EFF Gets Secret Interpretation Of FISA Spying Law... And It's Almost Entirely Redacted

from the but-not-completely dept

Mon, Jan 14th 2013 7:26am — Mike Masnick

We've talked about the absolute ridiculousness of having a secret interpretation of a US law on surveillance such that the law actually means something different than what most people (including the politicians voting on it) think it means -- and yet the secret law remains in place for entirely secret reasons. The EFF, as part of an ongoing dispute over all of this, had submitted a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request concerning some testimony on that secret interpretation, and it got back a "relevant" document... which as almost entirely redacted. Here's a sample page.

Much of it is blocked as "non-responsive" but the "responsive" section is basically entirely blacked out. The only text of the entire document that's available (other than the cover page) is:

The Government has provided copies of the opinions and the filings by the Government to this Committee, and the Government will continue to inform the Committee about developments in this manner.

It's ridiculous to continue arguing -- as Senator Dianne Feinstein has done repeatedly -- that there is no secret law here. She's being deliberately misleading, confusing "the law" with "the legislation." The legislation is the text as written by the legislature, but "the law" includes specific rulings by courts on the legislation. The legislation may be public, but the law is not when the rather important interpretations of the legislation remain completely redacted.

NSD FOIA Response (PDF)NSD FOIA Response (Text)

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Filed Under: fisa, foia, redacted

36 Comments

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Paul Brinker, 14 Jan 2013 @ 7:47am

Ignorance of the law is no excuse
If I am taken to court, can I please Ignorance given the law was specifically not released to the public? The old adage is Ignorance of the law is no excuse, yet if a law is secret, then the default state is ignorance, thus is the law then not a law anymore?
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- WysiWyg (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:00am
  
  Re: Ignorance of the law is no excuse
  Should they charge you under that specific law, then I guess so. Then again, that law only apply to the government ant it's agencies (as I have understood it), so you probably CAN'T brake it.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 9:14am
    
    Re: Re: Ignorance of the law is no excuse
    But can any breach of this law get consequences? I am thinking, "Quis custodiet ipsos Custodes" or "Who watches the watchmen?"
    
    Unless you can elect politicians for the committee enforcing the law, the law basically has no meaning. Even a politically appointed committee of politicians is a problematic construction unless there is some kind of reports available for the public and that will never happen!
    
    Not even going to mention the insanity of letting politicians carry highly classified information. If you do, you are devaluing the information or corrupting the politician to not reason freely and thus removing even more credibility of the politicians, if they had any to begin with!
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- Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:13am
  
  Re: Ignorance of the law is no excuse
  In the case of FISA, the secrecy means that congress cannot hold the they cannot control the agencies they are meant to control because they do not know what they are allowed to do. They cannot even determine if they are telling the truth when they claim the court cleared their actions as being legal. The secret court decision has given the security services a carte blanche with respect to surveillance.
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- Josef Anvil (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:29am
  
  Re: Ignorance of the law is no excuse
  If you are detained under the secret interpretation of this law, you can be assured that you won't be pleading anything. You'll be considered a terrorist and disappeared.
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- demgreen, 14 Jan 2013 @ 9:08am
  
  Re: Ignorance of the law is no excuse
  If you commit an offense, do you become part of the secret and get redacted also?
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  - Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 1:07pm
    
    Re: Re: Ignorance of the law is no excuse
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvlaojjyTWY
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- That One Guy (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 9:23am
  
  Re: Ignorance of the law is no excuse
  You make the mistaken assumption that they actually have to tell you what you're being charged with. These days they can just hand-wave that 'inconvenience' away by uttering the magic words 'national security' or by invoking any of the other 'laws are for the peons, not the ones in charge' laws.
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  - Paul Brinker, 14 Jan 2013 @ 9:58am
    
    Re: Re: Ignorance of the law is no excuse
    Of course, I cant even tell you your charges because of National Security, as such you are sentenced to death by vivisection, your trial will be next week.
    
    Got to love Kardasian law, assumed guilty till proven to be a martyr
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    - Forge, 14 Jan 2013 @ 2:25pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: Ignorance of the law is no excuse
      "Cardassian" is the Star Trek Fascist race. "Kardashians" are the other repugnant assholes.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 7:48am

maybe the reason Senator Dianne Feinstein was so forceful in getting the FISA term extended is that she has her own 'secret interpretation' of the bill? that would explain a little of why she lied through her teeth over it.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 7:54am

The only secret that they didn't kept secret is the fact that theyre keeping the secret a secret.
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- Rikuo (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 7:57am
  
  Re:
  My brain exploded upon reading that.
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- Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:19am
  
  Re:
  How much wood could a woodchuck chuck...
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  - Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:22am
    
    Re: Re:
    Woodlots!
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- Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:35am
  
  Re:
  We heard you like secrets, so we secretly put a secret in your secret so you can secret while you secretly secret.
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- Richard (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:59am
  
  Re:
  So that is a FAIL compared to the UK "superinjunction" where the fact that a secret exists is also kept secret.
  
  Come on - US government - you can do better than be beaten by the UK surely
  
  (Hang on a minute - there could be secrets like that - we just don't know about them...)
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- Bengie, 14 Jan 2013 @ 9:17am
  
  Re:
  See you in the 2013 insightful/funny end-of-year wrap-up
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Vincent Clement (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:11am

Well done the United States of America. You have completely demolished the whole "government of the people, by the people, for the people" thing.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:11am

These are sobering findings.
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gorehound (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:12am

Stuff like this really pisses me off !!! For the last four decades or so I have been watching and what I see I am not liking at all.
A Big Fuck You to the US Government !
You Guys Truly Eat Dog Shit !!!
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Ninja (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:12am

This could lead to a myriad of jokes but in the current state it's not even funny. When the US question shady laws or cases where the law has been misinterpreted on purpose can we please point at their faces and laugh while showing banners with FISA written all over?
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Pitabred (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:29am

Secret laws
Secret laws. For freedom!

I'm pretty sure this is a literal example of doublethink.
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Digitari, 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:39am

Re: Police state
"we can charge you with laws we honestly know nothing about"
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That One Guy (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 8:53am

I can only hope someone in the senate takes the opportunity to seriously rub this in Feinstein's face, preferably with a loud, snarky "And what was that about 'no secret interpretation' you were saying?"
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GeneralEmergency (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 9:07am

Sad, really.
.

Secret Laws.

Short of Gulags and Death Camps, I cannot think of a more compelling example trait that transitions a Government from "By the People, for the People" to an outright Tyranny.

Think about what this means for our futures, and the futures of our children.

.
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- redrum, 14 Jan 2013 @ 9:17am
  
  Re: Sad, really.
  You forgot Re-education Centers!
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  - crashsuit (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 10:05am
    
    Re: Re: Sad, really.
    If the government doesn't teach you about ------- -- - --------- ----- ----------, who will?
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    - themusicgod1 (profile), 14 Jan 2013 @ 10:36am
      
      Re: Re: Re: Sad, really.
      -------- ------- ----, clearly
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  - Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 12:55pm
    
    Re: Re: Sad, really.
    To have re-education you have to have education first.
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- The Real Michael, 15 Jan 2013 @ 5:44am
  
  Re: Sad, really.
  They're putting all the steps in place. The only thing standing between them and absolute tyranny is the Second Amendment. They're trying everything they can to get rid of it.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 11:14am

Hope, change, and transparency. Obama really is Jesus!
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Jan 2013 @ 12:12pm

LOL That woman is an evil bitch. It's all blank after page six for fucks sake what is on the other 27 pages!! Come on...

How in the fuck can you know if you might be breaking the law if it's a goddamn secret?
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Lawman, 14 Jan 2013 @ 12:55pm

the reach of the law
I have heard that some senators are holding secret hearings to determine who has broken the law, including investigation of other senators and senior govt figures for their involvement in this. Expect it to be the biggest indictment of US govt personnel in history.
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- The Real Michael, 15 Jan 2013 @ 5:52am
  
  Re: the reach of the law
  They arbitrarily decide that certain individuals are 'potential terrorists' without trial and then place them on no-fly lists, which is completely unconstitutional. Thus far there's several hundred-thousand people on it and none of these individuals know why they've been singled out. They even put war veterans on it, including one who's disabled.
  
  I'm thoroughly convinced that this government is evil.
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JTD (profile), 15 Jan 2013 @ 5:45am

These are troubling findings.
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