Insanity: PayPal Freezes Mailpile's Account, Demands Excessive Info To Get Access
from the why-we-need-paypal-alternatives dept
See update at the bottomA few weeks ago, we wrote about Mailpile, a new attempt to create a webmail client that is built with both security and usability in mind -- think Gmail/Outlook-type interface, but which you can control and with built in security. The project looks awesome and is greatly needed these days, as we learn more and more about government intrusions into hosted webmail accounts. Their IndieGoGo campaign has been a huge success, going past their $100,000 target, and is currently at around $137,000, which will allow the three person team to focus on it full time.
Except... as the team announced this morning, PayPal, for reasons known only to PayPal, has decided to freeze their funds and won't let Mailpile access the money that people donated:
Saturday August 31st I woke to two emails from PayPal. The first notified me they had cancelled the debit card associated with my sole proprietor business account, the second was informing me they placed a block on my account barring me from withdrawing or sending any money out of my PayPal account.Assuming this would get sorted out after a little explaining/security check, the team has been trying to get PayPal to unfreeze the account, with no luck. PayPal is demanding an insane level of detail into Mailpile's personal finances and business:
Afer 4 phone calls, the last of which I spoke to a supervisor, the understanding I have come to is, unless Mailpile provides PayPal with a detailed budgetary breakdown of how we plan to use the donations from our crowd funding campaign they will not release the block on my account for 1 year until we have shipped a 1.0 version of our product. A final email communication from PayPal reaffirmed us of their stance by stating:Even worse, it seems that the folks at PayPal recognize that it holds power over Mailpile, and seems almost to be lording that power over them:"Please provide an itemized budget and your development goal dates for your project"This puts us in an incredibly uncomfortable position as we do not feel that it's remotely in their jurisdiction to ask for a detailed budget of our business, any more than it is within our right to ask for theirs.
Communications with PayPal have implied that they would use any excuse available to them to delay delivering as much of our cash as possible for as long as possible. Asking us to give them justification for such behavior is obviously not in our best interests. PayPal's position particularly ridiculous when contrasted with IndieGoGo's policy of transferring all funds to successful campaigns within 15 days of their conclusion. If IndieGoGo can do it, so can PayPal.This isn't all of the money raised -- it's about $45,000 of the $137,000, but it's still a huge pain. Mailpile has now had the Software Freedom Law Center look into their legal options for obtaining the money that people donated to the project.
Yes, PayPal has a long history of similar things, but that doesn't make it okay.
Update: And... of course, the inevitable backtrack. After all the publicity. From PayPal:
We have reached out to MailPile and the limitation has been lifted. Supporting crowd funding campaigns is an exciting new part of our business.We are working closely with industry-leaders like IndieGoGo and adapting our processes and policies to better serve the innovative companies that are relying on PayPal and crowd funding campaigns to grow their businesses. We never want to get in the way of innovation, but as a global payments company we must ensure the payments flowing through our system around the world are in compliance with laws and regulations. We understand that the way in which we are complying to these rules can be frustrating in some cases and we've made significant changes in North America to adapt to the unique needs of crowd funding campaigns. We are currently working to roll these improvements out around the world.
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Filed Under: email, frozen account, paypal, secure email
Companies: mailpile, paypal
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The best part was when the guy on the phone told me he didn't use paypal, had dealt with too many paypal horror stories, and offered to close my account and make a new one that paypal didn't know about for me.
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Response to: BentFranklin on Sep 5th, 2013 @ 9:13am
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Invoke the TOS
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And people wonder why BTC is popular
There's no "bank", no "regulations", no "gatekeepers" preventing money from exchanging hands.
I still find it somewhat ironic that organizations like Paypal punish their customers to this extent, publicly. As if they are just taunting people to see if they'll stop using the service.
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Powertrip much?
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Re: Powertrip much?
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Re: Re: Powertrip much?
At this point, PayPal is de facto nationalized.
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Re: Re: Powertrip much?
Here's why: what Mailpile is doing won't work. Source: close examination of their design by someone who's been running mail servers since before most of you were born.
I know this. I'm sure the NSA et.al. know this. I'm not sure Mailpile knows it, or if they do, if they'll admit it. But there are fundamental design flaws in Mailpile: that is, things that aren't mere coding errors and thus can't be fixed by debugging code. They're baked-in.
Yes, I've informed Mailpile. No response yet.
Oh, incidentally: like I said, I know this, and I'm sure the NSA and friends know this. I'm also sure The Bad Guys know this and can't wait for Mailpile to go live so that they can exploit it.
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Re: Re: Re: Powertrip much?
You're from the Redundant Department of Redundancy, right?
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Re: Re: Re: Powertrip much?
I know your point. And Agree mostly..
There are Vulnerabilities IN hardware and software..Its even been reported here.
There are Problems with making PASSWORDS that cant be cracked..
There is a BIG ONE, on the Client side, and someone getting access to the person computer.
IF'
They made an HARDWARE EMAIL BOX(a $50 custom Linux, encrypted CLIENT..
Then, USed some ODDBALL language...And Customized it abit..
Then RUN HARDWARE programming to control Any Errors/backdoors to enter the system BEFORE logging into the Email..THEN the software signs into the Email(thats 2 passwords)
THEN GIVE DEDICATED PASSWORDS of name and passwords, to the persons Client..The USER dont even know them..
Then REQUIRE the USER to use a PASSWORD to even access the unit..AND IF its MISSED more then 3-5 times...ITS ERASED and the account is LOCKED.
REAL PAIN system to use..
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If a bank...
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Re: If a bank...
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I generally use them for purchases like music and ebooks(bandcamp and smashwords respectively), and while I haven't noticed any problems to date, if other people are having such trouble with them, I'd prefer to find alternatives if possible before I end up with my own 'paypal nightmare story'.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_on-line_payment_service_providers
And there are quite a few more (with some discussion) here:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111019/11202916417/paypal-freezes-diasporas-account.shtml
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Regardless, though, you should use a prepaid debit card, loaded with just enough cash to make the payment you need, to do any online purchasing. That way, the most you could lose is whatever the balance on the card is.
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In other words, they play by their own rules. I found this out the hard way when someone tried to scam me on eBay. I ended up getting my money back, but I'll never use eBay or Paypal again.
BTW, Ebay owns Paypal. Literally.
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Using Paypal is like using Internet Explorer
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I AM PAYPAL TERRIFIED
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Well what do you know, something that could actually shut down the e-mail gathering capability of the NSA, now without funding ... it makes one wonder
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Don't Use Paypall
There's no company operating as an Internet business that is more deserving of being shut down.
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TinFoil
Think ebay/paypal will let me sell them?
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Paypal...
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Easy fix
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Still have an account, but
I never use Paypal to accept payments. I only use it to send payments which charges my credit card. I stopped using eBay years ago after being burned on some auctions.
Lost a client who was a Paypal engineer when he offered to pay me through Paypal. He didn't like what I had to say about their service and wanted a check or cash. That's just fine with me.
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Re: Still have an account, but
uh...and how does your payee get the the money, if not through Paypal?
YOU won't use Paypal to receive funds but it's OK for the other guy. nice.
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This. This. A thousand times this.
I've always been wary of using that thing, and try to avoid using it if at all possible for obvious reasons.
PayPal is a bank in everything but name. They know it, we (the internet) knows it, so why the hell haven't the regulators realized it and done something about this bull yet? [oh wait, they're regulators. Inefficiency tends to be their M.O. these days.]
Will PayPal ever have to pay the piper for its outrageous shenanigans?
As the Zen Master says, "We'll see."
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Paypal for business is terrible
It sure appeared to me that they set things up to get that first month's payment out of everyone without any sort of verification, but the moment you actually USE the account they would do an actual review. I gave them an overview of the business model from the beginning, but they clearly didn't look at it until I did the test transaction.
To make it even better, they told me the only way to close the account was to unlock it. To unlock it, I would have to change my business model and then they'd reconsider.
Paypal is great for paying people on eBay. Beyond that, stay away.
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Re: Paypal for business is terrible
No. No, no, no and no. The only thing paypal is great for is a target. If a seller on ebay has been coerced/forced to accept only paypal then you shouldn't be buying. Until the seller learns that they have other options that, most probably, doesn't provide both ebay & paypal with a skim then they should be made to suffer their losses.
PayPal are cunts, plain and simple. Fuck ebay & paypal and the horses they road in on. Actually, save the horses.
They need to be bank or they need to die.
Just turn away. DO IT! Or I'll kick your cat.
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It's possible to do a 'charge back' through your bank with a Credit Card, and force PayPal to return your money. There is no way to get your money back from PayPal if your transaction goes through as a Debit Card!
PayPal defaults all transactions as Debit Card, transactions. You have to look really hard during the PayPal checkout process, to find a blue URL/Hypertext link which will allow you to switch the transaction from a Debit Card, over to a Credit Card.
I highly recommend you do not use PayPal though! It's like playing with fire. Eventually you're going to get burned. Probably sooner than later, as MailPile just found out.
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I am confused.
No, I understand how you buy things through them, but if you are accepting payment as a business, how does that work?
Whose money is it that they are holding?
People giving money sure as hell aren't giving it to PayPal to dole out as they see fit - how would this be even remotely legal?
Also, what is their reasoning for even considering the business model of it's customers? Are they going to trot out the 'protect against money laundering' crap, as if there isn't a paper trail a mile long with this stuff?
I have tons of questions, and every comment is just saying, 'paypal sucks' and 'don't use paypal' Good advice, I'm sure, but what the hell is going on?
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Updated...
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Hopefully MailPile learns their lesson after seeing ScamPal's true face.
Never forget that ScamPal is a 'Currency Broker', with their own set of rules. They're not regulated like a bank or credit card company. You are 100% at ScamPal's mercy. They can freeze your funds for as long as they want too.
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It is well known that the NSA has major headaches with encrypted services. It wasn't long ago two email services shut down over the threat or potential threat of jail time because they wouldn't allow back doors installed. In the case of Lavabit, they went as far as saying that shutting down the business might be tantamount to jail time. That tells you the real target was most likely Snowden's communications. They wanted access for early warning and closing down the business meant he's not using it anymore.
This demonstrates that encryption is a headache they don't want to go through. So I would suspect given this, the US government has put pressure on PayPal to halt, slow down, or impede payment for a method to possibly halt the development or to give enough time to figure a way in.
Paypal has demonstrated before it is complicit with these types of unofficial demands.
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If you are transferring large amounts of money or basing your business on it YOU HAVE ONLY YOURSELF TO BLAME.
Given their history and ridiculous customer support you are seriously tasking wolves with guarding the hen houses while paying them more money (seriously, their rates aren't even competitive) than someone who is not an asshole wolf that's just going to eat all of your hens... maybe this metaphor is a bit stretched and contorted at this point.
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So, it sounds like...
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HOLD IT
(dont get me wrong, I TRY NOT to use paypal)
PAYPAL is a middle man with a FAIR TRADE initiative..
REMEMBER who they are..EBAY/PAYPAL..
They want to see the PRODUCT is being delivered.
They want to see the BASIC BUSINESS DATA, for a product.
How many of these PRE-START UPS, have gone rogue and ran off with the money, or FAILED, AFTER THE FACT??
Think about a product..
HOw many of these groups have gotten millions of dollars for a product/project?(this is PROFIT)
THEN Brought a product to the market and had a HIGH price on it?(MORE PROFIT)
Dont tell me this is 2 different things..
Its the designation PARMA CORPS give, when they charge people $100+ per pill, AFTEr its been developed.. That they have to PAY the development costs AFTER the fact..
If yo figure that there are 3 people working on this, and EACh will get $30k EACH for a years work...Thats about $90k of the money. Lets add some hardware like a SERVER SETUP...Add $10,000 for a BASIC server..WHICH IS $100K TOTAL.. IF THEY DO THEIR tAXES PROPERLY THEY GET TO KEEP mopst OF THE DEDICATED WAGES.
paypal WANTS THE cOMPANY INFO..
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Re: HOLD IT
Pledgers A through Z+ authorized paypal to take money from their credit/debit/bank and give it to mailpile. Not vet mailpile, not do a cost/benefit analysis, just make the transaction (for which PP takes a percentage/fee somewhere on the back end I am sure)
Doing anything else that is exceeding the requirements of law enforcement in the slightest, is wrong.
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Re: Re: HOLD IT
I do.
I watched it happen..
An EQUAL exchange of Product/service for MONEY..and BOTH parties must be satisfied..PERIOD.
And thats what gets PEOPLE PISSED, as 1 person can NOT have a good day, complains and the associated OTHER PERSON gets SHUT DOWN.
Odds are you havent read SOME of the nightmare stories that Paypal has gone thru.
And HOW SOME evil people have TRIED to take advantage.. Paypal solved that..
You cant stop the GOODS, but you can CONTROL the payment.
If the goods dont MATCh then payment is not made, or is STOPPED(thats the 30day coverage, to complain)..
BUT, also that GOODS must be returned..OTHER wise your money WONT be returned EITHER.
Consider that when you DEAL with Paypal..
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Stop using - easy to say
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Re: Stop using - easy to say
There is always another payment option or vendor to do business with on the internet. I think I've only ever not proceeded with a purchase once because the vendor only accepted PayPal, but I either made the purchase elsewhere or bought it later after the vendor added some real payment options to their site.
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I'ma going clay pigeon shooting...
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paypal
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