Chicago Cops Being Sued After Being Caught On Tape Physically And Verbally Abusing A Massage Parlor Employee

from the always-a-shame-when-the-'wrong'-evidence-surfaces dept

Tue, Jun 10th 2014 12:29am — Tim Cushing

A Chicago woman is suing the city, along with ten police officers, for the abuse she was subjected to during a raid of the massage parlor she worked at. The entire interaction (which lasted more than 40 minutes) was caught on tape by the business' camera system.

Here's the beginning of the raid, which shows Chicago's finest interacting with Jianqing Klyzek using a combination of physical force and verbal abuse.

Here's the charming stuff Officer Di Pasquale had to say to Klyzek during their brief conversation.

Defendant DI PASQUALE: You're not fucking American! I'll put you in a UPS box and send you back to wherever the fuck you came from!

Plaintiff: I'm a citizen, OK?

Defendant DI PASQUALE: No you're not! No, you're not a citizen! No, you're not! No, you're not! You're here on our borrowed time. So mind your fucking business before I shut this whole fucking place down. And I'll take this place and then whoever owns it will fucking kill you because they don't care about you, OK? I'll take this building. You'll be dead and your family will be dead.

Note that this follows Officer Messina asking for permission to tase the 5'2" Klyzek "ten fucking times."

Also note -- especially those of you who claim bad cops are anomalies and not representative of the entire force -- that not a single officer (the plain-clothed men lined up against the counter impassively watching a small Asian woman being berated and manhandled by two "uniformed" cops) tried to dial back the aggression or suggested that some of things being said weren't appropriate or helpful. If anyone wants to know why there are so many bad cops, this is part of the problem -- the tacit approval offered by better cops who let this sort of thing happen without intervening.

Not only did these cops not try to defuse a situation that had gotten ridiculously out of hand, but they also assisted Di Pasquale and Messina in their search for the recording device in order to remove the evidence of their misconduct. Unfortunately for them, the device stored recordings off site. (Apparently, this fruitless search made up a large part of the 40-minute "raid.")

Since the officers couldn't find any evidence of prostitution (or human-sized shipping boxes), they fell back on weak claims that Klyzek assaulted an officer by "biting and scratching" as they attempted to restrain her. That failed as well when the judge threw the case out at a preliminary hearing.

But these officers weren't done failing. From the lawsuit:

On information and belief, sometime after the preliminary hearing, one or more of Defendant OFFICERS, contacted an Assistant State's Attorney in order to pursue a Grand Jury indictment for the offense of Aggravated Battery of a Police Officer against Plaintiff.

Based on Officer Sako's (allegedly) false testimony, the grand jury indicted Klyzek for aggravated battery. This was swiftly reversed when her lawyer brought some actual evidence to the grand jury.

On January 13, 2014, after viewing the video recording of Plaintiff's arrest, the State's Attorney's Office dismissed the aggravated battery of a police officer charges against Plaintiff.

Months later, the Chicago PD has yet to arrive at the same conclusion, despite being in possession of the same recorded evidence.

Police spokesman Adam Collins released a statement saying the matter is being investigated by the Independent Police Review Authority and that "the alleged comments, if true, are reprehensible and completely intolerable in our police department."

"If true." So, an officer's word is good enough to secure a grand jury indictment, but a recording -- containing both audio and video -- clearly depicting the chain of events detailed in the lawsuit -- is still up for discussion. If the IPRA ever gets around to using its eyes and ears, maybe it will finally be able to unload Officers Messina and Di Pasquale, something it should have done a half-decade ago.

A separate federal lawsuit alleged that DiPasquale and Messina were among a group of vice squad officers accused of abusing an immigrant during a 2008 prostitution sting. In the 2009 suit, DiPasquale was accused of sticking a gun in one man's face and slamming him into the dashboard of his car, breaking his nose.

The man's attorney, Richard Dvorak, said Monday that the case was settled out of court for less than $100,000.

There's the other reason bad cops are prevalent. The legal system pays victims minimal amounts using taxpayers' money. And those costing the city money simply man a desk or get a few weeks off from work before being given back their badges, guns and, most importantly, power.

KlyzekComplaint (PDF)KlyzekComplaint (Text)

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Filed Under: chicago, intimidation, jianqing klyzek, police

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observer, 10 Jun 2014 @ 12:35am

Anyone else think it's suspicious...
... that the YouTube account that had the recording on has been terminated?
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 1:00am

Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
You can see part of it here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2633418/Video-shows-abusive-Chicago-police-threatening- deport-woman-UPS-box-f-came-from.html
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 1:02am

Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
It's standard operating procedure to threaten the victim into taking down the incriminating video, or file false DMCA claims. What I don't understand is how thugs can get away with obstruction of justice, perjury, felonious assault and battery with a deadly weapon, and filing false police reports. Yet these thugs are still permitted to retain their authority, allowing them to continue terrorizing the general public.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 1:08am

Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
Even worse, these thugs are the ones the government trusts with military weapons. Stalin would be proud, and FDR is spinning in his grave.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 1:12am

Interesting phrasing
"Defendant DI PASQUALE: No you're not! No, you're not a citizen! No, you're not! No, you're not! You're here on our borrowed time. So mind your fucking business before I shut this whole fucking place down. And I'll take this place and then whoever owns it will fucking kill you because they don't care about you, OK? I'll take this building. You'll be dead and your family will be dead."

Why isn't this sociopath under federal indictment for threatening an act of mass murder?

I thought we had some federal agencies somewhere who were kinda sorta tasked with maybe investigating threats of terrorism every now and then if they aren't too busy doing other things. Given that most of the time they're working off rumors and suggestions and hints, I'd think that a 40-minute recorded confession would be a lot more helpful. And since their mission is to defend Americans, why wouldn't they take an immediate and substantial interest in this? It's certainly a far more substantial threat (coming from a heavily-armed man who has already assaulted someone) than more of the ones we hear about.
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David, 10 Jun 2014 @ 1:42am

Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
The standard procedure is to actually give those officers a promotion for good conduct and excellence so that they appear as "decorated officers" before a jury, making their word count more or to make the "one-time slip" plea more plausible.
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Starke (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 1:45am

Re: Interesting phrasing
Because, when it's a cop threatening mass murder it's not a real charge, just like the cop last year in DC who was threatening to off the President.

If you or I did that, it would be a federal case, a literal federal case, but, because he's a Law Enforcement Officer with a history of mental illness, we know he's "just kidding."

Same thing here, we all know Pasquale didn't mean it, he's just, you know, "joking", or using "a legitimate 'interview' technique" to converse with the suspect.
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zub, 10 Jun 2014 @ 3:52am

If there was no recoding
Think of what would have happened had there been no recording (or were the policemen successful in destroying it)...
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That One Guy (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 4:05am

Re: If there was no recoding
Intensive-care hospitalization, if not body bags, and 'assaulting an officer with a deadly weapon' charges leveled against any survivors to shut them up.

Something along those lines I'd imagine.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 4:10am

Re: Re: If there was no recoding
I don't think you need to "imagine" it: it's already happened.

We just don't know when and were (usually) because cops destroy the evidence and prosecutors are disinterested in pursuing the cases. Anyone with a badge can torture, rape and kill with impunity AND THEY KNOW IT.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 4:20am

Re: Re: If there was no recoding
No need to imagine the charges seeing that they did try that after the grand jury indictment got dismissed.
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That One Guy (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 4:21am

Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
High-court/Low-court.

With very, very few exceptions, police always get high-court treatment, and their word is accepted as true even when evidence is presented that contradicts it.

This case is half-decent, in that at least the court dropped the charges against the victim, but given the thug with a badge remains employed, rather than rotting in a cell like he tried to make the victim suffer, I'd say the silver lining on the story is pretty small.
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andypandy, 10 Jun 2014 @ 4:35am

Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
went to this site and followed the links to other videos about cops assaulting innocent people.... with video proof. Seriously, why are the American people not rising up and resisting cops, all of them the good and the bad, they are all the same and this video actually proves good cops will not stop these atrocities when they occur, damn watch the one video where the cops refuse to accept and record an assault charge with witnesses, damn America you are going to have a huge uprising on your hands if this is allowed to happen over and over and over again.
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Michael, 10 Jun 2014 @ 4:35am

She pulls a knife, you pull a gun.
She scratches you during an arrest, you put her in a UPS box!
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Michael, 10 Jun 2014 @ 4:37am

Re: If there was no recoding
If there had been no recording, he would have put her into a UPS box and shipped her outside of the country.

At that point, the NSA would have intercepted the package and enclosed a recording device - problem solved!
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Spaceman Spiff (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 5:07am

Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
I guess these buttheads don't realize that the Internet forgets nothing! Not even if you issue a "forget me" notice to Google!
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Michael, 10 Jun 2014 @ 5:14am

Re: Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
why are the American people not rising up and resisting cops

You watched the videos, so you know what happens...
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 5:21am

Forget losing their jobs, if those fucking assholes don't get put in prison I'll lose all faith in this country.
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Michael, 10 Jun 2014 @ 5:53am

Re:
wooooosssshhhhh!

That was the sound of your faith being blown away.
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DannyB (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 6:07am

There are some good cops
Please remember that ninety percent of cops give the rest a bad name.
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zip, 10 Jun 2014 @ 6:09am

YouTube's horrendous takedown policy
I'm going to assume that one of the Chicago cops "caught on tape" - or someone else on the force - has sent YouTube a DMCA copyright takedown claim (or perhaps some other takedown reason).

This sort of thing seems to happen quite often. I was just watching (or trying to watch) YouTube videos showing Ukrainian soldiers shooting protesters in the streets of cities such as Sloviansk/Slavyansk. As many of these depicted shockingly graphic violence, I expected a lot of missing (taken down) videos, as was standard practice during the Iraq occupation. Sure enough, many of these 'war crime' videos from Ukraine were gone, and uploaders' accounts suspended/revoked.

I would have hoped that by now, it would be more widely known that videos posted on YouTube that show anything "controversial" tend to get taken down very quickly, and the uploaders banned. This has been the case throughout YouTube's entire existence (though oddly enough, the now-shuttered Google Video always had a much saner takedown policy, despite being owned by the same company as Youtube).

Regarding Youtube alternatives: I don't know the current favorites, but the LiveLeak.com video site had a reputation of allowing the type of war videos that the US military would probably not have wanted the public to ever see, and RuTube.ru became a favorite of the anti-Scientology community, who were desperately in search of a DMCA-free haven. And Speaking of Scientology, one of the major protesters, Mark Bunker, said he had his worst-ever experience with police in Chicago (working off-duty for the Scientology cult) when he was brutally arrested, and had the videotape from his camera stolen that captured the whole thing. Although that incident happened back in the 1990s, it seems that "Chicago's Finest" are no different today.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 6:18am

Re:
"Forget losing their jobs, if those fucking assholes don't get put in prison I'll lose all faith in this country."

People forget an important aspect of the legal system: to discourage victims from taking the law into their own hands.

If they are not sufficiently punished it is left to us to mete out punishment.

Fiat Justitia, et Pereat Mundus.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 6:31am

timcushinghatescops.com
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Ed (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 6:32am

Re: There are some good cops
The 90% stand back and watch the 10% do this crap over and over and over, every day. Does that really make them "good cops"?
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 6:48am

"There's the other reason bad cops are prevalent."

Except of course, that they aren't. There's well over a million police officers in the US, and you furiously searching the web every day for bad behavior isn't going to make it the norm.

The only prevalent behavior we know for a fact exists is your persistent douchebaggery, displayed with incessant frequency on this ridiculous blog.
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Michael, 10 Jun 2014 @ 6:55am

Re: YouTube's horrendous takedown policy
The clip was not taken down by a DMCA request. The account was cancelled either voluntarily or by YouTube.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:00am

Re:
Yawn.
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John Fenderson (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:02am

Re:
They certainly are prevalent in my part of the country. There's no need search the web to find such instances -- they appear in the newspaper every single day.

Bad cop behavior is absolutely the norm around here. It's also the norm for the "good" cops to ignore the abusive behavior of the others. You can claim that this is only an insignificant percentage all you want, but reality disagrees with you.
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Michael, 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:05am

Re:
Prevalent: generally or widely accepted

I think it is the case that law enforcement abusing their power has become widely accepted. I live in a city and find that the local police officers, while having been helpful to me in the past, have a tendency to violate laws and their own rules of conduct.

While these cases of particularly egregious behaviors are certainly not the norm, the fact that they are not dealt with swiftly and harshly is very bad. Police officers are SUPPOSED to be held to a higher standard and yet we seem to be going in the other direction and forgiving bad behavior because their job is difficult and dangerous.

I believe being a police officer should be an honorable job and worthy of praise, but that feels less and less like it is the case and the good police officers (which I know there are many) should be the first ones stepping up and stopping/condemning this kind of behavior.

Having one bad officer screaming such things at a woman is one thing, but the fact that all of the other officers did nothing to stop him and possibly attempted to cover up the behavior is shameful and every one of them present should be fired for this single incident.
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Michael, 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:22am

Re: Re:
I started to survey my local police to find out how many of them were behaving poorly and also how many of them were simply ignoring bad behavior by others.

However, I had to stop because I kept getting pulled over, parking tickets when I was parked legally, stopped repeatedly and frisked for seemingly no reason, and repeatedly found my tail lights broken out with a ticket placed under my windshield wiper. Keeping up with all of this terrible luck made continuing my investigation difficult.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:22am

I wish I could say I'm surprised, but what do you expect from a group of people whom upon employment swear a sacred oath and then do everything within their power to violate the spirit of the oath while staying barely within the letter of the oath? Don't believe me? Next time you're pulled over for a routine traffic stop, take notice of the police officer's behavior. The first question you'll be asked is "Do you know why I pulled you over?". Why is that question being asked? The officer knows why he or she pulled you over. The reason for that question is an attempt to have you self incriminate yourself. Hmm. What about that 5th amendment. You'll see casual attempts to get you to forgo your various rights as a matter of course since those rights are inconvenient to the officers in question. And those casual violations are either performed or ignored by the entire police force. Cases like this one are egregious and noticed by the press, but violations of the Bill of Rights are routine and expected.
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Michael, 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:23am

Re: Re: There are some good cops
gooder?
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OldMugwump (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:32am

Re: Re: There are some good cops
Read DannyB's post again, more carefully.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:32am

Re: Re:
That guy should be tied up and soap-socked by his colleagues.
You know, like Gomer Pyle in Full Metal jacket...
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nasch (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:53am

Re: Re: Re:
Keeping up with all of this terrible luck made continuing my investigation difficult.

Sounds like you got your results - investigation complete.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 8:02am

Re:
average_joe just hates it when due process is enforced.
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limbodog (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 8:03am

Upsetting
What bothers me most about this isn't the crimes being committed by police, it's how completely unremarkable the watching officers are. This is not a new thing to them, this is just another day at the office.

The victim was extremely wise/fortunate that her evidence was transmitted off-site (seriously, everyone should do that), but how many people do you think aren't that fortunate?

Does anyone harbor any hope that all of the arrests from these criminal officers are going to be reviewed? (especially for 'missing' evidence)
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 8:07am

Re: YouTube's horrendous takedown policy
Check out LiveLeak for more interesting stuff than remains on YouTube, such as the video under discussion:
Woman Accuses Chicago Police Of Brutality In Raid Caught On Video
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Ms. Manners, 10 Jun 2014 @ 9:09am

Questioning the authority of Krazy Kops
When the crooks and psychos are in charge, what recourse is available to an honest citizen? Short answer: None.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 9:13am

Everyone that supports a ban on guns needs to watch these police abuse videos. If you think its bad now, just wait until no one has the ability to defend themselves. Do you really want these assholes in blue to be the only people allowed to carry firearms?
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nasch (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 9:36am

Re:
Everyone that supports a ban on guns needs to watch these police abuse videos. If you think its bad now, just wait until no one has the ability to defend themselves.

You think this would have turned out better for her if she had pulled a gun on the cops? She would be dead, and there would be no chance of any consequences for the police. This way, she's alive and well, not facing criminal charges any more, and there's at least a possibility the officers will be punished, and it's because of the video evidence, not violence. How would more guns have made this situation better?
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Violated (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 9:45am

Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
The core problem in the United States is that people tolerate failure in their public officials. This stems from the President downwards with like "I messed up but I am the one in charge here so suck it up".

I only hope this aspect is never exported to the United Kingdom when they are famed for firing those officials caught with their pants down. Even PM Cameron can be easily replaced by his own party should they simply believe that someone else can do the job better.

Even the UK Police are held to high regard. Those who show bad behaviour or fail to follow the rules get suspended or reprimanded while those seen to break the law are fired. They don't allow criminals on both sides of the law here for obvious reasons. So had this been the UK that officer would be fired without doubt when there are other people who can do his job better.

In a related fact UK Police shot dead 5 people in the last 4 years where each of these cases made major news headlines where many locals can name all 5 victims. Over in the USA Police officers shot dead 1600 people within this same time-frame. To adjust for population sizes then UK Police would have shot dead 25 people making US Police's 1600 fatality score as 6400% as deadly.

Sure though the USA will go on doing zero to fix these clear problems.
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Violated (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 9:51am

Re: Re: Interesting phrasing
In most sane countries threatening to murder someone is in fact a crime.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 10:00am

I am not getting it. What it have to do with tech?
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 10:05am

Re:
A cloud backup process was used with the camera system.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 10:07am

Re: Re:
Except for the fact that 90% do zero about the bad 10%. Not stopping the behavior is approval of the behavior.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 10:17am

Re: Re: There are some good cops
If you have a 55-gallon drum of sewage with a teaspoon of pure water in it, you have a 55-gallon drum of sewage.

If you have a 55-gallon drum of pure water with a teaspoon of sewage in it, you have a 55-gallon drum of sewage.

The extension of this metaphor to police departments is left as an exercise for the reader.
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Michael, 10 Jun 2014 @ 10:28am

Re: Re: Re: There are some good cops
That was a crappy comparison.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 10:31am

Re:
The assault on our rights is happening online and offline. We might as well get all the assault news in one place.

Also, Tim Cushing hates bad cops.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 10:44am

Re:
Sometimes its (Tech | Dirt), !(Tech & Dirt).
Though this story has a touch of tech, and plenty of dirt.
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AJ, 10 Jun 2014 @ 10:50am

Re: Re:
If nothing else, perhaps an armed people will give even the slightest pause to an abusive authority figure. If it does, then it's worth it.. Otherwise there are no "real" checks and balances.. just perceived ones that were allowed to believe we have.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 11:01am

While it is good you're trying to be more diverse in your publishing Cushing, the whole COPS ARE BAD RAWR!!!!!!!! thing is still getting old. You're turning the site into an anti cop anti administration site. At this point one article with the line "Cops are evil!" could sum your posts up for a month. Hopefully the next time you get caught speeding or jaywalking the cop is very polite or we'll hear all about it.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 11:17am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Sounds he made up his results.

FTFY
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 11:39am

Re: Re:
Any idea how much it costs these days (say 16 channels color medium definition)?
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 11:51am

Re: Re:
No I don't think it would have been better for her to have pulled out a gun on them. I think firearms should be an option of last resort. And I believe removing that option from us is a very bad idea. I still believe that we can still stop these abuses without violence but if things dont start changing soon we could easily spiral into another civil war. While no one can say for sure how close we are to this tipping point, history shows that once you reach it, things will get ugly. Civilization has made enormous advances over the last few decades, but we're still animals driven off the need for survival. and if you threaten that we will fight back.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 11:53am

Re:
I suggest that you run that experiment, PERSONALLY. You go right ahead and draw a gun on a group of heavily-armed, trained, violent, sociopathic assholes wearing badges.

By doing so you will not only be conducting valuable hands-on research into the efficacy of this tactic, but you'll be doing an extraordinary service to the species by removing yourself from the gene pool. Congratulations!
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Baron von Robber, 10 Jun 2014 @ 12:03pm

Re:
There was already a story about a cop who was nice and calmly explained why he arrested somebody, on video.

Unfortunately, that was a Canadian cop and not a American one.

And I bet Tim Cushing wrote that one.
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That One Guy (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 12:14pm

The head-in-the-sand approach: Not a very good way to solve problems
'So I was noticing a problem and-'
'Stop looking! If you just ignore it, and don't say anything, the problem will go away!'
'That... doesn't make any freakin' sense. Are you sure?'
'Yes, so stop saying anything, and stop noticing anything!'
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That One Guy (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 12:21pm

Re: Re:
There are a couple of articles along those lines(not too many, since there's not much to say when the system is working after all), but admitting that they exists rather gets in the way of the 'Tim Cushing hates cops!' line/dodge.

Canadian Cop Puts On An Impromptu Clinic On How To Deal With Critics And Cameras
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131212/15041325552/canadian-cop-puts-impromptu-clinic-how -to-deal-with-critics-cameras.shtml

A Little Humanity Goes A Long Way: School Admins, Police Officer Ditch Policy-Limited Thinking To Make A Difference In Teens' Lives
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140513/10013327221/little-humanity-goes-long-way-school-adm ins-police-officer-ditch-policy-limited-thinking-to-make-difference-teens-lives.shtml

And yes, he did write both of those.
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Michael, 10 Jun 2014 @ 12:24pm

Re: Re: Re:
ThatOneGuyHatesTimCushingHatesCops.com
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 12:26pm

Re:
sounds like your new to this country
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AJ, 10 Jun 2014 @ 12:26pm

Re: Re: Re:
I never said she should have pulled a gun out. I'm simply saying that if the possibility should exist that she "could" be carrying a firearm, that it would perhaps give the person attempting to trample her rights a reason to pause and think about what they are doing.

�An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.�

Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 12:58pm

Di Pasquale and Messina, sounds like dirty wetbacks to me. /s
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 12:59pm

Re: Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
sup Spiff
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 1:02pm

Re: Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
Actually even Stalin wouldn't like this either. There was no "Police" in the USSR and even early 90's russia, there were Militias made of regular people, the Army was the real security force at all times, and if militias weren't needed there were none.
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Zonker, 10 Jun 2014 @ 4:05pm

Re:
Well, Di Pasquale and Messina are Italian names, so they must be foreigners from Italy. Do we put them in a UPS box and send them back to Italy?
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JMT (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 5:42pm

Re:
So Mr. Policeman, do you think you're a good cop or a bad cop? And if you think you're a good cop, (a) what are you doing about the bad cops, and (b) why not a single word of criticism for the extraordinarily heinous cop behavior described in this story?
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JMT (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 5:46pm

Re:
I'm not getting it. Why did you read an article that obviously was going to have a low tech content?
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JMT (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 5:49pm

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These are very important stories that should be told and discussed widely, other wise this sort of thing will continue to happen and probably get worse. You're free to not read stories that are quite obviously about police misbehavior from the title. Your ignorance will be to your own detriment.
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John Fenderson (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:08pm

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"perhaps an armed people will give even the slightest pause to an abusive authority figure."

Very, very unlikely. What's more likely is that it will make abusive authority figures even more abusive and prone to using preemptive force.
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John Fenderson (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:12pm

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Heinlein was wrong about this. Seriously, take a look at civilizations throughout history. Unarmed societies are really only at a disadvantage when they meet armed societies. Internally, the worst you can say is that they are no less polite than armed ones.
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John Fenderson (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:13pm

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By "no less polite" I mean, of course, "no more polite". Erk.
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John Fenderson (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:17pm

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Depends on how much you want to do yourself. I set up a system with 8 channels, streaming to an offsite location, for a total cost of around a thousand bucks, but that was almost totally DIY. I also streamed to a different physical location that I owned, so I wasn't paying storage costs. To minimize data size, everything was rigged with motion detectors, so I didn't get endless hours of nothing.
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John Fenderson (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 7:28pm

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I should add that this was a number of years ago. Prices have come down (and quality gone up) quite a lot since then.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 9:33pm

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but... the possibility *did* exist that she could be carrying a firearm, because the gun laws allow it, and this was the result.

If anything, if gun laws prevented most people from carrying guns, then aggressive/defensive behaviour from officers trying to protect themselves from the possibility of being shot by a perp because they might be carrying a gun would stand out more. Which only makes a difference if the other officers involved are willing to do anything about the bad cop, but it's still a valid discussion point.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 9:34pm

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I'm not getting it. Why did you think they read the article before commenting?
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Jun 2014 @ 9:37pm

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Or to invert an idea from Bruce Schneier, once these stories are no longer news is when you have to really worry about them.
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nasch (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 10:17pm

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While it is good you're trying to be more diverse in your publishing Cushing, the whole COPS ARE BAD RAWR!!!!!!!! thing is still getting old.

You can just scroll past the stories you're not interested in reading. I doubt the writers have any illusions that every story will interest every reader.
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nasch (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 10:19pm

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If nothing else, perhaps an armed people will give even the slightest pause to an abusive authority figure.

The solution to abusive police is not more guns, it's holding the police accountable for their crimes. That is harder than just carrying around a Glock, but it has a much better chance of positive change.
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nasch (profile), 10 Jun 2014 @ 10:25pm

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If anything, if gun laws prevented most people from carrying guns, then aggressive/defensive behaviour from officers trying to protect themselves from the possibility of being shot by a perp because they might be carrying a gun would stand out more. Which only makes a difference if the other officers involved are willing to do anything about the bad cop, but it's still a valid discussion point.

And a good one. If there were little to no chance of a subject having a dangerous weapon (I'm not saying we should do that, just for discussion), the cops' excuse that they have to shoot/beat/tase people to protect themselves just couldn't hold up. At the other extreme, if it were highly likely any random person is carrying a weapon, then any twitchy or suspicious move (reaching for a tissue or a cell phone) might be cause to draw down or even start shooting. I just don't think the argument that more citizens with guns would result in less police violence holds water.
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AJ, 11 Jun 2014 @ 5:28am

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"If anything, if gun laws prevented most people from carrying guns, then aggressive/defensive behaviour from officers trying to protect themselves from the possibility of being shot by a perp because they might be carrying a gun would stand out more."

I think it stands out fine even without removing the guns.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140531/12595127425/six-officers-charged-police-pursuit-that-ende d-with-137-shots-being-fired-suspects-little-over-20-seconds.shtml

I've been stopped while open carrying, and I've been stopped without. The experience was significantly different each time. I may have been unlucky, but it's all the experience I have to draw from...

/Rant

The police have no responsibility to protect the public, and will not be held responsible when they fail to do so. We are all responsible for our own safety. I will not place my family's safety into the hands of someone that has no obligation to protect them. If we can change that, then I would gladly hand over my guns... but good luck with that, there are over 10 major court cases that state that the police are not responsible for protecting you. In essence, the police are about retribution, arresting people after the fact. With that in mind, it's easy to see how they get power crazed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0

/rant
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2014 @ 6:05am

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> parking tickets when I was parked legally
> found my tail lights broken out with a ticket placed under my windshield wiper

Sounds like the type of situation that hidden cameras were made for.
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AJ, 11 Jun 2014 @ 6:17am

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I don't think that's what he's trying to say. I think he's saying that after looking at all the stories regarding police over reacting and abuse now, that if you removed all the guns from the citizens hands, it would be much much worse. If you combine a unarmed populace with the fact that the supreme court has consistently stated the police have no obligation to protect you, you would have a mess.

Just for the record.. I don't think all cops are bad. They've got a very difficult job no doubt.
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John Fenderson (profile), 11 Jun 2014 @ 8:27am

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Oh, he's very interested in these articles. His interest is trying to make sure that nobody can read about abusive police.
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Robert, 11 Jun 2014 @ 9:39am

Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
It's Chicago! What are you thinking. Maybe if Rahm Emanuel can put aside all his other problems in Chicago he can address the police problems.
Things will not change until the settlements come out of their pension funds. The problem with Chicago is that there is not enough money in their pension to pay for all the lawsuits.
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Robert, 11 Jun 2014 @ 9:39am

Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
It's Chicago! What are you thinking. Maybe if Rahm Emanuel can put aside all his other problems in Chicago he can address the police problems.
Things will not change until the settlements come out of their pension funds. The problem with Chicago is that there is not enough money in their pension to pay for all the lawsuits.
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nasch (profile), 11 Jun 2014 @ 10:10am

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The police have no responsibility to protect the public, and will not be held responsible when they fail to do so.

I'd be satisfied if they were held responsible for actively harming the public.
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nasch (profile), 11 Jun 2014 @ 10:13am

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I think he's saying that after looking at all the stories regarding police over reacting and abuse now, that if you removed all the guns from the citizens hands, it would be much much worse.

For that claim to be true, that would mean there are lots of cases where cops would like to beat someone up or tase them or what have you, but they're afraid to because they think the person might have a concealed weapon and they don't want to get into a gun fight. Sounds pretty implausible to me.
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Zonker, 11 Jun 2014 @ 10:38am

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Unarmed societies are really only at a disadvantage when they meet armed societies.
Like for example, Egypt and its recent election 97% to 3% of the heavily armed military commander protesters had hoped to remove from power after the last leader got removed from office. Or in Thailand where they are facing a heavily armed military coup of their government. Or in Syria, Lybia, etc.

What is the first thing the protesters/people in these countries as for in assistance when facing their own government/military cracking down and taking over their lives? Weapons. (I personally do not like guns, but fully appreciate the right and importance to bear them in protection of home and country from all threats foreign and domestic.)
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Jack, 11 Jun 2014 @ 11:22am

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Nearly ALL of the police abuse stories I read are not about people being shot for having a gun. Yes, occasionally they do have a gun - but the vast majority of the time they are carrying a knife, screwdriver, pipe, broom, etc.

The vast majority of no-knock drug raids are against unarmed people - even though the supposed reason for no-knock late night raids is to surprise an armed defender. For those who are truly dangerous and actually armed, they almost never use these tactics.

If not a single non-LEO person had a gun, I doubt police killings would be any lower. Knives are much more deadly within about a 20 foot circle anyway - so would you suggest we ban knives too?
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Robert, 11 Jun 2014 @ 12:00pm

Re: Re: Re: Anyone else think it's suspicious...
It's Chicago! What are you thinking. Maybe if Rahm Emanuel can put aside all his other problems in Chicago he can address the police problems.
Things will not change until the settlements come out of their pension funds. The problem with Chicago is that there is not enough money in their pension to pay for all the lawsuits.
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Robert, 11 Jun 2014 @ 12:05pm

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The good 90% can be targeted for retribution as well. Where have you been
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Res, 11 Jun 2014 @ 12:14pm

Threat of civilian packing heat
The bad cops have never planted a weapon on anyone,yes?
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AJ, 11 Jun 2014 @ 12:14pm

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I absolutely disagree. I think it's the threat of a "gun fight" that would and does give them pause... self preservation is a powerful instinct, you can't train it out of someone. If someone pisses a cop off, the cop may react violently.. you would hope they would not, but humans are emotional creatures.. it's bound to happen. So when it does, if there is a chance that the person he's reacting to COULD have a gun, he may think twice about his next move.

It's risk assessment, we do it in everything we do realizing it or not. You can deny it, but it's happening.
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AJ, 11 Jun 2014 @ 12:17pm

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Agreed. You gotta start somewhere!
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nasch (profile), 11 Jun 2014 @ 12:29pm

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If not a single non-LEO person had a gun, I doubt police killings would be any lower.

The contention is that if more people carried guns, the abuse would be less, and IMO anyway that has not been demonstrated at all.

Knives are much more deadly within about a 20 foot circle anyway - so would you suggest we ban knives too?

I never suggested we ban anything.
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nasch (profile), 11 Jun 2014 @ 12:32pm

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So when it does, if there is a chance that the person he's reacting to COULD have a gun, he may think twice about his next move.

That's true now. Any person COULD have a gun, so the police are thinking twice about their next move, right? So what would change if MORE people had guns? They would think three times? And I'm pretty sure cops (particularly urban cops) aren't assuming the people they're interacting with are not armed.
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AJ, 11 Jun 2014 @ 1:51pm

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"That's true now. Any person COULD have a gun, so the police are thinking twice about their next move, right?"

I'd agree with that.

"So what would change if MORE people had guns?"

Probably nothing, but I'm not advocating that anything would change if MORE people had guns, I'm saying that if NO ONE were allowed to have guns, THEN you WOULD see a behavioral change with how the police treat citizens.

"And I'm pretty sure cops (particularly urban cops) aren't assuming the people they're interacting with are not armed."

And again we agree, However, what would be the common assumption on their part if no-one were allowed to have guns? Would their behavior get better or worse? I believe it's worse.. i believe it's human nature that without the threat of violence, humans will always abuse power to some degree. It's sucks, but it's part of what makes us human lol.
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nasch (profile), 11 Jun 2014 @ 2:26pm

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I'm saying that if NO ONE were allowed to have guns, THEN you WOULD see a behavioral change with how the police treat citizens.

It's obviously not a simple question. In countries without a lot of guns, you don't see so much police brutality. Then again, those aren't US police, brought up in a pro-gun culture and accustomed to the idea their lives could be threatened at any time. I don't think it's really clear at all what would happen if that change were made in the US.

i believe it's human nature that without the threat of violence, humans will always abuse power to some degree.

I think you could shorten that. It's human nature to abuse power to some degree.
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AJ, 11 Jun 2014 @ 2:47pm

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"The contention is that if more people carried guns, the abuse would be less, and IMO anyway that has not been demonstrated at all."

My contention is not that if MORE people had guns, the abuse would be less... not at all.. My contention is that if NO ONE had guns except the police, there would be MORE abuse.
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nasch (profile), 11 Jun 2014 @ 3:14pm

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My contention is not that if MORE people had guns, the abuse would be less... not at all.

That isn't what you meant by this? "I'm simply saying that if the possibility should exist that she "could" be carrying a firearm, that it would perhaps give the person attempting to trample her rights a reason to pause and think about what they are doing."
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AJ, 11 Jun 2014 @ 4:23pm

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Nope. Sure isn't what I meant.

I said that if the possibility existed that she COULD...COULD.....COULD C O U L D own a gun.. not omg lets pass out guns to every ass hat with a trigger finger.

Let me put this in perspective. If I was hungry, and I mean really hungry, and you had a nice big McArteryclogging super burger, and i was twice your size... nobody's around.. i would probably beat the break shoes off you and take your tasty burger if i could..... ahhh .. but if you had a dirty hairy style hand bazooka strapped to your leg john homes style I would probably think twice.... If that doesn't make since to you let's just agree to disagree ok?
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nasch (profile), 11 Jun 2014 @ 8:45pm

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Nope. Sure isn't what I meant. I said that if the possibility existed that she COULD...COULD.....COULD C O U L D own a gun..

OK, the use of a subjunctive to describe something that is actually true threw me off.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Jun 2014 @ 8:45am

AAAAAAAND the video is gone. Use dailymotion.com
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Jun 2014 @ 2:07pm

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Any cop that ignores the bad behavior of another cop is, by definition, a bad cop. Thus, any force with a single bad cop that never gets a real punishment or fired is FILLED with bad cops.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Mar 2020 @ 7:55pm

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This truth was censored.
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