Clueless French Court Orders Search Engines To Disappear Entire Sites For Copyright Infringement
from the wave-that-magic-wand dept
Every so often it seems like a completely, technologically (and basic concept of properly applied liability) ignorant court does something like what a French court did last week. The High Court of Paris says that Google, Microsoft and Yahoo need to completely delist 16 full sites from their index -- even to sites hosting perfectly non-infringing works. This, of course, was the dream of SOPA: that search engines would have to make sites completely disappear based on their say-so that the sites were "pirate" sites. But reality doesn't work that way for a variety of reasons. Sites that have significant infringing uses at one time, also have significant non-infringing uses, and as the technology develops, they tend to increase the non-infringing uses. The VCR, for example, was mainly used to copy works in unauthorized ways when it was first launched -- but part of the problem was the refusal of the industry itself to embrace the new technologies. Yet, now the court is killing even that possibility -- so creators who want to make use of these platforms to promote themselves are completely out of luck, because the more powerful legacy industry lobbyists got a court to basically kill off those platforms.As we noted last week, this SOPAfication of the world is increasingly the goal of the entertainment industries, and they've been having a lot of success in Europe, where sympathetic lawmakers and courts don't seem to recognize how they're propping up an industry that doesn't want to adapt, while striking a blow against two important things: disruptive new innovations and the concept of secondary liability.
Search engines aren't there to help people find what the legacy industries want them to find. They're designed to help the searcher find what that searcher wants. Telling those search engines they can't do that, and that they have to point to what some other industry wants, sets a very dangerous precedent. Letting legacy industries effectively program search engines to their liking pretty much guarantees limited innovation, both by stopping those innovative new platforms from gaining traction, while at the same time convincing the legacy players that they can continue to rest on their laurels.
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Filed Under: blocking, censorship, europe, france, intermediaries, search engines
Companies: google, microsoft, yahoo
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Nope. You are being the douchebag here. We are talking about the freedom to search for what we are looking for. Which is not even remotely close to illegal downloading.
It's like removing a Flea Market from Google Maps because someone in one of the booths was selling knock-off designer handbags.
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So? Tough shit, douchebag. It's a pirate site trafficking content illegally.
I want to search for a professional assassin in the Yellow Pages. Waa waa, I can't!!
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At least TRY to get a similar point.
What the court is ordering search engines to do is equal to courts saying that all blank DVDs and VHS tapes are illegal, or that reading books in a library is illegal.
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You grew up underneath power lines, didn't you?
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Leaving aside you conflating the traditionally civil crime of copyright infringement with a serious criminal charge of killing someone, your analogy still doesn't hold much water.
Search engines are not like the Yellow Pages. More like the White Pages - if there's a phone number it's included, unless you specifically request an unlisted number. The Yellow Pages are more like the sponsored links on Google - they pay for placement.
The White Pages most certainly do not vet the owner of each and every number and (AFAIK) the Yellow Pages does not vet the businesses they list either. If you pay them, you get listed. Nor do I believe that listing a professional assassin would even be illegal. If someone was really stupid enough to do that, more power to them. It's like putting a giant flashing arrow above your head for the authorities find you.
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Then they told me what I could say
Not before long they told me what I could do
In the end they told me what I could think
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Next, they will be ordering the removal of criminals' phone numbers from the phone book.
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You almost have to wonder...
Honestly it's almost like they've never used a computer for anything more complicated than typing something up, and get their entire 'knowledge' about the internet from the cases that come before them, and the arguments presented in said cases, never doing any research, or learning about the subject at hand, beyond that.
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I'd love to see this happen and watch the fallout.
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/s
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these industries are not going to stop until they have complete control of the internet! that will come with the blessing of the NSA, DoJ and others who will be able to continue spying on everyone because of laws allowing 3rd parties to watch everything that everyone does on the net. it wont be long before you have to go through those industries who will decide what sites can go to the net, what they can contain, what people can view, upload and download, etc. etc. and while you are waiting, your site, your business could easily be going down the tube. it will eventually get approved, but a fee will have to be paid for their 'admin work' and agreement to you doing whatever. the only way to speed up the process will be to ,dare i say it, bribe someone! half the reason we're in this position now is because of bribes paid to and accepted by US politicians! it would be interesting to find out exactly who was given what in France to allow this case to go to court and to achieve the verdict it did. those concerned, like the fucking idiots Cameron and Perry in the UK, think it is just a matter of turning off a switch to get what you want to happen without fucking up everything else!
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Still won't work...
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And there are torrent specific distributed search engines making the rounds like the dubious torrentforage.
Oh look all piracy stopped...oh wait, false alarm pirates just moved to other places that are not reachable by French law.
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Re: Still won't work...
This is forcing a couple of search engines to remove allegedly infringing sites from their search results.
All people have to do is use a different search engine or, better yet, bookmark their favourite site.
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In the long run this will not hurt pirates at all, but it will hurt your average user. I mean fuck how do they plan to stop word of mouth, countless online chat communities, gamers, or the billion other ways to find your shit?
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By the magical powers vested in me...
Damn. Didn't work.
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Not one penny...
They want money, they need to stop being stupid.
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This isn't as one-sided as Techdirt would have you believe. Google et. al. aren't the ones that are going to have to foot the bill to implement this insanity: The music/movie industry is. This silliness is coming out of their pocket. And that's fine by me.
As for the blockade itself, my opinion is that it is doomed to fail. Sites can move to Tor, Freenet, GNUNet or the myriad of alt-nets that exist. These networks are far more resilient to censorship and most are encrypted by default. If this blockade bothers you, do as they do in the Open-Source movement: fork the Internet. Make a better one, instead of sitting on your ass whining.
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How do you figure that? Google and the others now have to take significant measures to make sure they don't accidentally list these sites, or face harsh fines from the courts. This translates into time, labour and money. This will cost Google et al
As for your last paragraph, yes, that would be great if the majority of the internet moved to those censorship-resistant networks. The problem is that you first need to know that they exist and second, that you possess some technical skills to access them. If we think of it in terms of a Venn diagram, only a tiny subset of the total amount of Internet users will have even heard of Tor, and only a subset of that subset would know how to access the network.
Given that this is the equivalent of a niche market, then censorship has been achieved, more or less, towards the majority of Internet users.
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RTFS.
"Google and the others now have to take significant measures to make sure they don't accidentally list these sites, or face harsh fines from the courts. This translates into time, labour and money. This will cost Google et al"
I don't know the details, but they can probably bill the content industry for time/money spent.
"As for your last paragraph, yes, that would be great if the majority of the internet moved to those censorship-resistant networks. The problem is that you first need to know that they exist..."
Talk to people. Tell them about these things. Give them a copy of the software. Give them the source. Help them set it up. Help them use it. Note their difficulty and improve the software, if you can, or contact people that can.
"...and second, that you possess some technical skills to access them."
Installing the tor bundle takes 5 minutes. I admit that using tor effectively is still difficult. But that is our - the people with technical ability - fault. We most note their difficulties and improve the software.
After all, using the internet used to be scary and hard (I still have nightmares about setting up a PCI modem card that I had...oh the pain). Now it is mostly plug-and-play.
"If we think of it in terms of a Venn diagram, only a tiny subset of the total amount of Internet users will have even heard of Tor, and only a subset of that subset would know how to access the network."
Same point as above.
"Given that this is the equivalent of a niche market, then censorship has been achieved, more or less, towards the majority of Internet users."
That's rich coming from a Techdirt usual. You know how you keep telling people that the report button isn't censorship because you can still reveal the comment? This is about the same thing.
But snide comment aside, people are being censored because they don't know about the alternatives. You can solve this by teaching them about the alternatives.
Unfortunately, if they still choose to be bound and gagged, you can't change that. It's the tragedy of Democracy, I'm afraid.
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It is NOT the same thing; with a hidden comment a marker is visible on the page; with this there is no marker to indicate that which is hidden.
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How? Take a regular troll comment that gets reported here on Techdirt by the community. First off, this is the community at large voting independently of one another (re-read that part a few times just so you understand. We TD regulars don't communicate with each other and say "Click report on this comment!" We don't say anything. We each click report out of our own free will) versus a site or network, under attack from those misusing the legal system having to go onto an alt.net to survive.
Second, hidden comments on Techdirt are still plenty viewable. There is a notice that tells you there is a comment there, just not viewable unless you click a single button. Contrast that with what the copyright cartels are pushing for, with search engines being told they can't even list certain sites in their search results; this is done because these search engines don't want to end up in court, so they automatically delist these sites. Without the threat of a court battle hanging over their head like the Sword of Damocles, they wouldn't do it.
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That's like the third time you've used the term "cocksucker" in this thread. What happened? Mom teach you a new word?
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You have no idea what you're talking about.
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You have no idea what you're talking about.
No, but you could type in a ten number address. So fucking what? Also, under SOPA, you'd first have to gotten the court to agree that the website was DEDICATED to infringing activity- not just happen to have infringing material on it but DEDICATED to infringing. And then you'd have to return to court to get that specific sanction approved. All the while the website owner is free to defend himself under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
It amazing how stupid you are and ridiculous you look telling others they don't know what they're talking about.
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Maybe your definition of "due process" would be more publicly accepted if you lot hadn't shit on it so much over the years.
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Personally, I don't think that's the really interesting tidbit at all. I think it's not really relevant to why orders like this are a Bad Thing.
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You'd think they would've join the 21st century by now...
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Can we..
HOW the Church tried to cover up, and Shoot any other interpretations..
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So why should they get a pass for infringing? Are you suggesting it's ok because eventually, maybe they might in the future not infringe?
Your reasoning gets more and more desperate as the noose tightens around the necks of these infringement profiteers and the freeloaders they serve.
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Because you don't blame the tool for how people use it. Kinda common sense.
Are you suggesting it's ok because eventually, maybe they might in the future not infringe?
No, I'm suggesting it's moronic, because when your buddies in the industry finally (after kicking and screaming) figure out how to actually use the technology properly, they always discover that there are more ways to make more money. That's why you don't blame the tool.
Your reasoning gets more and more desperate as the noose tightens around the necks of these infringement profiteers and the freeloaders they serve.
Yeah, just like you and your friends would have killed the VCR and the MP3 player, right? Seriously: you don't have a clue. Please stop killing innovation.
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So you believe that banks have no responsibility to guard against money laundering either? How's that any different?
I don't think chanting "but, but innovation" trumps the law and respect for the IP of others. It is possible to innovate without violating the law, but your buddies seem to find it burdensome. And how innovative is it to distribute movies that belong to others for the purpose of ling your own pockets. Maybe your friends should try actually creating a motion picture and profiting for that rather than simply being another parasite, feeding on the creativity and innovation of others.
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Do you mean someone like Aereo, who innovated and purposely took insane precautions to remain within the current laws and got sued for their trouble anyways?
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There are hundreds of thousands of companies that start up legitimate, non-infringing businesses every year. They're to be applauded. But the parasites who unlawfully appropriate and monetize the creative output of others shouldn't be congratulated as innovators- they're nothing more than parasites living off of the creativity and hard work of others.
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Citation needed.
Even you said "Aereo won for now."
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Why not start at the top? And remember, Hollywood directly funds criminals through its drug connections. And their constant frauds and taxation shenanigans. And their own IP infringements. And their perversion of justice.
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The reason banks have that responsibility is because banking is very heavily regulated by the government. Banks are not free agents, they have to adhere to the rules of their license to get and keep their license.
And nobody says it does. What people are saying is that you should go after the people who actually break the law, not the people who make legitimate tools.
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I don't see why they should get a pass, other than it is inconvenient; which frankly isn't much of an excuse.
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I'm open to any resolution that strikes a balance between free speech and the protection of intellectual property. I will never agree that IP should be sacrificed on the alter of free speech. Nor the opposite. But I have a real tough time seeing how illegally displaying a movie is the kind of protected speech that needs the highest degree of protection. Political speech, religious speech social commentary, criticism are all very worthwhile to afford protection but the claims surrounding pirated movies as "free speech" frankly offend the lofty principles of the founding fathers IMHO.
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That's not what we're talking about here at all. What we're talking about is whether or not people should be "held accountable" for crimes they did not commit.
If you really want to target the pirate sites, then that's what you should do. Attacking search engines is silly and stupid -- it accomplishes exactly nothing inn exchange for the harm is does. What you really should do is, I dunno, maybe target the site which is actually engaging in the infringement.
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LOL Hyperbolic much?
If your "innovation" requires breaking the law, then it's a bad business model. Not my problem, sorry.
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The other side of that coin is:
If your business model depends solely on holding back innovation, that's also a bad business model.
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I just love it how you guys downplay the "creative output" of those who write the software and build the systems. It's almost like they are second class citizens to you, instead of on equal footing when it comes to creativity.
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Incorrect. Here's a quote from PCMAG. Although, they are using the BSA, RIAA and MPAA numbers, which I think are all overinflated:
Nor (at least as far as I know) do the people who write software receive residual benefit from their work. In the motion picture industry, retirement plans, health insurance and income (SAG, WGA and DGA) are funded by the downstream revenue that's subject to the corrosive effect of piracy.
That's because the software guys are focusing more on creating the next cool thing instead of resting on their laurels waiting for the residual check to show up. As for the health care and retirement plans, that's a sweet deal - too bad the average joe sweating it out on a hourly job in the real world doesn't get such things these days.
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Getting residual income to sustain your family between temporary assignments is hardly "resting on their laurels". The US motion picture industry is the most dominant and creative in the world. And if the software guys formed labor unions the way that the motion picture industry workers have, they'd have such a "sweet deal". Clearly the software industry generates the income to provide those things for their hourly workers, but asking politely will never get you there.
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Yes, I'm pretty sure that the software industry has good benefits also. That wasn't really my point.
I was just reminding you that the majority of your customer base, the people who spend money on your products, don't consider things like affordable health care and retirement benefits as an automatic given these days. It's not the 1980's anymore.
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But keep trying to convince yourself that it is.
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Hmm. Maybe you should stop looking down your nose at the *real* world around you. Your ivory tower view is a bit distorted.
First point: Unions only represent less than 12% of the US workforce. Less than 7% if you remove government workers.
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/much-american-workforce-composed-labor-unions-60087.html
Secon d point: Union support by the general populace is waning. Michigan, one of the traditional places were union support runs high recently passed a "Right to Work" law that made it illegal to prevent someone from working at a union shop even if they don't join the union or pay the dues. Nationwide support for these type of laws is at 74%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law
Third point: Most innovation and 39% of the GDP comes from small business, not major corporations. Small businesses have the viable option of going out of business, instead of bowing to unreasonable union demands when forced with unionization. Not much bargaining power for unions there.
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/legacy/opadhome/mtdpweb/sbfacts.htm
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As all they can seem to produce is comic-book movies and endless remakes and sequels, "creative" isn't in the list of adjectives I'd use.
And software would suck hard.
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As all they can seem to produce is comic-book movies and endless remakes and sequels, "creative" isn't in the list of adjectives I'd use.
If you look at it through the eyes of the market rather than your own personal bias, you'd see you're wrong.
"if the software guys formed labor unions the way that the motion picture industry workers have, they'd have such a "sweet deal"."
And software would suck hard.
I see. So you contend that having things like residuals, industrywide pension and health insurance and the right to negotiate over wages, hours and working conditions would make software suck? Perhaps; but the US motion picture and TV industry is among the most successful global enterprises ever and is pretty much union top-to-bottom. And you and your greasy pirate friends can't wait to see the next installment of whatever it is you watch.
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I think that question should be addressed to the RIAA and MPAA, no? That's been their MO from the beginning.
That's not what these other companies are doing. What they've done is improved *access* *distribution* *promotion* and *monetization* for anyone. Artists who embrace it find themselves better off. It's only troubling for the RIAA/MPAAs of the world who built their business model off of having a gatekeeper-level control over access, distribution, promotion and monetization. They're the ones profiting off of someone else's work.
Really: you need to stop blaming innovators for doing what your friends refuse to do themselves.
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You've conflated two completely separate issues; the implementation of the distribution service (i.e. the innovation) and the cost of the licensing. If internet distributorship is so easy when licensing isn't an issue, why have the content owners failed so spectacularly in offering their own services? After all, since they don't have to pay fees to themselves for the content (dodgy accounting practices aside...) and it's super easy to throw up a website, the money should just pour in shouldn't it?
"Those so-called "innovators" don't have a business at all were it not for the content of others that they're monetizing for their own profit."
Ugh, this old trope. It's a meaningless statement, which you could equally (and equally stupidly) apply to anybody selling anything made by someone else.
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This is generally a complaint of non-Americans whose countries have no meaningful creative output of its own. My response to this is that you are not entitled to US content. Maybe you should try some innovation of your own instead of your mindless obsession with American culture.
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We don't need any of that. You are the ones so disenchanted with your own lives and state of culture that you escape into American made entertainment. You claim to hate Americans yet you obsess over the latest Hollywood gossip, American television, movies, fashion and trends. Face it. Without this your lives would be even more pathetic and boring than they already are. Our culture is like crack for you. You are hooked and will do anything to get it. Pretty sad.
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Who did? When?
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Yeah, keep telling yourself that with your head buried deep in the sand, ignoring what's actually happening in the real world. Artist who don't freak out about not being able to lock down their works and instead make an effort to give fans what they want will go from strength to strength, while those with attitudes like yours will wither and fade.
"This is generally a complaint of non-Americans whose countries have no meaningful creative output of its own. My response to this is that you are not entitled to US content. Maybe you should try some innovation of your own instead of your mindless obsession with American culture."
Really, you're going to throw American exceptionalism into the mix now? Are you deliberately trying to come across as an asshole?
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Fine. What is the purpose of copyright again? Legitimizing temper tantrums when people aren't making as much money as they think they are entitled to?
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Like the entertainment industries want everyone else to pay to do their dirty work.
Just like the Entertainment industries are responsible for the Drug use of their employees.
Just like the Entertainment industries bribing government officials.
Just like the Entertainment industries crooked book keeping.
Just like the Entertainment industries constantly being caught infringing copyrights and not paying anything close to what they ask for when the public does it.
Just like the American Army being caught infringing copyrights and not paying for licenses and then only paying 25% when they are taken to court.
If we are going to follow the law to the letter, there are a couple of suggested starting places for you.
Or do you only want the law to apply to the little people?
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Just going to drop one link for you, because you're such a freetard with your head up Chris Dodd's cum-soaked rectum you can't see past the MPAA/RIAA's shortcomings. How's that "Home Taping is Killing Music" thing working out for you?
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BTW, I'm confused by your use of "freetard". What is that supposed to mean?
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You call me crazy, but it is you who is living in a deluded fantasy world.
Where are all of your citations? You have made some mighty bold claims, yet have not backed up a single part of it.
Shall I post a link to where the MPAA claimed that the loss from Piracy was more than the Entertainment industry has made since it inception. 7.5 Trillion dollars.
Why is that the studios always settle their court cases before their shady accounting practices can be brought into the spotlight?
Ask David Prowse how he feels about Empire Strikes Back still not making a profit, yet has grossed over half a BILLION dollars
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Darth Vader was not a pivotal part of the movie?
Have you even seen Empire Strikes Back?
Where is his share of the profits?
Oh, that is right $18 Million to make the movie, grossed over $500 Million dollars, yet still has not made a profit?
So from that, no one has the right to cry about copyright infringement as they have already received their wage..
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Prowse#Darth_Vader
Prowse claims his contract for Return of the Jedi included a share of profits on the film, and although it grossed $475 million on a $32 million budget, Prowse explained in an interview in 2009 that he has never received residuals for his performance. Due to "Hollywood accounting", the actual profits are sent as "distribution fees" to the studio, leaving nothing to distribute to others.
Not exactly a new story...
http://www.slashfilm.com/lucasfilm-tells-darth-vader-that-return-of-the-jedi-hasnt-made-a-pr ofit/
http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2009/04/lucasfilm-still-not-paying-vader-actor
http://www.filmbuffon line.com/FBOLNewsreel/wordpress/tag/david-prowse/
Are we all clueless about Hollywood accounting too?
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A guy that is hired to hide his face and not say any lines is not going to be promised "a share of the profits". As mentioned above, if he was owed anything, SAG would have taken care of it long ago.
This BS story is easily one of the lamest freetard memes on the net.
But pirates like Mike Masnick enjoying spreading it around because he hates actors and musicians and wants the monetary fruits of their labor to go to his bosses at Google.
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Here's a gem from an interview with him:
Q: Are you a good tipper?
A: No, I'm not. I don't think you should have to tip, to be perfectly honest
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Wow, and you accuse Mike of hating actors. How does the cognitive dissonance not make your head explode? With that sort of disrespect for costumed actors it's no wonder you post anonymously.
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Selected filmography:
Casino Royale (1967)
Hammerhead (1968)
The Horror of Frankenstein (1970)
Up the Chastity Belt (1971)
Carry On Henry (1971)
A Clockwork Orange (1971)
Vampire Circus (1972)
Black Snake (1973)
Frankenstein and the Monster from Hell (1974)
Callan (1974)
Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope (1977)
Jabberwocky (1977)
The People That Time Forgot (1977)
Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
Star Wars Episode VI: The Return of the Jedi (1983)
Saving Star Wars (2004)
Ravedactyl: Project Evolution (2005); short film
Perfect Woman (2006)
The Kindness of Strangers (2010)
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Copyright cocksuckers just hate it when due process is enforced.
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No wonder you have to shove in laws via international bribery after you insult them.
You copyright fanboys are such entitled tards.
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Seriously? I don't think even industry insiders would be so bold as to deny any of those claims. There's nothing particularly controversial or surprising there. Just par-for-the-course movie and music biz antics that make their protestations about "immoral" piracy such a joke.
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Sort of like the entertainment industries using the internet without paying for it.
WTF does this mean? Like they go to Starbucks to get free wifi?
Like the entertainment industries want everyone else to pay to do their dirty work.
Oh, you mean they ask that the law be enforced or that other companies not facilitate the theft of their product?
Just like the Entertainment industries are responsible for the Drug use of their employees.
WTF, are you serious? Is your employer responsible for you being a demented asshole?
Just like the Entertainment industries bribing government officials.
Who, what, when where?
Just like the Entertainment industries crooked book keeping.
We have a system of laws and accounting in the US. While people might find the exploitation of loopholes distasteful, it's hardly limited to the entertainment industry. You should see how Google juggles its books to attribute profits to foreign subsidiaries while writing off its global R&D expense on its US taxes.
Just like the Entertainment industries constantly being caught infringing copyrights and not paying anything close to what they ask for when the public does it.
I'm sure you have an example but all civil suits are subject to different outcomes and settlements. A lot depends on how good your lawyers are and how hard you want to fight.
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If if a popular innovation is breaking the law, then it's probably a bad law. And in case you've missed it, based on their actions it seems the general public believes that's the case.
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I agree. We're not talking about that kind of "innovation", though.
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Wait...
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The more I read...
I would say movies worth copying, but they did that years ago.
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I told you this would happen. You all we so smug after SOPA got derailed and now you're getting SOPA'ed without any of the judicial protections and additional goodies like six strikes (whatever happened to that parade of horribles anyway, Masnick) and other industry driven measures that you nor the courts have jack shit to say about. Congratulations on your victory!! Oh, I've heard that TPP's latest IP chapter will have a few additional aspects that may give you some heartburn as well. Merry Christmas!!!
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So maybe you can explain to the class how those aren't effective judicial protections.
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Yeah, great fucking protections..
You are aware that the world does not start and stop at the American borders?
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The Supreme Court ruling was that iiNet is not responsible for the actions of its users, so you scum are trying to have our laws modified. Sore losers, bad losers and losers overall who can't win without bribing politicians.
It is too late, your fucktard American parasitic entertainment bribers have already got their hooks into our politicians.
When are you going to start paying your fair share of property tax, you freeloading scum?
Ahh, that is right, it is only property when it suits you, like it is a sale or a license when it suits you.
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Copyright cocksuckers just hate it when due process is enforced.
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