Privacy Groups Want The Government To Investigate Google Over The NSA's Hacking

from the really-now? dept

Thu, Nov 14th 2013 12:57pm — Mike Masnick

The Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) has this unfortunate habit of making absolutely insane arguments that really destroy its credibility elsewhere. At times it does good work in responding to egregious violations of privacy, but at times it just makes itself look like a total kook organization -- such as when it sued the FTC for not investigating Google over EPIC's ridiculously bizarre claims of privacy violations just because Google changed its privacy policy. EPIC is never one to let go, and its latest self-defeating strategy is to demand the FTC investigate Google and Yahoo... for letting the NSA hack their data centers.

As was widely discussed last month, the NSA had found a backdoor way to effectively hack into the networks that connect Google and Yahoo's data centers, allowing the NSA to pull down all sorts of data, without either company knowing about it. It seems quite reasonable to go after the NSA and the US government about this, but in the twisted mind of EPIC, this is a violation of Google's privacy policy. I'm not joking. EPIC, along with a number of other privacy groups (some of whom focus nearly their entire efforts on trying to make Google less useful) have sent a ridiculous letter to the FTC. It points out that the FTC has previously ordered these companies to "adopt comprehensive privacy programs," and then argues that those privacy programs have been violated because of the NSA hacks.

These companies have represented that user data is only disclosed to law enforcement subject to a lawful process. But there is every reason now to believe that millions of consumer records were unlawfully obtained by the National Security Agency. Of course, once the records are in possession of these firms there is nothing that users can do to limit the subsequent improper release or avoid the misuse. And there is clearly no benefit to users in the improper and unlawful disclosure of their personal information.

[....] Finally, the Commission should pursue this investigation because it routinely holds itself out as the defender of consumer privacy in the United States. It is inconceivable that when faced with the most significant breach of consumer data in U.S. history, the Commission could ignore the consequences for consumer privacy.

Talk about taking a blame the victim approach. EPIC, CDD, Consumer Watchdog, Privacy Rights Clearinghouse, Consumer Federation of America, Public Citizen (?!?) and the Privacy Times, who all signed onto this letter look ridiculous. They're saying that the FTC needs to investigate Google and Yahoo for violations of their privacy policies, because the NSA hacked into their data centers. Go after the NSA and the rest of the US government for doing that. But blaming the companies who didn't even know about this isn't just ridiculous, it's counterproductive.

These groups are so focused on trying to do anything to attack Google that they're making the situation worse. Based on this kind of ridiculous attack, pretty much any company is now better off making their privacy policies worse. The crux of EPIC's stupid argument is that this violates their privacy policies. You know the best way to avoid that? Change your privacy policy so that revealing as much information as possible isn't a violation. Furthermore, blaming the hacking victims for the hack takes the attention away from where it belongs: on the NSA and the administration for doing this in the first place.

Given that the FTC and the NSA are both a part of the administration, it's not impossible to imagine a scenario where the only ones actually punished for hacking into these data centers are Google and Yahoo, while the NSA gets away with the whole thing. Is that really what these organizations want? EPIC, CDD and Consumer Watchdog in particular like to set themselves up as "defending consumers." But they're doing the opposite here. They're inevitably making life worse for consumers. Hopefully, as it has in the past, the FTC sees through these ridiculous arguments.

Priv Grps to FTC Re NSA (PDF)Priv Grps to FTC Re NSA (Text)

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Filed Under: datacenters, ftc, infiltration, nsa hacking, nsa surveillance, privacy, privacy policies
Companies: consumer federation of america, consumer watchdog, epic, google, privacy rights clearinghouse, privacy times, public citizen, yahoo

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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:00pm

Looks like we found OOTB's sponsors
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Zakida Paul (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:05pm

So it's not just politicians and the entertainment industries who do not know that GOOGLE IS NOT THE INTERNET?

That's depressing.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:08pm

Obviously they should go after NSA, first. But they do have a point about "Google collecting all the data, and making it easy for NSA to get all this data on everyone".

Ultimately, Google, Facebook and others' business model *is* tracking of the user and everything they do. It makes the job of the police, FBI and NSA so much easier when Google and Facebook have this data nicely wrapped up and tied to everyone's names, and in a structured way.

If we're to make the Internet "secure by default", we need to dramatically reduce this total tracking by companies, too.
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Glen, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:08pm

Go home EPIC, you're drunk!!!
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:09pm

Google was quite pissed to learn of the NSA's man in the middle. So much so that they have started the encryption of data between servers to stop it. This is not Googles' doing but rather another example of the NSA gone rabid.

I would suspect this is another group supporting the NSA pushing the EPIC to do something, rather than something the EPIC has cooked up on it's own.

It's like punishing the state department for building roads because there have been accidents on the roads the state department helped fund. I have no love for Google but being hacked is not Googles' fault.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:14pm

So they're basically inviting someone to hack them, steal their info and then sue them for it, right? That's what I'm getting out of this.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:17pm

Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
It's really only Techdirt that I've found pro-Google (The Register comments are nearly all against Google). -- And why ARE you for it? In twenty-five words or less: How do the rising fortunes -- kept offshore -- of a globalist mega-corporation actually make a positive in your life?

And why should Google fear an investigation? HMM?

Here's some of Mike's wacky notions on the subject:
Mike's second-hand analysis: Google being taxed by Germany causes censorship in China!
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130605/06245023322/china-once-again-using-censorship-elsewh ere-to-justify-oppressive-great-firewall-china.shtml#c24

Haven't used this for a while:
Where Mike's "no evidence of real harm" means he wants to let secretive mega-corporations continue to grow.
Spying is the main 'business model' of the internet, especially for Google and Facebook.

09:16:09[k-257-0]
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John Fenderson (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:18pm

Re:
But they do have a point about "Google collecting all the data, and making it easy for NSA to get all this data on everyone"

I don't think they have a point there, unless they can show that these companies actively facilitated the NSA intrusions or that they were actually negligent in how they protected it. Simply collecting a tempting ball of data isn't sufficient, in my opinion.

If we're to make the Internet "secure by default", we need to dramatically reduce this total tracking by companies, too

The internet as it exists now cannot be made "secure by default", period. You'd have to replace it with a protocol that includes security from the ground up.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:20pm

Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
Thanks for the advance build-up and especially for showing how stoopid and fearful of debate you fanboy-trolls are. You're probably the witling who mis-appropriated my valuable screen name in a prior piece.
Be careful to not give personal details: only targets fanboy ad hom.

09:19:55[k-362-1]
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saulgoode (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:23pm

... But there is every reason now to believe that millions of consumer records were unlawfully obtained by the National Security Agency.
Well, first the courts would need to rule that what the NSA did was unlawful -- so I wish them best of luck in this aspect of their lawsuit.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:24pm

Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
I'm sorry, but the only value your screenname has is the amount of reports it generates on sight
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John Fenderson (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:24pm

Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
I still think you must read a different Techdirt than the rest of us. I don't see many "pro-Google" stories or comments here.

Unless, of course, you believe that if someone isn't constantly engaged in full-throated histrionics railing against All Things Google then they must be "pro Google".
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:26pm

Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
His argument appears sound on your link. You are only making logical jumps that don't make sense.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:28pm

Re: @"Google was quite pissed to learn of the NSA's man in the middle."
So it claims. All we have is its spokes-droid saying so, therefore -- in the unquestioning arena of Techdirt -- it's absolutely true.

Main problem is you kids don't even suspect nothin'. You are truly as trusting as puppies, that's part of why I call you ankle-biters. The amount of blind trust in mega-corporations is astounding. They know your buttons and push them with some free stuff and making noises, and you never even suspect a dark side. You must be completely ignorant of the history of corporate crimes and exploitation. You kids is doomed.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:33pm

Re: Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
@ "John Fenderson" I don't see many "pro-Google" stories or comments here.'

And yet here you are attacking me and implicitly defending an international mega-corporation! You "pro" side is at the moment that very defense, And of course you can't see it! You are a blind fool!

WHY do you defend Google? Just state positives -- don't attack me, that'd only prove my point again.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:34pm

Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
"Fanboys?"

Who talks like that?
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:35pm

Re: Re: @"Google was quite pissed to learn of the NSA's man in the middle."
I haven't heard any of us "kids" use the term "fanboy."
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:36pm

Re: Re: Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
The same reason you defend using the term "fanboy"
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Zakida Paul (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:37pm

Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
"Who talks like that?"

Fanboys talk like that ;-)
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Gwiz (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:39pm

Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
...fearful of debate you fanboy-trolls are...

Umm. You are the one that is apparently afraid of a debate, Blue.

I've asked you repeatedly for specifics concerning your half-baked "tax the hell out of the rich" notions.

You have yet to answer.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ "Zakida Paul" Fanboys talk like that ;-)

And here's FOUR so far driveling comments that only show I'm the major influence here to be countered. But shows that you're only up to simple ad hom.
Google wants you to know you're under our ever improving state-of-the-art personalized surveillance! We learn your interests, habits, and associations! All "free", courtesy of other corporations!

09:40:42[k-601-6]
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:41pm

Re: Re: Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
You are a fucking psychopath in the most literal sense of the word.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:41pm

Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
GOOGLE IS GREAT!
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Gwiz (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
Just state positives -- don't attack me...

Says the ad-hom king. Too funny!
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:43pm

Re: Re:
From what I gathered, it was actually Level3 Communications that facilitated the NSA by allowing them access to private DC to DC links. I wonder if Google et al could have a claim against both the NSA and telecom companies. Not that I want to see L3 lose a lot, but it would be nice to have them fight back against this abuse for their customers next time.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
Troll doesn't like being trolled?

Keep going, fanboy!
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:44pm

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
EPIC rocks and they do good work. Berating them totally for a what you see as a bad approach on a few issues is misplaced. I love TechDirt and I love what EPIC. I like what you both stand for, accomplish, and do. I don't agree with both of you all the time, but for the most part, I favor you both.

Chill a bit on the hose-fest.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ "Gwiz": I've asked you repeatedly for specifics concerning your half-baked "tax the hell out of the rich" notions.

I rarely read comments after I've made mine. Sorry you feel slighted. I advise just SAYING what you want, and letting others do the same. But here, yet again, you only demand an answer without stating ANY positive of your own. SO SAY SOMETHING ALREADY AND I MIGHT DEBATE! I can't debate you, you VACUUM.

Why would I respond to you when you show repeatedly that you're not interested in debate, merely trolling to waste my time? -- Read some history, Gwiz: when The Rich are kept busy fending off the gov't, rest of us are better off. If you've never previously heard calls for TAX THE RICH, then you clearly are not enough up to speed on class warfare to debate.

In any case, I see you were adequately answered there by another commenter:

https://www.techdirt.com/blog/innovation/articles/20130923/17400624628/posturing-over-pate nt-reform-shows-how-young-companies-innovate-while-old-companies-litigate.shtml#c181
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BentFranklin (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:48pm

Google and Yahoo may have some culpability. Rather than throw open the front door, I can see where they might have said through back channels, "We can't be seen as openly cooperating, but here's a back door you might find unlocked." That's the way the cool kids do it.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:52pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ AC: Troll doesn't like being trolled?

Keep going, fanboy!

Oh, NO, I LIKE it when you fanboy-trolls drivel endlessly! You really impress anyone dropping in -- to never return for this level of discourse.

Try taking a stab at stating WHY you support Google.
Mike's fanboy-trolls imitate him by taking no position except the pejorative.

09:52:29[k-705-2]
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Gwiz (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:55pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
I rarely read comments after I've made mine.

Right. Because you are afraid to debate your notions on their merits without resorting to ad-homs.

In any case, I see you were adequately answered there by another commenter:

That was only an answer to one question and it wasn't YOUR answer. You are the one constantly throwing out your "tax the hell out of the rich" slogans. Can you not back them up with realistic ideas on how we would accomplish such a thing?
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:56pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
Like this fanboy?
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
I never said I supported Google.

I am only pointing out what a witless turd you are by your continued use of the term "fanboy"
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:57pm

Re: Re: Re: @"Google was quite pissed to learn of the NSA's man in the middle."
@ AC: I haven't heard any of us "kids" use the term "fanboy."

So? Do you really think that relevant, informative, cogent, witty, or in any way helpful to yourself, the site, readers, Mike, or Google?

I haven't seen a single attempt at stating positive reason to support Google. And that's real data, which proves that you ankle-biters aren't up to it and/or don't have good reasons that you can openly state.
If you like yapping ankle-biters, you'll love Techdirt!

09:57:12[k-250-3]
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
Except for "fanboy" comments, right?
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:58pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
Not supporting you isn't the same as supporting google.

Acknowledging that google may not be at fault in this circumstance does not mean google is guilty of other things. Conspiracy theories and hatred of coorporations are not facts.

The end.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:58pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: @"Google was quite pissed to learn of the NSA's man in the middle."
I'm as helpful to the site as you are, fanboy
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 1:58pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: @"Google was quite pissed to learn of the NSA's man in the middle."
So much for "not reading comments after you've made yours, right fanboy?
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
You sound like a angsty Romney - shout to the heavens about how great your plan is and ask people to counter it without ever actually telling us the specifics of your plan. Here's a hint: he's not asking to debate economic policy. He's asking to debate the validity of your plan. You love to claim we're all just distracting people from the 'true' evils, yet here's a perfect example of your hypocrisy in that manner. "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" doesn't defend baseless assertions
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:02pm

Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
Analysis of the preceding attempt at avant-garde troll performance art:
-Calls other people stupid, misspells "stupid".
-Makes ad hominem attacks, chides other people for making ad hominem attacks.
-Displays bizarre, nonsensical quirks. (The heck is that timestamp thing?)

Grade: B-

Recommendations:
-Try to be even more insufferable.
-Come up with new annoying things to do so you can accuse other people of doing them.
-However, stop calling other people trolls. Way too obvious.
-Tack some more random characters onto that timestamp thing.
-Bring up at least two divisive issues per post, e.g.: religion, gay marriage, abortion, political parties, sports teams, soft drink brands, Joel vs Mike, etc. Try to fan the flames of any arguments that occur. If anyone points out that you're just trying to derail the thread, accuse them of being for the other side.
-Drink several alcoholic beverages before posting, for added irrelevancy and extra rambling.
-Consider adding even more quirks, such as adding a second ROT13-encrypted message in each post, or possibly a link to a picture of a QR code with an encoded message, or maybe just a lolcat or something. Resist the temptation to post an encoded "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine"; again, way too obvious.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:04pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ "Gwiz" Can you not back them up with realistic ideas on how we would accomplish such a thing?

YET AGAIN, you only troll me without stating anything. I've made SEVERAL statements that you don't even bother to quote and contradict! YOU ARE A VACUUM.

Read history. There's nothing new under the sun.

PS to the reasonable: I'm just having fun here trotting out my taglines while a bit awe-struck at the fanboy-trolls trashing the site with drivel.
Where Mike sez: "Any system that involves spying on the activities of users is going to be a non-starter. Creeping the hell out of people isn't a way of encouraging them to buy. It's a way of encouraging them to want nothing to do with you." -- So why doesn't that apply to The Google?

10:03:53[l-10-8]
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Gwiz (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:11pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
YET AGAIN, you only troll me without stating anything.

I've stated that I wish you to quantify your "tax the hell out rich" slogans. I might even agree with you on them, but you have never, ever (as far as I recall) provided enough information for me to make an intelligent decision.

This ball is your court, Blue. You are the one throwing out the slogans, not me. If you want me (or anyone else reading this thread) to consider your point of view you have to give me more then a vapid "tax the hell out of the rich" rallying cry.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:13pm

Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ AC :-Displays bizarre, nonsensical quirks. (The heck is that timestamp thing?)

It's what I've found necessary for self-defense as if you read through here, you'll see a couple false posts (use the identicon) using my screen name. The fanboy-trolls think this annoys me, when actually just shows the insane levels they go to drive dissent off the site. They love the report button too.

The validation code is a simple algorithm that could be figured out if studied, but to do so and imitage changes posts from protected free speech into deliberate fraud. And so they don't.

It's all a hoot here if you don't take it seriously. Thanks for your suggestions, but I'm NOT trolling, I'm trying to establish a civil forum, and will stick to my own notions on how to suppress/rile the ankle-biters. -- Say, that reminds me of a tagline:
Reality versus Mike: Technorati ranks Techdirt around 6000.
http://technorati.com/blogs/www.techdirt.com
So why does Mike claim "a consistent Technorati Technology Top 100 rating"?
http://www.techdirt.com/about.php

10:11:48[l-122-3]
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Rikuo (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
" I've made SEVERAL statements that you don't even bother to quote and contradict!"

Blue...you're the one person here who's OCD enough (no insult intended towards those who are OCD) to keep careful note of comments here on Techdirt, so as to quote them later. No-one else is. Do you honestly expect Gwiz to take valuable time out of his schedule to go through EVERY article on Techdirt and look for your comments, so as to quote them.
Perhaps if you made an account under the name Out_of_the_blue, that would make things a bit easier...oh...wait. I forgot. You can't. You didn't bother making an account, because you didn't want your comments easily tracked. Well, too late now.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ "Gwiz" This ball is your court, Blue.

Can't you get that I'm not biting? Gee whiz, I've more than once gone round with you like this, SHEER BAIT to keep you going, and you do! It's like teasing feeble-minded ankle-biters.

You'll just have to suss out my views by reading my usual posts. I'm not answering your demand to have it NOW. I've already stated SEVERAL points here, and yes, ALL I've gotten from you is demands to write more OFF-TOPIC! This was about Google.

Your turn.
When you think surveillance or spying or snooping, think Google!

10:20:15[l-401-6]
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Rikuo (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
"imitage "

Da fuq is that?

" protected free speech into deliberate fraud"

Wrong. There is no fraud for people like me using the name OOTB on a signed in account. It is not a legal identity. You have no claim to it, just as I have no claim to the online handle Rikuo. If you're so sure it's fraud, then I invite you to sue me. Go on. Get a lawyer, and subpoena Techdirt for my identity. Mike has it, since I use Paypal to pay for my Insider status. I double dog dare you to.
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CK20XX (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:22pm

The mentality that it's always the victim's fault...
Isn't this what you still see happen in a lot of rape cases? You know, the idea that you somehow enticed a horrible person into violating you?
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John Fenderson (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:24pm

Re: Re: Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
The funny thing is that you & I are actually on the same side of the spectrum when it comes to Google. I have real issues with the company and how they operate. The difference between you and I is that I am not a total fanatic.

I this case, I don't see how Google is guilty of what EPIC is alleging. The burden is on them to support their accusations, which they have yet to do. Until they do, I'll defend Google.

I will defend anybody and anything on points where I think that they are in the right, including Google. I've even defended you on a number of occasions. Saying that someone is right on a particular point is not even close to the same thing as being in favor of them.

This is called intellectual honesty. If a given entity is wrong 99% of the time, but on a particular point they are right, it is dishonest to avoid defending them on that point just because they're wrong on everything else.
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Rikuo (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:24pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
Well then it's official. You don't have anything beyond "SUE THE FUCKING RICH!" If you did, you'd post your ideas. If you've got time to waste here on TD and complain of being trolled, you've got time to explain your views like an adult.
But no. You don't. You're a coward and a troll. An admitted troll, what with the "SHEER BAIT" line up above. Congrats. Do you feel like you've accomplished something worthwhile? Is the world a better place with your worthless comments here on Techdirt?
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:25pm

So the hen asks the fox to punish the farmer for failing to keep foxes out of the henhouse.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:25pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ "Rikuo": "Do you honestly expect Gwiz to take valuable time out of his schedule to go through EVERY article on Techdirt and look for your comments, so as to quote them."

Oh, but you expect me to perform on demand.

Listen, sonny, quit trolling me, or I'll post your old comments here -- and WOW, after that item today about the Tories in England wiping out their comment so wouldn't be used against them, WHAT AN ODD THING TO WRITE that you fanboy-trolls don't want your old comments brought up again!

I'm mildly interested to see how surreal this thread gets. Keep going, ankle-biters. You embiggen me with your drivel.
Google. Making your life better by spying right up to the creepy limit. (tm) -- And soon as you're used to it, we get creepier!

10:25:41[l-626-5]
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Rikuo (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:26pm

Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
Since when was I considered pro Google? I fucking loathe the company, probably more than you claim to.
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Gwiz (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
Lol Blue.

I have to assume (and probably most others here) based on your non-answers and constant ad-homs that you don't have the answers and your half-baked notions are simply empty rallying cries. Thanks for the confirmation.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:29pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ "Rikuo" : There is no fraud for people like me using the name OOTB

I meant: imitaTe.

As I state, IF you are pretending to actually be me by duplicating / faking the sequence of characters I put up, then that's deliberate fraud. It's FRAUD whether you're sued or not.

Why exactly do you defend fraud, besides go so far OFF-TOPIC?
Google's special invite to Techdirters in San Fran: come down to Smelly Wharf for our party barge! Enjoy steam-punk atmosphere of corrugated steel and all the claustrophobia you can handle! Party like it's 1899!

10:29:37[l-842-1]
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Rikuo (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:31pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
" don't want your old comments brought up again!"

That's you hun, not us. Go on, click on my account name and quote any and all of my comments to your heart's desire. That's partly why I created the account.

"Oh, but you expect me to perform on demand."

Again, that's you. YOU want Gwiz to do the legwork of looking for your comments that supposedly outline your TAX THE FUCKING RICH ideas. The polite, adult thing to do is, if not directly quote them, at least link to them, or give Gwiz a line from them so he can do a search. Simply conducting a search for "Out_of_the_blue Rich" will bring up thousands of comments. He's not going to take the time to sort through them for something that everyone else knows doesn't exist. The ball is in your court. You constantly scream and shout to tax the rich, but never explain it.
To be honest, I honestly don't care if you never explain it. Past experience tells me you're dishonest, trollish, a coward and quite possibly the stupidest person alive. Oh, and an oxygen thief. Can't forget that one. The collective IQ of Earth goes down a notch while you're alive.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:34pm

OTOH
They may not be arguing their case well, but....
Many, many groups have begged and pleaded with the likes of Google, Yahoo, and others to utilize HTTPS and other forms of encryption in every way and place possible. I can see where each company's failure to encrypt the data stream endangers our data and hence, privacy rights. Failure to encrypt is a potential privacy violation waiting to happen. At least - that's my take on the issue.
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John Fenderson (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:36pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
As I state, IF you are pretending to actually be me by duplicating / faking the sequence of characters I put up, then that's deliberate fraud.

You are completely, 100% wrong about this. Your weird tag means nothing. A comment from someone pretending to be you is no more or less "fraud" because they imitated or didn't imitate it.
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Rikuo (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:38pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud

Go on, have a read. I went through it and nowhere does it say creating an online account with the name most often used by a troll is considered fraud.
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John Fenderson (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:39pm

Re: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
Some of what EPIC does is good, but they do have a tendency to take very strange and misdirected stances. There's nothing wrong with calling them out when they do. In fact, there would be something wrong with not calling them out on it just because they're generally in line with your politics.
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Anonymity is not a sign of cowardice., 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:41pm

Wow, Mike. They only seemed to look "kooky" when they suggested investigating your GoogleGod. Your GoogleGod needs investigated from all possible vectors - and not just by the feds.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:44pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ "John Fenderson"

>>> As I state, IF you are pretending to actually be me by duplicating / faking the sequence of characters I put up, then that's deliberate fraud.

You are completely, 100% wrong about this. Your weird tag means nothing. A comment from someone pretending to be you is no more or less "fraud" because they imitated or didn't imitate it.

You fanboy-trolls really don't understand common law, do you? Any normal people will be upset at those who falsely use my screen name, NOT at me. -- In fact, the false use of it is to try and upset me as would any normal person! That alone proves you're just a FOOL with mere gainsaying. Anything to contradict me, NEVER a positive statement from you ankle-biters.

Be a second while I select yet another tagline...
Visitor beware! Fanboy-trolls may ask you questions! But only to wear you down.

10:43:49[l-850-4]
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Pedant, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:44pm

Ultimately, Google, Facebook and others' business model *is* tracking of the user
And users signed up to google knowing this.
If you don't like it, noone's forcing you to use it.

The people to sue are the private fibre service google was leasing lines from, who apparently let the NSA in. It was them, not google, whose infrastructure leaked the information.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
"This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it"

@ AC: I'm sorry, but the only value your screenname has is the amount of reports it generates on sight

Heh,heh. At present, the sitch is that YOU got censored with the report button, and NOT ME!
Techdirt. A "safe haven" for pirates. Weenies welcome. Vulgarity cheered.

10:47:56[l-210-2]
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Rikuo (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
So making you upset is a crime now?

I'm back. I just got back home from the nut house. Blue's comment up above was so hilarious that I started laughing like Mark Hammill's Joker. It was so scary I was confined, but thankfully, I've calmed down now.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:51pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ "GWiz" Lol Blue.

I have to assume

But I don't have to assume, I have real data: you've yet to say anything!

Here's the tagline you deserve:
Visitor beware! Fanboy-trolls may ask you questions! But only to wear you down.

10:50:35[l-501-8]
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:54pm

You've finally made it big, blue
An entire article dedicated to enshrining ootb-brand Full Retard� for posterity. Centuries from now, scholars will come to witness this marvel and leave speechless (or otherwise unable to express the experience coherently).
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Rikuo (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:55pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
"But I don't have to assume, I have real data: you've yet to say anything!"

Says the guy who doesn't want to explain any of his ideas. Oh and asking questions of commentators is now a sign of being a fanboy-troll?

If you've got real data SHOW IT. Otherwise it doesn't exist, as far as everyone else on this rock is concerned.
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John Fenderson (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:56pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
What does common law have to do with it?
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 2:59pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ "Rikuo" "Past experience tells me you're dishonest, trollish, a coward and quite possibly the stupidest person alive."

Always straining for the most vile ad hom. It's the primary characteristic of the fanboy-trolls. Dissent isn't tolerated here; they just try to run you off.

I'm sure to have told you before: just say what you want, ON-TOPIC -- but you don't have anything except ad hom.

By the way, this UN-understanding of the common "TAX THE RICH" theme is typical for Techdirt. The kids seem to have popped up ex vacuo and have not a bit of history. One can write long and often over three years to explain the simpley fact that The Rich always wage a class war on the poor, and then get endless demands to explain.
The freedoms you take for granted today were death penalty treason in 1776. Don't let the Inherited Rich restore feudalism. Pull them down with high taxes on unearned income -- and ZERO taxes on wages, they HATE that!

10:58:49[l-365-4]
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Does it matter? It', 14 Nov 2013 @ 3:05pm

Wow, someone is watching this thread like a HAWK. Censored is anyone with a common sense opinion about the GoogleGod or Mike it's worshiper.
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out_of_the_blue, 14 Nov 2013 @ 3:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
@ "John Fenderson": What does common law have to do with it?

Stunning! In one short sentence you voided all law since Magna Carta!

Common law is the basis of the US Constitution, not the reverse. Statute is tertiary. Common law as applied in context of this (useless) thread means that you don't pretend to be someone else in order to bring them into disrepute and run them off the site, as is the clear intention of those falsely using my screen name. It's simple decency, you ankle-biter. Any normal person will understand that at once. Just not at Techdirt.

Now, I've answered your question with only one mild pejorative of "ankle-biter".

Now you try to say something positive ON TOPIC, not run me ragged with yet another question that shows abject ignorance of the very basis of civilization.

The fanboy-trolls just LOVE it when I'm in feisty mood and respond: I validate their very existence.
out_of_the_blue: the only commenter up to know good!

11:08:24[m-65-6]
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Rikuo (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 3:13pm

Re:
Care to provide evidence anyone on Techdirt worships Google? No? Then shut the fuck up.
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art guerrilla (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 3:18pm

well, they *were* asking for it...
hip, fit, rich young companies like google and yahoo going around with all that sexy data just hanging out all over, and hardly anything on, are you kidding me, they're just asking for it, aren't they ? ? ?

i mean c'mon, a red-white-and-blue-blooded spook couldn't be expected to resist a fine piece of prime database like those bitches, could they ? ? ?

for chrissakes, they LORD their hot data over everybody all the time, teasing us with their shapely consumption curves, flashing those suggestive ads at you *everywhere* you go, man, that's just not right...

what do they expect ? ? ?

art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof
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John Fenderson (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 3:53pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
I know what common law is. Your answer, although powerfully insulting, is not actually an answer. As near as I can tell, you're saying that "it's rude to impersonate me, therefore common law" or something. I really don't know what you're trying to say, that's why I'm asking.

What I'm saying is that impersonating you in the comments (something that I don't support and wish would stop, for what it's worth), at least in the way it's been done here, is not illegal and adding your code tag doesn't make it illegal.
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JMT (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 4:09pm

Re: Re: @"Google was quite pissed to learn of the NSA's man in the middle."
"...you kids don't even suspect nothin'."

So... you're saying we do suspect something?
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JMT (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 4:21pm

Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
"It's really only Techdirt that I've found pro-Google..."

Perhaps you should listen to Google users, most of whom seem pretty happy with the extensive range of services they're offered for free.

"How do the rising fortunes -- kept offshore -- of a globalist mega-corporation actually make a positive in your life?"

I use Google Search multiple times a day for free.
I use Android software phone multiple times a day for free.
I use Youtube multiple times a day for free.
I use Google Maps daily for free.
I use Google Play Store often for free.
I use Gmail occasionally for free.
I use Google Translate occasionally for free.

These are all pretty positive experiences for me and millions of others. No matter what Google's problems are, and there are plenty, the positives still significantly outweigh the negatives.

"Where Mike's "no evidence of real harm" means he wants to let secretive mega-corporations continue to grow."

No, it means those claiming real harm have offered no concrete evidence of such harm, and until that evidence is presented it's a completely valid statement by Mike and many others.
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Karl (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 4:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
Common law is the basis of the US Constitution, not the reverse.

Uh, no, it's not.

Common law is law that is created by the judiciary rather than by the legislature. It is when judges make legal decisions based on socially normative values of justice.

For example, before it was codified in the copyright statutes, fair use was common law. On the other hand, copyright was never common law.

And there was never any kind of "common law" right to protect a fake name used exclusively for lying and attacking people. So, the fake OOTB's are safe.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 4:52pm

Kiss Googles Ass
That's the TD way, they SHOULD be investigated, and if they have nothing to hide they have nothing to worry about.

What a surprise that you go after NSA (after all they don't pay you), but kiss Goolag's ass.

Lets try to find the last ounce of TD credibility !!!
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 4:55pm

Re: Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, just a basic legal tenant.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 4:56pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
What about TD's and masick complete fanatics in regard to NSA ?
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Gwiz (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 4:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
As far as I can deduce, Blue's concept of "common law" is basically that for anything Blue doesn't approve of, he/she can find some outdated law somewhere and say "Common Law!" and that trumps every statute and ruling that has superseded it.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 4:59pm

Re: Re:
"Simply collecting a tempting ball of data isn't sufficient, in my opinion.
"

yes, might be true, and if so its as true for the NSA as it is for Goolag !!
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 5:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
"To be honest, I honestly don't care if you never explain it. Past experience tells me you're dishonest, trollish, a coward and quite possibly the stupidest person alive. "

There is someone more stupid by far,, YOU Rikuo
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 5:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
yes, CENSOR ON SITE, way to go TD Troll, Mr Masnick ass licker. (or worse).
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 5:11pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
"You really impress anyone dropping in"

very true, but the TD ass lickers don't want too many "real people" asking all sorts of difficult questions of Masnick, or questioning his motives to stand up for "big data collection".

Or seeing the complete hypocrisy displayed here, you don't want too many people to know of Masnicks 'real motives'
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That One Guy (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 5:19pm

Re:
But they do have a point about "Google collecting all the data, and making it easy for NSA to get all this data on everyone".

By that same logic, if someone broke into a house and stole a bunch of stuff, it would be the homeowner's fault for having such a valuable collection of stuff in one place, providing incentive for the break-in, which would be insane.

When you've got a break-in, whether physical or digital, the proper one to blame is the one that performed the intrusion, not the one who had their stuff taken.
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That One Guy (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 5:21pm

The authoritarian troll is out in force on this one, seems the article struck a nerve, so good job and keep it up.
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Nicolas (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 6:03pm

Money
Who funds EPIC?
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2013 @ 6:43pm

Re: Re: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
Agreed. The hosefest happens more in the comments, however; the calling out happens in the article (tho, I don't favor the strong bias on Mike's part, that's okay - it's his blog).
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Chronno S. Trigger (profile), 14 Nov 2013 @ 9:35pm

Re: Re: Re:
"yes, might be true, and if so its as true for the NSA as it is for Goolag !!"

Except I can opt out of Google. I can't opt out of the NSA. Hell, you can't opt out of the NSA even if you live in another country.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Nov 2013 @ 4:06am

Re: Re:
"unless they can show that these companies actively facilitated the NSA intrusions"

You mean like the telcos?
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Nov 2013 @ 4:21am

Re:
Actually for that to happen the government would have to allow a case to proceed through the court system far enough that the courts could rule on it. They KNOW what they are doing is unconstitutional despite their insistence that it isn't, so they use use every trick they can to kill every case before the courts can address the constitutional questions in it. If they are so confident that what they are doing is lawful, why not let some cases proceed so that the legal precedent to support their claims be set?
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Nov 2013 @ 4:28am

Re: You've finally made it big, blue
My thoughts exactly. After reading the headline on the article I knew this was going to be an ootb spewfest.
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Corwin (profile), 15 Nov 2013 @ 5:41am

The inexorably advancing all-crushing wall of ice
Total transparency everywhere for everyone and everything forever : the trust-free world is coming even faster than I would ever have thought.
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Jim Anderson, 15 Nov 2013 @ 6:12am

Google good bad or indifferent
If Google and the other large companies have done nothing wrong then they should be asking for a full investigation to clear their business reputations. Of course they are not calling for any investigation. These companies after some of the spying is revealed have become champions of privacy. We may never know what happened. A very large powerful government acting in secrect may have made demands that could not have been refused. Corporate interests in the US and the rest of the world should come clean and support independent investigation. Google and other companies should reveal their role in the spying so everyone can have faith in their actions going forward.
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Ed (profile), 15 Nov 2013 @ 7:01am

Re: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
EPIC's obsession with Google makes me wonder where their funding comes from. Follow the money.
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Vic, 15 Nov 2013 @ 7:32am

Re: Re:
Right! My thought went exactly in the same direction, but I was thinking about bank robbers. It's obviously a bank's fault that it has collected so much money from all the people!
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Karl (profile), 15 Nov 2013 @ 8:28am

Re: Google good bad or indifferent
If Google and the other large companies have done nothing wrong then they should be asking for a full investigation to clear their business reputations. Of course they are not calling for any investigation.

Except they are doing exactly that.
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Niall (profile), 15 Nov 2013 @ 9:07am

Re: Re: Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
Is a 'legal tenant' someone who rents a law office?

And it may be a basic legal tenet, but EPIC still have to actually a) prove harm, and b) prove that Google are liable. Good luck to them there!
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Niall (profile), 15 Nov 2013 @ 9:09am

Re:
No, the farmer has a 'duty' of care there. It would be more like someone suing the farmer for keeping hens where a fox would be tempted to break in on them, even though he put protection up.

Unless you mean the 'fox' is the government as a legal institution, as well as the offender via NSA?
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Gene Owens, 15 Nov 2013 @ 10:10am

Google
I think the are right in calling for an invstigation Google had to give them permission to spy on users .
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John Fenderson (profile), 15 Nov 2013 @ 10:32am

Re: Re: Re:
Yes.
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John Fenderson (profile), 15 Nov 2013 @ 10:35am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Heh, heh. Google IS a willing co-conspirator.
You speak as if this is something that is obviously a fact, but it's not obvious at all. So please support your position. In what way is Techdirt or Mike being complete fanatics about the NSA?
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John Fenderson (profile), 15 Nov 2013 @ 10:42am

Re: Money
Most of their funding comes from individual contributions form their members and attorney's fees. They also get occasional grants from companies and other nonprofits. A partial list includes:

Arca Foundation, Bauman Foundation, Carnegie Corporation, Counterpane Systems, Nathan Cummings Foundation, Earthlink, Ford Foundation, Fund for Constitutional Government, HKH Foundation, W.K. Kellog Foundation, Irving Kohn Foundation, Albert List Foundation, Lutz Foundation Trust, Markle Foundation, Metromail Cy Pres Fund, Norman Foundation, Omidyar Network, Open Society Institute, Quixote Foundation, Red Hat Center, Rockefeller Family Fund, Rose Foundation, Glushko-Samuelson Foundation, Scherman Foundation, Simons Foundation, Sun Hill Foundation, Sun Microsystems, Trio Foundation of St. Louis, Working Assets, Zero Knowledge Systems
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John Fenderson (profile), 15 Nov 2013 @ 10:48am

Re: Google
Google had to give them permission to spy on users

No, Google's permission was not necessary. Google was getting spied on through their "ISP", Level 3. Also, we can safely assume that Google has provided information in response to legal government demands (which hardly counts as giving "permission").

Google may well have been complicit -- I don't know -- but I've seen nothing that indicates their cooperation was necessary for the NSA to accomplish what they accomplished.
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nasch (profile), 15 Nov 2013 @ 11:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where the fanboys LIE about me in advance!
I double dog dare you to.

Wow, two A Christmas Story references in one thread.
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nasch (profile), 15 Nov 2013 @ 12:06pm

Re:
I can see where they might have said through back channels,

Sure, but do you have any reason to think that actually happened?
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Nov 2013 @ 5:09pm

darryl and out_of_the_blue just hate it when due process is enforced.
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The Wanderer (profile), 23 Nov 2013 @ 8:29am

Re: Re:
By that same logic, if someone broke into a house and stole a bunch of stuff, it would be the homeowner's fault for having such a valuable collection of stuff in one place, providing incentive for the break-in, which would be insane.
The problem with this analogy is that it is presumptively legitimate for the homeowner to have that stuff in the first place; it's his stuff, it belongs to him.

The argument that appears to be being raised is specifically that it is not legitimate for Google to have, or to collect, this information in the first place; it's not Google's stuff, it belongs to the people Google collected it from.

As such, if the information is stolen from Google, Google can be held at fault for having collected the information in the first place.

There are reasonable objections to that line of reasoning, but on its face it doesn't sound like a completely unreasonable argument, at least to me.
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