NSA Officials Hate Ed Snowden With A Passion
from the yes,-emotional-response-is-what-we-need dept
Last week we wrote about Steven Levy's big article concerning the impact on the tech industry of the NSA's activities. This week, he's written a short piece about the two hours he got to spend at Fort Meade in the NSA's headquarters meeting with some of the NSA's top officials there. He explains how they didn't seem to want to cooperate at first, but then became much more accommodating later on. He notes that the NSA doesn't seem to recognize that "protecting" Americans and "breaking everyone's crypto" might be two goals that are at odds with one another. But, the main point he makes: NSA officials really, really, really seem to hate Ed Snowden's guts:They really hate Snowden. The NSA is clearly, madly, deeply furious at the man whose actions triggered the biggest crisis in its history. Even while contending they welcome the debate that now engages the nation, they say that they hate the way it was triggered. The NSA has an admittedly insular culture — the officials described it as almost like a family.... NSA officials are infuriated that all this havoc was caused by some random contractor. They suggest that had Snowden been familiar with the culture and the ethos of the agency, understood the level of training undergone by its employees, seen the level of regulations and oversight, he would have been less likely to abscond with all those documents. (Snowden’s interviews indicate otherwise.) Still, they are stunned that someone “inside the fence” would do what Snowden did. Even if Snowden is eventually pardoned, he’d do well to steer clear of Fort Meade.There's something kind of funny about the fact that they look down on him as being "some random contractor" and if only he'd really been a part of the "NSA family" that he'd "understand." That seems quite unlikely, but also suggests one of the many reasons why what the NSA is doing is so problematic. Any mission that involves people having to feel a "part of the group" to make sure that the surveillance isn't abused is a system that will be abused.
Even more troubling, is that the NSA still seems to be reacting emotionally to the whole thing. That's part of the reason they still seem unable to comprehend how much damage they've done -- not Snowden.
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Filed Under: ed snowden, emotion, keith alexander, nsa, rick ledgett, steven levy, surveillance
Reader Comments
The First Word
“Re: who is reacting emotionally?
How about saving some outrage for when a sentient being spies on you, as opposed to some program that generates so much data it's like being outraged someone could find a sand grain in the Sahara and potentially link it back to being once stuck to your shoe? What are they going to do with that? Persecute you?Look up J. Edgar Hoover or Richard Nixon sometime to see what could happen if one of them had access to this information.
If I find all the faux outrage exasperating it's because I know what it's like to live in a real surveillance state as opposed to an imagined one. Chinese cops were wielding cameras in my private apartment last August. No warrant of course. That, my friends, is violating my privacy. Maybe one day you'll get off your high horse and understand what a real violation is.
Gods, you remind me of someone who lived in Korea for awhile and went "it's not as bad as other countries have it, so just suck it up."
How about a giant FUCK NO?!
I do NOT want to live in a country where the government can just SPY on you for whatever reason and if someone in law enforcement decides they don't like you, they can have you thrown into jail! It happens all the time and THAT'S why I get so mad about people, much like yourself, who are WILLING to ignore the SACRIFICES that your forefathers made to protect peace and security!
You and others like you who just go "what can we do" have given up!
It's people like you who make the sacrifices that Dr. King, Rosa Parks, Lucy Stone and others who fought for equality for all races, genders and identities in this country worthless.
All because you have this attitude of "it's not so bad" or "what can one person do" or even "you shouldn't complain".
You, sir or madam, make me sick. Doubly so since you LIVED in China, according to your post and you KNOW what it could end up being!
Go talk to the Germans or the Polish people and ask THEM how they feel about government surveillance.
Or how about reading up on a former Stasi member views what the NSA is doing and his thoughts on it?
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130627/15455123642/
Don't go "oh, you don't know what it's like being in a real surveillance state, stop complaining".
By the time we GET to that stage we won't BE ABLE TO COMPLAIN!!
By protesting, calling our members in congress, speaking out and, yes, complaining, reporting on it, even if it gets exhausting, we can hopefully CHANGE the course before it's too late!
I would rather get tired of reading about this stuff than forget about it.
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Of course they hate Snowden...
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More importantly
They will work tirelessly toward this goal forever. It may even already be the agency's top priority above all else!
When they finally do something horrible to Mr. Snowden, they will feel justified and will publicly rationalize that their action protected the US from terrorists.
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Re: Of course they hate Snowden...
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The family is more important.
We all care for each other.
We are so betrayed.
This person wasn't a true believer.
Perhaps one should question the activities of these zealots with the same critical eye they turn towards "religious" leaders who keep their followers away from the world in secret compounds.
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Like the old adage
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."
Guess they were surprised they had something to hide.
Too bad it took someone with guts and ethics to show them otherwise.
It sucks to be them, doesn't it?
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Re: Re: Of course they hate Snowden...
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Ups, there was none.
Now, natural consequence is public debate.
Courtesy of folks who have their fingers on 5000 nukes, beside of your naughty pictures.
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Re:
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Re: Re: Re: Of course they hate Snowden...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course they hate Snowden...
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[shrug]
When normal family relationships are made impossible for people, people turn all their relationships into abnormal family ones.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course they hate Snowden...
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Once again, not news
Can we talk about something else now? Please? It's really depressing that I walk away from techdirt for a month because I'm bored of snowden, come back, and the first thing I see is another article about snowden.
The snowden situation is fucked up. It's not going to change. It's all horribly predictable at this point. The administration is just going to do what it's always done, for the past fiveish presidents. I'm bored. Let's find new things to be outraged about.
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who is reacting emotionally?
How about saving some outrage for when a sentient being spies on you, as opposed to some program that generates so much data it's like being outraged someone could find a sand grain in the Sahara and potentially link it back to being once stuck to your shoe? What are they going to do with that? Persecute you?
If I find all the faux outrage exasperating it's because I know what it's like to live in a real surveillance state as opposed to an imagined one. Chinese cops were wielding cameras in my private apartment last August. No warrant of course. That, my friends, is violating my privacy. Maybe one day you'll get off your high horse and understand what a real violation is.
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the family?
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Re: who is reacting emotionally?
Look up J. Edgar Hoover or Richard Nixon sometime to see what could happen if one of them had access to this information.
If I find all the faux outrage exasperating it's because I know what it's like to live in a real surveillance state as opposed to an imagined one. Chinese cops were wielding cameras in my private apartment last August. No warrant of course. That, my friends, is violating my privacy. Maybe one day you'll get off your high horse and understand what a real violation is.
Gods, you remind me of someone who lived in Korea for awhile and went "it's not as bad as other countries have it, so just suck it up."
How about a giant FUCK NO?!
I do NOT want to live in a country where the government can just SPY on you for whatever reason and if someone in law enforcement decides they don't like you, they can have you thrown into jail! It happens all the time and THAT'S why I get so mad about people, much like yourself, who are WILLING to ignore the SACRIFICES that your forefathers made to protect peace and security!
You and others like you who just go "what can we do" have given up!
It's people like you who make the sacrifices that Dr. King, Rosa Parks, Lucy Stone and others who fought for equality for all races, genders and identities in this country worthless.
All because you have this attitude of "it's not so bad" or "what can one person do" or even "you shouldn't complain".
You, sir or madam, make me sick. Doubly so since you LIVED in China, according to your post and you KNOW what it could end up being!
Go talk to the Germans or the Polish people and ask THEM how they feel about government surveillance.
Or how about reading up on a former Stasi member views what the NSA is doing and his thoughts on it?
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130627/15455123642/
Don't go "oh, you don't know what it's like being in a real surveillance state, stop complaining".
By the time we GET to that stage we won't BE ABLE TO COMPLAIN!!
By protesting, calling our members in congress, speaking out and, yes, complaining, reporting on it, even if it gets exhausting, we can hopefully CHANGE the course before it's too late!
I would rather get tired of reading about this stuff than forget about it.
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Once again, not news: uncensored and seconded, in general.
Once again, TechDirt astounds me with an almost newsworthy lack of news. Yeah, we know they hate snowden. They drove him out of the fucking country. If he gets back into the USA he will probably be put away for treason. This is bad. The US government is being evil. Please stay in Russia for your own horribly ironic freedom.
Can we talk about something else now? Please? It's really depressing that I walk away from techdirt for a month because I'm bored of snowden, come back, and the first thing I see is another article about snowden.
The snowden situation is fucked up. It's not going to change. It's all horribly predictable at this point. The administration is just going to do what it's always done, for the past fiveish presidents. I'm bored. Let's find new things to be outraged about.
While ^that may be part of the official "Snowden is over" brigade, it's also true that "The Prick" is an optimist for hoping this site will improve.
Hey kids: if you don't want to be seen as censoring opinion, it's real simple: don't click "report" when comments are within common law!
09:12:32[k-145-5]
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Re: who is reacting emotionally?
The NSA was also massively compromising and intercepting the communications networks between server locations at major internet companies.
The NSA was compromising crypto systems that people and businesses depend upon for security.
The NSA has massively undermined trust in US internet companies doing untold economic damage to the US. Make no mistake on this point, it was the NSA, not Snowden who did the damage. It was inevitable that this would come out at some point. The NSA should have considered what would happen to the trust in US based companies WHEN not IF this information came out.
I could go on, but my point is that there is much more that the NSA was doing. And there is plenty to be genuinely outraged about -- and yes I am a patriotic US citizen.
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I was hoping we would have a forward thinking president not only pardon Snowden in the future but also put him in charge of the entire NSA, should it continue to exist.
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Re: who is reacting emotionally?
While we still have the right to complain and put pressure on our government to avert the course of surveillance, if we do not do so, then we will soon find ourselves in the situation you describe. Being better than the worst possible outcome is not a significant reason to stop striving for improvement.
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Re: Once again, not news: uncensored and seconded, in general.
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Re: who is reacting emotionally?
You'd think someone with as much police state experience as you would know better.
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Re: Once again, not news: uncensored and seconded, in general.
Hey troll: if you don't want to be seen as an idiot who should be reported, it's real simple:
* don't use phrases like "hey kids"
* stop calling people pirates who do not engage in copyright infringement
* if this site distresses you so much, as is apparent from every one of your posts, then start your own blog to get your opinion out! Yes, really! I'm sure people will flock to it in mass. Or not. And if not, maybe you should reflect on that.
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Re: More importantly
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Re: Once again, not news: uncensored and seconded, in general.
It WILL improve once you've left it.
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Re:
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Re: who is reacting emotionally?
Interesting you should mention that, given the fact that as Jan 01 2014, most of the available light bulbs must now be registered with the FCC.
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Re: Re: More importantly
What you get is 1 patriot and a bunch of scum.
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Their Emotional IQ is almost zero.
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Teenagers
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It's all about self-image: We are The Good Guys
One's self-image rarely matches up 100% with reality.
Much more dangerously, if you are sure about the moral "rightness" of your cause, you are easily tempted to do things that outsiders would consider wrong, or even evil.
When Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler woke up each morning, they did not ask themselves what evil works they could perform that day, but rather strove to do good (as they saw it). Pol Pot labored to transform his nation into a socialist utopia that would guarantee the greatest good for the greatest number. That this would result in the extermination of a couple million men, women, and children was a sacrifice he was willing to make in furtherance of that good.
Many people today are willing/eager to sacrifice the inalienable rights of the people, the Constitution, and their own oath to uphold it in order to
(as they see it) gain some potential advantage in protecting the people, and their own asses/reputations (if there is ever a future terrorist attack that they might have discovered).
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Re: Re: Re: More importantly
i understand that subverting the constitution is the new normal; but we've got to put our foot down somewhere, might as well be here...
2. IF the spooks fail to see why the 99% of us are pissed at the shenanigans of the NSA/etc, then they are the WRONG kinds of people to be in those fiduciary (UNACCOUNTABLE!) positions...
3. the other sickening aspect is, snowden is one of a million frankensteins (albeit a 'good' frankensteen, in this case) THEY HAVE CREATED: THEY spend -what? 40-50%? of their budgets on 'private' kontractors used to skirt, bend, and break laws and strictures that would apply to the gummint itself...
no, those pukes use 'private' kontractors as a means of evading accountability and responsibility, then cry foul when the inevitable happens: 'secret' shit spread so far and wide and out of control, it is a near certainty it will 'escape' into the wild...
i believe that is called 'comeuppance'...
in this case, just comeuppance, indeed...
I AM EDWARD SNOWDEN! ! !
(and chelsea manning, and kiriakou, and browning, et al...)
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Re: Re: Re: More importantly
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still.....
The NSA is composed of tens of thousands of Americans, each of which has a Top Secret security clearance, and who (mostly) take their obligation to protect the intellectual property of the United States very seriously.
Thousands of NSA employees certainly have access to everything Snowden did, and probably more. These people would certainly see Snowden's actions as betrayal of the trust that they are keeping, and as treason against the United States.
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The whole thing has the tone of the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar when he wasn't supposed to have one before supper trying to justify his actions. If lying and misdirection are acceptable justifications what makes you think it just stops there because they say it does? You already have had more than enough demonstrations about what they say are facts only within days to be revealed as total lies to know you can't trust anything they say... as in nothing.
So how many cops, judges, prosecutors, mayors, and political figures are actually being "encouraged" to act in some way they see as beneficial through this data gathering on everyone? They won't even say the top political figures in Congress are exempt. Nor apparently are top political leaders of other countries who hold diplomatic immunity. What of Bolivian President Evo Morales being denied airspace passage in countries that were not involved with the NSA and spying? This shows you how far they are willing to go and how much of international laws they are willing to break to get what they want.
Don't tell me blackmail is not a distinct possibility given these other events that show what they will do.
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Re: Re:
Well, Scientology has infiltrated the US Government in the past. And Scientology has been known to spy on their critics. Hmmm....
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Christ, that's some creepy-level emotion and hate.
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Had a thought...
Thank you.
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broken link
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2014/01/how-the-us-almost-killed-the-internet/%20target=
Drop the %20target= or add _blank
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Here is why I hate Snowden
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NSACare
No Opt-out (applies to all: Americans, [including Senators and Congressmen], Foreign Leaders, Foreigners and Aliens).
The terms of the NSACare 'insurance' policy are classified, if we tell you, we will have to .... you.
PS: We don't need a credit card number; we already have it, or if you are a US taxpayer we have you covered (sorry for the pun).
PPS: Just wait until Snowden reveals that all VISA and Mastercard data (worldwide) is already being slurped by NSA and friends.
First comment, please be gentle.
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Re: who is reacting emotionally?
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seems like yet another false claim by TD
It appears from the statements make (copy/paste the TD way), states clearly THEY HATE THE ACTIONS OF THIS PERSON, and not the person himself..
if the Ed Snowden releases have not made significant changes BY NOW, they WILL NEVER MAKE THOSE CHANGES.
Do you honestly think Snowden with lead the news FOREVER ???
He has one shot at making a difference, he failed, no difference was made, no amount of boosting by TD will change that, Snowden is last years news, the planet has moved on, its about time TD did the same.
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This means the NSA can't use the "National Security" banner to hide all that information from the public. It also means the public can now tell when the NSA is lying to their faces.
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Re: seems like yet another false claim by TD
You DO realize that even Watergate took more than one year, right? Nixon was in his sixth year when he was facing charges and quit.
Or how about what happened with Clinton when he was impeached? That took SEVERAL years.
Big changes don't happen in one weekend in politics, look how long it took the government to work out a deal for spending, they had to partially shut the government down.
He has one shot at making a difference, he failed, no difference was made
Uh huh, no difference was made, except that people are still talking about it, Congress is making moves, court cases are being heard up to the Supreme Court and, considering it's an Election Year, I wonder how that'll play out come November...
Also, the planet has NOT moved on.
The UN is making resolutions about spying, the E.U. Parliament is setting up for a video conference with Ed Snowden to testify to them about the spying, Brazil gave away a giant multibillion dollar contract to Sweden over an American company, other American companies are losing money due to NSA actions...
If anything, the world is going to use this for a long, long, LOOOOONG time.
After all, Iran is STILL a mite bit pissed at the U.S. for its actions in the 1950s and 1980s, Germany is STILL nervous about showing national pride or allowing any kind of surveillance state, the Polish people were the ones who drove ACTA's defeat and Russians loathe Boris Yeltson for causing the collapse of the Soviet Union and the fallout from that.
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not the person who trigged it,
where was the display of "mad, fury" ?? or is that just an assumption ?
clearly they don't have Snowden in particular, they hate how it was done, and the method of doing it. They probably don't have who he is, but what he did.
TD seems to imply all of the 10,000 or so people working for the NSA are immoral and doing that job for purposes other than protecting the country, do you honestly believe all these people are abusing the information.
Sure, with any large group there are the freaks, the bullies that join the military to continue to bully, the murderers who go to wars and murder.
The corrupt police there are always these problems, but that does not mean that you can label all people in those groups with the same brush.
and yes, even the NSA can have people who steal and have their own inflated opinions of what is right or not (even without all the information), and who feels he has a right to lie and steal passwords to form his own opinion, and label the entire NSA with that opinion.
There will also be people apart from that group who will use this sort of information to forward their own agenda's and biases.
So someone who hates everything Government for example will latch onto things like this, with the goal of placing everyone in that group appear to be like the rare one or two, to further their own hatreds (such as for the Government).
I would say most 'normal' people see this for exactly what it is.
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Re: Re: seems like yet another false claim by TD
Or how about what happened with Clinton when he was impeached? That took SEVERAL years."
why don't you explain why Clinton was impeached for us?
Watergate was way fast, when the information came out (was published) it was VERY quick.
Snowden's information was published long ago, no one cares anymore and no legal, it is clearly not the same.
Re-learn your history.
also on 9/11 US politics changed in an instant, and forever.
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Re: Re: Re: seems like yet another false claim by TD
No, not actually.
"The affair began with the arrest of five men for breaking and entering into the Democratic National Committee (DNC) headquarters at the Watergate complex on June 17, 1972."
"The scandal eventually led to the resignation of Republican Richard Nixon, the President of the United States, on August 9, 1974."
source
Also worth noting: Nixon resigned to avoid impeachment. Had he not the whole affair would have gone on MUCH longer.
Re-learn your history.
Clearly you're in no position to say that to anyone
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Re:
You are an NSA employee right?
ANYONE who subverts the constitution is a TRAITOR.
Yes, that means you and anyone else who thinks that they are above the law and can invade my privacy
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Re: Re: Re: seems like yet another false claim by TD
And look at how fucked up things have gotten since then.
Maybe you're willing to just go "oh, nothing's changed by now" and give up.
Did Women's Sufferage happen overnight?
Did the Civil Rights movement end in a few months?
How about the Vietnam protests?
Study up on YOUR history and realize that stuff can take WELL over a decade before something positive happens.
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Re: Re: Re: seems like yet another false claim by TD
Started in 1848.
Women would NOT get the right to vote for another 72 years.
Civil Rights?
1955 to 1968
Vietnam protests?
1964 to 1975
In light of that, Snowden's revelations are still pretty new.
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Fixing the problem
When a country does not respect international law, and commits untold crimes against humanity it's very wrong
When the truth and those who speak it are demonised, it's wrong. When the government serves corporations, that's very very wrong
It's time soldiers chose to, stand by government, or the people.
It's time police chose who they will protect and serve, some of us or all of us.
It's time the people stood up peacefully and moved forward, not just thousands but millions.
Then billions.
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Yup, Theys Mad.
They are. Google it. We hijacked Bolivian president Evo Morales we wanted Snowden so bad.
Secondly, the NSA spying on us and our allies and lying about it fits the dictionary definition of immoral. I don't feel like trying to explain the dynamics of individuals in a group. But, no one is making generalizations about every employee.
Maybe someone joins the NSA for good reasons and spys on Americans with pride and is blind to what happens as a result; They're still part of the problem.
Most of the rest of your rant is kind of incoherent so I can't really dissect it too much.
"and yes, even the NSA can have people who steal and have their own inflated opinions of what is right or not"
The point is that, the organization, the NSA is making up it's own rules and carrying them out. The people who are in charge are saying steal this information from our allies. That's not some rogue employees idea. This is a corporate memo type of thing where, together, the NSA is comprehensively trying to overstep whatever rules limit them.
I don't think I am "someone who hates everything Government", but I do feel like the NSA spying on friends and foes alike has been irresponsible. Like we spend a lot of time and work and money making the world less secure and also giving our friends and enemies a good reason to distrust us.
And 'normal' people, really? Please tell us what who's normal?
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Compare to CIA concerning Petraeus scandal
Nothing --
Is CIA head John Brennan silent on the Snowden affair?
Is this a turf war between secret gov. organizations?
Consider what happened to previous CIA director Petraeus, with the FBI splasing his personal business all over the place.
Is Petraeus ruling the CIA in exile?
Is the current head of the CIA, Brennan, just a figurehead?
Consider these old news articles:
"CIA director, John O. Brennan, starting a campaign against leaks after Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden incidents"
June 27, 2013
"Is Edward Snowden a Double agent?"
July 13, 2013
Are the conspiracy theorists right?
Something is just not adding up.
.
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Re: still.....
What if you were an employee of said NSA and found out that you were actually breaking your Constitutional oath "to defend the United States from all enemies, domestic and foreign," only to find you were the enemy? What if you were betraying your own country with your actions every single day by breaking the law? What about upholding the Constitution?
Doesn't feel right does it? Makes you mad, doesn't it? Upsets you? Embarrasses you to death? Brings out everyone and their brother from the woodwork saying you were not doing your best to protect this country.
That's why they're mad. They got caught doing it, and not being staunch defenders of their own oaths of office.
They can rightfully be called traitors.
They should look in the mirror for who's the criminal.
Snowden is at least honest. They weren't.
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Re: Re: who is reacting emotionally?
The illusion of freedom is not freedom.
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Re: the family?
These organisations just hide their crimes or are given a free ride by governments
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Re: Re: Re: Of course they hate Snowden...
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Re: Re: who is reacting emotionally?
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Of course they hate the snitch
Of course you hate him!
(Yesyes, it's of course a well-known phenomenon that you now see yourself as the victim, even if you were the one running an organized crime ring. It doesn't change the fact that YOU are the perpetrator, the criminal who did immeasureable damage to people and society).
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follow the money
No news story I have seen is tracing the important players here, like Mike McConnell, former NSA chief.
He was W's Director of Natl Intel -- Clapper's job -- and sold Bush on the future of cybersecurity. Mike shepherded in a series of public/private initiatives that moved a huge pork pie slice of military industrial complex dollars from open, auditable contracts in aerospace or even the love-to-hate Halliburton merc contracts to black line cybersecurity intel.
Then, he took the revolving door to become executive at Booz Allen Hamilton. By extension, a couple tiers up, he was Edward Snowden's boss.
We are at the point where (per USA Today) the black line budget is so huge that 0.5% of the American population has high clearances just to go to work. To get in the gate, or work in the mailroom.
When Al Gore, years ago, started his initiatives to track down waste and pork in MIC spending (the famous three figure USAF toilet seat) it apparently just made the MIC classify the toilet seats.
I am a fanatic for civil liberties. But civil liberties are, I predict, collateral damage here. When you hear someone say "They hate our freedoms," that person is likely ignorant or blowing smoke.
It's always about money, influence, and power in DC. But that doesn't make a nice 6th grade level three minute story on the news, and most Americans would rather think of the game of thrones as something only in barbaric fantasy fiction.
Frankly, I find the real life thing far more fascinating. You should too. If more geeks played this LARP, we might find politics less of a clusterfuck.
It's hard for those of us seeking adequate oversight, accountability, and upholding our Constitutional rights nonviolently with these asymmetrical odds. Damn good thing we're smarter. ;)
Standard disclaimer: haven't worked for Tor since 2007, but I like them bunches
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Re: who is reacting emotionally?
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Re: Re: who is reacting emotionally?
I'm sure he would be happy to have you, say, break both of his arms. After all, there exist people who would outright kill him, so losing an arm or two should be perfectly fine.
/s
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Re: Re: Once again, not news: uncensored and seconded, in general.
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Re: Re: Re: who is reacting emotionally?
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Re: Re:
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Re: Re: still.....
It doesn't make me mad at all, because I have a different opinion of it than you do. Look up the definition of treason sometime.
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Re: Re: Re: still.....
The only other reason for an angry reaction is too depressing for me to dwell on too much: that the culture within the NSA really is cult-like, and they're mad because he dissed the cult.
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Re: Re: Re: who is reacting emotionally?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: still.....
Nevertheless, it is illegal for a cleared person to reveal classified information as part of his job. Thousands of government employees follow the rules, and protect information which could harm national security if released.
Why should Snowden get a free pass for flagrantly violating the law? What if everyone who was cleared did it? Whether or not you think this would be a good thing, it is illegal.
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The military hates Snowden
The military (ANY military) is a dictatorship, and survives by an "us against them" mentality, where "them" is anyone not in the military.
They feel (deep down) that democracy is "weak" (as Hitler put it), and contemptible, and any "member of the family" who defects to democracy is "evil".
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Re:
That's a total red herring. Nobody is saying that all NSA employees are corrupt and abusive. Nobody is saying that all, most, or even any (outside of the documented incidents) are abusing this information.
What is being asserted is that the collection of the information itself is unconstitutional, or at least unamerican. That remains true even if that information is never abused at all.
That said, it's my personal opinion that people who continue to work for agencies or companies that are engaging in Very Bad Acts shouldn't be surprised if their sense of ethics is questioned. Lie down with dogs and all that.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: still.....
Snowden is certainly not getting a "free pass", and nobody is arguing that he didn't break the law. That's not in question.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: still.....
So was sitting in the wrong part of a bus with the 'wrong' color skin a couple of decades back.
Some rules and laws need to be challenged, and that will almost always involve breaking them first in order to bring the issue to light.
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Re: Re: Re: Once again, not news: uncensored and seconded, in general.
Everyone has a right to speak AND be heard. Call it due process, call it petitioning for redress, call it many things, but you need to recognize that there are other parts of the constitution
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Once again, not news: uncensored and seconded, in general.
Outside of those, there is no right to be heard. When I walk by people on the street, they have the right to speak their minds, but they don't have the right to make anybody listen to them.
And even then, the right to speak is not universal. You don't have the right to say anything you want in my own house. If you say the wrong thing, I can kick you out.
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Re: Re: who is reacting emotionally?
He & I (from the US) find all the "faux outrage", all of those shocked
& appalled appalled & shocked all over themselves to be really kinda amazing.
The NSA mandate has ALWAYS been to exceed its mandate
(Did you get that?)
like Cheney Bush did when they created the post 911 private contractor security in triplicate on steroids in addition to adding to the public intel
bureaucracy. You know, the "deficits don't matter" DoD & intel budgets.
Many ppl who weren't MIA since 2000 assumed the NSA was doing
what they always do. Even novelists like Margret Atwood as per her
NY Times article assumed so. Why is it so rare to say the obvious?
The NSA is recording? Well golly, who knew? What? They're out of,
like, control & everything? Even cartoonists like Tom Tomorrow...
from 1994, the NSA & your computer as launching platform.
https://lh3.ggpht.com/-g8kBDvnw7I8/UiyosmPpJfI/AAAAAAAAXK8/zaBsi9PU0rg/s1600/tom1994_1.JPG
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Re: Re: who is reacting emotionally? All of you
I am also tired of the
"faux outrage" for the following reason, the NSA mandate has
always been to exceed its mandate. IOW, I haven't been MIA
since 2000 when Cheney Bush established a post 911 private
contractor security in triplicate colossus & trillion dollar stimulus
to the Southern states of Maryland, Virginia as well as DC.
What did you think they were doing?
Not to mention adding to the publicly financed security bureaucracy.
(IOW, spend every dime and then yell austerity when out of office.)
Even novelists like Margret Atwood assumed the NSA would do what
they always do per her writing and recent NY Times article. She
assumed and many others knew or assumed the NSA was into EVERYTHING.
Including cartoonists like Tom Tomorrow below linked.
His 1994 cartoon - www as NSA launching platform. 1994? Ha!
I'm from the US and like the commenter from China
have experience with the nasty stuff and would NOT be surprised if
PRISM (started in 2007) was the very least of it. IOW, things on the
level of MKUltra that Ted Kennedy and Frank Church exposed in the
1970's and were called "traitors" by conservatives of both parties
for the simple reason that the right dominated the culture and whose
influence, thankfully, was peaking. The CIA doing "shocking" things to
US citizens domestically. Imagine that? Now it's probably outsourced
to the private contractor corporate complex.
https://lh3.ggpht.com/-g8kBDvnw7I8/UiyosmPpJfI/AAAAAAAAXK8/zaBsi9PU0rg/s1600/tom1994_1.JPG
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Re: Re: who is reacting emotionally?
reality, which you are too reactionary to accept. Your comment is T-
Party paranoia personified.
When MKUltra was finally exposed by Kennedy & Sen. Frank Church
in 1977 they were called "traitors". Ppl like you were shocked that the
CIA was torturing US citizens (isn't that against the law and such)
even though the evidence was destroyed after Watergate by the
CIA director. Those who were MIA since 2002 when Cheney Bush
initiated a private contractor (free market) security in triplicate
bureaucracy are still shocked the NSA IS RECORDING. GOLLY
WOW.
As mentioned previously, the NSA mandate is to exceed
their mandate. That is the reality the commenter from China was
trying to remind you of. That reality is made personal in China.
Over here we kicked out the Dick Cheney's and most recently
his daughter (never count that one out) but all the GOP has to
do is rebrand themselves Tea Party to get over. PRISM STARTED
WHEN? 2007? Well thank you Ed Snowden for concentrating
the attention on that fact.
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THE NSA IS ACTUALLY LISTENING?
is for cowards, our mandate is to exceed our mandate. Well I
disagree. The sickos at the NRA and their private contractor
androids need to be restrained. And the FISA court that does
the restraining? 10 out of 11 are Republicans appointed by
Chief Justice Roberts...you know...the guy who had to be led
through the Presidential swearing in ceremony by Mr & Mrs Obama
b/c he forgot how to do it in the most viewed event in history.
A proud conservative.
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