialist high trained Indian and Chinese chefs, through doctors and nurses, down to community caregivers.

Therefore all we have is a Government with a serious immigration problem there can really do nothing about until EU citizens get bored coming here and go elsewhere. Their attack on the slow influx and outflux of other workers is misdirected and the only saving grace is that the Immigration service is badly missing Government targets.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:15am

Re: White knighting for a change ( I have sword )
You are not funny.
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ComputerAddict (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:17am

Re: Re:
Correct and the idea of this place is that you can easily obtain transit / tourist visa's so you can come to the main land and have meetings with VC's in Silicon Valley. Otherwise there is not point in parking it there, vs anywhere else in the world
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:18am

Re:
"We're fundamentally turning away talent that grows the economy and creates jobs. From a policy perspective, from an economic perspective and from a moral perspective, it makes no sense."

What would the foreign workers be paid, in comparison to similarly-skilled American techies?
Probably pennies!
So, it makes financial sense to "offshore" (literally) more jobs that should go to Americans who would cost the start-ups more.
But it makes no moral sense.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:21am

Immigration is... hard. Before we bring in more people, we need to update our infrastructure to handle the load. It's not just roads and bridges. Our water infrastructure is having trouble even handling its current load many places. (Google "Americas water crisis") Even after that is fixed, we take more out of the ground than is replenished every year. We need a new source or we need a lot more rain.

On top of that, we seem to need to lock a lot of people up for very stupid, nonviolent reasons for a long time. That points to either resource shortages (even if prisoners cost more in dollars, it takes fewer physical resources to house them after the prison is built) or very, very, short sighted politicians and electorates. The current immigration policy, financial crisis, and unemployment numbers points to resource shortages.

America may be full right now. :/
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drew (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:22am

Re: Everyone
"One of them is that you have to know all the US presidents" what personally? That IS tough.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:22am

Re: Everyone
Memorizing 43 names is that hard? Not especially relevant, I'll grant you. But for the types of skilled, highly intelligent workers we're talking about, it's a minor hurdle.
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That One Guy (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:25am

Honestly, I'm really hoping the whole plan is more a publicity stunt than anything, designed to make it glaringly obvious to people just how insanely stupid US immigration policy can be in cases like that.

The US should be doing everything in it's power to entice people like that to come over and start businesses, becoming a real boon to a struggling economy, not making it all but impossible for them to do so.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:27am

Immigration is a big problem in the US, too much partisanship to get anything done on it.

Much as republicans would like forget it, their hero Ronald Reagan DID grant amnesty to all the illegal immigrants and gave them US citizenship at one point when he was president.

Any republican who dared even hint at considering doing such a thing as president would be chased out of the party. And any democrat who did so would quickly demonized by all the conservatives as a radical anti-American liberal or something like that.
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artp (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:29am

There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
I had a visceral reaction against professional immigration, and I had to step back and figure out why that was....

In every case where I have seen corporations champion using foreign nationals for skilled work, those people have been paid less, sometimes far less, than the corresponding citizen was. That makes it attractive for the corporations to promote high unemployment for citizens, while profiting enormously from non-citizens.

I'd rather compete on skills rather than wages. Bring them on in, but pay them the same, or it's just another form of slavery.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:31am

Re: Everyone
That's insane. I don't know every last one of the US presidents by heart, and I was born here!
There's always people wanting to enforce immigration, but why does no one ever want to improve it? Is the RIAA in charge of border security or something?
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PaulT (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:33am

Re: USA versus UK
So, you have a single anecdotal story to tell of someone who had a relatively easy time, and you weigh this against sweeping generalisations. On top of that, you turn a story specifically about US immigration policies into a screed against UK/European politics. Nice.

"Thanks to the opening up of EU borders, along with the right of citizens to live and work anywhere, then about 2.6 million Eastern Europeans soon flooded into the UK."

Many of whom have since moved back to their home countries or elsewhere once it became clear that the grass really wasn't greener. A situation mirrored by fellow Brits who have emigrated to other countries. There may well be higher net immigration at the moment, but this is due to a new political situation (new EU member states) that will normalise itself within time. There's many stories of Poles who couldn't get jobs or just hated living in the UK and decided to return within a couple of years.

"The Government moans of course but they really can do nothing to end this influx when free movement of people and goods is a core concept of the EU and written down in laws as such"

Something which works both ways, despite what the Daily Mail might tell you.

"So all they do is to attack those outside the EU mostly directed at Asia and those who have a more natural overseas job goal."

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this, but you seem to be concerned that people from outside of the EU are treated differently from those within it. Given that EU member states specifically guarantee rights that are not offered to non-EU citizen, I'm not entirely sure what the problem is. Are you suggesting that rights guaranteed to EU citizens (including UK citizens living abroad) should not be granted, or that additional rights should be offered to non-EU citizens?

Perhaps you could clarify? Although I can't help but chuckle slightly - had you written this comment 20 years ago, it would most likely be immigrants from Asian and Caribbean countries who were considered less skilled and overwhelming the local markets...

"We must not forget that Asians do provide important jobs here in the UK from specialist high trained Indian and Chinese chefs, through doctors and nurses, down to community caregivers."

There are also African and South American trained professionals, as well as many from elsewhere in the EU. Why do you single out Asians?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:34am

Re: Re: White knighting for a change ( I have sword )
Brown notes are always funny
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PaulT (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:35am

Re:
Wouldn't all that be an additional reason to allow people who would improve the economy and infrastructure access to your country rather than forcing them to use their talents in competing nations?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:37am

Re: Everyone
I say the requirement for geting here is learn the president's english.

Unified language is both pratical and as somethig legal citizens know it's also more fair than learniing executive branchers
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Anonymous Coward of Esteemed Trolling (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:53am

I wear appropriate attire
I am not naked.
I am wearing something ffs.

OK ... here's the proof, from my webcam.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:53am

Re: Re: Everyone
I'm going to be that guy.

for GETTING here

as SOMETHING legal

than LEARNING executive

Learning proper English would be a better requirement I agree, but I also happen to think before we make others learn our language we can effectively use it ourselves (which includes proper spelling). Sorry, I'm just a stickler for spelling (although I'll be the first to admit I do make occasional mistakes, which I'll happily correct as soon as I catch them).
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 6:57am

Re: I wear appropriate attire
You cna't fool me with that clearly doctered PNG
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:03am

Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Is not up to you, you will compete in whatever environment there happens to be.

If the problem is pay, find ways to make more with less money, that means having to work more to get the things you need of course.

That will greatly help you and others.

The less you depend on money the better you are off, because it means the less you depend on others for your survival.
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technomage (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:04am

Re: I wear appropriate attire
OMG ACET..That image will haunt me the rest of the day...

I'm just glad I wasn't drinking my morning coffee when I opened that.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:08am

Re:
Step 1: Build a large artificial island city-state off the shore of California.
Step 2: Release FEV virus.
Step 3: Profit!
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:09am

Re: Re:
Curses, unsigned again!
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:13am

Re: Re: Re: Everyone
I said president's english, not proper english.

The Queen holds the copyright on proper english.
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Anonymous Coward of Esteemed Trolling (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:14am

cant tell if troll OR has Humor Tourette Syndrome
Keep on saying it, eventually it will be true.
It will happen on the same day that I stop laughing at myself. The day that my humor dies.
When did yours die ?
I would like to know, how long I have got left before I am compelled to tell people they are not funny.

It wasn't directed at you anyway... WHY do you care ?

A Butthurt fan maybe ?

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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:16am

Actually, the more I hear about this story, the more I wonder why these people don't just stay home and build the businesses there.

Oh wait, they come from countries with no infrastructure, no purchasing power, and no support for these guys.

Perhaps they should bitch at their own governments, rather than just trying to leech off the US (again).
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:16am

I would say it would be better to let anyone enter a country if they have a job there, while as soon as they are without a job, they are no longer wanted. That solution would be so much better than the current western world immigration-mess.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:16am

I would say it would be better to let anyone enter a country if they have a job there, while as soon as they are without a job, they are no longer wanted. That solution would be so much better than the current western world immigration-mess.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:17am

Re: Re:
No, adding more people generally doesn't help solve water shortages.
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VMax, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:22am

Re: Re: Re:
It worked in "Dune"
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:24am

Re: Re: Everyone
You do realize english isn't the official language of the US right?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:25am

Re: Re: Re:
At least you got your groove back
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:26am

Re: Re:
Um Pot this is the kettle... your black
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Violated (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:27am

Re: Re: USA versus UK
I provided some real life examples in my belief that the USA does not have an immigration issue nearly as big as the UK.

Yes while many did indeed leave due to failing to find work here, work ending, or social issues, but you forget the number one reason why people come here in the first place namely that the average job wage here is much higher than in their own country. So they desire to work here and send their wages back home. In some Eastern European countries entire towns have uprooted with the adults working abroad with the grandparents looking after the kids.

The immigration and emigration figures are available for all to see and they prove the UK population is on the increase. This is the reason why MPs have been freaking out for years and why the immigration rules have got much tougher.

I singled out Asia when again it is an area I know about from direct experience mainly due to my Filipino partner. I would not deny that there are imports from around the world but Asia does indeed provide workers for jobs that the locals are unskilled or unwilling to do.

Immigration is a big issue to me which is why I spent a lot of money having my partner trained as a caregiver so she can one day come here to live and work even if that work involves CPR and washing the poo off of the disabled and elderly.

Well the big issues in my life are: The recession which has sunk to a new low in recent months harming my sales. The GBP to PHP hit a new low rate of 62.9 (it used to be 83 to 85 back in 2008). The large increase in rental prices & airfare. Tightening up of immigration rules and more.

So this to me like f**k you economy and society! I have worked hard to achieve my goals in life and here you are throwing piles of crap me!

Well life goes on and I wait this damned recession to end and boom time to make lots of sales. The key to a healthy economy is the flow of money when people buy.
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RyanNerd (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:38am

The dumbing down of America
America used to be known for its hard work and innovation. Now it is known for its entrenched bureaucracy and catering to lobbies and other elitist interests.

That we even NEED to bring in foreign nationals (because there aren't enough smart people in America) is just an other glaring example of a failed educational system.

It's sad really.

I am a software developer. I taught my son how to program computers because his computer science teacher at his high school barely knew what a mouse was. My son now creates software for iOS and Android platforms and is making a living at doing so.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:48am

Re: Re: Re: Everyone
Of course, but it's what most already speak or at least understand so it's the best choice for this sort of thing.

More american citizens understand english than know the presidents so it's both a fair and a practical requirement
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:51am

Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
We're all dependent on others for survival. If nothing else, you depend on them not to blow up the earth while you're standing on it.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:53am

Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
I worked in publishing, doing desktop page design and digital print production making $30-45 per hour.
The company I worked for "offshored" the work to India, where they pay a flat per-page rate that works out to about $8 per hour.
Now I create and sell tchochkes on Zazzle, making about $1,000 a month.
It's my only earned income.
If it wasn't for investments I previously set up when I was working full-time, I couldn't afford my rent.
(BTW, I'm 54, so moving in with my parents isn't an option unless they make room under the tombstone.)
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 7:55am

Re: Follow the Money.
"Who profits by keeping these, admittedly talented, people from coming here? We NEED them."

Do we?
Are there no "admittedly talented people" HERE?
Or would they just cost corporations too much in salaries and benefits?
I don't see us offshoring CEO jobs.
Why not?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:01am

Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Ah yes, a comment from someone who obviously has NO clue at all about how bringing in foreign workers works. Here's a few facts, from someone who has worked in recruiting for a number of years:

1) Most workers are brought in by themselves, leaving their family behind in the country they came from. So they have only 1 person to support in this country, and even if they are sending money back home to support the family, they need FAR less to do so.

2) Most workers are brought in as basically slaves, working for far, FAR less than the average citizen/GC here, with the company sponsoring their visa selling their services off to companies for a price that undercuts what any reasonable Citizen/GC should ask for (and many times, overselling by FAR what the person is capable of).

3) Most workers are brought in, and then shipped all over the country from assignment to assignment, without any real say in where they go. So there is no concern for getting a job near home, family, friends, or community.

4) Most workers are given sub-par living conditions, usually with the recruiting company having apartments all over the country where they have their workers live, many times 2-3 people per bedroom, in order to keep the costs down.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Saying something like, "well, if they'll work for less, then obviously you're asking for too much!" is a completely ignorant and uninformed statement....unless you think the perfect solution is for the average US worker to start living like slaves to companies (which, admittedly, many think is the solution already).

tl;dr version: STFU n00b, you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:03am

Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Oh, and the obvious follow-up question: "Why would someone go through all that?" Because that's what it takes to get a Green Card through a work visa in this country, at which point people can bring over the rest of their immediate family and, since they've then been working for a few years and got used to seeing the prices being demanded for their services, start to demand a lot of money (many times, far more than the average US worker).
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Bones, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:08am

Scotty's dead, Jim.
You cna't fool me

Scotty ... is that ... you? ... Or ... Geoffrey ... Peterson's ... Straight man?

Balls!
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:14am

Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
wow, you can google all that crap propaganda, doesn't mean its true, google said the US took down the WTC.....
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DogBreath, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:14am

Re: Re: Re:
your black

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

This explains everything.

(Detective Sergeant Roger Murtaugh , Immigration Troll.)
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:15am

if anything we need to tighten up immigration controls
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:18am

and yes, mike is pulling crap out of his ass to comment on this, sorry if thier are rules people have to follow to become a citizen of the greatest country on the earth

want to stop those "talented" people from "competeing" with "us", stop letting them go to American Schools
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:18am

Re:
Some of the solutions to these problems may come from people who lived in places where these are much more acute problems, and they can make money adapting approaches used back home to our market. Or we need more money to better implement the solutions we already know about but aren't using yet or aren't using widely.

The prospective immigrants that are the subject of this proposal are skilled, intelligent workers, in particular programmers, engineers, and scientists. These are the people who make wealth and drive progress forward. Along the way, they make a fair amount of money too. That money represents real new money that didn't exist before, and the taxes on that can go to fixing things like crumbling transportation infrastructure.

Water is also largely a matter of money. The oceans have more water than anyone could ever want, if only we could get the salt out. That's a matter of energy, which, again, reduces to money. Once that's done, it's comparatively easy to pipeline it halfway across a continent. Conservation is partly a matter of money, too: greywater systems and xeriscaped lawns cost more than their conventional alternatives.

But is money all we get out of innovative startups, or the only way they can help infrastructural issues? Hardly. I used to have to buy computer games on physical media, in a store. Now, with Steam, I click a few buttons, type in some things, let it download, and I've got a game, all without leaving my desk. More importantly, though, it does this without lumber being harvested to make paper packaging I'll throw away and a manual I'll put in a drawer and forget about, without oil sucked and aluminium dug out of the ground, refined, and turned into plastic for a case I'll open once and a disc I'll stack somewhere, and without all these raw, intermediate, and finished products being shipped all over everywhere just to give me some data. This eliminates the marginal infrastructural wear and tear of selling me a copy of a game, because no logging trucks, shipping trucks, or oil tankers are involved. And, as a bonus, the lower (effectively zero) marginal cost of delivering me the game means either lower prices or higher profits, either of which translates to more money available to go back into the economy.

And that's just for one piece of entertainment. Every other kind of media has had the same kind of shift: music (Bandcamp, Amazon, iTunes), movies & TV (Netflix, Amazon, Hulu), and books (Project Gutenberg, Amazon, Barnes & Noble). Even movie theaters have gotten in on the act, getting films over the Internet instead of having big, heavy, fragile cans of film shipped to them every week.

It goes beyond entertainment, too. Banking and finance long ago realized that payments are just data with some weight of officiality to them. Direct deposit, electronic bill payment, and online banking are so common now that I almost feel guilty mentioning them, but they were but a twinkle in an innovator's eye not so long ago.

All of these removed the need to haul physical items around just to move data from one entity to another, and all of them reduced demand for some raw material (often several). That may be bad news for the industries of those raw materials, but the economy had a net gain from each and every one.

The biggest benefits, though, come not from making the old things more efficient, but in making previously impossible or inconvenient things possible and easy. The telephone took off because it made it possible to communicate, in real time, with someone far away. Instant messaging and Internet relay chat took off because they make it possible to communicate in text, in real time, with several people at once far away. The Web made it possible to communicate to anyone who cared to pay attention from anywhere in the world. Social networking took these last two and combined them to make it possible to communicate, in real time, with anyone who cared to pay attention anywhere in the world. And that certainly makes wealth; even after its overly optimistic IPO, Facebook has a larger market cap than Ford and General Motors combined.

Do I know what the next big thing will be? No. If I did, I'd be making it instead of writing this post. But somebody out there does, and I'd rather we didn't slam the door in their face if they want to build it here.
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Yartrebo (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:30am

It feels that we have a glut of skilled labor, not a shortage. I'm trained in computer science (have a BS in the field), am quite skilled in it, but have left the field because of the perennially lousy employment conditions.

Here is what I'd say a real shortage would look like:
- Employers would be willing to hire those with no experience (but a degree).
- More positions than applicants.
- Employee-favorable work and hiring conditions (trends in pay, job security, vacation, hours worked, benefits, etc).
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:37am

Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Quote:
1) Most workers are brought in by themselves, leaving their family behind in the country they came from. So they have only 1 person to support in this country, and even if they are sending money back home to support the family, they need FAR less to do so.

So they stopped caring for the family they left behind, are you stupid?
I know hundreds of foreigners that work in other countries, they all have their expenses just like everybody else dumb fuck.

Quote:
2) Most workers are brought in as basically slaves, working for far, FAR less than the average citizen/GC here, with the company sponsoring their visa selling their services off to companies for a price that undercuts what any reasonable Citizen/GC should ask for (and many times, overselling by FAR what the person is capable of).

Dumb fuck, off course they are hired for less, do you understand how much that money is in their home countries and how much it can buy there?
They can provide for their entire family and live like kings there while making big sacrifices where they work.

Quote:
3) Most workers are brought in, and then shipped all over the country from assignment to assignment, without any real say in where they go. So there is no concern for getting a job near home, family, friends, or community.

That is what you believe, not what they experience, they have families and they have their concerns and they bear all that crap because they need too, not because there are no concerns stupid fuck.

Quote:
4) Most workers are given sub-par living conditions, usually with the recruiting company having apartments all over the country where they have their workers live, many times 2-3 people per bedroom, in order to keep the costs down.

Yup, and as soon as they can and are on their feet they move out of those recruiting apartments.

The tip of the iceberg is the fact that there are people who can work for much less than you can and they will do it, they have more drive to do so and incredibly they can derive from less pay much more comfort than you could because their cost of living is lower.

Working in London and receiving in euros gives you 80% more buying power than any American, which means you could almost half your salary and it would be like getting another you double what you can do, but you stupid fuck don't understand currency do you?

A Chinese working in America can send 1 seventh his salary and it would be like having the entire salary to spend there, is like getting seven pays from seven jobs only you have to work one and that is the miracle of currencies, further they don't have all those protections that Americans and Europeans are so acostumed to, they were used to work under harsher conditions and when they get just a little better is like a good thing for them, of course not for you dumb fuck that lost the ability to endure any kind of hardship in life.

So please go fuck yourself stupid fuck, because you know shit about the world.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:38am

Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Yes we are all dependent on each other, but we don't need to be completely dependent on each other, do you get the difference?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:39am

Re: Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
You obviously never worked abroad.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:40am

Re: Re: Follow the Money.
Are you saying we have enough talent, and we shouldn't be seeking to entice more of it over? Sure, we have some great talent in the US, but why should we disparage increasing our pool of available, and eager, technologically savvy innovators? The more we have, the better, I would think.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:50am

Re: cant tell if troll OR has Humor Tourette Syndrome
Going to agree with the above person, you are not funny you just try to hard.
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Jeffrey Nonken (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:01am

Re: Re: Re: USA versus UK
"I provided some real life examples in my belief that the USA does not have an immigration issue nearly as big as the UK."

So does that mean the US doesn't have a problem? Or are you turning it into a pissing contest?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:02am

Re: Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Well then, you have no problem when
American companies start again building factories abroad and leaving behind American soil do you?

You will compete with lesser paid workers.

So either you learn to live with less money or you can keep bitching about how awful everything is and see American companies depart from American soil to much greener pastures.

How is your Chinese made, clothes, Chinese grow food, Chinese made electronics, Chinese made toys?

Are you going to buy the more expensive American made ones?
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AC Cobra, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:09am

Hard to get work visa? Really?
I don't know much about the tech sector job market, since I work in the movie and TV production biz. And it's just anecdotal, but in my line of work it seems any foreign national can come here and, why in the room with me right now is a Czech, a Brazillian, 2 Brits and an Aussie, as well as several Canadians. But whenever I ask about the possibility of going to their countries to work, I am told its well nigh impossible -I'll never get a work permit.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:10am

Re:
Pray tell us, what crap is he pulling out of his ass? Your argument is rather directionless without explanation of why you feel that way.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:11am

Re:
Please do so, I love to see all American companies scrambling to get out of the country so they can hire cheap labor elsewhere.

Did you know that a lot of American companies are moving to Mexico?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:13am

Re: Re: Re: Follow the Money.
"Sure, we have some great talent in the US, but why should we disparage increasing our pool of available, and eager, technologically savvy innovators?"

Because we have a lot of technologically savvy innovators who aren't working?
It's just that companies don't want to pay them what they're worth!
They'd rather import equally-talented workers from overseas who will do the same jobs for half the pay.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:17am

Re: The dumbing down of America
"My son now creates software for iOS and Android platforms and is making a living at doing so."

Is he making a living wage or is he still living in your basement?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:19am

Re: Re: The dumbing down of America
Want some tips to help you move out of yours?
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Andrew D. Todd, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:22am

International Waters are Two Hundred Miles Out.
The Generally agreed Exclusive Economic Zone is two hundred miles. Twelve miles is only applicable to "Innocent Passage." A Chinese ship cannot catch fish twelve miles off the California coast. Some years ago, Canada refused Innocent Passage to American fishing boats transiting from the state of Washington to the the state of Alaska, on the grounds that, while fishing in American waters, they were competing for fish with Canadian fishermen. The United States Coast Guard responded by organizing convoys outside of the two hundred mile limit, and sending along Coast Guard cutters to escort the convoys.

If the Nerd-ship has to be two hundred miles out to be legal, it would practically mean that the nerds would be living in more or less the same conditions as naval sailors at sea, that is, three-high bunks, and shore leave every couple of months. The Blueseed people aren't remotely as rich as the United States Navy, and their working conditions will almost certainly be a lot worse. Imagine a cubicle six feet by four feet. Two nerds are sitting at desks in the cubicle, and a third nerd is sleeping in a bunk above the desks. They take turns using the bunk. That is what navy submariners call "hot bunking," The corridor outside the cubicle is only about two and a half feet wide, so needless movement is discouraged. Every four hours or so, the cook comes by, handing out bowls of rice and fish stew... They will get off the ship, maybe once every couple of years.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:33am

Look, it's an H1B Haven!
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:36am

Re: Re: Re: The dumbing down of America
At least it's mine, not my parents', like your living quarters, boy.
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Chris Maresca, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:42am

The description is WRONG - it's not to 'help SV startups"
it's an incubator for people with overseas startups who would like to come to the US and can't get visas because the are not 'sponsored'.

The idea is that, by being close to SV, they will eventually get funding and can then get the right visas....

It is NOT a talent pool for existing SV startups. In fact, Blueseeds model relies on companies onboard having an exit at some point.

See http://www.slideshare.net/Blueseed/blueseed-visafree-startup-incubator-on-a-ship-12-miles-from-silic on-valley
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Chris Maresca, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Follow the Money.
I live in Silicon Valley. There is such a HUGE shortage here that salaries for tech people have been going through the roof.

If you are a technologist and are unemployed, then there is something wrong. I know of at least 3 companies with more than 100 positions open, and every company I talk to is desperate for talent.

I don't know where all these unemployed technologists are, but it's certainly not here.

Besides, Blueseed is an INCUBATOR, not a body factory....
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:55am

Re: Follow the Money.
Why do we NEED them? We already have thousands of bright, educated Americans that are out of work that can do or can be trained to do the same things?
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Chris Maresca, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:59am

Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Hmmm,

I work in SV, I've recruited people, I've worked alongside a lot of H1B workers. I've also lived in 7 other countries and started a business in a foreign country. On top of that, I'm married to a gov't official whose's job it is to approve business visas....

This is what I know about H1Bs here in SV:

1. All of the H1B tech workers I have ever worked with were paid in line with market rates, sometimes slightly better

2. Tech salaries here in SV are 3x comparable salaries in other Western countries - even with the cost of living, you make WAY more here.

3. Any H1B visa holder that's good will be recruited away, there are dozens of specialist law firms that will help with the H1B employer transfer

4. I know several CEOs that recruit exclusively overseas due to the lack of local talent. It's not a cost issue, there simply is no one available to fill the positions.

And, that's just the tip of the iceberg. There is a huge shortage of tech people and it's getting worse. Everyone knows it, and the gov't is doing zero to help.
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Chris Maresca, 9 Jul 2012 @ 10:06am

Re:
Come to Silicon Valley, we need people like you.

Almost all companies pay benefits, give you good vacation and high salaries.

As far as job security goes, good workers are always in demand here as long as you keep your skills up to date. It's such a job seeker's market that most events have a huge number of recruiters looking for talent.

And if you can stomach contracting, you can make roughly 2-3x what you would in salary. Some of my friends do this part of the year and take 3-4 months a year off to travel.
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Chosen Reject (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 10:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Follow the Money.
Mayhaps I'm just crazy, but if someone else can do the same job for half the pay, then that is what that job is worth.
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ltlw0lf (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 10:25am

Re: Re: Re:
Nazis just had a strange definition of "good". :P

The Nazis had strange definitions for a lot of things. When your existence depends entirely on making up crap to justify your existence, you make up a lot of crap. The sad thing is that they used the religious symbols and religious stories of many religions, including Jewish religious traditions, to justify their existence. I suspect if you look back at the history of religion, you'll find a lot of folks making crap up to justify their existence. FSM excepted, of course.
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ltlw0lf (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 10:33am

Re:
So...you'd need a tourist visa, or similar, to get to the ship that, once there, you cannot leave without risking immediately becoming a criminal, or illegal alien (if the two are distinct)?

Depends, if you travel through the US and get your passport stamped to and from the US, you should be fine. I've landed by plane in another country, then jumped on a boat from one country and off a boat in another country, and then left through the other country by plane and had no problem. You just need to make sure that you get stamped in and out through customs each time.

Of course, I have one country where I didn't stamp out of, and I might have a real problem when I go back there in the future, but it should just require me to explain why I didn't stamp out at customs.
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dwg (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 10:40am

Cornell
http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/19/siliconisland/
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 10:50am

Re: Re: cant tell if troll OR has Humor Tourette Syndrome
Good, let the butthurt flow through you
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Chosen Reject (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 10:52am

Re:
You have a strange definition of leech. They want to come over and create jobs for Americans and pay taxes to America.
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artp (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:03am

Re: Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Apparently there are different conditions in Silicon Valley than there are in the rest of the country (at least as much as I know of it). That happens. Not everybody wants to live there, you know. I remember when there were corporate headquarters all over the country.

One thing that would help the situation is if IT people were hired like engineers. Engineers are hired for their skills, and their ability to learn new things and develop new technologies. IT people are hired because they have 4 years experience in a field that is 2 years old. ;-)

Even though the life-cycle of IT is about 2 years and dropping. (Maybe even 18 months.)

I was deemed sufficiently skilled to go save a nuclear power plant installation that was six months behind schedule and couldn't start up their main feedwater loop. But I wasn't deemed skillful enough to be an IT manager for a food distribution warehouse, even though I had been an IT manager twice before and had food plant and drug plant experience.

Not complaining, just reporting.
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Violated (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:24am

Re: Re: Re: Re: USA versus UK
Well if the United States has a problem then I would not know why except for some people blaming job issues on foreign nationals than correctly on the recession.

The USA has plenty of spare land there with an average population density of just 84. Lets just say that the UK has a population density of 650.

The United States has a long history of immigration, when it is in fact hard to find someone there who was not imported at some stage of their family history, then I don't see why they would want to change now. As my example shows then anyone with good qualifications, no criminal records and an agreed job waiting for them should not have much of a problem.

The land of opportunity they call it where there is a million and one ways to make money. Proud of that they should be when for a poor country like the Philippines there are very few opportunities and many more barriers.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
"4. I know several CEOs that recruit exclusively overseas due to the lack of local talent. It's not a cost issue, there simply is no one available to fill the positions.
And, that's just the tip of the iceberg. There is a huge shortage of tech people and it's getting worse. Everyone knows it, and the gov't is doing zero to help."

Explain all the techies I've worked with who can't find work.
They were making $75-150,000 per (plus bonuses).
Got downsized.
Can't find work IN THE SAME FIELD for more than $40,000 per!
Please present the link to your company's website so they can see the Promised Land.
Unless, of course, it doesn't exist...
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Mike Masnick (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:30am

Re:
Here is what I'd say a real shortage would look like:
- Employers would be willing to hire those with no experience (but a degree).
- More positions than applicants.
- Employee-favorable work and hiring conditions (trends in pay, job security, vacation, hours worked, benefits, etc).

Every single one of those is true in Silicon Valley...
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Follow the Money.
"If you are a technologist and are unemployed, then there is something wrong. I know of at least 3 companies with more than 100 positions open, and every company I talk to is desperate for talent."

Please post links here.
Unless your statements aren't true...
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Matthew A. Sawtell, 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:30am

So... the H-1B wasn't a big enough tool for the 'Corporate Pimps'?
So Mike... the H-1B Visa wasn't a big enough tool for the 'Corporate Pimps' in Silcon Valley? So instead of contractors in the U.S. being "given a chance to 'compete' with international talent" - it is now down to giving up the passport at the dock to basically work for the 'company store'?

Methinks most Mercs worth there weigh are going to decline this idea.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:32am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Follow the Money.
"Mayhaps I'm just crazy, but if someone else can do the same job for half the pay, then that is what that job is worth."

I can do your job for half your pay.
Tell your boss, so I can replace you, or take a pay cut.
I dare you.
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artp (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:33am

Re: Colorful metaphors
As Kirk said to Spock in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home:

Perhaps you shouldn't use those colorful metaphors. I don't think you have the hang of it.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:33am

Re: Re: Re: Re: The dumbing down of America
My living quarters are mine too boy.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"It worked in "Dune""

We don't have SandWorm Spice on Earth.
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Matthew A. Sawtell, 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:36am

Shenangians!
Calling Shenangians on that Mike - given what I have seen for "recruitment" here in the Midwest from West Coast Firms. Then again, why attempt to get older Mercs when the 'Ross Perot' method of getting them straight out of college and throwing straight into a meat grinder has been shown to be a 'proven winner' by the Havard Business Model folks?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:42am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dumbing down of America
Really, by?
Then why is your mother doing your laundry?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 11:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Follow the Money.
I don't see ads from Silicon Valley companies in either New York or Chicago papers or sites.
Don't techies live there?
If SV is so desperate for talent and is willing to look overseas for it, why aren't they looking in the MidWest or East Coast?
Is it because the techies there would want a living wage if they relocated?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 12:09pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dumbing down of America
Don't you recognize your mom anymore?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 12:24pm

Re: Re:
Every single one of those is true in Silicon Valley...
And therein lies the problem.

SV wants more H1Bs because they have this huge deficit of workers, yet if you go to Chicago or New York, there are tons of IT workers out of jobs. SV only sees two options: either you're in SV or we need H1Bs. I've yet to see a SV company other than Apple or Google do much of any recruiting outside of SV.

Then they bitch that there aren't enough IT workers and they need more H1Bs. They seem blind to an option that's a little closer to home than "overseas" workers. Maybe they should try looking there.
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Chosen Reject (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 12:33pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Follow the Money.
You're daring me to take the word of some guy who claims he can do my job when 1) I don't know what he's even capable of and 2) he doesn't even know what my job is. Maybe you can, maybe you can't. I don't know, and neither do you, but you want my company to take that risk when the reward is slight (really, cutting my salary in half for several years still wouldn't pay the ramp up time and onboarding costs) and the risk is big.

Do you want to know how I know that you can't do my job at all, let alone for half the pay? The above is how I know. You are an idiot that doesn't think through what you're saying.

And even if you could do my job, I'll note here that it is not my job to make sure that my company hired the cheapest possible replacement.
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Joshy, 9 Jul 2012 @ 12:42pm

This isn't a Visa issue it's basically a floating Tech campus or glorified sweatshop.

This is a Tech CEO's dream a boatload of tech guys with nothing to do but eat, sleep and program

Just think about how much more expensive it would be to house all these people in Silicon Valley.

Imagine the marketing bait and switch "Come work in America" We cut out the red-tape of getting a visa. (only you get to live on a crowded cruise ship really really close to America)
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Yartrebo (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 1:01pm

Re: Re: Re:
Yup. I'm a New Yorker and my experiences are with the NY job market. Silicon Valley is just a tiny portion of the country. If that small locale is having a labor shortage, then start advertising nationally and offering incentives to relocate.

If you offer enough, they will come.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 2:06pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The dumbing down of America
If that made sense, I'd respond, boy.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 2:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Follow the Money.
"And even if you could do my job, I'll note here that it is not my job to make sure that my company hired the cheapest possible replacement."

Translation:
You don't dare list your job requirements or company because you know any number of people who would work for less could do your job as well as you...or better.
You fear that if your bosses even thought about it, you'd be history.
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Claire Ryan (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 3:44pm

I just want to say
...that, as someone who IS a filthy immigrant, the US looks like it's gone completely batcrap nuts.

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" - what the hell ever happened to that? America used to be the ideal, the promised land; a place where any man could be judged on his merits, not his bloodline or his history or his religion. Now? It's like the whole country is eating its own tail, so wrapped up in being The Best Place in the World(TM) that it can't accept that today's immigrants could be just as worthy as the ones who built it.

I had to figure out where I wanted to go, when I decided that I had to leave Ireland. The US wasn't an option, not for a second. I couldn't put my future in the hands of a fickle bureaucracy who seem bent on looking down on me, who could make me jump through hoops for years and STILL deport me on a whim. I have friends who've been there for more than six years, working in fields that require Phds, and yet have no hope of getting a green card. Everything I know about or have heard of says the same thing: if you want to immigrate somewhere else, prove yourself, and build a better life, then forget about America. They don't want you there.

I went to Canada instead, probably the best decision I've ever made. The money that I'll be spending in the economy, the taxes I'll pay, the house I will buy, the children I will raise; it'll all be in the fine city of Vancouver BC.

As for the US? I'll visit, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there.
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btr1701, 9 Jul 2012 @ 4:18pm

Re:
> once there, you cannot leave without risking immediately
> becoming a criminal, or illegal alien

Illegal alien status should be their goal. Once you become an illegal alien, you're essentially untouchable by the law these days, especially in California. Neither the state nor the federal government will do anything that will even so much as inconvenience you. In fact, CA is constantly amending, repealing, or just flat-out refusing to enforce laws all the time because they might bother illegal aliens. It's getting to the point where illegals are being treated *better* than US citizens in some cases.

So all these barge nerds need to do is become illegals and in the unlikely event that Obama doesn't give them amnesty flat-out, the state of California will fight tooth and nail to protect them from even the most minor of annoyances.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:21pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well apparently they are announcing nationally that they have a shortage of workers and apparently no American want to move to SV.

The thing I don't get is how somebody far far away in another country that get no incentives(they pay everything back) can get job interviews first and not the people living right next door.

You people are doing something wrong, because to be beaten in your own homeland to the punch is not the foreigners fault, the problem lies with you.

What will you ask next?

A law discriminating against workers so local have to have quotas filled?
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Chosen Reject (profile), 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:23pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Follow the Money.
My boss is well aware of people who do my job for a lot less. My company has an entire division from India who do what I do for less. My boss is Indian. Like I said, it's not my responsibility to be sure my company is paying the least possible for my job. My company pays me what we mutually agreed to. If they don't like it, then they could have passed me by. So even if you could do my job and you asked for half my salary, you'd then have my job for half my salary and in a short time I'd have a job at a different place for the same salary as I'm making now.

None of that changes the laws of supply and demand. Some people are willing to pay a lot, some very little, sometimes it's a buyer's market, sometimes it's a seller's market. If a enough people are willing to take a job for less means that is what the job is worth on the market. If you are willing to do a job for less then that is what it is worth to you. If the company is willing to pay me more then that is what it is worth to them. You just want to leave money on the table.

Also, I won't tell you my company for privacy reasons, but you can find my profession through my profile.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:26pm

Re:
...or if the people behind it are really serious and capable it could become a floating oasis, the moving nerd island where all work is offshored to.

For dreamers with space faring ambitions this is a great opportunity to see something born out of it, further since those are international waters it means it will have their own rules onboard which is a bit scary
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Matthew A. Sawtell, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:33pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
More like the Corporate Pimps do not care how their workers live - just as long as the job is done. Seen my share of H-1Bs/students stacked and shacked in hole 'n the wall apartments, eeking out an existence - watching them get preyed upon all sorts of 'upstanding citizens' looking to fleece them for more. Heck, if you are ever in the Chicago area, look up some of the 'educational' opporunities made available for the H-1Bs to actually learn the skills they really need to do their jobs.

As for your last crack... {smile} ... that my dear has been a tried and true tactic in places like India, P.R. China, Russia, and elsewhere for years - along with the 51/49% ownership scheme.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 8:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Well apparently they are announcing nationally that they have a shortage of workers and apparently no American want to move to SV."
I missed the press release.
Could you direct me to it?
Any link will do...

"You people are doing something wrong, because to be beaten in your own homeland to the punch is not the foreigners fault, the problem lies with you."

When recruiters seek employees outside their own country and don't recruit in their native land, the reason is they don't want to pay the "going rate", but underpay foreigners who won't have legal recourse to complain lest they be deported.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2012 @ 9:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Follow the Money.
As Tonto once said to his Kemosabe...
"He speaks much, but says little."
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PaulT (profile), 10 Jul 2012 @ 1:32am

Re: Re: Re: USA versus UK
"I provided some real life examples in my belief that the USA does not have an immigration issue nearly as big as the UK."

No you didn't. You provided an anecdote about one guy who found it easy to emigrate to the US, and vaguely hinted at some things related to Asia that you didn't explain until your reply.

Your "belief" that immigration is a worse problem in the UK than the US probably means very little to a Texan or Californian dealing with immigrants coming over the southern border, for example. It doesn't address the real issue of getting sufficient skilled workers in place from other countries, especially in those cases where the US has provided education under their visa system then have to take their skills elsewhere because they can't get work permits.

Are you actually looking at figures, or are you just relying on vague anecdotes?

"Well the big issues in my life are: The recession which has sunk to a new low in recent months harming my sales. The GBP to PHP hit a new low rate of 62.9 (it used to be 83 to 85 back in 2008). The large increase in rental prices & airfare. Tightening up of immigration rules and more."

Funny, my life in Spain (as an immigrant from the UK, no less) has become significantly easier in recent times as the Euro has weakened against the Sterling (2 years ago �1 almost equalled �1, now I get �1.24/�, a 24% increase in income), and I'm reaping the benefits of an open EU that allows free trade and movement across borders. Why, it's almost as if your unique personal experience isn't the same as everybody's, and there's many more factors to consider...

"So this to me like f**k you economy and society! I have worked hard to achieve my goals in life and here you are throwing piles of crap me!"

...and what does that have to do with immigration? There's a hell of a lot of problems that have bugger all to do with immigration, and your financial woes probably have more to do with Wall Street and City greed than anything someone who immigrated from Poland a few years ago did to you.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jul 2012 @ 6:08am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Correct, and since I'm talking about people coming from other places to the US.....that has no bearing here.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jul 2012 @ 6:11am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Wow, you really are that stupid, huh? You've managed to equate the US legally using slave labor in this country to importing goods and exporting jobs.....when using labor here is actually the OPPOSITE of that.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jul 2012 @ 6:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Guess you didn't bother reading, so that's cool. No, I worked in recruiting for years. Seen it all first-hand. But this is the internet, so obviously I'm lying and am a 14-yr old.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jul 2012 @ 6:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re: There's another agenda lurking behind this one....
Ah, my fav response. Lets break this giant steaming pile of fail down...

Quote:

So they stopped caring for the family they left behind, are you stupid?
I know hundreds of foreigners that work in other countries, they all have their expenses just like everybody else dumb fuck.

So first off, you ignore what I said and put in what you wanted me to say. Try reading, you ignorant fuck. I said they're sending money back home, but it takes less due to a lower cost of living. But that term is probably too advanced for you.

Quote:

Dumb fuck, off course they are hired for less, do you understand how much that money is in their home countries and how much it can buy there?
They can provide for their entire family and live like kings there while making big sacrifices where they work.

Sorry, I take that back, apparently you understand the concept of cost of living....but are too fucking stupid to apply it well. Oh well. Nice to see you ignore what I said again, though.

Quote:

That is what you believe, not what they experience, they have families and they have their concerns and they bear all that crap because they need too, not because there are no concerns stupid fuck.

And since you have no experience with this yourself, you sum this up with, "NUH UH!!!!" Sit down before you look even dumber. Yes, this happens. Constantly.

Quote:

Yup, and as soon as they can and are on their feet they move out of those recruiting apartments.

Right, after 7 years of working on an H1B, and sometimes even longer with time to process paperwork. So sure, after living like a slave for nearly a decade, they're fine! What's wrong with that?? Why shouldn't we all do that!?!?!?!

Quote:

The tip of the iceberg is the fact that there are people who can work for much less than you can and they will do it, they have more drive to do so and incredibly they can derive from less pay much more comfort than you could because their cost of living is lower.

So....you once again summed it up nicely, but didn't realize you proved my point. Lets try it again: You fucking moron, these people are living like slaves, and you're saying that we should all do that, so we can compete on how much money we can live on. Sadly, it probably still won't work.

Quote:

Working in London and receiving in euros gives you 80% more buying power than any American, which means you could almost half your salary and it would be like getting another you double what you can do, but you stupid fuck don't understand currency do you?

Ah, so now the answer isn't to compete fairly, it's to go to another country. Gotcha. You really are that fucking dense?

Skipping the rest of the same diarrhea spewed out across your comment, because it's the same shit said over and over, blaming people trying to make a fair living in the US for not wanting to live like a slave. Guess Bob has been getting to you too much, and you're starting to see things his way, that we should all live like slaves to the almighty corporation and how dare we want more?
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Phil, 10 Jul 2012 @ 10:08am

I had to learn the presidents in 4th grade.
My teacher was positively evil; she made us memorize all the presidents' names in order to pass. I can still recite their last names:

Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, J.Q. Adams, Jackson, Van Buren, Harrison, Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan, Lincoln, Johnson, Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur, Cleveland, Harrison, Cleveland, McKinley, Roosevelt, Taft, Wilson, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover, Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter; (we were currently voting for Reagan or Carter at the time).

Did I miss any? That was from memory...
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Phil, 10 Jul 2012 @ 10:16am

As Tonto Said to Kemosabe?
Reminds me of a joke:

The Lone Ranger and Tonto were riding across Arizona when they saw a thousand Apaches riding towards them from the West. "Let's head North!" the Lone Ranger yelled, and they rode North.

But more Apaches approached from the North! So the Lone Ranger yelled "Quick! To the East!" And they rode to the East.

Another line of Apaches appeared to the East, closing them in on three sides. "South! Maybe South!" the Lone Ranger yelled.

Just as they turned to the south, the East and West lines merged, completely boxing the Lone Ranger and Tonto in.

"My God!" the Lone Ranger yelled. "Tonto, what are we going to do?"

Tonto replied "You got a mouse in your pocket, white man?"
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Anonymous Coward, 13 Mar 2013 @ 11:46am

Re: Re: Re:
maybe It needs to be by the internet?
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Dec 2015 @ 8:04am

I can see it now:
The U.S.S. Arbeit Macht Frei

I'm sure there are a number of Congressmen investing in the scheme already.
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