Telco Astroturfing Tries To Bring Down Reviews Of Susan Crawford's Book

from the lame dept

Mon, Jul 29th 2013 12:47pm — Mike Masnick

Astroturfing -- the process of a faux "grassroots" effort, often set up by cynical and soulless DC lobbyists pretending to create a "grassroots" campaign around some subject -- is certainly nothing new. It's been around for quite some time, and it's rarely successful. Most people can sniff out an astroturfing campaign a mile away because it lacks all the hallmarks of authenticity. A separate nefarious practice is fake Amazon reviews -- which have also been around for ages -- amusingly revealed when Amazon once accidentally reassociated real names with reviewers' names to show authors giving themselves great reviews. Over time, Amazon has tried to crack down on the practice, but it's not easy.

So what happens when you combine incompetent astroturfing and fake Amazon reviews? Check out the reviews on Susan Crawford's book, Captive Audience: The Telecom Industry and Monopoly Power in the New Gilded Age. Now, I should be clear: while I respect Crawford quite a bit, and often find her arguments compelling and interesting, I found Captive Audience to go a bit too far at points, and felt that the book lost a lot of its persuasive power in really overstating the case. We agree that the broadband market is not even remotely competitive, but we disagree on the solution to that. Still, I think the book is very much worth reading, and an important contribution to the discussion on broadband/telco policy.

But, boy, the telco lobbyists and shills really have been going overboard trying to smear the book every which way. Front groups set up by the big broadband players going by names like NetCompetition, Broadband For America, and Media Freedom have wasted little time attacking the book as if it has no redeeming merits at all.

But, at least people can look at who's behind those various organizations, or where their "founders" last plied their trade. When it comes to Amazon reviews, it's a somewhat different story. Karl Bode recently noted the large number of one star reviews on Crawford's book that exhibit a pretty clear pattern: a "folksy" tone from someone in an "ordinary" job, living in a "rural" location (they all mention a rural location) absolutely trashing Crawford's book, all using talking points that the big telco lobbyists have been handing out. Here are a few examples.

This is wrong

By lavell martin (hazelwood, mo United States)

Des Moines, Iowa
I am professional truck driver who uses the Internet in job training.I have just read the book "Captive Audience" by Susan Crawford. I am very disappointed in her negative attitude toward our national telecommunications system. As a professional truck driver, I have been using technology since the days when CB radio was the next big thing. Then came cell phones that were barely useful for an over-the-road trucker who was almost always "roaming" from his home system.

But times have changed and now every trucker has the ability to communicate, not with a trucker a quarter of a mile ahead or behind, but a quarter (or all the way) around the world. Wireless technology allows us to track where trucks and their cargo are in real time. They allow us to contact our customers to alert them to our arrival time, meaning I can unload as soon as I get to the customer rather than waiting for someone to arrive.

To read Ms. Crawford's book you would be led to believe that the companies who have investested hundreds of billions of dollars in these systems haven't accomplished anything. She is wrong. The "breaker-breaker" days are long gone and it is private industry that has left it far in our rear-view mirrors.

Unimpressed - Facts Don't Add Up

By nhunter

I do much of my schoolwork online and do not believe that Susan Crawford's points in "Captive Audience" are valid. I am from a rural area, yet my broadband connection is good enough for me to stream online lecture and perform research. Only 3-5% of homes in the US do not have access to wired broadband services, and generally in these cases there are multiple wireless options. I simply do not know anyone who is not able to purchase a wired broadband connection - even in remote areas.

Our system of private investment is sustainable and has provided affordable service to hundreds of millions of people. Looking at the state of broadband in the US I do not see the problems in our system that Ms. Crawford points out. The last thing we need is a complete overhaul that trades our tried and true system for one of uncertainty, reliant on government spending. In order to provide better, cheaper broadband we need to move regulation out of the 1990's and into the 21st century.

Captive Audience lacks in believability

By MAntkow

I am not sure I agree with the central premise of this book. While Susan Crawford certainly has credibility, given her tenure as President Obama's technology advisor, I am just not buying her take on the supposed monopoly within the telecom industry. If the United States is truly lagging behind other countries in its access to high-speed broadband Internet, how is it our Internet network infrastructure investments have risen by almost 25 percent? Moreover, if access were really a problem in the U.S., I would almost certainly have first hand knowledge of it. I am from a remote part of Kentucky that is as far a cry from big city living as one can get. I have yet to find my access to the Internet lacking.

Terrible Book
By Lee

I do not live in a metropolitan area, but I have had access to an affordable high-speed connection for over a decade. Ms. Crawford is not telling the whole story. The FCC has reported on multiple occasions that over 99% of the population has access to satellite, wired or wireless broadband connection. Not so long ago there were people who thought laptops would never be an equal to desktops, and tablets could never be a substitute for a laptop. It seems those that doubt technology usually end up wrong, and if there is any industry that will provide world changing innovation over the next few years, my bet is it will be in broadband here in the US.

Because I'm a curious sort, I decided to look a little more deeply at the 31 one-star reviews, and see if I might glean any patterns. I read through them all and noticed some very noticeable patterns. First of all, there are a few named reviewers who are listed as "verified buyers" of the book or are in Amazon's "Real Name" program. Those are people who are clearly legit. Of course, nearly all of those reviewers are rather well-known in technology/telco policy circles, often closely associated with various think tanks known for supporting the position of the telcos: you have Scott Cleland of NetCompetition, Richard Bennett of ITIF, Ryan Young of CEI, Andrew Langer of the Institute for Liberty and Geoffrey A. Manne of the International Center for Law and Economics. I don't have any problems with these reviews. While the view of these individuals are well-known and were probably decided long before they ever came near the book, they put their names on the reviews and many of them are listed as verified purchasers. On the flip side, for the 5-star positive reviews, you have folks like Tim Karr from Free Press, though that's really about it (there is also Dane Jasper, the CEO of awesome local ISP Sonic.net, but he's an actual expert in the field, not just some think tank policy analyst like everyone else).

The problem comes in when you look at everyone else. As mentioned, a very large number of the reviews seemed to follow a similar pattern -- so I figured why not see if we can compare the 1-star reviews to the 5-star reviews in some manner. To keep it fair, I removed the named DC policy folks from the calculations, though even if you add them back in the numbers are pretty striking. First, I looked at what percentage of the reviews included some sort of folksy reference to their job (e.g., "I'm a truck driver and my experience is...", to the fact that they lived somewhere rural or non-metropolitan, or that they were a student). In reading the reviews, these all felt extremely inauthentic, because there's nothing about Crawford's book that should lead someone to discussing any of those things. It's irrelevant -- but if you're a clueless DC astroturfing firm trying to sound like everyday common folk, it might be something you do.

Fifteen of the 1-star reviews make such a mention. That's 58%. Of the 5-star reviews, there was only one single mention of anything having to do with rural settings, and it was someone delving more deeply into the issue of rural broadband, rather than anyone trying to sound folksy. No one mentioned their down home job or that they were a student. So if we include that one pseudo-mention, it's 2.5%. In other words, something is pretty clearly off with those 1-star reviews.

My second check was to look at whether or not the reviews had one of the following three criteria: they were a verified purchaser, they were enrolled in Amazon's "REAL NAME" program, or they had reviewed other products besides just Crawford's book. While this is a rather crude measure, I figured that having any of those things be true at least suggested that there was a real person behind the review. Having none of those three things might still mean they were a real person who legitimately bought the book and was giving a legitimate opinion, but at the very least it couldn't be proven. To give the benefit of the doubt to the Crawford haters, here I added back in the known policy wonks -- who were basically the only 1-star reviewers to qualify as humans under these criteria. Without this, I think only two of the remaining 26 reviewers could meet the criteria. In the end, even with the known DC policy insiders, only 11 out of the 31 reviews, or 35% met the criteria.

Of the 5-star reviews, 80% met the criteria. And, even this is somewhat misleading. Of the reviews that did not meet the criteria of provably human, nearly all of them mention that they're leaving a 5-star review solely to counteract the obvious shill 1-star reviews. I think that's counterproductive in many ways, but it suggests that those reviews weren't directly "shill" reviews, but rather response to astroturf reviews.

As a further check, I compared the average number of other products reviewed by each group -- the 1-star reviewers and the 5-star reviewers. That really wasn't a fair fight. The average number of "other" reviews by those who gave Crawford's book a 1-star review: 1.4. And that's almost entirely due to one person, Richard Bennett, who has 24 other reviews. Of those who gave it a 5-star review, the average is 113.9. Yes. 1.4 vs. 113.9. Okay, the 5-star reviews are also skewed heavily by one reviewer, Loyd E. Eskildson who has over 4,000 reviews. So, to be fairer, I cut out that outlier and the 5-star reviewers still had an average of 13 other reviews (I didn't even bother to take out Bennett's outlier on the 1-star reviews). Using the other (probably better) tool, we could also compare the median other reviews for each group. For the 1-star reviews, it will surprise no one to find out that the median is 0. For the 5-star group, the median is two.

Basically, no matter how you slice it, there's some sort of statistical anomaly going on here that makes it pretty clear that someone was pushing a ton of fake astroturfing reviews on Crawford's book, and didn't even care to take the time to hide it well. As I said, even if you don't fully agree with the book, I'd hope we can all agree that this is a pretty disgusting move by whatever lobbyists/shills/think tanks dreamed up this astroturfing campaign just because they don't like what the book says. Can't fight on the merits, huh?

Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.

Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.

While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.

–The Techdirt Team

Filed Under: amazon reviews, astroturfing, broadband, susan crawford, us

107 Comments

If you liked this post, you may also be interested in...

Reader Comments

Subscribe: RSS

View by: Time | Thread

David, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:05pm

Now I'll Buy
I grew up in a remote part of the country that still can't get cable television or high speed internet. I don't like that anyone would misrepresent themselves as 'rural' just to appear more trustworthy. I'm going to buy, read, and leave a review for this book just to put one honest redneck review on Amazon.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Ninja (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:07pm

Holy spare time killing, Batman! That's some nice digging here! I've been noticing it happening in TD comments as well. We have a few regular trolls that can be easily identified and then we have the shills for each specific sector (which can also be easily identified with few exceptions). When something big happens or comes (ie: NSA leaks, copyright reform or key lawsuits) the comments get completely flooded with those shills. This combo of 'Astroturf' and and user generated comments, ratings and opinions has been around for a while now and I believe it got traction after people started realizing that the web has the power of spreading stuff, information massively (and the politicians, companies started using it intensively). I'm gonna guess it started somewhere near th year 2k.

Basically if your article/book/whatever is being heavily polluted by trolling/shilling you know you are doing it right ;)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:08pm

my provider was recently purchased by Charter Communications, Since this has happened I have been without service for days at a time. This never happened before the buyout. Now I call tech support to ask about the problem and they brush me off, Like it's no big deal. So at this point I pay almost 200$ a month for services I don't get. Simply because I'm dealing with a monopoly.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
kenichi tanaka (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:12pm

I'm incensed by the comment that "Only 3-5% of homes in the US do not have access to wired broadband services". Not only is that statement misleading by the Amazon commenter but it grossly inaccurate and so far off the cuff that you can't help but to shake your head at that figure.

That number that only "3-5%" of homes don't have wired broadband services is so misleading that I fell out of my chair at how wrong that is since the number of Americans in the United States who don't have broadband services is much, MUCH higher than that. Mostly because the prices of broadband services are so expensive.

There are currently more than 300 million Americans living in this country, according to official population numbers reported by the government. The FCC reported (per an Ars Technica article published in 2012) that 119 million Americans in the United States lack broadband services.

Source: http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/08/119-million-americans-lack-broadband-internet-fcc-reports/

Tell me something? How does somebody get 3-5% of Americans lacking broadband services when the FCC reported last year that 199 Million Americans lack such services. The last time I checked, and feel free to correct me on this, but 119 million from 300 million is actually closer to 35%, not 3-5%.

Either that commenter is the dumbest person on this planet or they simply don't know how to properly count and need to go back to school.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:14pm

If they were smart they should have mixed in some 2s and 3s
[ link to this | view in thread ]
kenichi tanaka (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:20pm

Tell me about it. I hate it when people deliberately show just how ignorant and stupid they really are. 3-5%? Really? That Amazon commenter forgot how to count.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

out_of_the_blue, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:21pm

Is this shilling for Crawford's book? Or just coincidence
that you recommend the book? I mean, imagine the odds of some alleged astroturfing being conducted against a book that YOU'VE read and advise others to buy! You've even got a nod toward objectivity to enhance your apparent credibility: "we disagree on the solution to that. Still, I think the book is very much worth reading," So you give a favorable review... And you position poor Sue as the victim. All I can say is, HMM... Come to think of it, many of the problems you write up in some way affect your pals or their interests.

However, far MORE interesting is to find that you "disagree on the solution"! Holy cow! You actually have a solution to some problem? I haven't seen you give ANY solution in over three years! Why didn't you skip this questionable minor item whether it's about astroturfing or promoting some weenie's book, and give us the SOLUTION to a substantial problem? ... Or do you just disagree yet don't actually have your own notions to trot out?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Lord Binky, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:25pm

They can't even pretend to talk like the little guys....
Wow, lay off the power words guys. It written by someone stuck in advertising using words like affordable,reliable, private industry, hell I half expected to see peace-of-mind show up from one of these 'rural' folks leaving outside a metropolitan area. And Metropolitan, really?! who lives outside a metropolitan area that doesn't call it suburbs or a metro? If it isn't a formal writing the only time metropolitan is used in normal speech is if alcohol is involved.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Alt0, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:28pm

I hardly ever put any weight in the reviews of things on the internet. Simply for the reason it would be too easy to trash something or prop up something based on factors OTHER than the product / service / creative work.
If I see reviews that mostly all have the same criticism (example: the back seat is too small, or the cord is really short) Then its a safe bet the seat will be small or the cord short. But creative works, even ones based on supposed facts, are for the reader to decide and in those cases I don't read the reviews at all.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
DannyB (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:29pm

Astroturfers / shills can be effective
The web loses its power to spread stuff if the shills / astroturfers can completely derail any meaningful discussion in a forum such as TD.

I've seen it before. Articles where the vast majority of comments were responding to a troll that was obviously trying to generate responses. The time and energy spent in those responses detracts from writing other thoughtful comments in the same article. Furthermore, the bulk amount of responses to the shills makes it difficult to locate the more thoughtful comments.

I have suggested that a useful countermeasure is that in addition to hiding a message once it gets past a threshold number of reports, that once it gets past a second threshold number of reports that it and it's replies are all hidden. Anyone who is interested in reading can still un-hide them.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:30pm

this has obviously been going on with all things that the various services etc want to continue having a monopoly on. while they can keep things going, they eliminate competition (thanks mainly to the politicians that are bribed into applying new laws that keep the monopolies going) and are able to rig prices, give poor service with no competition to interfere. apart from the telco/broadband companies, the other obvious example of putting out as many falsehoods as possible, as quickly as possible, particularly when answering independent reviews that have totally debunked the figures the industries themselves have put out, is Hollywood and the entertainment industries. if it weren't for all the lies they tell, the politicians they bribe and the law suits they bring (simply because of the bottomless pit of money they have against the shallow purse of an ordinary home owner), they wouldn't be able to do anything at all if competition were ever to be forced on them!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
davebarnes (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:32pm

Yelp filtering
This is why I like Yelp and its filter.
The 501s and 101s soon disappear.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:33pm

Welcome to another report vote ootb. Once again you show the hypocrite you are. On one hand you accuse Mike of shilling but there is rarely (so rare that hens teeth are more findable) an article you can remotely agree on when it comes to copyright being stretched beyond all reasonable bounds.

Your position is exactly what you claim to accuse Mike of.

You offer no solutions, just trolling and so get another report vote.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Alt0, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:39pm

Oh did I mention?
BTW
I live in a highly populated area and have a choice of three major providers for wired broadband, each willing to bundle the service for me (how nice) with TV and telephone!
Thing is, IT COSTS TOO MUCH! If Comcast had not "grandfathered my account I would have to pay a fortune for these services.

Oh and the debate about 3-5% vs 35%...
3-5% do not have broadband access - 35% choose not to have broadband. BIG difference.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:41pm

Re: Is this shilling for Crawford's book? Or just coincidence
People can agree or disagree on a solution without having a solution themselves.

For instance: I think the solution to ootb trolling is banning him.

A person (we will call him X) disagrees and states that banning him will only cause other trolls to level claims against TD for being pro-censorship and ramp up other people trying to troll. X did not need to offer a solution. All X did was disagree and state why he/she does so. It's better that "solutions" be examined and re-examined to determine if the solution will fix the problem while causing next to no new problems.

To clarify my position I think that it is better that we have a few legitimate solutions that have had a lot of thought put into them then to have 1000's throwaway answers that end up causing more issues then solving.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Oblate (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:43pm

Well, I'm just a(n) <Insert Average Job> from <Random Rural Area> but I was wondering if you had done a similar statistical review of some non-controversial books. This would strengthen your astroturfing claim if no other reviews show similar patterns.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:49pm

Who buys a book like that and then gives it a 1 because they disagree with the premise? Besides professional reviewers, of course.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 1:57pm

Hilarious, I use similar methods when trying to find out if the few high star reviews on a questionable product are legit or not.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
kenichi tanaka (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 2:35pm

I agree. Just ban ootb or place all of his posts on "moderator approval" only.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 2:57pm

Re:
Mine are on moderator approval and I haven't trolled in over a year now. I've had two comments do it so far today, and I'm expecting this one to as well.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
DannyB (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 3:01pm

Re: Re: Is this shilling for Crawford's book? Or just coincidence
I can disagree with your solution to the OOTB trolling without stating a solution -- such as enhanced interrogation techniques using Justin Bieber music.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Jim G., 29 Jul 2013 @ 3:02pm

Excellent forensic analysis there, Mike. Maybe you have a future at the NSA?

BTW, I am a pig farmer in the backwoods of Kentucky. Pretty much everyone here is poor as dirt, but we spend our free time reading expensive books on broadband/telco policy. It�s the traditional way.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 3:12pm

Now I have to read it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 3:41pm

Maybe Amazon should give you the option of seeing the overall star rating with selected filters. IE: See how many stars this book gets if only verified purchasers are considered.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 3:43pm

Re: Is this shilling for Crawford's book? Or just coincidence
Are you suggesting Mike was paid to endorse this book?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 6:06pm

"Only 3-5% of homes in the US do not have access to wired broadband services, and generally in these cases there are multiple wireless options."

That sounds about right since the majority of the population is located close to cities. Sadly for me that was not the case for a long ass time. I was stuck on fucking dial-up from 1995 - 2005 until a wireless option became available. It was pretty crappy by my standards today but the 500kbs sure in the hell beat the 2.2 - 2.6 kbs download speeds of dial-up. Luckily today I live in town and my downloads blaze well over 7500 kbs.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
ls, 29 Jul 2013 @ 6:21pm

Re: Now I'll Buy
Maybe she wrote the negative reviews, then this article as a way to get the "rural" population to buy the book.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
jim w, 29 Jul 2013 @ 6:26pm

Re:
Before you go around calling someone the "dumbest person on the planet", you better check your own mental acuity first. The 3-5% figure was referring to folks with no "access" to broadband, not how many people were not "using" broadband. The article you linked states that 19 mil have no ACCESS to broadband. 19 mil out of a total population of 314 mil is 6%.

So the 3-5% figure is still incorrect, but no so far off that the person should be labelled "dumbest on the planet".
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Timothy Karr, 29 Jul 2013 @ 6:42pm

No immoral equivalence
Mike, I'm usually a fan. This time, however, you're completely off the mark. My review of Susan's book does not represent the same problem as the astroturfing attacks of paid corporate shills. Free Press receives no money from any entity that has a financial stake in the outcome of the internet policy issues Susan writes about. In fact, my colleagues and I make considerable financial sacrifices to represent the public interest in policy debates that have been overrun by well-heeled sock puppets on the companies' payroll. I happen to believe that Americans need more affordable access to fast and open networks. I believe that Susan's offers a very important critique of a U.S. policy making regime that has failed to represent Internet users and push for those objectives. I don't hide my identity or misrepresent the work that Free Press does. Nor do I come by my opinions dishonestly or out of a desire to spin an issue in service of a hidden agenda. Frankly I'm surprised that you would suggest some sort of immoral equivalence. A correction would be the right move.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Oral Seymour, 29 Jul 2013 @ 6:44pm

Amazon Reviews
Those are the most intelligent 1 star reviews I have ever read. Usually when someone is pissed off enough to write a 1 star review, they don't take the time to eloquently express themselves. Which normal person says that pages render in HD quality???

"Pages render quickly, in HD quality, allowing a customer to choose from my widew variety of prices and styles. To begin the process of creating a unique design, all my customer has to do is click a button on the screen and we're in touch.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 6:50pm

Did you actually READ the BOOK ???
Just wondering..
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 6:52pm

Re: No immoral equivalence
Masnick,, BUSTED.. next time, don't try to spin it so much, real, honest people might take offense to you lies. !!!

If you don't agree with the comment posted, please feel free to censor it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 6:55pm

Re:
yes, if you don't agree with the comments, make sure you CENSOR it..

It's the TD way..
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 6:55pm

Re:
normal TD censorship not enough ??? Just ask Masnick to make it more draconian.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anne Non, 29 Jul 2013 @ 6:57pm

Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
Maybe. But given that the stuff the shills put forward actually represents ideas of whatever nefarious party, isn't there actually some kind of benefit to seeing the responses? To show people that the party actually IS nefarious?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 6:57pm

Re:
welcome to the world of Techdirt censorship, disgusting in all it's glory..

Don't agree with a comment ??? No problems lets CENSOR IT...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 7:02pm

Re: Re: Is this shilling for Crawford's book? Or just coincidence
But TD IS pro-censorship.. is that not a problem worthy of a solution ?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 7:04pm

Re: Re: Is this shilling for Crawford's book? Or just coincidence
It IS in Masnicks interest to endorse this book, as it advances his cause.

And Masnick sells these books via TD, so there is a profit issue as well.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 7:07pm

Re:
The FCC reported (per an Ars Technica article published in 2012) that 119 million Americans in the United States lack broadband services.

lacking services is not the same thing as services not being available in the area they live in..

You cant work out the difference ?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 7:09pm

Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
so, you are for MORE censorship, more suppression of comment you don't agree with ?? OK, great, you've come to the right place.

TD is famous for it's level of censorship if stifling of free speech.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 7:16pm

Re:
are you reading the same web site as we are ??

the comments get completely flooded with those shills

really, it seems only a few comments are "REPORTED" and looking at those comments, they ARE ALL ones with a different opinion to the bulk of the comments, from the Masnick supporters..

So you only report comments because you don't agree with them, you try to hide them and make it harder for people to read opinion you don't agree with.

That is the WORST KIND of censorship, because it's used to stop opinion and free and open debate.

I am sure, if you had the power you would delete those comments you don't agree with.

So someone could come here and ONLY READ COMMENTS that agree with Masnick, ANYTHING that you don't think supports Masnicks opinion you censor.

It's amusing, that given Masnicks (outward) opinion on censorship, he would allow it to be employed so extensively here on HIS web site, and for this reason..

He is allowed to censor, it would be nice if you was honest about why he allows this censorship to continue, and why it is only comment not agreeing, that get's censored.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 7:22pm

Re: Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
everyone reads the REPORTED, censored comments to see why they are censored. And EVERY TIME, we are not let down.

EVERYONE knows, these will be comments that do not agree with Masnick, or are a dissenting comment..

And dissent is not allowed in a totalitarian cult !

What is sad about this TD censorship (lets call it what it is), is that it is 100% used (abused) to stifle comment and speech.

Masnick could have a 'thumbs up' or 'thumbs down' and a counter for each, so you could "vote" on the comment.

That would be reasonable, and not censorship.
How it stands now you can 'vote up' a comment "funny" or "insightful" or you can CENSOR IT.
It's sad Masnick has chosen to go this way..

Put censorship in the hands of the users (of TD) and they will exploit that power to censor, something Masnick is strongly against (publicly), except here on TD, Masnicks own site !
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 7:29pm

Re:
It is because the intelligent Internet community massively out numbers the obvious industry shills.

If you had once agreed with a single thing on this site, you may have been able to fool someone into believing that you are not a shill.

Are you really that stupid, that even after all the times the censorship has been explained to you, you still get it this wrong.

I hope you get paid on quantity not quality of your posts
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 7:44pm

Re: Re: Re: Is this shilling for Crawford's book? Or just coincidence
Except techdirt is strongly anti censorship in both word and deed to the point even the trolling/off topic comments that are reported by users are still easy to access

Though outright spammers are deleted so I geuss that counts
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That One Guy (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 7:48pm

Welp, looks like AJ's off his meds again, that or something about 'paid reviews/comments to make something look worse' struck a nerve with him...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That One Guy (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 8:11pm

Re: No immoral equivalence
Sorry but, what? I saw you mentioned all of once in the article, and it was simply stating that you'd left a 5-star review, nothing more, nothing less.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Brad Peters, 29 Jul 2013 @ 8:24pm

Fine Line
One thing worth mentioning is there is a fine line between these big companies and small rural ones. I work for a small rural telco. We service 3 towns/villages and the surrounding areas. We can offer up to 5 meg to everyone and more to most. We have made large investments in our infrastructure and now are making more of an investment in fiber to the home. We pay for all of this on our own. I don't understand how these big companies cannot afford to build out their networks. It seems like at least in wisconsin here all the small telcos have very good networks in the rural. Then you move outside our boundary to centurylink customers and they cant even get basic dsl.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
minerat (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 8:27pm

Re: No immoral equivalence
I see where you're coming from, but I don't think he made a moral equivalence. He was just paring down his argument to the most objective (or lease objectionable) level to show how strong it still is even if you discount everything an opponent might disagree with.

You're well known in the industry and have a huge predisposition to Susan's argument and advocate for many of the things she's saying. You didn't misrepresent yourself at all, and that's not why your review was discounted. It was simply to remove reviews with any possible perception of bias. Your review is honest and forthright, but it's not unbiased. As it is, I happen to agree with you and support the Free Press, and this is still how I saw the whole point.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Brian, 29 Jul 2013 @ 8:29pm

Response to: kenichi tanaka on Jul 29th, 2013 @ 1:12pm
I believe that by "households having access to broadband," they mean to say services are available, not that they actually have it. Still, it's ridiculous. I'm currently an American stationed in South Korea. $40/month for a 100 gb connection.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
tacticus, 29 Jul 2013 @ 8:40pm

Re: Response to: kenichi tanaka on Jul 29th, 2013 @ 1:12pm
Isn't it also the case that they have access if only one house in a zip code has access.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Sideshow Billybob, 29 Jul 2013 @ 9:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
If everyone reads the REPORTED, censored comments, as you've posted, then how is it "censored?" More times than not, I've read the "censored" comments and discovered that they were justifiably flagged more times than not. Now quit whining about being "censored" and try and contribute something on the subject at hand instead of this verbal masturbation at the sight of a Masnick post.

Oh, I also flagged this useless vomitous mass of a "post" of yours too.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That One Guy (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 9:13pm

Re: Fine Line
Well those administrative 'bonuses' and CEO vacations aren't going to pay for themselves you know. /s
[ link to this | view in thread ]
David, 29 Jul 2013 @ 9:14pm

Astroturf not easy to spot
I disagree that astroturf campaigns are easy to spot. I think they're all too effective these days. I'm convinced but don't have definitive proof, that Samsung waged such a campaign in the trenches against Apple and the Android users took up the cause as their own. Samsung was proven to have paid people to write disparaging posts and reviews for HTC, but not directly against Apple. Yet the wave of anti-Apple posts that appeared right as key Samsung marketing campaigns were going on seemed too much of a coincidence. It followed a similar pattern of all posts repeating the same talking points.

It is demoralizing when the appearance of democratization of the internet is turned on itself to still be controlled by corporate special interests.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Fred, 29 Jul 2013 @ 9:20pm

Astroturfed forums
People are sheep. If an astroturf effort is successful, bystanders will join the mob carrying the message of the astroturfers. This extends to forum websites as well. One such site is gm-volt.com. Any comment that isn't glowing about the Chevy Volt is attacked by the community or the poster magically disappears with frequent banning. The community joins in sometimes laughable hug fests talking about how incredible their purchase experience is. Its a filtered, controlled, curated community that gives the passerby messages GM would be proud of, either by coincidence or by design.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 9:27pm

Re:
The numbers are legit. The 119 million without broadband all live in just 5% of American homes. Many of them don't live in any home at all, for that matter
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2013 @ 10:34pm

Re: Astroturf not easy to spot
David, meet Fred. Fred, meet David. Oh wait, you're the same person, posting comments using two names 6 minutes apart.

Not very clever.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mike Masnick (profile), 29 Jul 2013 @ 10:56pm

Re: No immoral equivalence
Mike, I'm usually a fan. This time, however, you're completely off the mark. My review of Susan's book does not represent the same problem as the astroturfing attacks of paid corporate shills.

Huh? Tim, I never even came close to suggesting that. Perhaps read the entire post again, because you appear to have read into it something I never said or even suggested in the slightest.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Riley, 29 Jul 2013 @ 11:29pm

Re: Yelp filtering
Yelp filtering 80% bs. They filter all kinds of legit reviews (good and bad). Then they have been know to call businesses and offer to audit the reviews for a price. For small businesses that don't have a lot of reviews this can really hurt.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
GEH, 29 Jul 2013 @ 11:38pm

Check the grammar / spelling quality
Just a hunch from reading your samples but i bet if you analyzed the grammar, the astroturf reviews would stand out. Those samples in the story are way too well written and well structured. People write reviews quickly and emotionally, not like an essay paper.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
tor, 30 Jul 2013 @ 12:12am

Re: Ac spam poster, complaining about 'censorship'
Techdirt isn't censoring you - the community flags posts it deems stupid, irrelevant, or offensive - kind of acting like a hive mind; protecting us all from your inane babble!

Your whole shtick is ad hominem attacks on the author, who you seem to have some creepy love/hate/stalker type relationship - if i could offer you any advice it would be this: try and gain a sense of perspective, and attempt to express yourself with eloquence/clarity, & perhaps you won't be 'censored' in the future! good luck
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Howard (profile), 30 Jul 2013 @ 12:30am

Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
I gave you an insightful, because imho this is a real problem on TD, but few seem to care. Mike and TD staff did not even respond to most of my suggestions regarding this.

It's disappointing when there's a hot topic, and I check out the comment section and shillpuke and trollshit everywhere. Kills the mood to make any comment or read through the cesspool they generated.

I'm starting to flag pointless responses to the trolls too, so maybe they're collapsed.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Ericka, 30 Jul 2013 @ 1:41am

Reviews helps a costumer in buying a product and there are other review sites like reviewtiger.com and Yelp that could filter reviews.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
William Payne, 30 Jul 2013 @ 2:00am

Enforcement
The contractors and technology firms that provide these Astro-Turfing services - are they not likely to be the very same contractors that provide staff and support services to the NSA?

Are you sure that you want to speak up against this? Is it wise? Are you not afraid that you will be singled out for *special treatment*?

After all, in this brave new world of ours, we do not know who holds the reigns, and we do not know the dangers of criticising the powers that be.

Best to stay quiet, bend over, and spread 'em.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
gv, 30 Jul 2013 @ 2:11am

"First, I looked at what percentage of the reviews included some sort of folksy reference to their job...It's irrelevant -- but if you're a clueless DC astroturfing firm trying to sound like everyday common folk, it might be something you do."

well know they know what to do differently next time
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 30 Jul 2013 @ 2:58am

Re: Re: Re: Is this shilling for Crawford's book? Or just coincidence
Techdirt's not pro-censorship. Anti-idiocy, but not pro-censorship.

You would've thought that a respected solar panel engineer would know not to be a dumbass.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 30 Jul 2013 @ 2:59am

Re: Did you actually READ the BOOK ???
Obviously you didn't, jackass, because your solar panel wife told you not to.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Ninja (profile), 30 Jul 2013 @ 4:06am

Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
Maybe yes, maybe no. However I've seen the most awesome replies to trolls at times. Karl did a wonderful job last week in a post smashing the troll to bits and adding a valuable layer of information.

I'd say we need to educate ourselves to try to respond like that, smashing their logic to bits and adding info. Or simply don't reply. I've been trying to do that albeit sometimes I do fail ;)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Howard (profile), 30 Jul 2013 @ 5:04am

Re: Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
There is no prob. smashing it once, or maybe twice. The constant unintelligent, uninformative, repetitive troll bashing is getting ridiculous, and discourages real discussion.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mike-2 Alpha (profile), 30 Jul 2013 @ 5:53am

Re: Re: Now I'll Buy
On the sound stage used to film the moon landing, no doubt.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Pragmatic, 30 Jul 2013 @ 6:01am

Re:
Agreed.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Pragmatic, 30 Jul 2013 @ 6:03am

Re: Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
If you're so damn upset that we're not looking to see how high you swing, AJ, why not leave this site and find people who agree with you?

Is it because you actually can't?

I flagged your comment too. Consider yourself AJ-censored.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Pragmatic, 30 Jul 2013 @ 6:07am

Re: Re: Re: Is this shilling for Crawford's book? Or just coincidence
Now THAT is cruel and unusual punishment!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Sharon, 30 Jul 2013 @ 6:12am

Another observation
To me, the reviews sounded like they were written by the same person with a stick up his @$$. I didn't notice a single contraction in any of them. Not a single "I'm," "don't," or "I've" in the bunch. I think that at the very least a real truck driver and the yokel from Kentucky would've used more casual speech than the OCD/anal retentive examples you provided.

P.S. Awesome sleuthing, by the way. :-)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Zachary Parker, 30 Jul 2013 @ 6:36am

Response to: kenichi tanaka on Jul 29th, 2013 @ 1:12pm
Are you sure that's what they're saying? My impression was that 5% of homes in America do not have any availability (no ability to purchase) broadband internet, while 35% of homes don't currently pay for broadband even though some of them can.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
AC Unknown (profile), 30 Jul 2013 @ 6:39am

Re: Re:
You're responding to the wrong person.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Benjamin, 30 Jul 2013 @ 7:13am

Ha, the top review is a spoof of the other one star reviews ;)

http://www.amazon.com/review/R1150DW8W7EM1/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0300153139&l inkCode=&nodeID=&tag=
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Constant Reader, 30 Jul 2013 @ 7:31am

I'm a little confused. About a year ago it was decided here, more or less emphatically, that the occurrence of fake reviews at Amazon was a "non-story". This in spite of the fact that a million-dollar business crashed and burned from the revelation, and some high-profile writers of best-selling books found their reputations tarnished.

Your investigation makes interesting reading, but you'd have done well to learn from the investigations of Jeremy Duns, and read the Guardian and NYT pieces about fake review services. Fake reviewers are smart enough to be verified purchasers.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Timothy Karr, 30 Jul 2013 @ 7:34am

Re: Re: No immoral equivalence
Mike -- This isn't really worth wasting any more of our time on. The main focus of your post is spot on. There's even a follow up work to be done exposing the DC-based PR firms that hire out people to do this sort of comment trolling and review rating. Sadly, this is just another part of Washington's shady influence industry.

Briefly, my point is this: Free Press legitimacy as a defender of Internet users rests on our NOT being tainted by any of the industry money that's behind so many of the other voices in these broadband debates. We're not the "flip side" of the same coin that created the likes of Scott Cleland and Richard Bennett. We're not even cast from the same metal.

When we formed Free Press 10 years ago we deliberately decided not to pursue that funding model. As a result we have had to turn away millions in direct and in-kind contributions from the tech and communications industry. We've never regretted that decision.

Perhaps I did misread your post but it comes across pretty clearly as a discounting of my review as the product of just another DC-based wonk with skin in the game. I object to that characterization. That's all.

And for the record: 1. I'm not based in DC 2. I'm not a policy analyst and 3. Free Press is not a think tank.

Moving on ...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
r, 30 Jul 2013 @ 8:49am

Re: Now I'll Buy
how do we know you're real? do you drive a truck?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
John Fenderson (profile), 30 Jul 2013 @ 9:38am

Re: Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
I gave you an insightful, because imho this is a real problem on TD, but few seem to care

Don't equate not agreeing with not caring. I don't think this is a real problem here. The overwhelming majority of collapsed comments are flagged for obvious, legitimate reasons that have nothing to do with being "dissenting".

If I thought otherwise, I'd care a lot.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
John Fenderson (profile), 30 Jul 2013 @ 9:39am

Re: Re: Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
ugh, I mismatched the context of your comment. Please ignore. :)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Jeff, 30 Jul 2013 @ 9:49am

Fake controversy
Forget this book and its fake controversy. Instead read a real banned book �America Deceived II� by a real outlaw author.
Last link of �America Deceived II� before it is completely censored:
http://www.amazon.com/America-Deceived-II-Possession-interrogation/dp/1450257437
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 30 Jul 2013 @ 9:53am

Re: Re: Re: No immoral equivalence
See, folks? This is how you rebut an argument - with some heat, some respect and lots of well-reasoned arguments.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
digi_owl, 30 Jul 2013 @ 9:55am

Response to: Ninja on Jul 29th, 2013 @ 1:07pm
Something similar was claimed by one of the Moderators over on Boingboing. Whenever certain topics popped up, there would be a flood of very similar sounding comments. And looking over the IP addresses, they pointed back to a "Internet image management" company.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 30 Jul 2013 @ 9:57am

Re:
...Which is the point, really. Times change, and so do the methods of damage control.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That One Guy (profile), 30 Jul 2013 @ 10:12am

Re: Re: Astroturf not easy to spot
What's really funny is when they miss out on the reason behind those 'decorative snowflakes' just to the left of their name, namely the fact that they aren't so 'decorative' after all, but serve a useful purpose.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
dennis deems (profile), 30 Jul 2013 @ 10:13am

Re:
Hehe good spoof. Hope it was written by somebody here. :D
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Karl (profile), 30 Jul 2013 @ 10:16am

Re: Re: Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
Consider yourself AJ-censored.

That's probably not AJ. I've never seen him abuse caps or put spaces between words and punctuation, like this person consistently does.

If anything, it reads more like English-impaired idiots like OOTB, or (blast from the past) Darryl.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 30 Jul 2013 @ 10:22am

Re: Re:
Censorship implies removal of access.

The flag report system is a system that says this persons posts do not have a redeeming quality and are thus hidden.

There are dissenting comments on many posts which are not hidden, that's because they bring something of value to the discussion, something relevant to the topic at hand.

In fact, some of the ruder responses to troll comments tend to get reported as well, as it should be.

Ad homimens, misleading, and focusing on trying to discredit Masnick without evidence are all frowned upon and are a quick way to get your comment hidden.

Just look at his post on cell phones after the Boston Bombing, lots of people disagreed with him, but comments weren't hidden.

Free speech does not give you a right to be heard, only the right to say it. And much like anything else in life, saying something has consequences, which you must learn to deal with.

Evidence, not rhetoric, not strawmanning, and not ad homs are what will get you heard.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 30 Jul 2013 @ 11:00am

Re: Re: Astroturfers / shills can be effective
I agree. The biggest enemy of the govt-industrial complex is the shills themselves. By their own words we can expose their lies. By their own laws we can substantiate their corruption (ie: 95+ year copy protection lengths and retroactive extensions). By their actions we can prove their allegiance.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070621/004352.shtml
http://www.techdirt.com/artic les/20100305/0317058431.shtml
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100630/14391410029.shtml

"As you know, there is also [then-MPAA president] Jack Valenti's proposal for term to last forever less one day."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act

Their own words, their laws, and their actions are their own worst enemy from a PR perspective.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

out_of_the_blue, 30 Jul 2013 @ 11:07am

FEATURED STORY... Really? WHY?
What's so important about this item, even if your imaginings were true, that you're putting it up fixed in second place? Particularly after complaints from several that it's annoying because one stops reading the front page soon as recognize a prior title.

Just read what Mike presents. Though HIGHLY unusual that a list of prominent people posted reviews of the book, Mike just explicitly dismisses those (he tends to throw out all data that don't fit his prior notions), but then DOES find it unusual that others would state their jobs. In contrast, I think it entirely normal that after ivory-tower weenies give their supposed creds to try and lend approval to the book, that other people disliking the book would establish their "proletarian roots", so to speak.

But since there's no actual proof one way or other, why bother worrying about it? Reviews are slanted all the time at Amazon, just part of the game. And pushing it for a second day? HMM.

So I conclude that some ulterior reason moves you, 'cause this is minor, rather ordinary, and insubstantiable.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 30 Jul 2013 @ 11:44am

Re:
I suggest you might not understand the difference between "has access to" and "has". The overwhelming majority of americans have access to high-speed broadband. But many many people choose not to subscribe. That's the difference between the two numbers.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
JMT (profile), 30 Jul 2013 @ 6:17pm

Re: Re: Re: No immoral equivalence
"Mike -- This isn't really worth wasting any more of our time on."

In other words, "Oh shit, you're right..."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
spixleatedlifeform (profile), 31 Jul 2013 @ 7:48pm

Re: Really? You are incensed?
Incensed, huh? And yet you have the clue to the truth right there in your statement. On the one hand you act all huffy that "Only 3-5% of homes in the US do not have access to wired broadband services". But then you say in the very next paragraph " that only "3-5%" of homes don't have wired broadband services"?

Dude! Can't you tell the difference between "having" and "having access"? A real world of difference. You ought to read her book, even if you have to borrow a copy from a library. You might find the error of your ways. So many reasons why those who may "have access to broadband" don't "have broadband". It isn't because they're cheap. It's because DSL only works if you live next door to the telecom exchange. The real speeds of DSL fall unbelievably rapidly with distance. The price of cable internet access as a stand alone service is jaw dropping.

The solution--universal access to fiber optic cable TO THE HOME/BUSINESS has been cancelled while the service providers wait for a conservative Congress to put the funding on the backs of taxpayers while keeping the ownership of that infrastructure private.

My only complaint about her book is she missed THE critical aspect of the subject matter--internet delivered video and the codec used for compression/decompression in light of "metered service", whether wired or mobile.

READ THE BOOK!

SPLF
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Richard Bennett (profile), 7 Aug 2013 @ 1:38pm

Playing Masnick for a Fool
Really, Mike, you can't be serious. Yes, it's obvious that there are a number of fake 1 star reviews of Crawford's book and you and Karl Bode have ferreted them out, quite innocently I'm sure.

It's also the case that these reviews are SO FAKE and SO FORMULAIC that no one would ever have taken them seriously in the first place. You don't have to get past the first word of the fake reviews to see that: They all start with "I" or "As".

Somebody on the pro-Crawford side has been writing a fake one-star review every two or three days since March in order to push the legit one star reviews down to the last page of reviews by helpfulness. Look at how they've voted my review: 20 of 950 called it helpful. As if.

Most of the five star reviews were written by people who haven't read the book, and a surprising number of them complain about astroturfing; that's probably not a coincidence. Why leave a review of a book the reviewer admits to not having read? Many of the five star reviews do just this. This is sort of thing that happens around any issue in which Free Press is involved; their members flood the FCC with junk one-paragraph comments on every inquiry related to net neutrality. Just saying.

The questions that people should have asked about Crawford's book relate to accuracy and research, but this fake-fake-grassroots complaint will prevent any rational discussion.

Good job, Mike: you've been had by a double-reverse, fake/fake grassroots campaign to raise the credibility of a poorly researched and poorly reasoned analysis.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Richard Bennett (profile), 7 Aug 2013 @ 9:30pm

Re: Re: Re: No immoral equivalence
Me thinks Tim Karr doth protest too much. While Free Press is funded primarily by foundations, there's no denying that it coordinates its campaigns with commercial interests. Free Press owned the "Save the Internet" campaign funded by commercial interests seeking favorable Internet regulations under the "net neutrality" umbrella.

Unlike Tim Karr, I'm not a professional public relations hack. I'm the technologist who co-invented Ethernet switching and Wi-Fi and I only work on policy issues I approve of for technical reasons.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mike Masnick (profile), 7 Aug 2013 @ 10:53pm

Re: Playing Masnick for a Fool
Good job, Mike: you've been had by a double-reverse, fake/fake grassroots campaign to raise the credibility of a poorly researched and poorly reasoned analysis.

Let's run through this "theory" of yours to do a quick demonstration of just how incredibly delusional and whacked out it is.

Here's your argument: Free Press -- an organization that is very supportive of Susan Crawford and her book, and whose director of strategy is one of the named positive reviewers of the book -- decided that they would publish ~25 1-star reviews (again, for a book they like and support) and make them feel so "obviously" fake that 6 months after the book is published a "stooge" such as myself would come across it, make a stink about it, leading an uninformed mob that support Free Press to suddenly bombard the book with positive reviews *and* vote the world's most perfect 1-star review that you wrote as "unhelpful."

The level of insanity it takes to think that this is a legitimate strategy or that anyone actually carried it out is stupendous.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Timothy Karr, 8 Aug 2013 @ 9:46am

Re: Re: Playing Masnick for a Fool
Drat!

And our plan would have worked if it wasn't for that meddling Bennett and his dog Scooby.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Richard Bennett (profile), 8 Aug 2013 @ 1:11pm

Re: Re: Playing Masnick for a Fool
Sorry, Mike, but that's not what I'm saying at all, but I can understand your hurt feelings at realizing you've been played. Crawford discussed her upcoming book on the Comcast/NBCU merger on a panel she and I were on a couple of years ago, and it naturally piqued my interest. I was among the first to read and review Crawford's book, and I've seen the whole ebb and flow of the reviews on Amazon since January, not just the little snapshot Karl Bode lead you to. From the beginning, there have been a number of short, poorly spelled, and generally illiterate five star reviews that show the same level of insight as the FCC comments Free Press solicits. There has also been a pattern of down-voting the one star reviews. This is an unusual book in the sense that nearly all the reviews are either one star or five star.

Some of the one star reviews are very thoughtful, well researched pieces written by experts who highlight Crawford's analytical and factual shortcomings. These one star reviews are now nearly impossible to find because they're buried under the bogus one star reviews in the time sort as well as in the "helpfulness" sort.

There are many more five star reviews that one star reviews, and I'd be willing to bet that more than one advocacy group has asked members to go to Amazon and place five star reviews. With the ratio firmly in favor of Crawford, why wouldn't they then add just enough one star phony reviews to keep the thoughtful reviews from being read?

You underestimate the deviousness of the players in this debate, but I've seen their tricks up close.

Now I don't know who wrote the fake reviews any more than you do - neither of us has evidence of their authorship. But Occam's Razor isn't proof.

It's funny how this story just fell into your lap, isn't it?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mike Masnick (profile), 8 Aug 2013 @ 6:18pm

Re: Re: Re: Playing Masnick for a Fool
I've seen the whole ebb and flow of the reviews on Amazon since January, not just the little snapshot Karl Bode lead you to

Karl did not lead me to a little snapshot. I put together a spreadsheet looking at every single review.

From the beginning, there have been a number of short, poorly spelled, and generally illiterate five star reviews that show the same level of insight as the FCC comments Free Press solicits. There has also been a pattern of down-voting the one star reviews. This is an unusual book in the sense that nearly all the reviews are either one star or five star.

It is not uncommon for "political" books to have a heavy rate of 5 stars and 1 stars. Also, welcome to Amazon's comments. Most are short, generally illiterate without much insight. That's true on everything.

The downvoting came from people pointing out that many of the one star reviews were obviously fake. That your review got swept up in that wave, well, when you lie down with the dogs...

Some of the one star reviews are very thoughtful, well researched pieces written by experts who highlight Crawford's analytical and factual shortcomings.

And, in my post, which you clearly did not read, I named all of those and said, quite explicitly that I had no issue with those.

These one star reviews are now nearly impossible to find because they're buried under the bogus one star reviews in the time sort as well as in the "helpfulness" sort.

They're not at all hard to find.

There are many more five star reviews that one star reviews

When I made the post they were about equal. It was only after the post went viral that there were a ton of 5 star reviews added. And, as I said, I find those problematic as well, but those are a reaction to the fake one star reviews, not part of any systematic effort to deceive.

You underestimate the deviousness of the players in this debate, but I've seen their tricks up close.

Actually, I think I've made it clear that I know exactly who is being devious.

It's funny how this story just fell into your lap, isn't it?

Not really, because it didn't. But, let's see you keep digging, Richard.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Richard Bennett (profile), 8 Aug 2013 @ 8:46pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Playing Masnick for a Fool
OK, here's the Twitter chain where Karl Bode clued you into the story: https://twitter.com/KarlBode/status/359357982485647361 . Unless you were playing along, it did fall into your lap from Karl, so don't try to bullshit me.

If you count the upvotes and downvotes, you'll see that the reviews by Roslyn Layton and I both got an unusually large number of "unhelpful" votes; over 900 in my case, and almost 1300 for her. None of the other 1 star reviews got more than 500 votes of any kind, and many of the obviously fake 1 star reviews got exactly "4 of 412 people found the following review helpful".

That's a very, very odd coincidence.

The rather unremarkable review by Tim Karr got "411 of 422 people found the following review helpful" so we can reasonably connect Karr's 411 fans with ... gee, you tell me, Mr. Comment Analyzer.

Now I smell a story.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Richard Bennett (profile), 9 Aug 2013 @ 12:52pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Playing Masnick for a Fool
There's no denying this: Whatever the origin of the fake reviews you so carefully analyzed in your spreadsheet may have been, your story itself has produced an order of magnitude more corruption to the sanctity of the Amazon review process.

There were maybe a couple dozen formulaic fake reviews a couple of weeks ago, but the Reddit onslaught has brought 400 angry visitors to Amazon who have altered the helpful/unhelpful ratings balance beyond recognition.

At this point, both the 5 star review with the highest rating - Loyd E. Eskildson's - and the 1 star with the highest rating are clearly fake. The non-real name, non-verified purchaser Eskildson produces four book reviews a day on most days, which suggests an account used by several PR agents to pump products, is the top rated 5 star review, and the top-rated 1 star is the parody review by you pal from Reddit.

Add that to the downvotes to Layton's and my reviews that were partly the result of Reddit and partly from a Free Press plea to members to vote them down and vote Karr's up (they do this sort of thing, you know) and you've got a totally corrupt process.

But none of this is news, this is the way tribalism works at Amazon and on the Internet as a whole.

Anytime you and Bode and Karr want to stop attacking me on Twitter would be fine.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Rikuo (profile), 10 Aug 2013 @ 3:11am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Playing Masnick for a Fool
I know this comment comes a day late to yours Mr. Bennett, but I thought I'd give a stab at it.
Just to get it out of the way, I have not read the book, nor do I plan to. Outside of this article, I don't think I've heard of the author.
What you are proposing, and please correct me on any mistakes I make, is that an author publishes her book, which is supported by Organisation X. Org X wants this book to sell, wants as many people as possible to read it, because the viewpoint of the book matches their viewpoint. However, according to your theory, your own 1-star review threatens them so much that to stop the damage your review could do to the book's sales...they then go around and leave a bunch of OTHER 1-star reviews, so as to drive your review further down the page.
I'm sorry but I personally find your theory ridiculous and full of holes. In fact, I equate the ridiculousness of your theory to the ridiculousness of one of our resident trolls here, AJ, who constantly says that his comments are being "censored" and providing all sorts of crazy theories as to how they are, while ignoring the very real, very more obvious evidence that if he were being censored, we wouldn't be able to see his comments at all.
Is your theory Mr Bennett physically impossible? No, it very well can happen. Is it a likely theory? No, the idea of a supporter of a book trying to mitigate the damage of a 1 star review by burying it beneath a ton of other 1 star reviews is unlikely to the point of not even needing to be considered.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Richard Bennett (profile), 10 Aug 2013 @ 5:23pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Playing Masnick for a Fool
On the face of it, the theory that Free Press, Karl Bode, Reddit, Masnick, or some other professional telecom-hater would write 1 star reviews of a book that supports the viewpoint of their corporate paymasters is implausible, I'll agree with you on that. It only starts to make sense when we look at what Masnick is doing with this story, the predictable way that the story itself has affected the Amazon reviews, and Masnick's agenda.

But you can also look at it in terms of raw numbers. There are 128 of the 5 star reviews and 32 of the 1 star reviews, so the balance of preferences is quite one sided.

I don't know about others, but when I look at Amazon reviews, I read one page of 5 stars and one page of 1 stars and judge the product by the intelligence of those reviews. If the 5 stars seem to have been written by morons and the 1 stars by smart people, I conclude that the product sucks and vice versa.

If that's the general pattern, I would want to make sure that the first page of 1 star reviews is totally lame, as these faked reviews are. As long as the balance of reviews is strongly in favor of the 5 star tribe, I can do that without jeopardizing the overall impression formed by people who simply compare the counts of the reviews at different star levels.

Now I don't really know if that happened, any more than Masnick knows that telecom lobbyists wrote most of the 1 star reviews as his article claims. I'm saying that we can speculate about several sources and reasons for the bad reviews and all that anyone can do is speculate since whoever wrote them isn't going to admit it.

Masnick made no effort to disclose the fact that something like 95% of all the Captive Audience reviews - both the 5s and the 1s - were written by people who obviously hadn't read the book. Most were written by people who were urged to write reviews by some advocacy group. Why single out a few 1 star reviews that are obviously phony when there are four or five times as many 5 star reviews that are also phony?

Masnick is probably just doing what he thinks his corporate paymasters want him to do. He's a reasonably clever boy, so he's probably right that they'll pat him on the head and give him a cookie for bringing 400 angry Redditards into the supposed fray.

This is really all kind of sad, frankly. Crawford's book is crap, and the interests who like it have not been well served by it because her arguments are so lame and easily rebutted. That's probably a good thing overall, so I won't complain further.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
AzureSky (profile), 13 Aug 2013 @ 3:00pm

we need a 4th vote option, something covering stupid and delusional, this guy (Dick Bennett) is about as delusional as they get from what i can tell....

Dick, sorry if this upsets you but, damn man, you couldnt be a more blatant shill if you had tattoos allover your body for the companies/industries you support/work for.

your posts here are enough for me to see you need psychiatric help, reading your stuff about how great broadband in this country is.......just makes it more and more clear how urgently you need that help.....to bad you can pray the stupid away...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 13 Aug 2013 @ 8:07pm

Ha. I love everyone citing Occam's razor. Isn't the simplest theory for the book's 1-star rating just that it sucks?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2013 @ 1:58am

darryl just hates it when due process is enforced.
[ link to this | view in thread ]