Yet Another Leak Shows NSA Lied About Not Being Able To Geolocate Data It Scoops Up

from the whoops dept

Mon, Jun 10th 2013 12:23am — Mike Masnick

And... yet another leak of NSA surveillance capabilities to The Guardian's Glenn Greenwald (who damn well better get a Pulitzer Prize for this) suggests pretty strongly that the NSA has directly lied, multiple times, when asked to disclose how many people it had spied on in the US. As we've noted for a while, the NSA has claimed that it was not possible to determine how many Americans it had data on. In a letter to Senator Ron Wyden, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper had stated:

While it is not reasonably possible to identify the number of people located in the United States whose communications may have been reviewed...

An NSA spokesperson also said that it was not possible to figure that out:

Judith Emmel, an NSA spokeswoman, told the Guardian in a response to the latest disclosures: "NSA has consistently reported – including to Congress – that we do not have the ability to determine with certainty the identity or location of all communicants within a given communication. That remains the case."

But, as Greenwald reveals, the NSA appears to have a program, called Boundless Informant (quite a name, huh) that does exactly that.

The leaks are coming fast and furious at this point, and I doubt they're going to stop soon.

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Filed Under: dni, faa, fisa amendments act, geolocation, james clapper, leaks, lies, nsa, nsa suveillance, ron wyden, spying on americans

24 Comments

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horse with no name, 10 Jun 2013 @ 12:57am

wait
So now an IP address is enough to identify someone? Call Steele, he's back in business!
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- Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2013 @ 1:29am
  
  Re: wait
  Awesome that means his ass can be busted now for uploading the torrents himself.
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- Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2013 @ 3:05am
  
  Re: wait
  Well, aren't you a little overjoyed that John Steele gets to do his dirty business.
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- Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2013 @ 3:53am
  
  Re: wait
  A person no, the machine being used and its location definitely yes, with a very high degree of certainty since very few people use proxies or take any steps whatsoever to anonymize/privatize/secure their communications.
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- Gothenem (profile), 10 Jun 2013 @ 5:36am
  
  Re: wait
  An IP Address is enough to geolocate a call. It may not identify a specific person,but it can identify the call location.
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  - horse with no name, 10 Jun 2013 @ 6:13am
    
    Re: Re: wait
    The point is that the IP address information is common, essentially public knowledge. There is not much going on here, it's not like the NSA suddenly knows something as a result that you couldn't figure out yourself, given an IP address.
    
    All of this adds up to a hill of beans. There isn't anything really going on here, just a lot of innuendo and "oh look at this", yet all of the piece appear to be pretty darn legal and just (gasp) efficiently handled.
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    - Rapnel (profile), 10 Jun 2013 @ 8:52am
      
      Re: Re: Re: wait
      Why do you hate America?
      
      ..
      
      Perhaps you make too many monies?
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- Ophelia Millais (profile), 10 Jun 2013 @ 8:14am
  
  Re: wait
  Indeed, I don't see how Boundless Informant is identifying participants or even geolocating with any more precision than any other IP address-based lookup. It seems to be precise only to the country level.
  
  So Emmel didn't lie, considering she qualified her denial of geolocation and identification as being something they can't do with certainty in regard to all parties to a given communication. That leaves quite a bit of wiggle room.
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  - John Fenderson (profile), 10 Jun 2013 @ 1:04pm
    
    Re: Re: wait
    So Emmel didn't lie
    
    It is not only possible, but common, to lie without uttering a single untruth.
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from the conspiracy dept., 10 Jun 2013 @ 1:12am

Now, it's a good time to have all the other laws/treaties get passed/signed (TAFTA,TPP, treaty for the blind - MAFIAA's version -,...), as nobody pays attention to them anymore. And then the leaks will stop.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2013 @ 1:16am

Captain! We can't plug all these leaks, the ship is going down!
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2013 @ 1:19am

NSA has consistently reported � including to Congress � that we do not have the ability to determine with certainty the identity or location of all communicants within a given communication.

Using careful anaylysis and some practical knowledge this means:
some people choose to use anonymous pay as you go phones, and in remote areas the phone may only see a single base station.
It is not that they do not want to identify and locate all participants in a conversation, its just that the technology, and anonymous purchases prevent them from doing so.
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- horse with no name, 10 Jun 2013 @ 2:21am
  
  Re:
  No, all it means is that for the purposes of a court case, they are unable to be absolutely certain who all the participants in a conversation are. Remember, they are looking at "metadata" and not actual voice data, which means they also don't know who is actually using a given device or connected to the internet at a given moment.
  
  It doesn't mean that they aren't pretty sure or reasonably confident or able to perhaps deduce over time with enough data, but it's not the same as determining with certainty.
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from the conspiracy dept., 10 Jun 2013 @ 1:24am

United Spies of America
United Corporations of America
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2013 @ 1:27am

Truth is a terrorist
i expect the US Government will say something like that. Basically 'You can't handle the truth, American People, so leave it to us.'
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2013 @ 2:02am

I swear i expect to hear the words doubleplus good and doublethink come out of obama's mouth soon...
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- Benjamin C. Wade, 10 Jun 2013 @ 5:14am
  
  02170
  Considering Bush Jr. set this up, and his father, Bush Sr. was Director of Central Intelligence...
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2013 @ 2:09am

Anonymous, but probably not.

What I find interesting is how quiet Microsoft have been, after all with everything written in new versions of word now automatically uploaded to a cloud, how happy are foreign (or American for that matter) companies going to be when it is discovered that the NSA and contractors can read everything?

And maybe some lawyers may be interested as well .....
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- Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2013 @ 4:51am
  
  Re:
  Just avoid M$ products and never put anything you value "in the cloud".
  
  Problem solved.
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- PRMan, 10 Jun 2013 @ 10:10am
  
  Re:
  I know SkyDrive is the default save location on the new Office products, but do you have any evidence that even local documents are synced to the cloud?
  
  I would like a link for that because I haven't heard that and I'm certain I would have if it were true.
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  - John Fenderson (profile), 10 Jun 2013 @ 11:34am
    
    Re: Re:
    Just firewall off skydrive (and other cloud providers) and sleep more peacefully.
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AG Wright (profile), 10 Jun 2013 @ 3:35am

The answer to how many
Simple, all of them. The number keeps changing so they can't possibly answer.
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anonymouse, 10 Jun 2013 @ 4:09am

The Truth!!!!
Does anyone really expect the NSA or any other organization that has been doing this to admit to anything, even to congress, seriously they are so stuck on the fact that they have the right to any data they want in the name of fighting terrorism that they honestly see themselves as above the law.
And Obama just has to reject any court case against the NSA and it goes away never to be discussed again.

They have complete control of the systems that should be protecting the citizens and they use those systems with impunity.

There is nothing anyone can do to stop this , nothing, the press will use it to gain a few more sales and viewers and that is about it. Within a month nobody will be discussing this as we move onto the next big thing, maybe an actor or actress being drunk in public or someone falling pregnant.
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RubyPanther, 10 Jun 2013 @ 5:24pm

Pretty stupid story
Like, duh, an IP address cannot be used to "determine with certainty the identity or location of all communicants within a given communication." That is both true, and obvious. And it does not stop less-than-certain geolocation tools from being useful.

Did Greenwald unleash some sort of Stupid-Bomb on you people? If you are for or against the Patriot Act, that should have nothing to do with your understanding of geolocation capabilities, usefulness, or failings.
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