Even The AP Is Calling Bull On Government Claims Of PRISM Helping Stop NYC Subway Bomb

from the when-you-can't-even-convince-them... dept

Wed, Jun 12th 2013 11:09am — Mike Masnick

We've already explained how some NSA supporters, including Rep. Mike Rogers and Senator Dianne Feinstein, are trying to defend PRISM and other NSA surveillance efforts by saying that it stopped a NYC subway bombing but their claims don't seem to hold up under scrutiny. Now even the Associated Press is calling out those statements as highly questionable, which is somewhat amazing for the AP, as it normally loves to just present "both sides of the story" and then let you decide what's real. But the article linked above actually digs in and points out where the claims by the NSA's defenders don't seem to add up to anything.

Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said investigators "found backpacks with bombs." Really, the bombs hadn't been completed and the backpacks the FBI found were unrelated to the plot.

Feinstein said the FBI had Zazi under surveillance for six months. Court testimony showed Zazi was watched only for about two weeks before he was arrested.

But there's a much bigger point that the AP makes. Even if the claim was somehow true that PRISM was useful, nowhere does that claim show how a standard warrant wouldn't have provided the same information:

That's because, even before the surveillance laws of 2007 and 2008, the FBI had the authority to - and did, regularly - monitor email accounts linked to terrorists. The only difference was, before the laws changed, the government needed a warrant.

To get a warrant, the law requires that the government show that the target is a suspected member of a terrorist group or foreign government, something that had been well established at that point in the Zazi case.

In other words, even if PRISM was used, there's no evidence that it was needed, because the NSA could have easily obtained the same information through traditional means -- getting a warrant -- and without potentially violating the privacy of millions of others.

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Filed Under: dianne feinstein, exaggeration, james clapper, mike rogers, nsa, nsa surveillance, nyc subway bomb, prism, warrants, zazi

37 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:14am

We need to start calling these people who blatantly go against the U.S. Constitution by what they really are. Enemies of the State.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:14am

Warrants are just inefficient.

It's much easier if you have all the data on hand and can simply consulate at the time of your choosing.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:15am

The Guardian has dug into this as well...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/nsa-surveillance-data-terror-attack
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:20am

"Now even the Associated Press is calling out those statements as highly questionable, which is somewhat amazing for the AP, as it normally loves to just present "both sides of the story" and then let you decide what's real."

I think the AP being targeted might have something to do with it.

The press in general tends to very much not like it when you do things that may infringe on freedom of the press.

Also, being balanced can be a good thing... but when one side is just lying, it's appropriate to call them on it.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:31am

Farmer Mike, milkin' it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD2hx0uyhMo
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:34am

Re:
average joe, 'tarding it.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130611/17450923413/even-ap-is-calling-bull-government-claims -prism-helping-stop-nyc-subway-bomb.shtml#c33
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Zakida Paul (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:36am

Re: Re:
He really has gone full retard lately. You NEVER go full retard.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:44am

Re: Re:
You are using circular reasoning.

(you linked to your own comment)
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:45am

considering the positions they hold and what they have to do with USA 'security', is it any wonder that they come out with this crap? the amazing thing is that still assume everyone is a complete moron and will believe whatever rubbish they spout! i think it is such a shame that they cant be put on the edge of perhaps, losing their position. i can smell where they have crapped backwards already!
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boomslang, 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:49am

I think we're missing the bigger point
We need to start collecting data on the people at the NSA. They were the folk that have probably had the most contact with Edward Snowden.
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Zakida Paul (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:51am

I just had a thought.

Extremist organisations will use this NSA spying to brainwash vulnerable people into joining their 'cause'. Congrats NSA, you are making the problem of extremism worse.

Can't believe that did not dawn on me until now. My God I am slow.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:54am

Re: Re:
He antagonizes like a 3 year old I know. That discussion he finally got with Mike seems to have blown away any dignity he had left.
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Glen, 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:54am

Re:
That is something I hadn't considered. That is all the more depressing.
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jupiterkansas (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:57am

Re:
Yes, please keep milking it. I'm rather interested in this story.
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Zakida Paul (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 11:59am

Re: Re:
It is similar to the IRA using mass targeting of Northern Irish Catholics in the 70s to brainwash people from deprived areas into joining the organisation.

The way to stop extremism is not with a technical solution (monitoring or blocking), it needs a social solution.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 12:04pm

Re: Re: Re:
Starting by being transparent and honest.

The US government is in trouble (relatively speaking) not because they spied on Americans, but because they have been doing it in secret and lying about it.

People don't tend to trust liars and cheats. This opens up the doors for someone else to rise up and proclaim himself the next saviour. And people will trust him because the alternative is...well...the guy that has already lied and cheated.

The end result can only be bloody. And it is the Government's fault for not upholding the values of Democracy above all else.
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MPAA, 12 Jun 2013 @ 12:16pm

Re: Re: Re:
You have stolen our work so we demand you remove your post now and pay us six million dollars to cover the damages.
Resistance will result in us telling your neighbors you smoke crack and download gay porn.
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Zakida Paul (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 12:17pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Blow me
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 12:48pm

Re: Re:
Moo!!!!!!!!!!
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 12:49pm

Re: Re:
Don't worry. He'll publish more words about this than any other human being on the planet (while refusing to discuss any of it on the merits). You're in the right place if you want all the FUD milked out of this that's possible. MOO!!!!
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 12:50pm

Re: Re: Re:
LMAO! Milkman Mike is too chicken shit to discuss anything on the merits. No one runs faster than Chicken Mike. Moo!! Cluck!!
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Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 1:05pm

Re: Re: Re:
That's the only type of reasoning Joe understands.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 1:06pm

Are they going to use PRISM on the IRS scandal ?
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Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 1:27pm

Re: Re: Re:
The way to stop extremism is not with a technical solution (monitoring or blocking), it needs a social solution.

Truth. Extremism breeds extremism.

In order for a social solution to even gain traction, both "sides" (in quotes, since there's usually more than 2, and many degrees of nuance between) need to see the other as people with differing views and sometimes legitimate grievances instead of mere objects or as evil.

In the current political climate of the US, we have trouble doing that between two peaceful political parties, and sometimes even within a single party (ie tea party vs. GOP establishment).
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 1:33pm

rats
for each of these whistle-blowers that exit from the security apparatus in disgust, how many rats remain using this information flow for their own ends, a dozen?, a hundred?
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 1:58pm

Re: Re: Re:
How is the NSA secretly spying on everyone considered FUD? I'm afraid the NSA is spying on me? I'm uncertain what they'll do with that information? I doubt they care?
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jupiterkansas (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 2:02pm

Re: Re: Re:
If you don't like it, don't read it.
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gorehound (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 2:12pm

Re:
Exactly ! And what we are seeing now is their inevitable BS Stories and those Politicians think they are so frigging Smart............LOL !
Caught in a web of their own lies !
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 2:22pm

"because the NSA could have easily obtained the same information through traditional means -- getting a warrant -- and without potentially violating the privacy of millions of others."

I'm confused. They found out he was a terrorist by seeing emails. Exactly what "traditional" means could of been used to find out he was building bombs?
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 3:24pm

Re: Re: Re:
Keep lying, Joe. It's great practice for being a shyster.
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That One Guy (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 3:25pm

Re:
If I was a cynic(which I am), I'd say that's called 'ensuring job security for the years to come'.
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That One Guy (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 3:31pm

How about these ones?
1. See suspicious activity.
2. Present evidence of suspicious activity to judge.
3. Get warrant.
4. Using warrant, collect more evidence of suspicious activity.
5. Upon collecting sufficient evidence to prove harmful intent, make arrest.

You'll notice nowhere in there was the step 'Collect phone, email, and other records of thousands/millions of innocent people without warrant just in case' needed to catch this person.
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John Fenderson (profile), 12 Jun 2013 @ 3:48pm

Re:
They found out he was a terrorist by seeing emails.

They looked at his emails because they already knew he was up to no good. They didn't discover him by prowling through everyone's emails.

Since they already had him connected to terrorism, getting a warrant to look at his emails would have been fast and easy. Nothing about this case demonstrates that massive spying on our communications was required.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 5:18pm

Reverse Surveilance
I always thought that it was us that should be watching them. I mean, they do work for us...

Now I KNOW we should be the watchers here.
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The Real Michael, 13 Jun 2013 @ 5:19am

How many terrorist plots has the government prevented on account of PRISM? Zero. None. Zilch. Their predictable response would be, "That's a national security secret." Bull. They've prevented nothing, otherwise explain how the Boston bombers managed to pull of their attack despite direct warnings provided by Russian intelligence?

These spy programs aren't meant to reign in (imaginary) terrorists, they're meant to spot patterns and manufacture terrorist threats from within. Of course they'll need to extend and distort the definition of 'terrorism,' since Americans aren't in the habit of committing such acts. I guess that after the CIA created Al Qaeda, they figured that after bombing middle-eastern countries, there'd be thousands of copycat attacks domestically from Muslim extremists, but things didn't pan out the way they envisioned. So the FBI has resorted to foiling their own fake terrorist plots, using whatever unsuspecting patsy they could find, in order to give the appearance that there's a threat and they're 'the good guys'� looking out for our best interests.
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