First French File-Sharer Sentenced To Disconnection Under Hadopi; But Judgment May Be Unenforceable

from the talk-about-waste-of-time dept

As we've noted before, Hadopi has been a colossal failure on just about every metric, and now seems on the way out. But French taxpayers' money is still being wasted on the scheme, which continues to send out huge numbers of warnings. Ironically, given its imminent demise, Hadopi seems to have finally claimed its first disconnection victim, as PC Inpact reports (original in French.) The person involved has been sentenced to disconnection for 15 days, and must pay a €600 fine. Strangely, it seems that he or she shared only a couple of works, so even that brief period seems harsh. However, there is still scope for an appeal, so the sentence is not yet definite.

And as PC Inpact explains, even if it is confirmed, it may be unenforceable: although access to the Web can be cut, Hadopi's rules state that the filtering must not affect email, private messaging, telephone or any associated TV services. Since these are typically all provided together, that may be tricky, or even impossible. Hadopi says it only hands out suspensions: it doesn't concern itself about how -- or even if -- they can be implemented.

So after years of operation, all that the three-strikes approach has to show for the millions that have been spent, are a handful of convictions: one where someone was fined but innocent, and another where the person involved probably can't be disconnected anyway. Great work, Hadopi.

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Filed Under: copyright, disconnection, france, hadopi


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  • icon
    fogbugzd (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 10:08am

    It seems like they could just block torrent traffic for 15 days. Of course, that probably isn't the Draconian measure the backers of Hadopi had hoped to get.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Rich, 17 Jun 2013 @ 12:09pm

      Re:

      I don't know how they would be able to do that. Bit torrent traffic isn't tied to a standard port. They *could* do it via packet inspection, but not if you use encryption.

      link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 12:14pm

        Re: Re:

        … but not if you use encryption.

        My understanding is that Bit Torrent has a fairly characteristic traffic signature. The connections and timing are reportedly distinctive.

        Think I could dig up a paper on that somewhere, but that might take a bit of searching.

        link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 12:23pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Yep they are so is HTTP and UDP protocols and easily spoofed to make look like anything you want.

          Deep packet inspection is horseshit.

          link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 10:42am

    although access to the Web can be cut, Hadopi's rules state that the filtering must not affect email

    Didn't there used to be a service that would copy web content accessable via http into email for transit over uucp?

    link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      John Fenderson (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 10:55am

      Re:

      There are a number of such services available right now.

      link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:19am

        Re: Re:

        There are a number of such services available right now.

        What kind of hardware are they running on?

        Main thing I remember is getting a document —one that I really wanted— using up most of my quota on the other end of, oh, trying to think— a 9600? bps connection.

        It was probably some kind of specification or something, and pro'lly —what— a megabyte? Hell, I don't remember.

        link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          John Fenderson (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:28am

          Re: Re: Re:

          What kind of hardware are they running on?


          What do you mean? The hardware they're running on doesn't matter to you.

          These services all do the same thing. You send them an email with a URL, and their servers read the web page and email it back to you. Some services let you adjust what you get (receive it as an HTML email, or just plain text, for example).

          You can easily find an assortment by searching for "web via email", and I'm sure you'll find one that meets your needs.

          link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:44am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            The hardware they're running on doesn't matter to you.

            Would if we had to port the code to a new platform.

            link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              John Fenderson (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:53am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Oh, I thought you just wanted to use the service. If you want to run a server that does this, that's another thing altogether. This service can be easily done on a low-power machine using stock Linux + GNU tools. It's pretty low-tech.

              link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:58am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                Oh, I thought you just wanted to use the service.

                I don't live in France.

                link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  John Fenderson (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:59am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  You don't have to live in France for these services to be useful. :)

                  link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:45am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            In my time people just used CURL.

            link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 10:43am

    Pirates will inherit the earth.

    LoL

    link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Rabbit80, 17 Jun 2013 @ 10:44am

    HADOPI may be breaking EU law anyway...

    http://torrentfreak.com/hey-hadopi-youre-breaking-the-law-we-made-three-strikes-illegal-across-all-e urope-130616/

    According to the above atricle..

    disconnecting anybody from the net without a prior fair and full adversarial court proceeding – exactly the thing the copyright industry had intended to bypass and cut citizens off en masse – was completely illegal across all of the European Union, and by extension, through the European Economic Area.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Rabbit80, 17 Jun 2013 @ 10:45am

      Re: HADOPI may be breaking EU law anyway...

      Though I am not sure what an atricle is :(

      link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 12:19pm

      Re: HADOPI may be breaking EU law anyway...

      It is well known that HADOPI breaks the european directive. HADOPI and IIRC a british law which was later scrapped were mentioned as exceptions. So, yes HADOPI would be illegal a short time after its infancy but it had a special excemption.

      Btw. HADOPI has probably been one of the best things for people against these overreaching programs since it has highlighted so many problems in the way it was handled that not even many of Sarkozys conservative bretherens in EP were defending it in the end...
      It was such a clear failure politically (Even disregarding its complete lack of results) and a hefty bucket of icecold water in the face of the protectionist lobbies that they are getting a harder time convincing politicians in the future!

      link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 10:46am

    You have to remember that most of the time schemes like this are not meant to be effective. At least not from an absolute enforcement point of view. They are highly effective at keeping the recording industry in the same seat of power they have enjoyed over the last few decades.

    This whole thing is used as a talking point, a bullet point for the next power point slideshow.

    It's used to convince people that it's a real enforcement as something is being done, even if it's not currently effective; and because it's not effective they should implement something else and spend even more money!

    It can also be used as a legal strong arm for any new innovative start-ups that might depend on anything remotely related to something covered by this law. Even the threat that a start-up might be illegal can cause it to stall as they look into the details.

    Hadopi might be a failure when compared to it's written objectives but it's a complete success story for all the unwritten ones.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 10:47am

    "...associated TV services."
    Gotta make sure those eyeballs can still receive those advertisements.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 10:52am

    So...1 disconnection in ~4 years.

    I thought that the Internet was a lawless sea of pirates.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    crade (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 10:59am

    "was fined but innocent"
    Not true, he was guilty. You just don't actually need to infringe on any copyrights or do anything wrong to be guilty.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:03am

    It all depends on how you define piracy and lawlessness.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:07am

    Glyn,

    I know the Techdirt/Copyhater view is that HADOPI is dead/dying, but I don't think that view is accurate. See, e.g., http://copyrightandtechnology.com/author/technologyofcopyright/
    A few sessions at WCS particularly stood out. One was on antipiracy initiatives, such as the graduated response systems in France (Hadopi) and the US (Copyright Alert System). The most interesting thing we learned there was that, to paraphrase Mark Twain, recent rumors of Hadopi’s death (such as this one and this one) have been greatly exaggerated. (As is often the case, Ars Technica got it the most right.) The reality is that Hadopi’s core “three strikes” system will remain intact, but without the threat of suspending users’ Internet access and with maximum fines lowered from €1500 to €60. The Hadopi agency itself is to be disbanded, but the functions will simply move to another existing French agency, a process that has already started with the transfer of some personnel.
    Thoughts?

    link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      crade (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:27am

      Re:

      My thoughts are imho even your article says Hadopi is dead/dying..

      The only thing that made Hadopi different/controversial is the threat of suspending internet, which your article says is going away. That was the stick.. What else is left? Three strikes and then more strikes? The core of Hadopi was the suspension, not the strikes.

      It also says that the Hadopi agency is being disbanded and they are going to dump whats left of it on some existing agency to do in their spare time.. Not exactly what I would call thriving.

      link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:27am

      Re:

      Key points form the ARS article:

      - The success rate of the "strikes" system in France is extremely questionable;
      - HADOPI (the entity) is a dead man walking. It will eventually be killed replaced by another entity;
      - They will no longer disconnect people. There will only be a system of (much lower) fines;
      - They are considering extending the "you must be a pirate tax" to devices such as smartphones and computers;
      - They want to introduce something called "Act 2 of the Cultural Exception" which, from what I could understand, is a tax on service providers.

      So the whole things is being gutted, with a few terrible ideas thrown in for balance. I still don't see how this is helping anyone. At least it will be (allegedly) cheaper to implement.

      link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:08am

    So after years of operation, all that the three-strikes approach has to show for the millions that have been spent, are a handful of convictions: one where someone was fined but innocent, and another where the person involved probably can't be disconnected anyway. Great work, Hadopi.

    Glyn,

    How is a negligent person "innocent"? They are liable precisely because they were negligent. I don't get it. Seems dishonest to say what you're saying.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      DannyB (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 12:27pm

      Re:

      Anonymous Coward wrote:
      > How is a negligent person "innocent"? They are liable precisely because
      > they were negligent. I don't get it. Seems dishonest to say what you're saying.

      How is a innocent person "negligent"?
      I don't get it. Seems dishonest to say what you're saying.

      link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:14am

    Glyn,

    Sorry about the questions. I forgot that you NEVER discuss anything you've published. Why is that? It's right out of the Techdirt Playbook, that's for sure. What a shame that you can't be bothered to defend anything you publish. That says it all about you, unfortunately.

    Toodles.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:27am

      Re:

      You waited a whole 7 minutes. Impressive patience for your type.

      link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:38am

        Re: Re:

        He just picked an easy target to be able to act "outraged".

        Glyn normally doesn't frequent the comments here. I don't know why and, frankly, I don't care. I presume that he has better things to do than to waste his time with ACs in general, and with that AC in particular.

        I also presume that Glyn doesn't have an aching necessity to "win" an argument like the AC above seems to have (just go over the comments from articles from last week and see for yourself what I am talking about).

        link to this | view in chronology ]

      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:42am

        Re: Re:

        Check for yourself: https://www.techdirt.com/user/glynmoody

        He's published 547 articles on Techdirt, yet only made two posts. You can do your own math, but that to me says that, like Pirate Mike, he's not willing to discuss what he publishes. What is it about TD? I've never seen a site so opinionated yet so scared of discussing the issues. Truly remarkable. Hey Glyn, if I negligently run over your family, killing them, would you say I was "innocent"?

        link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          dante866 (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:45am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Another case of idiotic and nonsensical comparisons...how the hell is murder similar to copyright infringement?

          link to this | view in chronology ]

          • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
            identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:46am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Well, negligent people are "innocent," right? That's what Glyn thinks.

            link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:54am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Well, then you are guilty too, since I know for a fact that securing a network takes more than just setting up a password.

              Did you know that WAP can be cracked in seconds?

              WAP 2 is being replaced by WAP 3 and all of that in the space of a couple of years do you understand what that means?

              It means having to buy expensive hardware all again to keep an industry secure, telcos don't do that, they are using the same encryption protocol from the stone ages that has been broken by everyone else why should normal people be responsible for things that are beyond, way beyond their control?

              Now tell us how do you secure you network stupid.
              Did you set up your IDS already?

              link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                nasch (profile), 18 Jun 2013 @ 1:35pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                Did you know that WAP can be cracked in seconds?

                WAP 2 is being replaced by WAP 3 and all of that in the space of a couple of years do you understand what that means?


                WEP or WPA?

                link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Another AC, 17 Jun 2013 @ 12:02pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              ...if I negligently run over your family, killing them, would you say I was "innocent"?

              No, that would be 'Manslaughter' which is specific crime. I don't believe there's a law anywhere stating that not realizing someone was using you wifi to infringe on copyrights (which is what I believe you are meaning) is a crime.

              Bad analogy.

              link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Zakida Paul (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 12:03pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                "Bad analogy."

                That is all we get from copyright supporters

                link to this | view in chronology ]

                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 12:35pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  A copyright supporter is like a car where the windshield is replaced with a mirror. And there's no steering wheel.

                  link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  The Groove Tiger (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:19pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  And milk. Loooots of milk.

                  link to this | view in chronology ]

              • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
                identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 3:09pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                I don't believe there's a law anywhere stating that not realizing someone was using you wifi to infringe on copyrights (which is what I believe you are meaning) is a crime.

                Not a crime, but a tort, and the very person we're talking about was found liable for just that.

                link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              The Groove Tiger (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:12pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              No, actually, negligence is defined as failing to do your job properly, and thus failing to prevent the damage that your job was meant to prevent. It could mean just not doing your job (which causes harm), or ignoring security measures.

              So you can be negligent when repairing a bridge, or at doing some medical stuff, or feeding your children, or any other job where your bad decisions can cause property or health damage, but ONLY if done badly, lazily, etc, not merely because you didn't make the perfect choice.

              Calling anyone negligent for not doing something you WANT them to do but that they have no responsibility whatsoever for, that's just twisting words, which you're not even very good at (and not for a lack of trying).

              link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            DannyB (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 12:30pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            > how the hell is murder similar to copyright infringement?

            I hope you meant alleged copyright infringement.

            That is far worse.

            link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:44pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          These are cross-posted from Glynn's site. If you want to discuss the article with him, you need to go over there.

          link to this | view in chronology ]

          • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
            identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 3:11pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Thx. Do you have a link to Glyn's site?

            link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Pragmatic, 18 Jun 2013 @ 7:28am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Perhaps he's too busy earning a living. Time spent "debating" (read "agreeing with") jerks like you is time spent away from doing paid work.

          Hell, I'd post more often if I wasn't busy working. But I'm paid to work for the company I'm employed by, not for commenting on TD.

          link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 12:35pm

      Re:

      Your jumping to conclusions says it all about you, unfortunately.

      link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      JMT (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 9:32pm

      Re:

      "What a shame that you can't be bothered to defend anything you publish. That says it all about you, unfortunately."

      The fact that you feel fully entitled to an author's time and attention says a lot about you. You have an unrealistically high impression of your own worth.

      link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Ninja (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 12:33pm

    At least they wasted just a few millions. Obama spent a trillion saving banks and insurance companies.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 7:00pm

      Re:

      ...and Obama was negligent as hell as he should have let the bastards die. It would have prevented the proverbial can being kicked down the road, which is all he did...

      link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:06pm

    Oh this gets better. The EU has ruled specifically that cutting the internet off is illegal in the European Union. So after all this the enforcement is debatable it can legally be carried out.

    https://torrentfreak.com/hey-hadopi-youre-breaking-the-law-we-made-three-strikes-illegal-across- all-europe-130616/

    In 2009, the European Union made 3 strikes disconnections illegal.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 8:06pm

    So, let's review.

    HADOPI:
    - Took 4 years to convict one person, who didn't even actually download the files in question.
    - Took 4 years to disconnect one person.
    - Cost millions of dollars in taxpayer money.
    - Was threatened to have its funding cut, possibly inhibiting its ability to send out warning letters.
    - Responded to the above when put in practice by sending out EVEN MORE letters despite supposedly have said ability reduced by reduced funding.

    Aside from making the government richer, exactly how was HADOPI beneficial for music and artists?

    link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Michael, 18 Jun 2013 @ 4:47am

      Re:

      Small correction:

      - Took 4 years to issue a disconnect order that they do not know how to enforce to 1 person.

      link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 23 Jun 2013 @ 1:48am

    Hadopi violates European Union law.

    link to this | view in chronology ]


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