Not So Hip 2 Da Game: 90s Rapper Sues Upstart Mac Miller For Doing What Rappers Do

Culture

from the sampling-is-how-hip-hop-works dept

Thu, Jul 12th 2012 3:02pm — Mike Masnick

Okay, this one is just crazy. You hopefully already know about Mac Miller. We wrote about him last year, as he was the first truly independent artist to release an album that topped the charts in over a decade. Historically, the charts are absolutely dominated by major label acts, because the major labels pay millions of dollars to "break" a record. Of course, part of how Miller became so famous is the same way tons of new hip-hop stars are rising up: by releasing free mixtapes. Even as some folks insist that giving away music means no new rap stars, you can make a pretty big list of new rap stars who came on the scene by releasing music for free -- and Mac Miller did it better than just about anyone. In fact, a few months ago, I was talking to a big time record label guy (very closely associated with the RIAA), who told me that Mac Miller debuting at number one was one of the three biggest stories of 2011, and showed that the industry was really about to embrace new models.

And, of course, it's quite common for those mixtapes to involve some sort of infringement, but generally no one has a problem with this (unless you're clueless legacy entertainment industry players), especially since these mixtapes are all given away for free, and generally do help promote those other works. It's really become the "new radio" in hip hop.

But there's always someone who lets jealousy get in the way. That appears to be the case with Robert Hall, better known as the rapper Loud Finesse, who had a hit in 1995 called "Hip 2 Da Game." You may remember it:
It turns out that one of the songs Mac Miller released for his mixtape was called Kool Aid & Frozen Pizza, which has him rapping over the same music track:

The lyrics are entirely different, but the music is obviously the same.

Note, again, that this song was given away for free in a YouTube video and mixtape. It was never sold. It's not on Miller's album. But, jealousy rears its ugly head and Lord Finesse has now sued Miller and his label, Rostrum, and the popular mixtape site DatPiff.com for $10 million -- and the fact that this is all about jealousy is pretty clear from the details of the lawsuit. It points out that Miller got famous, in part, because of his mixtape and thus Finesse seems to think that Miller needs to pay him for getting famous. Once again, he's being sued for $10 million, because of a song which he never sold.

Of course, if you know anything at all about hip hop, you know that its roots came from rappers building on the works of others, taking rhythms and beats and putting new lyrics over them. What many consider to be the very first popular hip hop song, "Rapper's Delight," by the Sugarhill Gang, came about when they rapped over "Good Times" by Chic.

So, you might wonder, does Lord Finesse have a history of building on the works of others? Glad you asked. Why yes, he does. He's widely sampled other artists. Oh, and the music in Hip 2 Da Game? You guessed it. Sampled. It's from Oscar Peterson's excellent jazz song, "Dream of You." Tragically, there doesn't seem to be a YouTube version of that up, but if you have Spotify, you can listen to it here:

Hip hop artist/commentator on culture and copyright, Dan Bull, found this whole situation pretty ridiculous and decided to do what he does best: write and perform a song about it. And, better yet, he did so using the same musical backing track from Finesse... er... Peterson.

This is actually interesting at a variety of levels (and equally unfortunate at a number of levels). The mixtape culture and building on the works of others is really pretty core to the hip hop world. There's a mostly unspoken agreement just within the culture that as long as you're not selling the tracks, it's encouraged to take the rhythms from another and build on it. Going against those social norms which have been pretty strongly developed over the past decade plus, is really hitting back against the basic rules that the community has established for itself, outside of what copyright allows.

In fact, the hip hop mixtape/blog world has been fascinating to watch over the past few years, in part because it actually shows how cultural norms can often set the rules for how these things work, without having to fall back on copyright laws at all. Basic social pressure can often keep most people in line. But when one breaks those social norms -- whether because of jealousy, or because they think there's a quick profit to be earned -- it can come back to haunt them.

That said, there's actually an interesting tie-in to another story we wrote about recently, discussing innovation vs. permission as frameworks for how progress should occur. While we were mostly talking about technology/entrepreneurial innovation, it clearly applies to creativity as well. All sorts of music creations came about because of innovation without permission. Soul music, jazz music, hip-hop and rock-and-roll all exist basically because of people deciding to innovate by building on the works of someone else without permission. Trying to shove a permission based system into that creates massive chilling effects and limits the kind of great music that can be created. Copyright is supposed to be about promoting progress, and yet, once again, it's used to hold it back.

Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.

Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.

While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.

–The Techdirt Team

Filed Under: dan bull, hip-hop, loud finesse, mac miller, mixtapes, oscar peterson, robert hall, sampling

44 Comments

If you liked this post, you may also be interested in...

Reader Comments

Subscribe: RSS

View by: Time | Thread

Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2012 @ 3:31pm

Looks like lord Finesse drinks the RIAA kool aid
[ link to this | view in thread ]
farooge (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 3:47pm

Was it J?
MMMiiikkeee

I love this and I ...think... I remember it (I'm 40)

THANK YOU
[ link to this | view in thread ]
al, 12 Jul 2012 @ 3:48pm

WHO "Loud Finesse" Again WHO?, OH Now I Know, (I'm suprised Barb hasn't Copyrighted this term) (Streisand Effect)). So who owns the copyright of the track, anyone care, mostly WHO cares. I think this was just publicity for "WHO". No really WHO was it again? Horton did you here that? Nevermind.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
farooge (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 3:48pm

Re: Was it J?
My bad ... the Sugerhill Vid
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2012 @ 3:54pm

That was pretty gutsy or stupid by Dan Bull. Either he will get sued too or Lord Finesse has absolutely no case. Given that there are commercials and therefore money involved in some posting of videos on youtube, this could get ugly.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
al, 12 Jul 2012 @ 3:58pm

WHO "Loud Finesse" Again WHO?, OH Now I Know, (I'm suprised Barb hasn't Copyrighted this term) (Streisand Effect)). So who owns the copyright of the track, anyone care, mostly WHO cares. I think this was just publicity for "WHO". No really WHO was it again? Horton did you here that? Nevermind.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
dwg (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 3:59pm

Re:
Gutsy and brilliant, is what it was. It's putting the heart of the thing right up front, so if Finesse wants to press his case, he has to do it against not just legal wranglers and talking heads, but against a real artist who spits dope IP lyrics.

I don't believe he wanna battle.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Karim, 12 Jul 2012 @ 4:00pm

Brain fart
Looks like lord Finesse drinks the RIAA kool aid

Nah. I think this is a classic case of "being a dick". If RIAA koolade is what he was on then he would be suing Oscar Peterson.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Karim, 12 Jul 2012 @ 4:01pm

Re: Brain fart
Bloody hell, I failed at simple formatting again (sorry).
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Vog (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 4:16pm

See, I am Pirate Mike and I'd like to say hello.

To the new, to the free, the old and the wrong,
the pirates and shill trolls.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
dwg (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 4:27pm

Re:
This is so bad that you're going to have to give a citation for anyone to get the joke.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Lozine, 12 Jul 2012 @ 4:55pm

dam dis foo ned 2 be more hip 2 da game
[ link to this | view in thread ]
farooge (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 5:19pm

Re:
yea, (what?) you said, i think

"shill trolls" ... please 'citate' b/c i don't
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That One Guy (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 5:44pm

Oh the irony
So he's suing someone for 10 million for using the background music of one of 'his' songs, and it turns out that 'his' music was actually from another artist as well.

I wonder how much he paid Oscar Peterson for the music that he's now suing over? I'm going to take a wild guess that it was probably either nothing at all, or a gorram lot less than 10 million.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Vog (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 5:54pm

Re: Re:
I didn't think something that was linked in the article would be that obscure, even if I thought my joke was that far off from the song lyrics.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2012 @ 6:33pm

"Even as some folks insist that giving away music means no new rap stars"

Wow, talk about trying to draw you own conclusions.

Rap is one of those things that is ENTIRELY built on stealing other people's work and re-using it without permission. Why in a society that seems to have not problem with stealing other people's work should there be an issue?

Rappers are like roaches, they will survive any nuclear event.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2012 @ 6:38pm

Re:
Looks like fair use to me.

If the primary purpose and effect is the expression of criticism, it's kind of difficult to see how it could be forbidden without also being a prohibition on a form of form of free speech and appropriately protected expression. If a side effect is some profit for someone, that does not seem sufficient to me to nullify the need to protect such expression in order to uphold the right to free speech.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2012 @ 6:48pm

Re: Re:
English motherfucker, rappers don't speak it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2012 @ 6:51pm

Re:
It's called hypocrisy. "Freedom for me but not for you bitches"
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That Anonymous Coward (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 7:19pm

Re: Oh the irony
I am guessing the difference is Mac Miller was successful, and this other troll was not.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 12 Jul 2012 @ 7:29pm

Re:
"That was pretty gutsy or stupid by Dan Bull."

it's neither, it's being an attention whore, which is really his job. He's just trying to attach his boat to the controversy of the day, trying to keep himself in the front of your minds.

It's what he does.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Leigh Beadon (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 9:39pm

Re:
"Even as some folks insist that giving away music means no new rap stars"

Wow, talk about trying to draw you own conclusions.

Are you addressing the "some people"? Because yes - nobody here was asserting that's true. It's clearly ridiculous. Rap is, as you say, based on the use of other stuff without permission - perhaps more purely and directly so than any other genre of music.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Leigh Beadon (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 9:48pm

Re: Re:
Tell me - how do you distinguish between an attention whore and someone who actually believes what they say? And... how exactly do you think you could possibly pass the same test?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
JMT (profile), 12 Jul 2012 @ 10:57pm

Re:
"Rappers are like roaches, they will survive any nuclear event."

Well the concept of "stealing other people's work and re-using it without permission" is how human culture developed for hundreds of thousands of years until the damned lawyers got involved a couple of hundred years ago. So you're right, this fundamental part of how culture develops will not be going away any time soon. Hopefully the lawyers will though.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Bas Grasmayer (profile), 13 Jul 2012 @ 1:34am

What a shame.

I respect Lord Finesse for what he meant for hiphop... but he hasn't made anything great in years, much like most other rappers from his era. So he decides to sue and make money that way.

Lame. You'd think these oldschool guys would have a more thorough understanding of Hiphop culture.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2012 @ 2:25am

Re: Re: Re:
It's a little like the judge said about obscenity, I know it when I see it.

Dan Bull may or may not believe in what he says, but he appears to often to be trying to jump in front of bandwagons (sort of like Mike Masnick does).

Somewhere, it crosses the line from concerned citizen to attention whore. Dan may be part of the former, but he appears solidly in the latter as well.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2012 @ 2:26am

Re: Re:
Yeah, thankfully we moved out of the caves and no longer have such primitive views on things, right?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Leigh Beadon (profile), 13 Jul 2012 @ 6:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
It's a very convenient (but quite transparent and ineffective) way of trying to discredit people you don't like.

Dan has views you disagree with. You apparently can't handle that - it drives you nuts. So much so that you can't even admit he actually has those views. You have to try to discredit them - "oh he's just an attention whore"

Now you're the hero again! You're fighting the good fight and the only people who disagree with you are doing it for attention! Feels good, right? Yeah, but nobody's buying it...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2012 @ 7:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I am not passing judgement on the people. Why do you get that feeling? Are you trying to put words in my mouth again?

Dan Bull shows up at the front of every "movement" these days... he's pretty much attention whoring. It's my opinion, can you handle that? Or do you feel the need to tell me what my opinion should be too?

You are a laugh a minute.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Lord Binky, 13 Jul 2012 @ 7:41am

Another reason permission systems fail... It's because business decisions are being based on how people 'feel', which is impossible to make into a consistant system much less write rules for how people will 'feel' in the future so you are able to predict the result which is important for things like budgets or most business functions...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2012 @ 8:14am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Calling people attention whores is not passing judgement now?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2012 @ 8:18am

I'd be pissed too if somebody used my work to promote theirs.

Now in this case, Loud Finesse has been doing what this new rapper did: remixing other's work to promote his own, therefore he's not in a position to complain.

But in general, I'm fine with people acquiring my work for free, but I draw the line at making money off it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Leigh Beadon (profile), 13 Jul 2012 @ 8:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"I'm not passing judgement, I'm just saying he is motivated by a need for attention and is only paying lip service to the issues."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 13 Jul 2012 @ 9:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yup, I have an opinion. What a shock!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
dennis, 13 Jul 2012 @ 9:55am

Re: Re: Re:
I could be wrong, but I doubt that neither Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides nor Aristophanes lived in a cave. Plato told a crackling good story about one, though. I know that Shakespeare, whoever he was apart from the most brazen thief of Intellectual Property before uncle Walt, did not live in a cave. The opera composers of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries most likely had splendid urban digs, being for the most part closely associated with aristocratic patrons. Those gangstas ripped off each others' tunes wholesale. More recently, Disney himself, who absconded with huge massive piles of our common culture to stash in his secret underground freezer, keeps cool at absolute zero -- wait, quite possibly in a cave come to think of it -- I don't really know where he's refrigerated.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
S7, 13 Jul 2012 @ 11:58am

Re:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapper%27s_delight

"see i am wonder mike and i like to say hello
to the black, to the white, the red, and the brown, the purple and yellow"
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Colin, 13 Jul 2012 @ 2:32pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
People said the same thing about MLK Jr. True story.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
bob loblaw, 15 Jul 2012 @ 6:46am

couple things. sugarhill gang did not rap over good times, they rapped over a band replaying the music from good times. small, but important distinction.

secondly, although i don't have the info in front of me at the moment, finesse has made a career out of sampling and not clearing those samples. so this is just bullshit.

and for all you armchair lawyers, it does not matter that mac miller did not make a penny off of this. it's a little thing every content creator has called a 'moral clause'; look into it, it will destroy all these 'but he didn't make any money off of it' arguments.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2012 @ 5:38am

Link to "Dream of You" by Oscar Peterson:

http://grooveshark.com/#!/s/Dream+Of+You/3ckWl2?src=5
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Cheap Grillz, 21 Sep 2012 @ 8:07pm

Rappers let their grillz do the talking. You already know.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 11 Jul 2013 @ 4:19pm

What a load of crap. Remix is the only way that music can be original nowadays as mostly everything has been done already. There's no reason for this has-been nobody to be picking on a newer artist who got successful doing what he couldn't. Copyright law is such a joke anyway.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
mosleyjennifer10 (profile), 7 Feb 2014 @ 10:28pm

imacland
Four new games added to the Bundle today,including Bastion and Limbo for best email service for mac
[ link to this | view in thread ]
dhdujeud, 7 Aug 2014 @ 3:20am

U lot r crazy, dont comment on someone u know nothing about. Do u know who finesse is one of the greatest to ever touch the mic. You sound dumb dissing him in an attempt to stand up for Miller when he has respect and no beef with finesse. You know nothing about the hip hop culture, so stay away from it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Hella Classics, 20 Dec 2014 @ 4:50pm

copyright
Well that's unfortunate.
[ link to this | view in thread ]