Rogers, Hayden Claim Release Of CIA Torture Report Will Be The Tipping Point For Enemies Of The US

from the you-know,-rather-than-everything-else-we've-done-to-piss-them-off dept

Mon, Dec 8th 2014 11:38am — Tim Cushing

The NSA's many, many surveillance programs. The TSA's security theater. "See something, say something." The DHS and its "Fusion Centers," in which First Amendment-protected activity is viewed as inherently suspicious. The distribution of armored vehicles and high-powered weapons to law enforcement agencies. The FBI's constantly expanding investigative scope and powers. The NYPD's "Demographics Unit." These are all things we do because of terrorism.

Those who believe the threat of terrorism can justify nearly anything are now claiming the threat of terrorism justifies NOT doing something. Daniel Drezner rounds up quotes from current and former officials who believe that the safety of our nation now hinges on not releasing the long-delayed "Torture Report." Joining John Kerry in his statement that the release could have negative effects on "foreign policy" are a host of familiar names, starting with House Intelligence Committee head Mike Rogers.

"I think this is a terrible idea," Rogers said. "Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths. . . . Foreign leaders have approached the government and said, 'You do this, this will cause violence and deaths.' Our own intelligence community has assessed that this will cause violence and deaths."

Michael Hayden, former director of the CIA, echoes Rogers' concerns.

"...[T]his will be used by our enemies to motivate people to attack Americans and American facilities overseas."

As Drezner points out, the narrative these men are pushing makes no sense. According to Hayden, Rogers and (to a lesser extent) Kerry, the release of this report will be the tipping point for our enemies, rather than two lengthy, unending military efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan… or years of drone strikes… the United States' constant support of Israel… the revelations of torture occurring at Abu Ghraib…

According to this narrative, terrorists will be more outraged by a damning Senate report than by the previous decade-plus of actions in response to the 9/11 attacks.

I'm sorry, but this is just nuts. There is no shortage of US foreign policy actions and inactions in the region to inflame enemies. The Senate report is small potatoes compared to that.

The release of the report could actually be a net win for the US. Its reputation has taken several hits over the past year, and exposing its flaws to the world -- in hopes of preventing this behavior from repeating itself -- will show our allies, and our enemies, that the nation is stronger than its weakest moments. Delaying the release of the report, or rendering it meaningless via over-redaction, won't send the same message. Instead, it will confirm our enemies' (and allies') worst suspicions: that the US government cares more about maintaining a facade than actually making an effort to rebuild its damaged reputation. Doing what Kerry, Rogers and Hayden suggest -- bury the report until whenever (and at what point will we not have enemies?) -- could actually provide more motivation to terrorists than being open, honest and contrite about the CIA's actions.

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Filed Under: cia, foreign policy, john kerry, michael hayden, mike rogers, surveillance, terrorists, torture, torture report

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alternative(), 8 Dec 2014 @ 11:44am

Yea, THAT report release will be the tipping point
Because instead of some people stepping up, saying something like the "the buck stops here" and being a basis for reform there will be no demonstrated change.

The lack of change or shift in policy outcomes is where the anger will be from.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 11:46am

Then we just have to assume the worst
If it is so horrible that we can't talk about it, then we must assume it is worse than our wildest imaginations.

We should then proceed to prosecute everyone in the chain of command under the assumption that they have, by their own admission, committed the most horrible violations of human rights.
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Michael, 8 Dec 2014 @ 11:46am

"...[T]his will be used by our enemies to motivate people to attack Americans and American facilities overseas."

Protip: If exposing your actions will motivate people to become your enemies, you are probably doing something wrong.
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John Fenderson (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 11:48am

The parallel with Snowden
Once again, we're being told that reporting the abuses of the US government is what causes harm. Not a single thought is given to the fact that it's the existence of the abuses that are causing the harm, and to blame the harm on disclosure is very much just shooting the messenger.

Hey Rogers and Hayden: if you're so worried about blowback, then why are you not so worried about the things that actually cause the blowback?
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Anonymous Hero, 8 Dec 2014 @ 11:50am

> "I think this is a terrible idea," Rogers said. "Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths. . . . Foreign leaders have approached the government and said, 'You do this, this will cause violence and deaths.' Our own intelligence community has assessed that this will cause violence and deaths."

It may cause violence and deaths, but at least it won't cause torture.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 11:53am

What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 11:55am

Can someone explain how a report on torture is going to be worse for the US than the world already knowing the US commits acts of torture?
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 11:59am

Reasons not to torture!
It does not work.
If you do it to your enemies, then they will do it to you.
It hurts.
It's messy.
It needs to be hidden.
It cannot be hidden.
It will come back to bite you as above, and then years later when the people you work for (not your bosses, your employers, you know, the taxpayers) find out about it.
Then, knowing all of that, coming up with excuses to do it, and then more excuses to hide it, and then more excuses to excuse the perpetrators, and then excuses for your excuses (no one ever said government employees had imagination).

Makes one really wonder what they thought the original upside was.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:00pm

Because admitting how badly we screwed this all up, will totally make them want to bomb & murder us more.

They are already committed to our destruction without this report, filling in the blanks with their own imaginings... so the facts are so horrible they will hate us more?

Perhaps saving face is the real motivation behind trying to stop this. That the American public will see what was done in their names and rightfully ask which assholes approved this and where do I sign to remove them from power.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:01pm

If doing something bad might get you in trouble...maybe you shouldn't do it?

I think even a three year old knows that by now.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:02pm

"I think this is a terrible idea," Rogers said. "Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths. . . . Foreign leaders have approached the government and said, 'You do this, this will cause violence and deaths.' Our own intelligence community has assessed that this will cause violence and deaths."

You know what would've prevented this altogether?
Not torturing people in the first place.

Ooops. My bad - I meant not using "enhanced interrogation techniques."
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TruthHurts (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:05pm

CIA / NSA and foreign intelligence = a bunch of morons...
Releasing this report will not CAUSE anything.

It's the fact that you idiots committed war crimes to begin with that will cause deaths and mayhem.

Everyone involved with these war crimes should be shot so that the rest of us can live knowing these criminals (who are no better than the Nazis were during WWII) are dead and gone.
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Chris Brand, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:06pm

This actually tells you what the government has planned
If you were to release the report and simultaneously charge the various high-ups who actually instigated the torture program, you'd show the world that you actually know you made a mistake, have learned from it, and won't do it again. That would be celebrated by those same people.

The fact that your government is scared of people's reaction to the report shows that they have no intention of acting on it.
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dfed (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:08pm

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about, right?
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:08pm

The government has been lying about everything for so long that they see the truth as a detriment to how they operate. Therefor, any sort of truth is a threat to national security and by proxy their own security.
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Coyne Tibbets (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:30pm

Has the right of it
You know, I think he has the right of it. If we publish this, our enemies will all shout in unison, "See?! We knew you were kidding when you said torture was bad!!"

Realistically, this argument is getting sillier and sillier. All they're doing now is stretching it day by day, trying to wear out the people who want it published. They have an infinite list of excuses they will drag out one-by-one, forever.

I still will be surprised if it is ever published in a usable form.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:32pm

Everyone knows what these three lettered agencies are doing, But somehow these guys are afraid of cementing the facts living up to the mistakes they've made ,it's like they're more afraid of the lawyers , because concrete evidence can bury them , actually seems they don't care if we know, because without proof or a paper trail nothing can be done to them they continue to walk around like proud peacocks spewing lies and propaganda.
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orbitalinsertion (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:32pm

Rogers, Hayden Claim Release Of CIA Torture Report Will Be The Tipping Point For Enemies Of The US

Maybe, for our internal enemies. Possibly just an occasional sacrificial lamb. But I wouldn't really count on anything more than business as usual.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:33pm

Re: The parallel with Snowden
Because they don't care about piffling little things like basic decency.
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the threat to peace is the USA, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:37pm

WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did

makes us all wonder how far you tipped to that hitler guy and mengela
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mcinsand, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:47pm

follow-up is critical
If we release the report and do nothing, we do make ourselves more of a target. However, if we want to actually be 'the good guys' and build trust, we can make a good start by releasing the report and prosecute those that were responsible for any abuses. That is how we establish that we mean what we say when we support our Constitution and oppose human rights violations.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:48pm

Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
Well as far as I know we aren't as bad as Hitler. Give it another 10 years.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:50pm

Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
Other nations that are much older than ours invented this(not just nazis and the ss), our leaders were just to stupid to pay attention to history to realize what the fallout brings and the damage to the people caught up in it's web.
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David, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:52pm

What's the point?
"I think this is a terrible idea," Rogers said. "Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths.

Does he insinuate that the U.S. is supposed to be against violence and deaths now? That's good since we can reduce a lot of military spending then. People will be happy to hear that Rogers stands for scrapping all predator drones and telling the CIA that violence and deaths (like those caused by torture or assassination programs) are a bad idea and they are not heros and patriots for committing them.

If the U.S. is prepared to abolish all violence and death originating from its soil, not getting to see the torture report seems like a good deal.

I somehow doubt that this is Roger's plan, though. My suspicion is that he is making a pitch for the Nobel prize in hypocrisy, a category that really deserves to get a prize of its own as it is watering down the others more and more.
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Anonymous Hero, 8 Dec 2014 @ 12:54pm

Re: Reasons not to torture!
> Makes one really wonder what they thought the original upside was.

Torture of innocent people is the only way Dick Cheney can maintain an erection.
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TruthHurts (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 1:03pm

FBI can capture more fake terrorists...
They can look for some mentally unstable people, suggest to them that perhaps they should kill Rogers and Hayden, develop the entire plan, provide the weapons and whatnot, then, when they are just about to implement, swoop down in the nick of time and arrest the mentally handicapped victims of the FBI's malignant campaign.

Or, maybe, just maybe, they could arrest the real traitors that committed the heinous war crimes, those that new about them and didn't act on that knowledge, and those that heard about the acts and didn't act on it.

Yes, I admit that might mean they have to arrest half the U.S. Government and 99% of the alphabet soup agencies in this Country, but then the criminals would be gone and our Country would be safer.
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techflaws (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 1:12pm

"Torture Report."

Why the quotes?
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 1:12pm

If you're not doing anything wrong, what do you have to hide?
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art guerrilla (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 1:41pm

Re: Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
no need: OUR body count is actually higher than hitler's at this point...
unfortunately, too many sheeple do NOT know the sordid side of our continuing oppression of brown people the world over, WE -you know, 'the good guys'- are directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of MANY MILLIONS...
hell, that's just in the phillipines/indonesia...
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 1:52pm

If you think mass-torturing people will get you MANY MORE ENEMIES then DON'T F-KING TORTURE people!

Simples, no?!
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 1:53pm

With history of making predictions that are *always* wrong, we can now rest assured of what won't happen if the report is released. ;)
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 1:54pm

the question would be: are Americans willing to turn their country into a place where they have no rights and only those at the op have all the power and privledges, and in return they will be safe from everything be it physical, mental or psychological pain as their every action will be rigidly controlled.

Would Americans rather live in a dictatorship tyranny or a free country.

I prefer being free even if that means free to starve
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 1:59pm

If that's the case...
"...[T]his will be used by our enemies to motivate people to attack Americans and American facilities overseas."

Then we deserve what we receive - and the blood is on the hands of those who allowed the torture to occur in the first place.

How can this "logic" be so difficult to understand - clearly the people making these statements failed at basic logic.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 2:02pm

Was it at any time ever considered that this torture was a violation of the Geneva Convention? Did it ever occur that this is the same thing that the Nazi's were gone after under War Crimes? This government has allowed the violation of treaties we were signatures to saying we would not do this and yet it was done.

Plain and simple we have war criminals in our government, now scared that their actions will be shown to be what they are and they could and should be called up before World Court to be held accountable for those crimes.

No damn wonder we're making more enemies. You have innocents locked up in Guantanamo, because you offered a bounty but did not bother to check that those being turned in were actually guilty of something. We've sent hellfire missiles into wedding parties and funerals but not killed the target, instead killing a lot of innocents, and then claimed they were terrorists. Nothing like bolstering the enemy resistance and encouraging people to join because their innocent relatives just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is still going on. You sure aren't winning hearts and minds over mistargetting just who should be killed.

And then come up with a BS excuse that it would be a tipping point? Please get some better material writers because those you are using for media points are failing seriously. This isn't even decent propaganda when any average citizen can see just what BS this is.

I am sadly disillusioned over the direction the US government has taken. This country I don't recognize as the country I put my ass on the line for in the military. You and all your cohorts have lost the support of the American people and until you make an accounting of it, it is not going to get better or magically change.
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Jimb, 8 Dec 2014 @ 2:03pm

The torture programs have caused violence and death.
The torture programs have caused violence and death.

Stop torturing and killing people that you have in custody. Those that did belong in jail. Those that support it deserve to be tried for crimes against humanity.
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DSchneider (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 2:07pm

Sad Thing
The sad thing is, there were probably people who said similar things BEFORE we started torturing people. Yet we went ahead and did it anyway.
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Rapnel (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 2:16pm

Accountability, without it we are nothing but a field to lay waste by enforcers and protectors.

Accountability has been conveniently removed from the equation that is government.
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John Fenderson (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 2:21pm

Re: Sad Thing
Not probably. Absolutely. When Bush effectively legalized torture, tons of people spoke loudly and clearly that it's a bad thing to do not only because it's one of the most immoral things you can do, but because it's a terrible strategy: it gains you nothing but gives your enemies something to rally about.
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gorehound (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 2:23pm

Remember when these lying sack of shit Politicians argued over whether waterboarding was torture.
They truly pissed me off greatly.My Dad was a member of the Jewish Underground in Budapest and he is a Holocaust Survivor.
He was tortured by the Hungarian Nyilas and German Gestapo and one of the things done was to make pretend they were drowning him AKA WATERBOARDING.

http://www.bigmeathammer.com/aushwitz.htm
Kratz Family Holocaust Memorial of Carpathian and N.Romanian Jewry.
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Chris Brand, 8 Dec 2014 @ 2:34pm

Re:
Ah but they don't think that. They think mass-torturing people is just fine as long as nobody finds out about it. Thus it's the report that's the problem, not what it's reporting on.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 2:35pm

Applying this logic to criminal cases...
[ In chambers, without the jury present. ]
Defence lawyer: "Your Honour, I move to suppress all evidence the prosecutor intends to offer in this case."
Judge: "Was the evidence obtained unlawfully?"
Defence: "No, your honour."
Judge: "Is the evidence irrelevant to the case?"
Defence: "No, your honour."
Judge: "Is the evidence fabricated or in any way misleading?"
Defence: "No, your honour."
Judge: "Then why should it be suppressed?"
Defence: "It would give the jury the impression my client is guilty, your honour."
Judge: "You want me to suppress truthful and accurate evidence that your client is guilty, because it would lead the jury to believe that your client is guilty?"
Defence: "Yes, your honour. My client is absolutely guilty of all charges filed, and is concerned that disclosing detailed evidence of his guilt may lead the jury to see him in an unfavourable light."
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Uriel-238 (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 2:53pm

These people that tell us that the report needs to be concealed...
Are they really meaning to imply that what heinous thing that has been done (in this case torture) is okay so long as the breadth of the program remains obfuscated?

Is there any other reason for which we as a nation should not show outright contrition? We're talk about the torture program of the United States government and military.

The enemies of the US have good cause to fear and hate us and wish upon us ill will. And the allies of the US and neutral parties have good cause to distance from the US and become its enemies.

We have become the Galactic Empire. We have become Mordor. Opacity at this hour only allows everyone to assume the worst, that it is as many unforeseen revelations, that acts done in the name of the United States have been worse than we imagined they could be.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 3:11pm

Re:
you forgot to mention the double tap policy of drone missiles targeting first responders to missile attacks. Purposely targeting police, medical emergency staff, firemen etc. Just because they are trying to help out victims of drone strikes they must be terrorists.

meanwhile the real terrorists are those controlling the drones
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 3:13pm

Re: These people that tell us that the report needs to be concealed...
you are becoming Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 3:25pm

Re: follow-up is critical
We've already been warned not to get "sanctimonious" about torturing folks, so I'm pretty sure prosecution is so far off the table that it's in a whole other zip-code.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 3:37pm

Re:
Probably because an accurate name isn't really very inspiring:

Enhanced Interrogation Executive Summary Redacto-Pamphlet
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Rapnel (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 3:43pm

Re: Re: These people that tell us that the report needs to be concealed...
The very instant at which it was decided that terrorism will be countered with military might, technology and life was the same instant that overt actions to extend empire became a trite relic of history.

The very instant that the leader of the free world authorized military technology to be deliberately and directly deployed against all civilian targets was the very same instant that the free world became another trite relic of history.

Welcome to the New World Order covertly brought to you by: ????
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 3:48pm

Re: Re: These people that tell us that the report needs to be concealed...
A hundred years from now, I fully expect a country that's slipping into the totalitarian abyss to be described as "becoming 21st Century America."
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 4:44pm

Re: Re: follow-up is critical
Another zip-code? It is more likely that it will be the World Court that does something about this. Our politicians have no moral compass that will let them do the right thing, and voting will have no impact as a big part of the issue is bureaucrats, not elected persons.

There is a big difference in doing things right vs doing the right thing, at times.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 4:58pm

If you do something in secret, and then when people find out what you did they then want to kill you, perhaps you should stop doing it.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 5:27pm

I could have sworn I heard laughing coming form the bottom of the Indian Ocean. Must just be my imagination.
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Votre (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 5:40pm

What's going to be even funnier is the US response to the warrants that are bound to be issued by the International Court for war crimes and "crimes against humanity."

At the very least they'll ruin Dick Cheney's whole day. And that can only be a good thing even though nobody of any importance will ever stand trial as long as the US government can do anything to prevent it.

And it can, unfortunately.
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That One Guy (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 5:56pm

Re: Re:
That isn't 'sad but true', that's 'revolting but true'.

They probably see absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with torturing people, but exposing the fact that the US engages in and supports torture? Oh you better believe they think that's a problem that needs to be dealt with.
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David, 8 Dec 2014 @ 6:00pm

Re: follow-up is critical
However, if we want to actually be 'the good guys' and build trust, we can make a good start by releasing the report and prosecute those that were responsible for any abuses. That is how we establish that we mean what we say when we support our Constitution and oppose human rights violations.

Prosecute our patriotic heroic Dr Mengeles? You must be kidding. We already established that this is not in the national interest, that's why we do not even want pseudonyms in the published report that would make it possible to figure out who the real fiends of humanity are in our ranks.

We promised them carte blanche for crimes against humanity, and we imprudently made people frown on the Nuremberg defense: if we had not just pulled over Wernher von Braun for NASA but also Freisler for the Department of Justice, Mengele for the CIA and Göring as Secretary of State, we would have beat the Russians to the first torture camp on the moon.

A small clubbing for a blackie, but a large thrashing for the sake of white superiority.

Uh yeah. Follow-up is critical. Sorry for getting carried away. It's hard not to get excited when one sees the U.S. rising to its potential.
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nasch (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 8:38pm

Re:
Was it at any time ever considered that this torture was a violation of the Geneva Convention?

They got lawyers to tell them it was all legal.
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That One Guy (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 8:50pm

Re: Applying this logic to criminal cases...
This better make at least Editor's Choice, you absolutely nailed it here. 'We want the evidence hidden not because it's untrue, but because it makes us look bad.'
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2014 @ 9:01pm

There's no justification for torture!
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JonRob (profile), 8 Dec 2014 @ 11:11pm

For our own good
Reasons not to release:

They've turned it into a script and can't disclose the contents until Rob Zombie agrees to direct it as the third film in the House of 1,000 Corpses franchise. Negotiations might have stalled because Rob needed a vomit bucket during the initial reading.

Contains missing pages from the Necronomicon and they had to give it to Bruce Campbell for safekeeping.

If we knew the kinds of acts they performed in our names around the world, they would be forced to kill a great many of us to quell the revolution.
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David, 9 Dec 2014 @ 2:05am

Re:
Was it at any time ever considered that this torture was a violation of the Geneva Convention?

Sure. It's not an accident that the U.S. does not accept the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice in The Hague.
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David, 9 Dec 2014 @ 2:11am

Re:
The U.S. does not accept the jurisdiction of the International Court for crimes against humanity as that could seriously interfere with government and administration.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2014 @ 5:15am

Re:
Careful when making such unqualified statements. Even a nanosecond of consideration can give rise to scenarios where such interrogation methods become almost a moral imperative. Sometimes in life you hold your nose and do what you know is not kosher because the failure to secure time critical information is not an option for persons with a conscience and strong sense of humanity.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2014 @ 5:19am

Yes, release the report so that it can be used as yet another tool to recruit the nutjobs intent upon getting their fair share of virgins in the after life.
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David, 9 Dec 2014 @ 6:49am

Re:
The government is more afraid of the consequences the report might have in the U.S. rather than abroad. If anything like an impression of accountability grew from it, however mistaken, it could seriously impact the attractivity of government jobs for psychopaths, sadists and mercenary killers and consequently affect the government's ability to recruit the top crop of syndicated criminals.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2014 @ 7:00am

Yes, once they officially admit that they are doing this a lot more people will see the US as what it really is.
Since everyone who doesnt bend over and praise the flag is a terrorist, this report will create millions of new terrorists.
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tqk (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 7:03am

Re: Has the right of it
I still will be surprised if it is ever published in a usable form.

The really wierd thing about this? This is just the for public viewing sanitized version of the real, ten times longer, report. Yet that level of obfuscation isn't enough for them.

I'm thinking Nuremburg level stuff now, and they're making it worse with their every word. I'm feeling very sorry for the USA public right now. What a dark chapter those bastards led you into.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2014 @ 7:15am

Re: Reasons not to torture!
I am against torture..

But this line is bullshit!

"If you do it to your enemies, then they will do it to you."

People that are okay with torture are going to torture your ass regardless of whether or not you torture them. America has a bad habit of "reasoning" this shit away regardless of which side you are on... its the same damn logic process that says abortion is okay! Fucked up Logic!

Left or Right... there is lot of cognitive dissonance to go around!
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tqk (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 7:17am

Re: Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
Well as far as I know we aren't as bad as Hitler.

They're going all the way to the wall to keep you believing that. From that, I have to assume it's even worse than Hitler.

We'll have to retire Godwin. Apparently, we have a new low now: 21st Century USA.

I offer my deepest condolences. This is a very sad day.
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tqk (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 7:26am

Re: Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
Other nations that are much older than ours invented this (not just nazis and the ss) ...

Very true. Many royal palace dungeons spent centuries refining the craft of torture. Waterboarding is fairly benign by those standards.

There was a US president once who is now revered partly because he stepped up and took responsibility for his actions: "I cannot tell a lie ...". It's possibly apochryphal, but I guess we can retire that completely now.
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Jeff_Davis (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 7:29am

Re: FBI can capture more fake terrorists...
I'm a bit disappointed in most of the commentators. With the exception of TruthHurts, they have all been side-tracked -- as intended -- by the Hayden/Rogers remarks. Side-tracked into explaining the seemingly obvious illogic of those remarks. Of course, those remarks are stupid. Stupid on their face, .....but SMART in their intent, which TruthHurts jumps past to get to the heart of the matter: HAYDEN AND ROGERS ARE AMONG "THE PRINCIPALS", THE CENTRAL, CURRENTLY UNINDICTED, *****USG***** WAR CRIMINALS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE US WAR CRIMES OF THE LAST 13 YEARS, AND SHOULD BE IN CUSTODY AND AWAITING TRIAL FOR THOSE CRIMES.

This crap about bad juju from the release of the torture report is just the smokescreen by Hayden/Rogers et al to avoid a report that exposes their criminality to the light of day.
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tqk (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 7:35am

Re: Re: follow-up is critical
Sorry for getting carried away.

I didn't think that. After all, we're watching as a crime is being committed before our eyes. These idiots think this is a game of face saving reputation salvage.
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Jeff_Davis (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 8:02am

Re: Re: Applying this logic to criminal cases...
Thank you, and thank the anonymous -- sadly -- poster of "Applying this logic to criminal cases...".

Nailed it indeed.
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Paul Keating (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 8:03am

What planet do they live on????
two Comments:

"Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths. . . . Foreign leaders have approached the government and said, 'You do this, this will cause violence and deaths.' Our own intelligence community has assessed that this will cause violence and deaths."

There is no shortage of US foreign policy actions and inactions in the region to inflame enemies.

WHERE were the brains when the underlying actions were hatched?

In other words, it is not what you did but telling your parents about it that causes the problems? On what planet did these people get their education?
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tqk (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 8:10am

Re: If that's the case...
This's very reminiscent of the Pentagon Papers episode. The US military was committing war crimes and genocide, but gawd forbid The People be told what was happening in their name.

How many more times must this lesson be learned?
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Mmickk (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 9:14am

prove its not torture!
I have long held the idea that those so eager to use "enhanced interrogation" methods ought to be willing to prove that it is not torture and is truly an effective tool to trustworthy information by willingly allowing themselves to undergo the process, publicly, for a set period of time. Just a week or maybe a month. And then stick to their claims that this is somehow not inhumane.
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John Fenderson (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 10:11am

Re: prove its not torture!
"by willingly allowing themselves to undergo the process, publicly, for a set period of time."

That wouldn't count at all. A huge part of what makes something torture is that there is no time limit for it and you have to say in whether or not it happens. If those two things are missing, then it's not a comparable activity.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 11:09am

We've justified the nutjobs
At the point that we decided that it's okay to torture some folks, we became exactly the sort of enemy at which you throw your nutjob suicide units.

The Houri-craving nutjobs are incidental. They're units of desperation in an asymmetrical theater. And whatever notions that they are told of the US to indoctrinate them for battle, the things we actually do are much, much worse.

The US has actually become the demon they are sent to fight.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 11:22am

Torturing pundits and representatives
Although I agree with you, I still find it enjoyable schadenfreude to see pundits and representatives agree to be subject to waterboarding and then discover how terrifying and horrible an experience, even with the option to call it or opt out.
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Go fuck off, 9 Dec 2014 @ 11:23am

The treasonous bastards
CNN is only too happy to start blabbing the details of the report to Amrica's enemies.

The treasonous bastards
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2014 @ 12:25pm

Re: Re: Re:
Torture isn't torture if it's not revealed in a Report. Your privacy can't be violated unless someone tells you about it. Police can't be abusive if there's never a trial.

The big, obvious analogy finally dawned on me: ever play Peek-a-Boo with an infant? Magic hands made Mommy disappear!
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2014 @ 12:45pm

Re:
Dick Cheney cannot have his day ruined. He cannot be broken, for his will is strong and his beliefs are pure. Just when you think he is yours he will escape, Brazil style, into a fantasy world of starving orphans and vivisected puppies, where The Batman always loses.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2014 @ 1:01pm

Re: Re:
A conscience and strong sense of humanity should go along with a sense of sacrifice. Very specific, rare, and isolated situations might very well put a person in a position of using torture as the last available method of preventing a tragedy.

In these cases the torturer isn't just sacrificing his subject's humanity or rights, he's also sacrificing his own. Did the torture miraculously work and save lives? Even if it did, the act still needs to be condemned, and those involved still must be punished.

If you're going to take a bullet to protect a friend, you don't get to tell the world to stop while you look for a bullet-proof vest.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2014 @ 1:16pm

Re: What planet do they live on????
Cardassia Prime.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2014 @ 1:21pm

Re: The treasonous bastards
Damn them! If not for CNN, no one would ever have known!
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Uriel-238 (profile), 9 Dec 2014 @ 4:46pm

Re: Re: What planet do they live on????
Cardassians at least freely admit and endorse they engage in torture and surveillance and brutality, and believe such things are necessary evils.

The United States still tries to pretend that truth, justice and equality prevail.

Given an option, I'd rather the society that didn't lie to me, than the one that did.
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That One Guy (profile), 10 Dec 2014 @ 12:12am

Re: The treasonous bastards
Wait, they had the gall to tell the american government?!

Treasonous bastards indeed.
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That One Guy (profile), 10 Dec 2014 @ 12:15am

Anyone up for a game of 'Shoot the messenger'?
If exposing your actions is enough to motivate and justify your enemies by exposing just how vile you really are, and how low you've sunk, then maybe you shouldn't have done those actions in the first place.
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John Fenderson (profile), 10 Dec 2014 @ 8:58am

Re: Re:
" Even a nanosecond of consideration can give rise to scenarios where such interrogation methods become almost a moral imperative."

Such as? I honestly can't think of a single one.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 10 Dec 2014 @ 6:58pm

Re: Re: Re:
Exactly.

If exigent circumstances demand immediate action and the situation commanders first option is torture (and it is known that that does not work) then that situation commander is either morally bankrupt or incompetently trained.

One would hope that the actually incompetent never get promoted to the position of situation commander. Yet reality bites.

This is where I usually get into the argument about The Peter Principle ("managers rise to the level of their incompetence."), which I despise simply because it is managements fault that people get promoted, unless those people start their own businesses.

In the case of government, we tend to blame the voters, when it is really the details of the system that are at fault. Specifically but not limited to: money in politics and the concept of political parties. Both should be removed.
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