NSA Recruiters Get Smacked Down By University Of Wisconsin Students

from the work-for-the-nation's-most-hated-employer! dept

Mon, Jul 8th 2013 7:21am — Tim Cushing

I'm not sure what the NSA recruiters were expecting when they made a recruiting trip to the University of Wisconsin, but I'm sure the following wasn't it. Maybe they thought they wouldn't be challenged. The sort of students looking to work with the NSA would presumably have had a healthy deference to authority drilled into them since an early age. Maybe they thought that any challenges could be waved away with a simple refusal for "security reasons." Maybe they thought the attending instructor would attempt to moderate the discussion.

None of that happened.

The student who transcribed the recording of the recruiters' visit thought there might be a bit more discussion about current events, and how Snowden's actions had affected recruiting and the agency itself. Instead, more time was spent trying to paint the NSA employees as a fun-loving bunch who spy all day before heading out to blow off steam getting drunk, wearing costumes and singing karaoke. (I am not making this up.)

One of the recruiters discussed how they tend to socialize after work, dressing up in costumes and getting drunk (referenced below). I can imagine that also exerts a lot of social pressure and works as a kind of social closure from which it would be difficult to escape.

Yes, NSA agents are human beings and will relax like other humans do once off the clock. There's nothing wrong with that, but the recruiters seemed unwilling to be dragged into a discussion of the actual "job," and the repercussions of the work they do. Instead of meeting the questions head on, they both made the rather poor decision to play word games with linguistic students.

Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session by Madiha

Here are few of the highlights.

Student A (female): I have a lifestyle question that you seem to be selling. It sounds more like acolonial expedition. You know the “globe is our playground” is the words you used, the phrasing that you used and you seem to be saying that you can do your work. You can analyze said documents for your so-called customers but then you can go and get drunk and dress up and have fun without thinking of the repercussions of the info you’re analyzing has on the rest of the world. I also want to know what are the qualifications that one needs to become a whistleblower because that sounds like a much more interesting job. And I think the Edward Snowdens and the Bradley Mannings and Julian Assanges of the world will prevail ultimately.

NSA_M: I’m not sure what the –

Me: The question here is do you actually think about the ramifications of the work that you do, which is deeply problematic, or do you just dress up in costumes and get drunk?

...

NSA_M: We take it very seriously that when we give info to our policy makers that we do give it to them in the right context so that they can make the best decision with the best info available.

Student B: Is that what Clapper was doing when he perjured himself in front of Congress? Was he giving accurate information when he said we do not collect any intelligence on the US citizens that it’s only occasionally unintentionally or was he perjuring himself when he made a statement before Congress under oath that he later declared to be erroneous or ~~at least, untruthful~~ the least truthful answer? How do you feel personally having a boss whose comfortable perjuring himself in front of Congress?

NSA_F: Our director is not general Clapper.

Student B: General Alexander also lied in front of Congress.

NSA_F: I don’t know about that.

Student B: Probably because access to the Guardian is restricted on the NSA’s computers. I am sure they don’t encourage people like you to actually think about these things.

…

Me: Right, but you’re here recruiting so you’re selling the organization. I mean I’m less interested in what your specialized role is within in the NSA. I don’t care. The fact is you’re here presenting a public face for the NSA and you’re trying to sell the organization to people that are as young as high schoolers and trying to tell us that this is an attractive option in a context in which we clearly know that the NSA has been telling us complete lies. So, I’m wondering is that a qualification? [ref. to earlier question: "So, this is a job for liars?"]

NSA_F: I don’t believe the NSA is telling complete lies. And I do believe that you know, people can, you can read a lot of different things that are portrayed as fact and that doesn’t make them fact just because they’re in newspapers.

Who knows what song you have to belt out to shake off something like this, but whatever it was, I'm sure recruiters M and F were at least a half-dozens sheets to the wind when they did it. It's tough to find a fiery, angst-unloading track written from the perspective of The Man, so perhaps they settled for a quiet duet of Radiohead's "Fitter, Happier," a song most normal people don't find aspirational.

Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.

Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.

While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.

–The Techdirt Team

Filed Under: free speech, jobs, nsa, nsa surveillance, recruiters, wisconsin

49 Comments

If you liked this post, you may also be interested in...

Reader Comments

Subscribe: RSS

View by: Time | Thread

Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 7:29am

Bruised and beaten the NSA recruiters retreated to their lair and licked their wounds, where they would usually dress up in costumes and get drunk. They would get those filthy students, they swore. After all, there were probably a few incriminating downloads they could find.

Meanwhile in Australia the solar panel troll darryl crawled out of his toilet home and beat his chest in righteous moral fury. Someday Australia would reinstate spying and he would once again be declared to have above Australian average intelligence.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
TasMot (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 7:30am

On the Other Hand
It sounds like these are the types of recruits we (the people of the US, you know run of the mill Americans) would want to be running the NSA. Unfortunately, after this recruiting trip they will probably have one of those dossiers that says "ruin their lives" instead of "quick let's hire them".
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 7:35am

Great takedown by the Wisconsin students. Now for the repercussions...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 7:36am

Congratulations, Student A,B and Transcriber. You've just been put on the Nofly list, Wiretap list, Suspected terrorist list, Prism US citizens list...and all the other Government secret lists
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Akari Mizunashi (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 7:37am

Re:
... they get to deal with Disney, a company who tries to mop up the rest of our rights with SOPA-like bills.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

out_of_the_blue, 8 Jul 2013 @ 7:38am

Spooks are liars. Here's Schmidt of Google LYING:
Schmidt: 'Google doesn't do data mining'

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/23/schmidt_on_colbert/

If you've ever seen real live spooks -- not just the kids they hire to snoop low-level -- they're not gregarious party animals, but creepy: either rat-face weaseals or big melon heads like Hayden,

Schmidt is such a stereotype that lacks only silver skull symbols on his jacket collar. You just know he has an actual SS uniform in his closet.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 7:45am

Re: Spooks are liars. Here's Schmidt of Google LYING:
If I saw someone with a melon for a head, I would definitely be spooked.

I think you are on to something.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 7:46am

Re: Spooks are liars. Here's Schmidt of Google LYING:
First, nobody said anything about Google, you really have to stop trying to drag that into the conversation, nobody cares, except people trying to call you out on it.

Second, spooks come in all shapes and sizes, perhaps the most dangerous ones are those who don't look the part.

Third, do you ever notice that NOBODY ever agrees with you, except for the other trolls?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That Anonymous Coward (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 7:47am

Re: Spooks are liars. Here's Schmidt of Google LYING:
and todays entry in Stop looking at the Government and focus on Google.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 8:04am

Re: Spooks are liars. Here's Schmidt of Google LYING:
I hope you realize that posts in this vein really contradict your posts about five strikes and DRM on digital content. Policies such as those are completely at odds with the apparent track of anonymity you're espousing here to make a jab at google. I don't expect you to comprehend the connection though, holding two diametrically opposed positions seems to be your super-power.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 8:16am

Wyden should invite them to Congress, summon Clapper and Alexander before Congress for questioning, then let them ask the questions.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 8:18am

I was wondering how the people at the NSA were able to live with themselves. I should've guessed it involved copious amounts of alcohol.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 8:19am

Costumes, drinking and karaoke, sounds like repressed control freaks that don't have a day job uniform.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The Real Michael, 8 Jul 2013 @ 8:28am

Re: Re:
So glad their remake of The Lone Ranger flopped big time at the box office. Now if only people would stop visiting their theme parks and purchasing their products...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 8:36am

Re:
Actually it sounds a lot like what the IRS has been doing lately... hmm...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The Real Michael, 8 Jul 2013 @ 8:53am

Re:
Yeah, it must be a burden on their conscious to violate our rights all day long, sifting through private info in order to seperate people into predefined groups. Agents need to wind down and become inebriated to ignore the impending disaster this is all leading towards. I'm sure that their superiors have convinced them that they'll be safe and secure once they trash our economy, but then government lying is contagious.

Someday they'll learn the hard way that there is no honor among immoral crooks and liars, no matter what their attire nor the emblem they wear.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
TasMot (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 8:59am

Re: Live with Themselves
You have to look at their "approach" to the problem and the insidious misdirection that come with it. They are "protecting the people". The trouble is that the Trade Center bombing played right into their hands. It resulted in a public outrage (by the news services) to "save us from those bad people". Now, by removing our constitutional rights they can now "save us" from those bad guys. You see, they did it at "our request". The trouble is that they have moved into the "bad guys" slot. At least Hitler and Mussolini didn't have to bother with that pesky Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The NSA has just taken one little step at a time to erode away those pesky rights until now they feel the "piss and vinegar" and can do anything they want because they have a secret court that will pass any ruling they want to make it legal with no Congressional or public oversight. Of course they didn't count on so very many whistleblowers who would feel the righteous weight of the Constitution pressing on their conscience. So much so that they have given up even more of their freedoms because of being in the wrong place at the right time to uphold our freedoms as guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
otb (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 9:07am

Awesome
Way to go BADGERS! That's some scathing language right there. Absolutely perfect.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
ITWARZ, 8 Jul 2013 @ 9:20am

Where Have I Seen This Before?.. Hmm...
"What are we going to do tonight Brain?" "The same thing we do every night Pinky." "MAKE PLANS TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!" - Pinky & The Brain, - ITWARZ
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 9:27am

NSA_M: We would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 9:30am

Re: Re: Live with Themselves
What the governments of the world have done in response is much worse than anything that occurred on 911. Somebody had to say it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
harbingerofdoom (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 9:33am

Re: Re: Spooks are liars. Here's Schmidt of Google LYING:
NOBODY ever agrees with you, except for the other trolls
thats called self perpetuation.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
dennis deems (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 9:50am

Re: Re: Spooks are liars. Here's Schmidt of Google LYING:
Third, do you ever notice that NOBODY ever agrees with you, except for the other trolls?
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon

Actually, it's not true that nobody ever agrees with him but the other trolls. It happens once in a while, like a lunar eclipse or a planetary alignment.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That Anonymous Coward (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 10:00am

We need a psychologist, cause I am sure that people who work all day and then have ti play dress up and drink to get ready for the next day are suffering from something.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 10:00am

Re:
That is what I meant by "repercussions."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
akp (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 10:26am

Re: Re: Live with Themselves
Don't lay this all at the NSA's feet. If you're going to invoke Godwin's Law, then we might as well go on and say the NSA is "just following orders." Because they are.

The NSA probably IS just an information-gathering organization. They're not the CIA, they're not the military.

They're gathering what the Administration(s) told them to gather. This is at the feet of the Executive Branch... Bush and Obama.

The NSA is violating our rights, but at who's behest?.

People like to blame the POTUS for a lot of ills, many of which aren't things that office can control. This, though, is entirely in the POTUS' hands. One of them started it, and each successive POTUS has gone along or expanded it.

The NSA isn't the Big Bad here, they're just the minions.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
TasMot (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 10:48am

Re: Re: Re: Live with Themselves
That argument (I was just doing what I was told) has failed for years with parents of preschoolers and with following the generals' orders in the military. EVERY government organization and law enforcement agency is responsible for supporting the Constitution. End of discussion. This country is founded on those principles and no organization is exempt. What you are really saying then is that the President of the United States has violated his Oath of Office by ordering the violation of the Rights of the Citizens of the United States by ordering the NSA to violate the rights of the US Citizens. You know, that part where the president swears to uphold the Constitution of the United States!:

�I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.�

See here for reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_office_of_the_President_of_the_United_States#Oath_mishaps.
An illegal order does not make anything the NSA did now legal. They SHOULD know better. No agency of the US Government should be exempt from supporting the Constitution or any laws in support of the Constitution. The President, both Houses of Congress and all law enforcement agencies are specifically bound to not change the Constitution. Only the people of the United States by a two thirds majority vote may change the Constitution. Unless so changed, ALL agencies of all of the governments in the United States must abide by the Constitution.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
John Fenderson (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 10:48am

Re: Re: Re: Live with Themselves
The NSA probably IS just an information-gathering organization. They're not the CIA, they're not the military.

True, but you say this as if it minimizes the role of the NSA. Information gathering is even more powerful and dangerous than the operational entities.

The NSA isn't the Big Bad here, they're just the minions.

The NSA certainly is a big bad here. Given that they regularly hide information from, and lie to, the people who are theoretically supervising them, it's disingenuous to describe them as simply being "minions".

That said, there isn't only one bad actor here. In my opinion, the NSA is being evil and we shouldn't let them off the hook for that. But everyone else involved with this (the executive, legislative, and judicial branches) are being evil as well. All of their feet should be in the fire.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 11:25am

Re: Re: Re: Live with Themselves
Who's the Big Bad, then? Obama?
He was singing a very different tune before the elections. Do you honestly think he changed it all by himself?

IMHO, I don't think there is a single identifiable Big Bad (Brother), just the collective and self-reinforcing corruption of formerly (and some possibly still) well-meaning people by the toxic proximity of too much power.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 12:41pm

I feel bad for those students. They're going to be wiretapped for the rest of their lives now. Oh wait! They already are, as is the rest of us.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 1:13pm

I do not follow you akp. The n�rnberg proces established that you cannot hide behind "following orders". The grunt is as gulty as the general.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
JEDIDIAH, 8 Jul 2013 @ 1:14pm

Re: Live with Themselves
If it's part of the executive branch, then Obama's in charge. Full stop. No excuses.

There are certain things that the other branches of government to do to get in the way of POTUS. Unless you can cite one, then this all rests on Obama. The fact that Bush started it is not a sufficient excuse.

Don't try to make up excuses for Obama acting like any other middle aged white guy.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
John Fenderson (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 2:02pm

Re: Re: Live with Themselves
If it's part of the executive branch, then Obama's in charge. Full stop. No excuses.

Not quite. If you're looking for a place for the buck to stop, it would more properly be in Congress. It's Congress that authorized the existence of the court, it's Congress that created the laws permitting all of this misbehavior, and it's Congress that is charged with oversight.

You're right insofar as this stuff requires the complicity of the judicial and executive branches as well -- any of the three branches can bring this to an end -- but the whole thing is Congressional at its core.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The Groove Tiger (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 2:55pm

Re: Re: Re: Spooks are liars. Here's Schmidt of Google LYING:
You mean like a mating call?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Spaceman Spiff (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 3:33pm

Once again...
NSA interviewer: Have you ever told a lie?
Interviewee #1: No, never!
Interviewee #2: Yes, when I think it is necessary.

NSA interviewer: #1, you are just the person we want. #2, sorry, but we can't use you - you are just too honest!

Not exactly what I previously posted, but pretty much what I meant... :-)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Marcel de Jong (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 3:44pm

Re: Where Have I Seen This Before?.. Hmm...
Wherein Brain proved to be the insane one. NARF
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 4:11pm

If more students like these are starting to question the role of government in our lives then the NSA is going to have a major recruiting problem. ON the other hand, I hope these students start working at the NSA because then they can release all of the documents about our government's two-faced attitudes toward the American People and our allies.

While Julian Assange and Bradley Manning handled it the wrong way, I think that Edward Snowden may have just given the American People someone to stand behind and to fight for.

If President Obama, the U.S. Congress and the liberal establishment in this country were smart (and that includes the liberal media), they would hand Snowden a presidential pardon and reward him for revealing to the public about this secret spying program.

As it stands now, the only thing that President Obama, the Democrats and their liberal supporters are doing is turning Snowden into a martyr for a cause that every American believes in.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Wally (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 4:12pm

"One of the recruiters discussed how they tend to socialize after work, dressing up in costumes and getting drunk (referenced below). I can imagine that also exerts a lot of social pressure and works as a kind of social closure from which it would be difficult to escape."

Admittedly I would be driven mad to do this if I had to keep a secret.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That Anonymous Coward (profile), 8 Jul 2013 @ 7:35pm

Re:
I was with you up until the whole 'THANKS OBAMA!" portion of the message.
Let us be very clear.
This spying is not a Democrat or Republican thing.
It is not a Liberal or Conservative thing.

It is the result of terrified people giving power without question to the Government and not bothering to trust be verify that they are still acting in our best interests.

This is pouring money into the pockets of contributors offering snake oil fixes to imagined problems.
This is why Freedom has a price, and people have been unwilling to hold up their portion to be vigilant and speak out when they see things being done wrong in their name.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 9:15pm

Re:
"We need a psychologist, cause I am sure that people who work all day and then have ti play dress up and drink to get ready for the next day are suffering from something."

Don't see why, it worked pretty good for Hoover.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 8 Jul 2013 @ 10:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Live with Themselves
"but the whole thing is Congressional at its core."

But the Congressman who wrote the bill says this was not his intention. And certainly, the Patriot Act does not REQUIRE the NSA to spy on everyone. It takes a special reading of the bill and the Constitution to even attempt to justify it.

So most of the blame goes to the executive branch, which is actually doing the spying.

Think of it this way. If tomorrow Obama used the War Powers Act to bomb France for no reason, would you blame Congress for passing the War Powers Act which allows him to do this under US law, or would you blame Obama?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 9 Jul 2013 @ 5:11am

Re: Re:
I agree with you that it is not a partisan thing. And I agree with your assessment of it coming from a terrified populace blindly allowing it's government to run amok. However, it is the neo-cons (in both parties) that are exploiting and manipulating the situation which is driving this.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The Real Michael, 9 Jul 2013 @ 6:38am

Re: Re: Re: Live with Themselves
Now you know why they're called CONgress, the polar opposite of PROgress.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
John Fenderson (profile), 9 Jul 2013 @ 10:27am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Live with Themselves
If tomorrow Obama used the War Powers Act to bomb France for no reason, would you blame Congress for passing the War Powers Act which allows him to do this under US law, or would you blame Obama?

I would blame both, just as I do with this NSA stuff.

The bottom line is that, secret interpretations or not, this is law that was written and passed by Congress, gets regularly renewed by Congress, and is Congress' responsibility.

That some Congressmen are saying that they never intended the law to be used this way fails on three counts: first, that when the laws were being debated, everyone was explicitly warned that this sort of thing would happen -- so intended or not, they knew. Second, the keep renewing it. Third, they could correct this misuse by correcting the law -- which is something that they don't appear interested in doing.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
none, 9 Jul 2013 @ 3:11pm

Re: spies
Don't forget the magic pills. Red or blue?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Sopra, 11 Jul 2013 @ 3:14am

This is what they are afraid of
This is what cunts like Obama are afraid of, well informed citizens. I love this. The way the NSA retards get crucified, that's amazing. Thanks to everyone who contributed with the questions.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Failboat, 11 Jul 2013 @ 4:50am

Re: Re: Re: Live with Themselves
I'd have to agree with you on this. In a sense, the terrorists won by slowly eroding the U.S. lifestyles we used to enjoy.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Forest_GS, 13 Jul 2013 @ 5:42am

Re: On the Other Hand
...where is that "Sad, but true" button? It's been requested quite a lot.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
CommonSense (profile), 14 Aug 2013 @ 10:04am

LOVE the ending!
I actually laughed out loud when I got to the end of the embedded recording... The last line is:
"Meanwhile, let's let everyone hear more about karaoke"

Seriously!?!?!?!?!?!?!
[ link to this | view in thread ]