NSA May Not Be Collecting Your Location Data From Telco Dragnet... Because It Gets It From Your GPS

from the under-this-program dept

Mon, Sep 30th 2013 8:44am — Mike Masnick

As we noted last week, Senator Ron Wyden has been repeatedly asking the intelligence community about whether or not they're tracking the location on any Americans, and the intelligence community has steadfastly avoided giving a straight answer (as they do). Specifically, he was asking about whether or not the NSA has in the past, or has plans to, get location data on Americans in bulk. The NSA's Keith Alexander did his "under this program" two step, in which he insists that they are not doing so under this program and at this time. That leaves open other programs and at other times.

Earlier today, we discussed the NYT's coverage of how the NSA has set up its own shadow social network, including information from Americans (none of which involves a warrant). In that piece, they describe how location info is part of what's included:

A 2009 PowerPoint presentation provided more examples of data sources available in the “enrichment” process, including location-based services like GPS and TomTom, online social networks, billing records and bank codes for transactions in the United States and overseas.

At a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing on Thursday, General Alexander was asked if the agency ever collected or planned to collect bulk records about Americans’ locations based on cellphone tower data. He replied that it was not doing so as part of the call log program authorized by the Patriot Act, but said a fuller response would be classified.

So, apparently they are getting GPS data. And if they were getting it from TomTom and other GPS services, then you have to imagine that they might now also include GPS data from the phones that so many of us carry around today. GPS data is even more accurate than cell-site data. And, of course, the data in "this program" appears to mostly come via Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act. The program that Keith Alexander was referring to in his remarks was the dragnet collection of business records under Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act. So, it's not difficult to see how Alexander might be technically "accurate" with the "not this program" dance, even as lots of Americans' location data is being sucked up via GPS (and potentially cell-site locations) under 702...

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Filed Under: cell-site data, gps, location info, nsa, nsa surveillance, surveillance

35 Comments

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silverscarcat (profile), 30 Sep 2013 @ 6:59am

So, if I leave my cell phone at home and don't use GPS in my car...

They can't live track me when I'm out of the house other than when I use my debit card to pay off my bills?
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Ninja (profile), 30 Sep 2013 @ 7:31am

How to have fun with NSA
1- buy several devices fully registered with your name, preferably with your credit card to make sure the "dots" are connected
2- discuss terrorism plots on places terrorists would never do it such as Gmail, Skype and Facebook and the likes but NSA does monitor for useless data (use supposedly private methods so your neighbor won't call the cops)
3- Leave your gadgets with gps and other traceable stuff (such as credit cards) in different places. Preferably scattered throughout the world (bonus point for unspeakable countries)
4- Have people use those gadgets regularly
5- laugh as you imagine the NSA agents tilting their heads puzzled on how you can teleport from one country to another
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Skeptical Cynic (profile), 30 Sep 2013 @ 8:43am

Re:
Well maybe...But there are other ways of tracking you. OnStar? Have we heard a word from the Government bailed out company GM about what they do or do not provide to the government about tracking info? The NSA might be all up in their DBs finding data.

Don't forget traffic cams, or highway traffic cams, or the billion other cameras that are tracking your movements that the NSA has found some way to tap in to.

1984 was a fantasy. The reality is a bit more detailed.
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Vidiot (profile), 30 Sep 2013 @ 8:58am

Re: How to have fun with NSA
1a - Change your name to "Mohammad" or "Abdul" on half of them.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Sep 2013 @ 8:59am

GPS is a passive technology. The only way the feds could get your GPS location is if you share it with a third party. The mere existence of GPS chips in mobile devices doesn't mean they are all actively transmitting their location.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Sep 2013 @ 9:06am

Re:
I would expect that a lot of GPS using software, especially navigation software, especially that on cell phones, would pretty regularly send your current location in order to request the appropriate maps, weather data, etc.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Sep 2013 @ 9:08am

Re: How to have fun with NSA
Remember Watson, the AI that beat those champions at jeopardy? You think that was merely a toy?

Those haystacks aren't so big when you have a computer running through them with a flame-thrower.

Consider that possibility.
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K`Tetch, 30 Sep 2013 @ 9:10am

a handy thing I found on my wife's phone. On the samsung S3, under the back cover you will see 10 little screws. If they're not 100% tight, the GPS doesn't work. So, while most people tighten them up to get their GPS to work, you can loosen them to stop it working.

I don't know why exactly this happens (I'm not risking my wife's wrath) but there's something for people to try.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Sep 2013 @ 9:12am

Even if you have something like Google Location Services turned off I wonder if your location could still be queried by something like the E911 service.
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Jaime Frontero, 30 Sep 2013 @ 9:36am

Re: silverscarcat @#1
Not really. Start here:

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/pubs/vdstits2007/index.cfm

It gets *very* involved. If you spend three or four hours using creative keywords, you'll be shocked at what's on the table.

The fact is, that all new cars have some kind of black box in them. Most have wireless connectivity, other than GPS. Soon - very soon - ALL new cars will have wireless DOT/NSA-readable devices, by law.

And really, all I'll be buying in the future is cool used cars - older sports cars, and so on. It's actually cheaper to buy a used car and fix it to the max than it is to buy a new one, if you're careful.
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A Dan (profile), 30 Sep 2013 @ 10:04am

Re: Re:
My first thought was OnStar as well. I would bet they have all of the data from it.
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K`Tetch, 30 Sep 2013 @ 10:08am

Re:
Yes.
I just tested it with my droid incredible running 2.3.

turned off location services, went to the android device manager (https://www.google.com/android/devicemanager), 10 seconds, and it had my position almost exactly on the map (within 3m)

I even saw the gps icon flash for a moment (and theres no geotagging on my networking gear and my ip resolves to 25 miles away. It has no cell service. The only way to have got the location is via GPS.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Sep 2013 @ 10:09am

Since the NSA is not openly denying it and Senator Wyden is asking specifically this question in public he already knows the answer and NSA has another it doesn't want to own up to.

This is the exact same method that was used to question about bulk data retention on emails by US Citizens.

It's plain from the repeat, the answer is yes, they do.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Sep 2013 @ 10:09am

Re:
That or turn off the GPS Receiver.
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Vidiot (profile), 30 Sep 2013 @ 10:10am

Re: Re:
And RFID toll tags like EasyPass. And plate scanners! Huge, and widely deployed...just sittin' by the side of the road, scannin' license plates.
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K`Tetch, 30 Sep 2013 @ 10:32am

Re: Re:
even if you 'turn it off' in the phone, it's still going to turn on at times. See my post below.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Sep 2013 @ 11:11am

Re: Re: Re:
Time for you to Root your phone and replace the Carrier OS.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Sep 2013 @ 11:20am

Re: Re:
My Samsung (with GPS Off) comes up Location unavailable after a reset (Wiping its memory of where it was)
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Sep 2013 @ 11:28am

wait wait wait.. are you suggesting that they are collecting this GPS data from the GPS satellites themselves?

because that is not how GPS works at all. small devices such as cell phones and car-nav, do not have the power to send a signal to a satellite in orbit. they can only read the signals sent by those satellites.
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Brazilian Guy, 30 Sep 2013 @ 11:38am

Re: How to have fun with NSA
6- End up dead or in jail when they give up on logic and decide to go after you. The good news is that at least there will be medical assistence in Guantanamo.
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Brazilian Guy, 30 Sep 2013 @ 11:53am

Re:
No, but once the cell-phone receives its own position, it may send the data to a third party service by default.

Also, there are other GPS alike systems around: the European Galileo and the Chinese Beidou. Brazil has a partnership with the chinese in the later project.
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John Fenderson (profile), 30 Sep 2013 @ 12:27pm

Re:
You'll have to avoid license plate readers, too. And avoid using supermarket affinity cards. And avoid using pay phones. Etc.

Basically, you'll have to avoid leaving any electronic footprint at all.
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John Fenderson (profile), 30 Sep 2013 @ 12:30pm

Re: Re: silverscarcat @#1
Fortunately, it will be relatively easy to prevent the black boxes/gps boxes form being able to send/receive the radio signals for the foreseeable future. Go ahead and buy the new car, then immediately physically disable the OnStar and the GPD/Cell connection.
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steve, 30 Sep 2013 @ 12:59pm

Re:
Do you have onstar?
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Mike Masnick (profile), 30 Sep 2013 @ 1:15pm

Re:
wait wait wait.. are you suggesting that they are collecting this GPS data from the GPS satellites themselves?

No. Straight GPS is about receiving info, not transmitting, but it specifically says that they're getting info from various GPS *services* which could include transmission capabilities, especially when it comes to mobile phones... Yes, those go over the data channel, but the location provider has the info.
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Sheogorath (profile), 30 Sep 2013 @ 3:55pm

Ah, I understand
NSA May Not Be Collecting Your Location Data From Telco Dragnet... Because It Gets It From Your GPS
Explains why they never came for me when I made a comment here I knew they wouldn't like. Not only is my GPS permanently switched off, but so is data roaming, making triangulation difficult (if not impossible).
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John Fenderson (profile), 30 Sep 2013 @ 4:13pm

Re: Ah, I understand
Your location can be triangulated from cell phone towers if your cell phone is on, regardless of data roaming, gps, or even whether or not you have a smart phone.

In fact, there is a legal requirement for cell phone companies to be able to do this for E911 purposes.
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Anonymous, 30 Sep 2013 @ 4:15pm

I'm glad I don't have any of that crap.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Sep 2013 @ 8:35pm

I knew it
So *this* is why my phone always runs out of battery...
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maxcast, 30 Sep 2013 @ 8:35pm

Re:
Sure they can. You should look up 'trapwire'.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Sep 2013 @ 11:44pm

Re:
Yes and no. TomTom has devices which actually use the cell network to get better traffic coverage. They call it HD traffic and use 'live' services. So obviously they have to connect to a provider to get the info.
The devices with the regular traffic information are passive devices, and they use RDS services from regular FM radio to obtain their traffic updates.
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Pacoh Lohlo, 1 Oct 2013 @ 3:44am

5 years ago, an iPhone with no service still displayed location
On a road trip, the "blue dot" was there and moving as we drove. Even though there was no "map", I got the feeling that any agency involved in "public safety" could view this data. From Forest Rangers to the Feds, they have their own map view of anyone's meta location data - whether the phone is subscribed to a network or not. I sure feel a lot safer than I did back in pre-Y2k!
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John Fenderson (profile), 1 Oct 2013 @ 9:24am

Re: 5 years ago, an iPhone with no service still displayed location
It's a little more nuanced that. That the iPhone can still obtain GPS data without having cell service is normal and expected -- GPS is a one-way thing, and all your phone is doing is reading the signals that the GPS satellites are transmitting. It does not need to communicate with anyone else to do this (and it isn't sending those GPS coordinate to anyone else unless you have service).

However, any cell phone -- smart or not -- connects to the cell towers even if there is no active service. This is a good thing -- you can use any cell phone, even ones without service, to make 911 calls. The flip side is that the cell phone is talking with cell towers, and so your location can be deduced through triangulation from the towers. This has nothing whatsoever to do with GPS.
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Dr. Dolittle, 1 Oct 2013 @ 3:29pm

Re:
Think again since the late 80's the government has put chips in automobiles to track you through GPS. Do some research on how crooked governments are 90% of everything they say or do is a lie. Tell a lie enough times people tend to believe it.
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Sheogorath (profile), 4 Oct 2013 @ 2:12pm

Re: Re: Ah, I understand
Yes, but without the data roaming, the authorities can't just send me a package and track where it's going, they have to present my network provider with a valid warrant, thus increasing the level of difficulty in tracking me.
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