US Still Can't Figure Out What Snowden Took; What Happened To Those Perfect 'Audits'?
from the total-failure dept
Remember how the NSA's biggest defenders keep insisting that the NSA's perfect "audits" prevent abuse? Here's Keith Alexander insisting that such audits are perfect:"The assumption is our people are just out there wheeling and dealing. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have tremendous oversight over these programmes. We can audit the actions of our people 100%, and we do that," he said.Yet, many months after the initial leaks, it's being reported that the US government still doesn't know what Snowden took:
Addressing the Black Hat convention in Las Vegas, an annual gathering for the information security industry, he gave a personal example: "I have four daughters. Can I go and intercept their emails? No. The technical limitations are in there." Should anyone in the NSA try to circumvent that, in defiance of policy, they would be held accountable, he said: "There is 100% audibility." Only 35 NSA analysts had the authority to query a database of US phone records, he said.
More than two months after documents leaked by former contractor Edward Snowden first began appearing in the news media, the National Security Agency still doesn’t know the full extent of what he took, according to intelligence community sources, and is “overwhelmed” trying to assess the damage.First off, this shows that the claims of 100% auditability are complete crap. If they can't tell what Snowden took so many months later, they don't have very good auditability at all. Furthermore, this raises serious questions about the NSA's data management capabilities. For all the claims that there are no "willful" or "intentional" violations by the NSA of people's privacy, it seems difficult to believe they can know that. Here's a case where they flat out know that someone got access to all sorts of documents, and over many months they still can't figure out what he got. And, yet, they expect us to believe that they can tell with perfect accuracy what their staffers are doing with the data they have access to? Seriously?
Yes, there have been thousands of "accidental" violations that were caught in audits, but it seems highly likely that there are intentional violations that the NSA just doesn't know about. If they can't track what an outside contractor is downloading, how can they even pretend that they have control over their data and information?
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Filed Under: abuses, audits, ed snowden, keith alexander, leaks, nsa, nsa surveillance, violations
Reader Comments
The First Word
“Know what's even scarier?
This basically implies that a hacker could break into the NSA, steal all the data inside and spread it out to whomever they wanted to and the NSA would never know how much was taken.Subscribe: RSS
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I think the Govt has inflicted much more damage towards itself with its reactions to the leaks than any leak could ever have produced.
It's bad to the point people are not worried about their security anymore, they don't fear terrorists anymore. They fear their own Govt.
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Know what's even scarier?
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Re:
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Misunderstanding
All he is saying there is that when we whine about accountability they can hear us perfectly, not that they really give a shit about it.
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Either that or they want them for themselves; no need to spy on the NSA if you can just grab their internal documents from a third party...
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Audits
/sarc
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multi-edged swords
However, that is a double, or even, triple edged sword. Once Snowden properly secures the NSA from breaches, assuming he's a good guy, whoever takes over will have that better security & the public can know less when a leak is necessary for the greater good.
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Re: Know what's even scarier?
Their data was insecure, a breach was bound to happen, and they wouldn't treat Snowden as an enemy if they had any idea what sort of damage a real enemy can do.
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Just because they can...
Just because they have the ability to audit, doesn't mean they actually use it 100% of the time (in fact, from what I'm reading, it seems they rarely use it at all).
And that's the problem, they (our Government officials in support of this NSA stuff) keep saying what they are capable of doing, instead of saying what they are actually doing... or coming clean with the public.
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Another Possibility
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Re: Just because they can...
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Re: Re: Know what's even scarier?
I don't think they're that lucky. I strongly suspect that if Snowden, a contractor and essentially an intelligence amateur, got his hands on all that, that the professionals working for other governments have long since availed themselves of far more. The only difference is that they are unlikely to start leaking it to the press.
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Re: Re: Know what's even scarier?
The government is lucky that [the only data leak to surface so far] was by someone with Snowden's integrity.
Fixed.
I suspect the ones with more nefarious purposes (e.g. sending commercial intel to China) are still in place continuing their work.
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Re: Just because they can...
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Snowden's releases have been very strategic, building up over time and exposing more abuse. We haven't seen the end of it, and we certainly have not seen the peak of it.
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Blind leading the Blind
I'm honestly worried about Our data and theirs!.. But what would the funniest thing..
If Snowden didn't take anything but memorized everything.. With no checks or balances anywhere to be found everyone's left clueless and Snowden made a very clear point "Once you see something, you can't unsee it" So even with total security.. face the facts and realize there's none to be had,
Control is a figment of our imagination.. you'd think an agency such as the NSA would understand that. And realize this needle stack is causing them and our officials to look like the Terrorists to many Americans and Others around the World
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Hubris exemplified
They can barely even justify their own existence.
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So he'll be reading his enemies emails, spying on political opponents, even listening on his allies phone calls to check if they've gone off message, and all the creepy things out of control Generals do. None of that will be logged, because whether its logged is simply his decision, under his control.
I bet he has some serious leverage over UK and NZ politicians.
Like Firefox and its 'in Private' browsing mode, that doesn't log anything, Alexander will have his own InPrivate search mode.
So until the constitutional protections are restored, even Obama is the General's bitch.
There is however, one group of people that can catch him and can prove what he's done. The 90% sysadmins that can get to the low level database logs.
TOR still works despite the recent NSA attacks. Any of you have a conscience?
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[Begin rant]
They didn't want the audits. They just wanted the power. That's it. All he wanted was to change public perception around these leaks. The enemy of the state is the people itself, and Obama along with these high ranking officials don't want to be answerable to the public.
It reminds me of the movie "Cool Hand Luke". Hell, let's update that to Major Payne. You have a Nasty Drill Seargeant man in charge aiming to destroy the morale of kids or the prisoners in his care and after putting the people through hell what does he say? "What we have here is a failure to communicate!"
Yeah, that's a great motto for those in charge...
Release documents piecemeal until a new leak exposes more, betraying the role of our Constitution, and giving more power to corporate interests has basically caused us to see the problems of our democracy as it stands now.
The bureacracy hs the state, the spiritual essence of society, in its possession, as its private property The general spirit of the bureacracy is the secret, the mystery preserved within itself by the hierarchy and against the outside world by being a closed corporation. Avowed political spirit, as also political mindedness, therfore appears to the bureacracy as treason against its mystery. hence, authority is the basis of its knowledge, and the deification of authority is its conviction
What Snowden and Manning have done is betray this cabal and given secrets to the enemy of the state: The public.
The mergeance of corporate state with Allen Booz and the NSA has given us a lot of secrecy and we have the results.
Growing inequality...
State propaganda...
Execution of Americans for doing nothing more than living their lives with their behaviors being more and more criminalized as we speak.
We seriously need a change in our lives because THIS is truly atrocious for being able to go on for so long.
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Devil's Advocate.
Or... They're all a bunch of lying dirtbags.
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It's when you think you are 100% impervious to abuse/hacking/etc that you are most vulnerable...
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Re: Devil's Advocate.
I'd say this is 100% accurate.
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And to think the NSA spying isn't even the whole picture
Once Obamacare comes online, and the IRS (who is charged with enforcing Obamacare) has access to all our medical records, we will all be well and thoroughly screwed. Imagine the NSA and IRS, the two most hated agencies in the govt, knowing basically everything about you. Scary stuff indeed.
As for the NSA part of it, just one more reason (maybe the biggest one) that Obama has to go. Yes it started under Bush, but Obama doubled down on all of Bush's failed policies and basically became Bush on steroids.
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NSA and their audits
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Re: NSA and their audits
It's one thing to lie, but it's another altogether to lie when you know that the other person has solid evidence that you're lying, which strongly suggests that they really do have no idea what Snowden has.
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Doesn't mean it's not unconstitutional
As long as they collect they are violating the constitution, and that is breaking the law.
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Re: And to think the NSA spying isn't even the whole picture
Obamacare does not give the IRS access to all our medical records, nor does the IRS need to have such access to do what it's tasked with. The IRS' involvement is basic and simple: you provide them with proof of insurance (assuming you're required to have it), or they assess a surcharge. That's it.
I don't have to imagine that, because that's the way it's been for years already.
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Actually, that statement (like I tried to point out with my subtle sarcasm above) means that you can hear perfectly.
I think it's a typo in the original Atlantic article and should read "auditability".
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Streisand Effect as applied to secret government agencies!
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Still the point is valid. When you think you are bulletproof, all of a sudden someone find something bigger and better. The line by Inspector Gordon talking to Batman about this new guy the "Joker" at the end of Batman Begins comes to mind....
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This answers the why of David Miranda's detaining in the UK. It was hoped to gain access to the info he was carrying to identify the next set of leaks so that they wouldn't look so clueless when the next leaks come out.
It's about as damning as it gets for the US's claim they knew but didn't request his incarceration. Again fancy footsteps around the real truth. They wanted his info, not his imprisonment and doing it before customs means no national laws to deal with.
The US and it's spy agency is up to it's eyeballs in the involvement despite the claims.
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Look out behind you!
If they don't know what our friend Snowden took, how are they going to keep the REAL bad guys out of the pile? Wanna bet they get raided constantly, without knowing it? Them furrin hackers are pretty smart, ya know. I bet they get in all the time and those cross-eyed idiots in DC haven't a clue.
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Can we afford this?
And don't raise the specter of "terrorism". That's pure BS and we all know it. 9/11 was a masterfully orchestrated fluke that probably won't happen again. If it does, are the NSA spooks trying to convince us they will catch on BEFORE it happens? Not bloody likely. They can't even tie their own shoe laces.
In the mean time this "terrorist" boogyman has the general public so flustered and confused and paranoid that, in effect, the bad guys have already won. This is NOT the America that won WWII and vanquished both the Germans and the Japanese. We couldn't do that now if our lives depended on it, and they just might.
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Re: Look out behind you!
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Exaclty right
The fact that this turns out not to be true is a problem , to say the least. The NSA needs to get straight on this point. They are putting in jeopardy the systems that they know only too well have the capacity to prevent a civilization destroying biological attack or the successful release of an engineered virus .
They need to focus on what their conduct has been- with respect to punishing dissenters, hiding from Congress, deceiving the public, covering up, and especially malignantly and gratuitously going after people like Binney in such a way that Snowden happens in the first place.
They act as if things are happening to them and they're pissed instead of acting like they know the world they live in, what might happen and the best way to react should it happen.
Binney happened and the way you handled it lead directly to Snowden.
Snowden happened and the way you're handling it is now jeopardizing everything.
The attitude of the NSA, their own idea of their relationship to the nation appears to be autocratic and imperial. This appears to be because they consider their mission to be so critical to the nation that the basics of it it shouldn't be questioned or reviewed or even meaningful dissented from, even internally.
It's not small irony that this is exactly what happened to the HAL 9000 computer in the movie 2001. The computer was unable to cope with the gravity of the knowledge it had and concomitant need for secrecy and that stopped it from conferring with outsiders and in the end seeing them only as threats to its "mission".
There is more than a little of that going on here.
Because the fact is, the type of threats the nation faces are totally sui generis and may require on the part of everyone some rethinking about aspects of governance, privacy, transparency and the consent of the governed. These are things that go to the foundations of how we are constituted as a nation and a people.
I do blame the NSA now. For their apparent frat boy culture that, for instance, permitted passing around tapes of phone sex between our servicemen and women and their loved ones back home. For their ham-handed, low IQ and autocratic response to a true patriot like Binney. For their failure to understand that the nation needs to be brought current on the nature of the threats we face and what impact and sacrifices that may have on and require of civil society.
For being caught entirely flatfooted by Snowden (you really never considered what to do if this happens? Really? Really????) and trying to lie their way out of it instead of using it as a teaching moment about why, what and when they do what they do.
The enemy gets a vote. You , NSA and the administrations, should know this better than anyone. The model you have of keeping the American public and Congress in the dark as much as possible, not because doing so keeps necessary secrets but because you're afraid of the culture shock Americans would experience if they knew, generally speaking, what you know, feared what you feared, worried about what you worry about, has got to go.
We need to all get on the same page so we can move forward as a nation, as a people unified in part by a shared understanding of the world and the real threats in it, not one that is being torn apart by paranoid ideas that their government is moving towards some totalitarian state.
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Re:
But y'know what? They'd at least be able to stop telling lies that are revealed as lies the very next week.
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Re: Re: Re:
Yes it is still a valid point.
I used to have a saying back when I used to write code in a corporate setting:
"As soon as you make something idiot-proof, someone makes a better idiot."
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Re: And to think the NSA spying isn't even the whole picture
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Re: Know what's even scarier?
Anyone with insider access from afar can do the same thing.
How easy it may or may not be for a hacker to disguise him/herself as an insider or hijack a session is a different question altogether.
[So I don't think it implies that a hacker can break in nor that a bunch of data can be touched without anyone knowing. But, independently, there appears to be a significant chance lots of people might have access to lots of data since many insiders could have been sloppy (or "sloppy") in the past. And we are not talking about Secret or any other designation besides Classified, I don't think.]
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That said, if you *really* want, you can go live in a land where terrorists have a greater reach than government.
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Re: Re: Re: Know what's even scarier?
Other governments can know more through espionage (or putting a gun to "Snowden"'s head or watching him very closely) than perhaps through hacking.
Finally, while I know the NSA helped build the SE Linux infrastructure, you still have to use it and use it wisely (ie, by giving as little access as possible to anyone who shouldn't have access). I just read that the NSA had fallen asleep at the wheel keeping data sufficiently compartmentalized. Snowden had access to things he didn't need to have access to, I'm guessing.
Trust has to exist to some extent. The idea is that people who violate that trust will have the weight of the US gov to deal with later if they are caught.
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Re: Hubris exemplified
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Know what's even scarier?
100% auditability was used several times. It did not refer to system administration.
It was used in the context of NetFlow. It was used in the context of 2 query programs. The speech was about those 2 programs, a meta data program and prism.
For example, a little over 20 minutes into his speech [27:15 in the vid I saw]: "So on this program [Prism/FAA 702 authority], 100% auditability on every query that we make, and that is overseen by our inspector general, our general counsel."
Or the example, in the context of NetFlow [15:30]: "you know that we can audit the actions of our people. 100% in this case."
Even the quote Mike provided qualifies the 100% auditability with "these programmes," and there were no other programs mentioned or detailed in the speech (at least to any degree, iirc).
So, there is *no claim* at all iirc that every command taken by a sys admin is audited. Every instance I remember refers to NetFlow or to either of the 2 query programs (meta-data and Prism).
I am sure the NSA has a lot more auditing, but the 100% was used in a very limited scope.
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still not asking the right questions
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US Still Can't Figure Out What Snowden Took
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Re: Know what's even scarier?
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un
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Re:
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