For All The Talk From Hollywood About Making Sure People Get Paid, Why Doesn't It Pay Interns?

from the because-it's-never-been-about-getting-anyone-paid-by-studio-bosses dept

Thu, Oct 25th 2012 9:19am — Mike Masnick

We hear the refrain from the entertainment industry all the time, about how they are fighting against modern technology because without it, people don't get paid, and how unfair is that? The RIAA's Cary Sherman keeps talking about all those lost jobs (even though his math doesn't add up), and talking about all the people the movie industry "employs" (exaggerated by an order of magnitude) has become a key part of the MPAA boss Chris Dodd's stump speech.

So, isn't it interesting that the entertainment industry may be facing a potentially big class action problem... for not paying interns? Apparently, it's quite common for entertainment industry heavyweights to take on unpaid interns, usually eager kids hoping to "break into" the business. But, federal law (and the key state laws) are pretty explicit in noting that "free" internships are almost always illegal for for-profit companies.

Now, to be clear, I actually don't think free internships -- entered into willingly -- should be illegal (just as I don't think there's anything wrong with people volunteering to do stuff for free). But if Hollywood is running around whining about getting more people paid... it seems pretty hypocritical to then not pay people working for you.

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Filed Under: class action lawsuit, hollywood, interns, movie industry, paying

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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:21am

Because they're interns, you fucking buffoon.

Are you paying people to write for this silly blog?
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Buffoon, 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:22am

Re:
But, federal law (and the key state laws) are pretty explicit in noting that "free" internships are almost always illegal for for-profit companies.

Idiot. Cant read huh?
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Silly rabbit, 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:24am

trix are for kids
" illegal for for-profit companies. "

Duh, Star wars has still not turned a profit. Movies dont make money. They do them for fun.
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Lord Binky, 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:27am

If they don't get paid I doubt they get reimbursed for picking up the drycleaning or running to the starbucks in the lobby either.

It's best to get them used to being taken advantage of early so they never know better.
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Keroberos (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:30am

Re: Re:
He/she's a troll. And the first lesson in troll school is to never, ever, read--because if you read, you will learn, and you can't be an effective troll if you learn anything.
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MrWilson, 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:31am

Re: Re:
"Idiot. Cant read huh?"

Maybe the AC's unpaid intern didn't read the whole article to him before he dictated his response to be posted in the comments...?
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Zakida Paul (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:32am

Re:
How much do Hollywood pay you to be an idiot? You useless inbred arse hole.
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MrWilson, 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:34am

Re:
"usually eager kids hoping to "break into" the business"

So they can become under-paid professionals whose jet-setting Cayman Island-hoarding bosses provide the "but...but...piracy!" excuse every time they ask for their residuals.
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Keroberos (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:35am

Re: trix are for kids
Fail. They would have to file for non-profit status. Just because a company doesn't make a profit doesn't make it a non-profit.
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Silly rabbit, 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:40am

Re: Re: trix are for kids
- T H W A P ! ! !- There. Your sarc meter should work properly now.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:40am

Isn't the next question...
Why are unpaid internships valuable for getting exposure and knowledge, but free contributions by artists, authors, etc. are somehow parasitic?

You're pointing out the hypocrisy, I'm wondering if we can ever get them to acknowledge that there is at least one form of "free" that actually is valuable to the "free" contributor. Then it's just a slippery slope away from boo-yah...
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Lord Binky, 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:51am

Re: Re:
I might believe the piracy excuse too if I was told that's why I didn't get a bonus but my boss got a multi-million bonus.
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Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:56am

Re: Isn't the next question can you not read at all or did you just get bored after the first sentance?
Now, to be clear, I actually don't think free internships -- entered into willingly -- should be illegal (just as I don't think there's anything wrong with people volunteering to do stuff for free). But if Hollywood is running around whining about getting more people paid... it seems pretty hypocritical to then not pay people working for you.
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Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 9:59am

Re: Re: Isn't the next question can you not read at all or did you just get bored after the first sentance?
Doh! Did it to myself... reading comprehension fail due to tiredness... ignore above.
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Ophelia Millais (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 10:12am

So will Hollywood take the high road and implement a union/university-like, in-house dispute resolution system that interns can use, or will they take the unethical route and simply make all their interns (and every other underling) sign agreements to arbitrate any disputes individually?
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MRK, 25 Oct 2012 @ 10:19am

If you don't think unpaid internships should be illegal, then you have to ask yourself:

Should there be a minimum wage?

Should there be a maximum number of hours an unpaid intern should work in a week?

Should the internship be unpaid even if the person was coerced into entering it? Example: Many schools require an internship as as a graduation requirement.

If an intern is from a foreign country, do they need a work visa if they are unpaid?

Can interns work unpaid as a means of working off a debt?

Should any agreement between two people enter into willingly be legal?
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zoidberg, 25 Oct 2012 @ 10:23am

Because Piracy
Of course Hollywood would love to pay everyone. That's never been in question. But, at the current levels of piracy there's no way they can afford to do so.

You can't on one claw say, "Everything should be free" and then on the other claw complain "More people should be paid."

Shirley, you must see the dilemma in this!
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Nathan F (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 10:30am

Re: Re: Re:
Isn't that a bit contradictory? Can't read anything because you would learn something, but your going to school to learn something?

:)
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gnudist, 25 Oct 2012 @ 10:30am

Re: Re:
Pff n00bs. I can break into the business with just a few good sized rocks.

Pays well
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 10:36am

Re:
Ironically, Foxconn Interns get paid.. link

These Foxconn �interns� get paid the same starting salaries as others who start at the plants.

So I guess RIAA/MPAA really are worse than Chinese factories.
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Robot rabbi, 25 Oct 2012 @ 10:37am

Re: Because Piracy
NO SELLFISH
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 10:43am

Re:
Because they're interns, you fucking buffoon.

Are you paying people to write for this silly blog?

Agreed. It's whiny, hate-fueled, straw man posts like this that, unfortunately, keep Techdirt at the fringe. Why does Mike feel the need to publish such substanceless nonsense? Just because they don't pay interns, a common practice that Mike himself (for obvious, self-related reasons) approves of doesn't diminish from their belief that professionals, who don't agree to give it away for free, should get paid. This article is so dumb and desperate, that I honestly can't understand why Mike wrote it. How desperate is he? How stupid and silly is his hatred of the MPAA. I'm sorry, but the fact that he publishes shit like this is just pathetic.
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Baldaur Regis (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 10:51am

Re: Re:
Don't be so elliptical. Tell us how you really feel.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 10:52am

Re: Re:
So I guess RIAA/MPAA really are worse than Chinese factories.

That presupposes that a company that pays its interns is "better" than one that doesn't. What rubbish. If an intern agrees to work for free, then there's nothing wrong with Mike. Mike even concedes this very point. How fucking desperate is he that he faults them for not living up to a standard that he admits is no big deal not to live up to?
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DogBreath, 25 Oct 2012 @ 10:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I've found that if you just think like a citizen of Bizarro World, then trolls make perfect sense.

First lesson in Bizarro (Troll) School: If you read and understand the lesson, you automatically get a failing grade.
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DogBreath, 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:04am

Re: Because Piracy
Dr. Zoidberg: This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it., said no one in Hollywood ever.
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Mesonoxian Eve (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:09am

Re:
Hi Cary! Or is it Chris?

Sorry. When you post under AC, it's really hard to tell you two apart.
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RD, 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:11am

Who gets paid?
"For All The Talk From Hollywood About Making Sure People Get Paid, Why Doesn't It Pay Interns?"
-from the because-it's-never-been-about-getting-anyone-paid-EXCEPT-studio-bosses dept-

ftfy
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bob, 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:17am

Why don't you pay comment authors?
I'm personally responsible for many page views, all by injecting some new and interesting opinions.

The argument is all about people having control over their work. If anyone feels like giving away their work, that's their business.

The complaint from the artists is that folks like Big Search come along and just start making money with other people's work. They don't bother to negotiate at all or even ask permission.

It's all about being polite. At least the studios are polite and they ask whether people want to give away their work for free.
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gnudist, 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:19am

Re: Re: Re:
Not missing mike's point is fun, you should try it sometime.

The RIAA always talks about how artists *must* get paid and are only harmed when others benefit for free, yet still act as if unpaid internships are good.

See the contridiction yet?
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Rikuo (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:20am

Re: Re:
Let me spell it out for you.

Hollywood whines all the time about people disrespecting copyright because, as they say, people will lose jobs. To keep on saying this, while not paying a certain group of employees, at the very least looks hypocritical, if it actually isn't.
Surely if they actually were that worried about the income of those at the bottom of the food chain, those people would actually have an income, no?
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Lowestofthekeys (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:20am

Re: Re: Re:
Good companies don't get sued for not paying their interns, you completely missed that point as you're just here to sling insults.
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Lowestofthekeys (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:21am

Re: Re:
"The article is so dumb and desperate..."

And yet, here you are commenting on it.
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Lowestofthekeys (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:25am

Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
"I'm personally responsible for many page views, all by injecting some new and interesting opinions. "

Mmhahahahahahahaha..err..mmm...ugh I just laughed so hard I knocked the wind out of myself.

The rest of your post is sort of off-topic, which is not really conducive to new or interesting opinions, bob.
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Rikuo (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:25am

Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
Bob, methinks you haven't got the slightest idea what being polite means. Your comment history here proves it.

Now I want you to use what most other people have (a brain) and do a hypothetical scenario. Let's pretend you are a mega-star author. You're more famous than Stephen King, Tolkien and CS Lewis put together. You've written a dozen books and they've made you a fortune.
Now, let's pretend that we live in a world where permission is needed for every single instance of someone wanting to use your work. Here's my question: Would you want to be chained to your computer, answering 5 million emails every day from people asking for permission to quote your works in, say, an essay for school?
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Rikuo (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:27am

Re: Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
Well, I'll agree with bob on the "responsible for many page views". He's responsible for many people, like me, being unable to resist tearing apart everything he says.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:34am

Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
What exactly is Big Search giving away for free? I don't recall anything being made available from their servers. I thought they were just a big giant digital address book...
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ChrisB (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:39am

Re:
No, no, no, yes, sure, yes.

The question is should you carpet the world or wear slippers. Adults should not be protected from themselves.
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Greevar (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:47am

Re:
The laws are, that unpaid interns are there for one purpose: to learn their vocation. They are not there to do work for the company and help them earn a profit. If an unpaid intern is doing work that generates a profit for the company, they must be paid a comparable wage to what an entry level employee would receive. Otherwise, they are illegally exploiting people for profit. Furthermore, it would unfairly displace professionals that merit higher compensation, even paid interns cannot be allowed to displace them.

What an unpaid intern is supposed to be doing is receiving mentoring from the experienced professionals of the company as to learn to be more proficient at their particular vocation. All their work is to be educational and is not for the company's benefit, except to be a potential future employee of equal merit after graduation. To use unpaid interns in for-profit work is to place them into servitude through deception or coercion.

Interns are not free labor you can use or abuse at your whim you "fucking buffoon." It is a valuable step in the educational process.
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Greevar (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:53am

Re:
"Can interns work unpaid as a means of working off a debt?"

You just described indentured servitude, which is illegal in the US.
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Ed C., 25 Oct 2012 @ 11:56am

Re: Because Piracy
AAAHAHAHAHA!
AAAHAHAHAHA!
AAAHAHAHAHA!
AAAHAHAHAHA!
AAAHAHAHAHA!
AAAHAHAHAHA!
AAAHAHAHAHA!
AA AHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait, you're serious? I guess that if you ignore facts like Hollywood is still making record profits, or even productions from the world's most successful movie franchises that existed long before the dawn of the modern Internet made billions beyond all real cost but have yet to "turn a profit", then you might make the argument that piracy has anything what so ever to do with it. But then, of course, you run the risk of people laughing hysterically every time you speak.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:01pm

Re: Re: Re:
Truthfully, this article is what reads as trolling. Blatant hitpiece on a the creative industries and a practice no one objects to including the author.

Slow week apparently means posting incendiary material to drum up traffic.
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Greevar (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:03pm

Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
And do you apply the same criminality to the local phone directory if they list a residence that is a known crack house? Companies like Google or your local phone company provide a service. That service is taking publicly available information and collating it into easy to comprehend formats. It is the job of any such service to make it harder to access information because another special interest doesn't like it being found. They are in the business of making it accessible, not hiding it.
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gorehound (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
And the MAFIAA also short changes their Artists.
Boycott the MAFIAA
Support & Buy Local & Indie Art

Fuck Hollywood !
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Greevar (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:13pm

Re: Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
"It is* the job of any such service to make it harder"
*isn't
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Ed C., 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:14pm

Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
Since you have YET to figure it out, Google doesn't make a cent off other people's content. They give their listings away for FREE by selling ADVERTISING. You know, just like phonebook publishers have been doing since before the Internet even existed. They've been making money off your personal information for decades without your permission, so why are you not railing against BIG BOOK?
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George Zimmer (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:17pm

Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
Hi Bob, I'm George Zimmer, Founder and CEO of Men's Wearhouse.

I'm going to be honest with you bob, when my interns go off-topic like this, it usually warrants a skull-crushing via my salmon-tinted meat porpoise. I guarantee it.
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silverscarcat (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:19pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Blatant hitpiece on a the creative industries and a practice no one objects to"

I object to it.

It should be illegal.

What are we?

Cambodia?
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Lowestofthekeys (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Oh, so you must have missed the part where people have decided to sue these studios for not paying them?

People getting paid for work is definitely not important, right?
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Ed C., 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:22pm

Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
It's all about being polite. At least the studios are polite and they ask whether people want to give away their work for free.

Sure, taking people's work while almost never the royalties they contractually agreed to might be considered "polite"--about as polite as a pit bull kindly growls before biting you.
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lucidrenegade (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:24pm

Re: Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
I LOL'd
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Ed C., 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:30pm

Re: Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
Sure, taking people's work while almost never paying the royalties they contractually agreed to might be considered "polite"--about as polite as a pit bull that kindly growls before biting you.
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Ed C., 25 Oct 2012 @ 12:37pm

Re: Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
He probably expects people to ask him permission to fuck off. I'm sure he gets plenty of those polite emails everyday.
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The Real Michael, 25 Oct 2012 @ 1:27pm

Re: Re:
"You just described indentured servitude, which is illegal in the US."

That is until someone signs a record label contract...
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zoidberg, 25 Oct 2012 @ 1:36pm

Re: Re: Because Piracy
Oh wait, you're serious?

Sure, but who is foolish enough to fly into what we all keep calling a death sphere?
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 2:13pm

This thread is hilarious. All the usual foaming at the mouth by the pirate-types and no acknowledgement that Masnick doesn't pay the other zealots that write for this "for profit" enterprise.

This place is consistently the center for hypocrisy on the web.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 2:28pm

Re:
When Masnick starts demanding laws to protect his enterprise, we'll care plenty.
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Kelly (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 2:41pm

I've never understood how anyone could want to work for free "just for the experience" or how any company in its right mind would want unpaid interns running about. After all, if you're too broke to pay interns, then you're a bad investment. If you're just too big a jerk to pay interns, then you're probably cooking the books in other ways and aren't trustworthy.
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Ed C., 25 Oct 2012 @ 2:43pm

Re:
"pirate-types"? You when the ones who take an artist work for personal profit and doesn't pay them royalties? Yeah, we don't care for the labels either, but I hardly see how that proves your point.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 2:49pm

the ones who take an artist work for personal profit and doesn't pay them royalties?

?? It must be fun to make shit up.

I'm gonna try that.

I'm Batman.

Yes, that is indeed fun.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 3:24pm

Re:
It's not wrong do something if the only reason you think it wrong for someone else to do is because they calm to be opposed to it, which of course is the real hypocrisy.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 3:32pm

Re:
Actually that's not made up. Or should we point out that Eminem had to sue to get royalties owed him? Royalties that were changed from "license" to "sale" as it suited the label to pay him less. Kenny Rogers owed $80,000 in royalties?Return of the Jedi STILL not profitable. And so on and so forth.

Yes, it's only made up if you ignore reality. As you appear to do. But the stories and evidence proves it's very much a reality that routinely takes place, and one where you and yours are happy wagging your fingers at pirates and crying to the high heavens over non-provable losses but at the same time go out of the way to genuinely cheat artists out of money they are owed.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 4:00pm

Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
bob just made the jump from stupid to stupid AND egoistic.

Do you think people will only click on pages to view them if you respond to them? How do you propose this occurs? "Oh, I don't think bob is going to leave his wisdom behind on this story; it's clearly not worth my time"?

Oh, and to the chumps who like to claim "reporting = censorship", as of writing I am responding to a flagged post. Portraying reported posts as irretrievable and unreadable is disingenuous lying, and you know it.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 4:27pm

Re: Re:
Supposedly involutary servitude is illegal in the US too, as per the 13th amendment, but that didn't stop the government from instituting military drafts.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 4:35pm

Re: Because Piracy
Remember the anti-piracy ad in which people in the movie industry would ask things like, "How am I supposed to...pay for my glasses?", etc. Of course, what those ads never mention is the fact that by the time the movie is released those people have long since been paid.
I don't think they've been waiting around a year or so to receive a paycheck.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 4:39pm

Re: Re: Re:
*involuntary
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 4:42pm

Re: Re:
No.

No, not "so and so forth".

If they never paid those that work for them they wouldn't be allowed to stay in business.

You're trying to incorrectly paint an entire industry with a tinyl brush because you think it might allow you to rationalize ripping off creative people.

It doesn't.

You're
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 5:25pm

Re: Re: Re:
>If they never paid those that work for them they wouldn't be allowed to stay in business.

So you're saying that as long as some people get paid (you might not even need most people to be paid), it's perfectly alright for a few payments to be missed?

And please - the RIAA is the champion of whining to courts that whatever happens, they deserve to stay in business and all competing technology must be shut down, or otherwise impeded. It's funny how judges can be convinced to look the other way when you lobby hard enough.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 5:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
No, no. On the recording industries, not the creative industries. The RIAA/MPAA are about as creative as a cow's rear end, and produce much the same stuff. If you want to talk about the creative industry, talk about the creators, not the middle-men.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 5:45pm

Re:
For-profit enterprise? I think you're on the wrong site for that. What you're looking for is Floor64, his business, not TechDirt, his opinion blog.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 6:25pm

Re: Re:
LOL

What does Floor64 do besides get paid by Google to lobby against IP?
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cosmicrat, 25 Oct 2012 @ 6:53pm

Done that as long as I can remember
The movie / indie film / whatever has always used volunteer labor. Since long before the 15 years I've been in it. The smaller budget projects have to just to get done, and the big players do it because hey can. On union shows the roles interns can play are tightly controlled but on non-union it's anything goes. People are willing to work without pay because so many people want to get into the film business.

Theoretical question: how is someone working for free on a big studio show different from someone working for free/spec (same thing in my experience) on a low budg indie/kickstarter/whatever project?
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 7:03pm

Re: Re: Because Piracy
Don't call me Shirley and surely you mean shellfish?
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 7:04pm

Re: Re: Re: Because Piracy
someone with a death spiral wish?
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 7:06pm

Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
so...techdirt would fold if it wasn't for bobo. Thank Allah he keeps coming back.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 7:09pm

Re: Re: Re:
if you're that drunk wait'll you sober up to spit your vitriol
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Oct 2012 @ 7:10pm

Re: Done that as long as I can remember
maybe because a big studio shits money
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btrussell (profile), 25 Oct 2012 @ 8:26pm

Re: Why don't you pay comment authors?
"I'm personally responsible for many page views, all by injecting some new and interesting opinions."

LOL

Yes, I have you on my reader. Every time you comment I get a notification.

LOL
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2012 @ 12:41am

Re:
well we know for a fact that the big studios don't cook books, so they must be broke. just take a look at their balance sheets. very few movies ever manage to make a profit.
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Niall (profile), 26 Oct 2012 @ 6:24am

Re: Re:
I'd go with:

Yes, yes, no, yes, that would be a form of payment but should still be limited, within the bounds of reason and the law.

You don't have to carpet all the world, but it saves a lot of hassle if you don't have to deal with people bleeding and falling over everywhere. Unless you are advocating an extreme 'social darwinian' position?
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Niall (profile), 26 Oct 2012 @ 7:49am

Re: Re: Re:
If Floor64 is being 'paid' by Google to 'lobby against IP' then Google must be wasting their money, as I fail to see anything actually lobbying against IP. If you want frothing-at-the-mouth rants with no substance but only the corporate overlord mistaken talking points, go look at the RIAA sites for examples. Or any of bob's rants...
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Thomas, 5 Dec 2012 @ 9:48am

Is it actually normal for interns to get paid? Not at my job at least.
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jeansonbelly, 15 Jan 2013 @ 5:27pm

making mone online
John Chow best known for showing the income power of blogging by taking my blog from zero to over $40,000 per month in two years. His Review is what are you looking for? Visit JohnChowBlogging.com for more information. or Peng Joon credibility, SCAM not Even The Real Deal. Let me state clearly the..Making Mone Online Best Blogging Tips
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jeansonbelly, 15 Jan 2013 @ 5:27pm

making mone online
John Chow best known for showing the income power of blogging by taking my blog from zero to over $40,000 per month in two years. His Review is what are you looking for? Visit JohnChowBlogging.com for more information. or Peng Joon credibility, SCAM not Even The Real Deal. Let me state clearly the..Making Mone Online Best Blogging Tips
[ link to this | view in thread ]