Even Powering Down A Cell Phone Can't Keep The NSA From Tracking Its Location
from the making-a-strong-case-for-Snowden's-fridge-logic dept
We know how much information the NSA can grab in terms of cell phone usage -- namely, calls made and received and length of conversations, along with phone and phone card metadata like IMSI and IMEI numbers. It can even grab location data, although for some reason, it claims it never does. (No matter, plenty of law enforcement agencies like gathering location data, so it's not like that information is going to waste [bleak approximation of laughter]).
According to Ryan Gallagher at Slate, the NSA, along with other agencies, are able to something most would feel to be improbable, if not impossible: track the location of cell phones even if they're turned off.
On Monday, the Washington Post published a story focusing on how massively the NSA has grown since the 9/11 attacks. Buried within it, there was a small but striking detail: By September 2004, the NSA had developed a technique that was dubbed “The Find” by special operations officers. The technique, the Post reports, was used in Iraq and “enabled the agency to find cellphones even when they were turned off.” This helped identify “thousands of new targets, including members of a burgeoning al-Qaeda-sponsored insurgency in Iraq,” according to members of the special operations unit interviewed by the Post.Normally, turning a cell phone off cuts the connection to towers, effectively taking it off the grid and making it only traceable to the last point it was connected. The Post article doesn't explain exactly how the NSA accomplishes it, but other incidents over the past half-decade offer a few indications of how this might be done.
In 2006, it was reported that the FBI had deployed spyware to infect suspects’ mobile phones and record data even when they were turned off... In 2009, thousands of BlackBerry users in the United Arab Emirates were targeted with spyware that was disguised as a legitimate update. The update drained users’ batteries and was eventually exposed by researchers, who identified that it had apparently been designed by U.S. firm SS8, which sells “lawful interception” tools to help governments conduct surveillance of communications.The FBI's use, in which cell phones' microphones were remotely activated to record conversations (even with the phones turned off), probably had some bearing on Snowden's request that journalists power down their phones and place them in the fridge.
According to Gallagher, the NSA may be using mass updates to infect phones of targets overseas (and presumably, any "non-targets" applying the same faux update). This would be difficult, but not impossible, and considering what we've learned about the NSA's far-reaching surveillance net, certainly not implausible. A couple of details in support of that theory:
First, two telcos that provide service to millions of cell phone users are known to be overly cooperative with intelligence agencies. You may recall the fact that Verizon and AT&T notably did not sign the collective letter asking the government to allow affected companies to release information on government requests for data. Given this background, it's not unimaginable that Verizon and AT&T would accommodate the NSA (and FBI) if it wished to use their update systems to push these trojans.
Add to this the fact that Microsoft and others have allowed intelligence agencies early access to security flaws, allowing them to exploit these for a certain length of time before informing the public and patching the holes. Add these two together and you've got the means and the opportunity to serve snooping malware to millions of unsuspecting cell phone users.
Sparing usage, properly targeted isn't really an issue. But if updates containing spyware have been pushed to the thousands of non-targeted individuals just to ensure the targets are included, it becomes more problematic, and the track record of the two agencies who have used this technology is far from pristine.
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Filed Under: fbi, mobile phones, nsa, nsa surveillance, surveillance, tracking, trojans
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Pull the battery
Another possible malware administration route would be a Stingray masquerading as a normal cell tower.
IMO, installing spyware on someone's phone or computer is an extremely intrusive act that should, if permitted at all, require a narrow and specific warrant. It's very much equivalent to planting a bug or a camera in someone's home or office, and they surely need a warrant backed by a buttload of probable cause to do that.
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Re: Pull the battery
Taking the battery out would definitely stop the microphone from working and would prevent the GPS function of the phone from working.
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Re: Re: Re: Pull the battery
In which case, you just put the phone in a faraday cage (wrapping it in aluminum foil is adequate).
But if you do this, be aware that your phone will drain its battery much more quickly. Cell phones boost their transmitting power when they aren't finding cell towers.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Pull the battery
If you put it in airplane mode, turn it off, and cage it and come back to a dead battery, then you have good evidence of phone-home malware having gotten onto the phone and may want to talk to your lawyer as you may have a cause of action.
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Re: Re: Re: Pull the battery
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Can the battery be tracked?
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Re: Pull the battery
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Re: Pull the battery
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Re: Pull the battery
The "Patriot" Act
"Patriotism" is overrated
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Re: Pull the battery
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Re: Pull the battery
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Re: Re: Re: Pull the battery
You're so right, i take apart lots of phones, hardly any have a 2nd battery.
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Re: Re: Re: Pull the battery
EDIT!! yes, SOME DO, most don't. sorry for saying they don't, it was an accident.
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Re: Pull the battery
And before you spout off about how that's all crap...
For years all the internet know it all's kept saying that they couldn't use your phone to spy on you. Then when that came out those it became "well yeah they can, but just shut it off and problem solved". Then it became "well duh, everyone knows that... Jeez where have you been?"
So no offense, but I for one am done listening to internet know it all's in comments sections.
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Re: Pull the battery
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What lg model was it ?
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A few weeks ago, I dropped my phone into the washing machine and totally ruined it. I wonder what the Feds would think if a phone suddenly went off the grid for good, on account of something like that.
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Analog TVs emitted a signal at around 38MHz, where you can listen to the sound portion of whatever the TV is tuned to.
I know, because I did that, as a kid, to get TV after bedtime without my parents ever getting wise to what I was up to. I would turn on the TV in my bedroom and turn down the sound and picture, and simply tune a police band receiver to the right frequency, put on my headphones, and enjoy.
It is this same method that cable companies likely used to try and catch people stealing pay TV, in the days of analog TVs. Just have a receiver tuned to the right frequency and then just listen in on what people are watching.
I have no doubt this method was used by East Germany, Cuba, and North Korea to catch people watching Western TV programming, back in the days of analog TV.
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Jul 23rd, 2013 @ 3:24pm
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Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Jul 23rd, 2013 @ 3:24pm
Otherwise snowden would simply have people put their phone in a metal cage of some type.
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Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Jul 23rd, 2013 @ 3:24pm
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Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Jul 23rd, 2013 @ 3:24pm
Its called a hammer
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BTW does the light stay one?
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No. It switches to zero.
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leaving the light one
M
G!
Okay, it's 5 years later and you STILL win the Nobel prize for internet comments!
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Jul 23rd, 2013 @ 3:24pm
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Well That Certainly Explains the "No Rooting" Stance
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Re: Well That Certainly Explains the "No Rooting" Stance
In order for a felony conviction to stick under the law, they would have to prove that it was done for "commerical or private financial gain", and rooting/jailbreaking a phone for one's own personal use does would not be covered by that.
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Re: Re: Well That Certainly Explains the "No Rooting" Stance
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My theory is I'm paid for the damn thing with my money so who's to say i can't do as I please with it? It's like buying a car but the dealer tells you that you can't put seat covers on... Doesn't make sense
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Re: Well That Certainly Explains the "No Rooting" Stance
REMOVE BATTERY
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I read sometime back that criminals who are required to wear GPS ankle bracelets do this to keep the device from getting the GPS signal.
Using tinfoil to defeat government tracking is not against any current law.
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Thank you. Now some idiot in Washington is going to propose a law to do just that!
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The RTC battery cannot be used for tracking. First, it is connected only to the RTC circuitry, and not to the radios, the CPU, or the audio codec. Second, it is designed for very low power use; using it for anything other than powering the RTC would drain it quickly, and it is not rechargeable.
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So, if you can get an older phone, such as the Samsung Admire, such a backup battery is not there, and you can defeat government snooping by removing the battery.
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Response to: Mike on Jul 23rd, 2013 @ 3:50pm
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Re: "there is in fact a second battery in every phone"
That is no where near true. Hardly any have yhat, except zte's, lg xpression, motorola atrix.
Which models did you have in mind ?
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So the tiny battery keeps the data in your RAM intact, but does not supply enough power to read that data. Your phone is OFF.
But go ahead, it's more amusing to watch you paranoid tin foil ass hats, carrying on like 3 year olds..
You claim you 'know' technology, you idiots don't have a fucking clue..
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Try to maintain your composure in future posts.
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Nothing you've said proves you have any more of a fucking clue than us idiots. You sound a lot more like an idiot than most here however.
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A lot of people commonly refer to ROM in cell phones but they are really using it as a lazy abbreviation for non-volatile memory. ROM, more precisely, cannot be written to after it has been programmed a single time. Cell phones use FLASH memory, and sometimes EEPROM as well, that can be re-written and does not require a battery to maintain memory contents. NOR FLASH has been used to store executable code as it is byte accessible and can execute code in place. However, the use of NOR FLASH is declining as NAND FLASH had been improved so that it can emulate NOR capabilities. NAND FLASH is used to store; firmware, OS code, configuration, application code and data, SMS messages, photos, and video. User generated data can be stored on FLASH based media cards if the phone has connections for one.
You seem to be confusing Static RAM (SRAM) and Dynamic RAM (DRAM). Both types are used in cell phones. DRAM is cheaper than SRAM and is used whenever access speed is not a critical factor. DRAM is not usable as non-volatile memory. The data contained in DRAM is lost when the chip has no power. There is no battery backup.
SRAM is used when faster memory is needed and to reduce power consumption. The SRAM memory in the cell phone is primarily used to store frequently accessed data and temporary variables generated by the baseband processing ASIC and for cache used by the CPU. When not in active use (standby mode), the contents are maintained with a very small amount of current. There is no battery backup to maintain contents while the phone is turned off.
I am not a cell phone expert but, apparently, a small coin battery is used to power the internal clock chip on the phone. I looked this up and I must say it is suspicious that the same text appears in innumerable web-sites. At any rate, such a battery cannot be used to power all the circuitry in the phone.
So, the question remains. Is the "off" setting on, at least some, phones a software, low power, setting or is everything really powered off. The NSA trick apparently requires "malware" to spoof the off setting while keeping the phone at least partially on.
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us idiots with no clue
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They'll say FOSS Phones are illegal, because they can't 'legally' spy on us, even though it's illegal under the Constitution.
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Regarding the capture of geolocation data
The weasel-words phrase is of course, "under this program". Given the track record of NSA statements and their relation to the truth you can interpret this as you will.
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So, if Snowden is the amazing tech expert as you claim, why is he saying put the phone in the fridge, a fridge is not an effective faraday cage (as someone here has found out).
Putting a turned on phone in the fridge will NOT stop it from talking to a tower.
Signals would enter the fridge through the seals and so on.
Wrap it in foil, and place it in a tin car, like a biscuit tin, that might work..
Or just stop being so paranoid, and stupid.
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Think before you rant.
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maybe, rather than wrapping in tin foil...just leave it in the car.
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Jul 23rd, 2013 @ 6:48pm
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You can remotely turn phones on
Just over three years ago we installed a program on our company issued cell phones that our drivers used during the daytime. The software we were running was still very new and under development. For the first three months we had the power to remotely turn phones back on and do anything we wanted with the phone. Those features were removed from the program because too many concerns were raised about the fact that we had no idea if the person was in a situation were phones were prohibited (getting on a plane, in a hospital, etc...).
PS Just so you know we weren't trying to be total Big Brother. The phones were only supposed to be used while on duty and then left at our facilities on the chargers overnight.
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Cell phones
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Re: Cell phones
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Funny how it doesn't sound so crazy anymore.
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Re: Cell phones
In fact in most cases in urban settings , having the phone lose tower signal would mean intentional blocking and thus indicate something sneaky going on so best time to record!
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Re: Re: Cell phones
It can also vary widely with carrier.
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It sure is nice to have, though.
Also, your prices are *way* off. My phone was $550 (I bought a fairly expensive phone).
I'm currently paying ~$60 (with fees - it's a little less but let's keep it to round numbers) per month for unlimited minutes, unlimited texting, and limited web (which gets me all the web I need unless I decide to stream Pandora or Youtube a lot). I've been paying roughly that much (within $5) of that price since I got the phone a bit over three years ago, so that's a good number to go with for a decent smart phone plan cost.
I also don't have a contract. Never have; there's really no reason to (if you can't buy your phone outright, talk to the phone company about a purchase plan for it; that won't necessarily bind you to a contract for the minutes/text/web plan).
So my phone plus the plan will, over two years, cost $1990 - far less than the $2500 you are quoting for the phone alone. In fact, that means that my average monthly price including the phone cost is $82, if I prorate it over 2 years.
My phone is more than three years old now and functioning quite well, which lowers the average price even more.
Those are accurate numbers - slightly overstated for purposes of easy calculation, but accurate.
As for the price of the basic phone? Well, there really aren't many cheaper plans nowadays. So all you're (probably) saving is the cheaper phone price. That is something, at least when you compare it to a relatively high-end smartphone like the one I have.
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If I were so simple as you . . . I would want to be an Anonymous Coward too.
Get a real life . . . and stop tapping in on someone else. After all isn't that what the subject line is all about: People like you . . .
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True. I rarely actually make calls with my smartphone.
But the rest of the capabilities are so incredibly useful that it's worth having.
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Product Idea
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Re: Product Idea
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Re: Product Idea
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So Test The Theory
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Re: So Test The Theory
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block the phone
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Re: block the phone
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Fridge better for muffling sound, but the microwave oven is a faraday cage. When in doubt, also wrap in aluminum foil.
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Signals
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Turned off cell phones
If the NSA wants to know where I am, that's OK by me. Hope they don't get too bored with my conversations, and travels. Maybe they can enjoy my pictures...
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Wait, people didn't know this already?
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Response to: Cloudsplitter on Jul 24th, 2013 @ 1:51pm
Whom are you fighting? Your own government? Nobody gives a damn about you or me. There are more pressing issues to attend than entertaining the shopkeepers with your cave dwelling lifestyle, obsessing about non existent privacy illusion while crapping in the glass booth. Welcome to America in 2013 reality.
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Re: Response to: Cloudsplitter on Jul 24th, 2013 @ 1:51pm
I'm 90% sure this isn't actually true.
This isn't true, at least not with anything like accuracy. Identifying someone by "voiceprint" is highly inaccurate under the best of circumstances.
This comment confuses me. Do you mean once they've caught you on video, they can identify you again on video? What does that have to do with cell phones?
True, and if they want to do surveillance, then they should be limited to the more intrusive methods. It would reduce the amount of unwarranted surveillance they do by quite a lot.
No, the bastards who have taken over my government.
I see, so your response is "suck it up, buttercup, there's nothing you can do. Just give up and bend over."? I think we can do a lot better than pure defeatism.
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Re: Response to: Cloudsplitter on Jul 24th, 2013 @ 1:51pm
I changed my service provider, and my previous phone wasn't even a smart phone, yet I was bugged, still am. I take the batteries out to prevent or stop the headaches I get from the signals. But I miss a lot of calls...
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Re: Response to: Cloudsplitter on Jul 24th, 2013 @ 1:51pm
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Re: Secret to Going Dark
1. As far as im aware spyware is a program not something physical but purely software, this must attach onto the IMEI of a phone i believe so it knows what its recording, tracking etc. Getting programs to roll IMEI's isnt hard, it can be done automatically or manually.
2. When tracing or tracking a phone, its either jumping on the back of the PHONE which is the IMEI, or its jumping on the SIM card or phone number attached. So if you get a phone which can roll its IMEI and have maybe 10 sim cards and rotate them then it in my view takes care of that 2nd problem.
3. Now another problem is if someone installs something physical on your phone, in this day and age if that happens then ur screwed until you physically remove it, and its kinda your own fault for leaving ya phone lying around people u dont really know. So physically on means only way is physically off.
4. If you have spyware on your phone and you roll the IMEI then the spyware cant find its target anymore, but that doesnt mean more spyware cant be remotely installed thru sms or terrible thing called Bluetooth.
5. Viruses can also attack and damage your phone and open up holes for spyware to get through more easily.
So heres my solution, wether it works or not is another story, but its my opinion and im happy to share it with fellow privacy concerned people:
BEFORE YOU MAKE A CALL OR SMS:
1. Scan your phone with anti spyware program.
2. Then Scan phone with anti virus program
3. Enter in a new IMEI
4. Insert a new SIM card
5. This is important: the person on the other phone must also follow these 4steps.
I also strongly agree with the people who say that going back to NOKIA 5110's or basically old school phones makes the NSA and other MOFO corporations jobs at being up our butts wid torches a whole lot harder.
Before i go i just wanna say, that as a people we are lazy and want things easy, everything easy is digital or mechanical, well one day my belief is the powers gonna go out, and 90% of us are gonna die because we dont know how to survive with Watts or Ohms. The nomads or bushmen will once again be the sole survivors when we well our great grandchildren fuck this planet beyond hope.
Just look at the way the governments are getting us to hand over our lives, its like being robbed and the robber just has to say, well if u give me your purse then u wont have all that extra weight to carry around, and us without thinking we just hand it over.
Look at technology:
1. before u had to buy a bus ticket, now u just swipe a card or a phone and ur on, but guess what that digital card or phone says who ur, where u got on, what time u got on the bus, when u got off etc.
2. We transfer money online, go to atms, everything involves a machine, these machines are screwing us, yeh its easy to use, i love my technology, but to be real cautious when i need to i go old school. face to face meetings. send someone in to buy a PREPAID VISA/MASTERCARD they r a god send, buy a laptop and tape the camera and micropohne or get an IBM thinkpad which doesnt hava camera, register a usb modem in a fake name, same fake name as ya prepaid visa, the computers IP isnt attached to you its attached to the dude that bought it, and he shouldnt remember you, u paid cash bcoz u bought it outta the newspaper, u buy ya internet usb ya mobile all from 2nd hand garage sales or newspaper ads, all cash all untraceable. Trust me the things ive done in the Past ive needed to be damn well anonymous and i was, and never got caught.
IN CONCLUSION ITS ALL OUT THERE PEOPLE, THE OLD AND THE NEW, HEY ENJOY TECHNOLOGY FOR THE BENEFITS THE FUN, THE REALISM, THE ENTERTAINMENT, BUT WHEN U NEED TO GO UNDERCOVER THEN GO OLD SKOOL BROTHER ;-)
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So what's the definition of "Powering Down?"
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Take It Out
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Aug 11th, 2013 @ 4:01pm
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cell phone analysis
http://www.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=3e27e95b60dd4304a56287f3ee0b0f3f
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On when off
Battery which stores ROM does not have enough power to teansmit
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What's the go with that? It never used to do it
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Simple Solution
Duh
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Re: Simple Solution
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NSA spying.
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NSA Spying
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Tracking Cell Phones
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please help
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Re: dumb phones
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NSA tracking cell phones.
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Cell Phone Tracking
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tracking phones
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Lost ipad
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Terrorism is a red herring
I would rather go without than buy a smartphone with a non removable battery. It smacks of environmental waste and decadence and is akin to buying a laptop designed with a maximum user life of no more than 2 years.
The Surveillance State exists to monitor Working Class dissent. That's its main purpose. Terrorism is a red herring.
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Terrorism is a red herring
I would rather go without than buy a smartphone with a non removable battery. It smacks of environmental waste and decadence and is akin to buying a laptop designed with a maximum user life of no more than 2 years.
The Surveillance State exists to monitor Working Class dissent. That's its main purpose. Terrorism is a red herring.
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WTF
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