Rogers, Hayden Claim Release Of CIA Torture Report Will Be The Tipping Point For Enemies Of The US
from the you-know,-rather-than-everything-else-we've-done-to-piss-them-off dept
The NSA's many, many surveillance programs. The TSA's security theater. "See something, say something." The DHS and its "Fusion Centers," in which First Amendment-protected activity is viewed as inherently suspicious. The distribution of armored vehicles and high-powered weapons to law enforcement agencies. The FBI's constantly expanding investigative scope and powers. The NYPD's "Demographics Unit." These are all things we do because of terrorism.
Those who believe the threat of terrorism can justify nearly anything are now claiming the threat of terrorism justifies NOT doing something. Daniel Drezner rounds up quotes from current and former officials who believe that the safety of our nation now hinges on not releasing the long-delayed "Torture Report." Joining John Kerry in his statement that the release could have negative effects on "foreign policy" are a host of familiar names, starting with House Intelligence Committee head Mike Rogers.
"I think this is a terrible idea," Rogers said. "Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths. . . . Foreign leaders have approached the government and said, 'You do this, this will cause violence and deaths.' Our own intelligence community has assessed that this will cause violence and deaths."Michael Hayden, former director of the CIA, echoes Rogers' concerns.
"...[T]his will be used by our enemies to motivate people to attack Americans and American facilities overseas."As Drezner points out, the narrative these men are pushing makes no sense. According to Hayden, Rogers and (to a lesser extent) Kerry, the release of this report will be the tipping point for our enemies, rather than two lengthy, unending military efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan… or years of drone strikes… the United States' constant support of Israel… the revelations of torture occurring at Abu Ghraib…
According to this narrative, terrorists will be more outraged by a damning Senate report than by the previous decade-plus of actions in response to the 9/11 attacks.
I'm sorry, but this is just nuts. There is no shortage of US foreign policy actions and inactions in the region to inflame enemies. The Senate report is small potatoes compared to that.The release of the report could actually be a net win for the US. Its reputation has taken several hits over the past year, and exposing its flaws to the world -- in hopes of preventing this behavior from repeating itself -- will show our allies, and our enemies, that the nation is stronger than its weakest moments. Delaying the release of the report, or rendering it meaningless via over-redaction, won't send the same message. Instead, it will confirm our enemies' (and allies') worst suspicions: that the US government cares more about maintaining a facade than actually making an effort to rebuild its damaged reputation. Doing what Kerry, Rogers and Hayden suggest -- bury the report until whenever (and at what point will we not have enemies?) -- could actually provide more motivation to terrorists than being open, honest and contrite about the CIA's actions.
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Filed Under: cia, foreign policy, john kerry, michael hayden, mike rogers, surveillance, terrorists, torture, torture report
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Yea, THAT report release will be the tipping point
The lack of change or shift in policy outcomes is where the anger will be from.
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Then we just have to assume the worst
We should then proceed to prosecute everyone in the chain of command under the assumption that they have, by their own admission, committed the most horrible violations of human rights.
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Protip: If exposing your actions will motivate people to become your enemies, you are probably doing something wrong.
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The parallel with Snowden
Hey Rogers and Hayden: if you're so worried about blowback, then why are you not so worried about the things that actually cause the blowback?
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It may cause violence and deaths, but at least it won't cause torture.
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Reasons not to torture!
If you do it to your enemies, then they will do it to you.
It hurts.
It's messy.
It needs to be hidden.
It cannot be hidden.
It will come back to bite you as above, and then years later when the people you work for (not your bosses, your employers, you know, the taxpayers) find out about it.
Then, knowing all of that, coming up with excuses to do it, and then more excuses to hide it, and then more excuses to excuse the perpetrators, and then excuses for your excuses (no one ever said government employees had imagination).
Makes one really wonder what they thought the original upside was.
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They are already committed to our destruction without this report, filling in the blanks with their own imaginings... so the facts are so horrible they will hate us more?
Perhaps saving face is the real motivation behind trying to stop this. That the American public will see what was done in their names and rightfully ask which assholes approved this and where do I sign to remove them from power.
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I think even a three year old knows that by now.
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You know what would've prevented this altogether?
Not torturing people in the first place.
Ooops. My bad - I meant not using "enhanced interrogation techniques."
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CIA / NSA and foreign intelligence = a bunch of morons...
It's the fact that you idiots committed war crimes to begin with that will cause deaths and mayhem.
Everyone involved with these war crimes should be shot so that the rest of us can live knowing these criminals (who are no better than the Nazis were during WWII) are dead and gone.
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This actually tells you what the government has planned
The fact that your government is scared of people's reaction to the report shows that they have no intention of acting on it.
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Has the right of it
Realistically, this argument is getting sillier and sillier. All they're doing now is stretching it day by day, trying to wear out the people who want it published. They have an infinite list of excuses they will drag out one-by-one, forever.
I still will be surprised if it is ever published in a usable form.
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Maybe, for our internal enemies. Possibly just an occasional sacrificial lamb. But I wouldn't really count on anything more than business as usual.
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Re: The parallel with Snowden
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WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
makes us all wonder how far you tipped to that hitler guy and mengela
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follow-up is critical
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Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
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Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
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What's the point?
Does he insinuate that the U.S. is supposed to be against violence and deaths now? That's good since we can reduce a lot of military spending then. People will be happy to hear that Rogers stands for scrapping all predator drones and telling the CIA that violence and deaths (like those caused by torture or assassination programs) are a bad idea and they are not heros and patriots for committing them.
If the U.S. is prepared to abolish all violence and death originating from its soil, not getting to see the torture report seems like a good deal.
I somehow doubt that this is Roger's plan, though. My suspicion is that he is making a pitch for the Nobel prize in hypocrisy, a category that really deserves to get a prize of its own as it is watering down the others more and more.
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Re: Reasons not to torture!
Torture of innocent people is the only way Dick Cheney can maintain an erection.
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FBI can capture more fake terrorists...
Or, maybe, just maybe, they could arrest the real traitors that committed the heinous war crimes, those that new about them and didn't act on that knowledge, and those that heard about the acts and didn't act on it.
Yes, I admit that might mean they have to arrest half the U.S. Government and 99% of the alphabet soup agencies in this Country, but then the criminals would be gone and our Country would be safer.
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Why the quotes?
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Re: Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
unfortunately, too many sheeple do NOT know the sordid side of our continuing oppression of brown people the world over, WE -you know, 'the good guys'- are directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of MANY MILLIONS...
hell, that's just in the phillipines/indonesia...
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Simples, no?!
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Would Americans rather live in a dictatorship tyranny or a free country.
I prefer being free even if that means free to starve
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If that's the case...
Then we deserve what we receive - and the blood is on the hands of those who allowed the torture to occur in the first place.
How can this "logic" be so difficult to understand - clearly the people making these statements failed at basic logic.
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Plain and simple we have war criminals in our government, now scared that their actions will be shown to be what they are and they could and should be called up before World Court to be held accountable for those crimes.
No damn wonder we're making more enemies. You have innocents locked up in Guantanamo, because you offered a bounty but did not bother to check that those being turned in were actually guilty of something. We've sent hellfire missiles into wedding parties and funerals but not killed the target, instead killing a lot of innocents, and then claimed they were terrorists. Nothing like bolstering the enemy resistance and encouraging people to join because their innocent relatives just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is still going on. You sure aren't winning hearts and minds over mistargetting just who should be killed.
And then come up with a BS excuse that it would be a tipping point? Please get some better material writers because those you are using for media points are failing seriously. This isn't even decent propaganda when any average citizen can see just what BS this is.
I am sadly disillusioned over the direction the US government has taken. This country I don't recognize as the country I put my ass on the line for in the military. You and all your cohorts have lost the support of the American people and until you make an accounting of it, it is not going to get better or magically change.
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The torture programs have caused violence and death.
Stop torturing and killing people that you have in custody. Those that did belong in jail. Those that support it deserve to be tried for crimes against humanity.
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Sad Thing
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Accountability has been conveniently removed from the equation that is government.
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Re: Sad Thing
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They truly pissed me off greatly.My Dad was a member of the Jewish Underground in Budapest and he is a Holocaust Survivor.
He was tortured by the Hungarian Nyilas and German Gestapo and one of the things done was to make pretend they were drowning him AKA WATERBOARDING.
http://www.bigmeathammer.com/aushwitz.htm
Kratz Family Holocaust Memorial of Carpathian and N.Romanian Jewry.
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Re:
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Applying this logic to criminal cases...
Defence lawyer: "Your Honour, I move to suppress all evidence the prosecutor intends to offer in this case."
Judge: "Was the evidence obtained unlawfully?"
Defence: "No, your honour."
Judge: "Is the evidence irrelevant to the case?"
Defence: "No, your honour."
Judge: "Is the evidence fabricated or in any way misleading?"
Defence: "No, your honour."
Judge: "Then why should it be suppressed?"
Defence: "It would give the jury the impression my client is guilty, your honour."
Judge: "You want me to suppress truthful and accurate evidence that your client is guilty, because it would lead the jury to believe that your client is guilty?"
Defence: "Yes, your honour. My client is absolutely guilty of all charges filed, and is concerned that disclosing detailed evidence of his guilt may lead the jury to see him in an unfavourable light."
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These people that tell us that the report needs to be concealed...
Is there any other reason for which we as a nation should not show outright contrition? We're talk about the torture program of the United States government and military.
The enemies of the US have good cause to fear and hate us and wish upon us ill will. And the allies of the US and neutral parties have good cause to distance from the US and become its enemies.
We have become the Galactic Empire. We have become Mordor. Opacity at this hour only allows everyone to assume the worst, that it is as many unforeseen revelations, that acts done in the name of the United States have been worse than we imagined they could be.
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Re:
meanwhile the real terrorists are those controlling the drones
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Re: These people that tell us that the report needs to be concealed...
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Re: follow-up is critical
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Re:
Enhanced Interrogation Executive Summary Redacto-Pamphlet
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Re: Re: These people that tell us that the report needs to be concealed...
The very instant that the leader of the free world authorized military technology to be deliberately and directly deployed against all civilian targets was the very same instant that the free world became another trite relic of history.
Welcome to the New World Order covertly brought to you by: ????
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Re: Re: These people that tell us that the report needs to be concealed...
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Re: Re: follow-up is critical
There is a big difference in doing things right vs doing the right thing, at times.
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At the very least they'll ruin Dick Cheney's whole day. And that can only be a good thing even though nobody of any importance will ever stand trial as long as the US government can do anything to prevent it.
And it can, unfortunately.
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Re: Re:
They probably see absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with torturing people, but exposing the fact that the US engages in and supports torture? Oh you better believe they think that's a problem that needs to be dealt with.
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Re: follow-up is critical
Prosecute our patriotic heroic Dr Mengeles? You must be kidding. We already established that this is not in the national interest, that's why we do not even want pseudonyms in the published report that would make it possible to figure out who the real fiends of humanity are in our ranks.
We promised them carte blanche for crimes against humanity, and we imprudently made people frown on the Nuremberg defense: if we had not just pulled over Wernher von Braun for NASA but also Freisler for the Department of Justice, Mengele for the CIA and Göring as Secretary of State, we would have beat the Russians to the first torture camp on the moon.
A small clubbing for a blackie, but a large thrashing for the sake of white superiority.
Uh yeah. Follow-up is critical. Sorry for getting carried away. It's hard not to get excited when one sees the U.S. rising to its potential.
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Re:
They got lawyers to tell them it was all legal.
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Re: Applying this logic to criminal cases...
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For our own good
They've turned it into a script and can't disclose the contents until Rob Zombie agrees to direct it as the third film in the House of 1,000 Corpses franchise. Negotiations might have stalled because Rob needed a vomit bucket during the initial reading.
Contains missing pages from the Necronomicon and they had to give it to Bruce Campbell for safekeeping.
If we knew the kinds of acts they performed in our names around the world, they would be forced to kill a great many of us to quell the revolution.
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Sure. It's not an accident that the U.S. does not accept the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice in The Hague.
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Since everyone who doesnt bend over and praise the flag is a terrorist, this report will create millions of new terrorists.
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Re: Has the right of it
The really wierd thing about this? This is just the for public viewing sanitized version of the real, ten times longer, report. Yet that level of obfuscation isn't enough for them.
I'm thinking Nuremburg level stuff now, and they're making it worse with their every word. I'm feeling very sorry for the USA public right now. What a dark chapter those bastards led you into.
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Re: Reasons not to torture!
But this line is bullshit!
"If you do it to your enemies, then they will do it to you."
People that are okay with torture are going to torture your ass regardless of whether or not you torture them. America has a bad habit of "reasoning" this shit away regardless of which side you are on... its the same damn logic process that says abortion is okay! Fucked up Logic!
Left or Right... there is lot of cognitive dissonance to go around!
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Re: Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
They're going all the way to the wall to keep you believing that. From that, I have to assume it's even worse than Hitler.
We'll have to retire Godwin. Apparently, we have a new low now: 21st Century USA.
I offer my deepest condolences. This is a very sad day.
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Re: Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did
Very true. Many royal palace dungeons spent centuries refining the craft of torture. Waterboarding is fairly benign by those standards.
There was a US president once who is now revered partly because he stepped up and took responsibility for his actions: "I cannot tell a lie ...". It's possibly apochryphal, but I guess we can retire that completely now.
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Re: FBI can capture more fake terrorists...
This crap about bad juju from the release of the torture report is just the smokescreen by Hayden/Rogers et al to avoid a report that exposes their criminality to the light of day.
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Re: Re: follow-up is critical
I didn't think that. After all, we're watching as a crime is being committed before our eyes. These idiots think this is a game of face saving reputation salvage.
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Re: Re: Applying this logic to criminal cases...
Nailed it indeed.
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What planet do they live on????
"Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths. . . . Foreign leaders have approached the government and said, 'You do this, this will cause violence and deaths.' Our own intelligence community has assessed that this will cause violence and deaths."
There is no shortage of US foreign policy actions and inactions in the region to inflame enemies.
WHERE were the brains when the underlying actions were hatched?
In other words, it is not what you did but telling your parents about it that causes the problems? On what planet did these people get their education?
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Re: If that's the case...
How many more times must this lesson be learned?
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prove its not torture!
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Re: prove its not torture!
That wouldn't count at all. A huge part of what makes something torture is that there is no time limit for it and you have to say in whether or not it happens. If those two things are missing, then it's not a comparable activity.
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We've justified the nutjobs
The Houri-craving nutjobs are incidental. They're units of desperation in an asymmetrical theater. And whatever notions that they are told of the US to indoctrinate them for battle, the things we actually do are much, much worse.
The US has actually become the demon they are sent to fight.
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Torturing pundits and representatives
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The treasonous bastards
The treasonous bastards
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Re: Re: Re:
The big, obvious analogy finally dawned on me: ever play Peek-a-Boo with an infant? Magic hands made Mommy disappear!
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Re:
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Re: Re:
In these cases the torturer isn't just sacrificing his subject's humanity or rights, he's also sacrificing his own. Did the torture miraculously work and save lives? Even if it did, the act still needs to be condemned, and those involved still must be punished.
If you're going to take a bullet to protect a friend, you don't get to tell the world to stop while you look for a bullet-proof vest.
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Re: What planet do they live on????
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Re: The treasonous bastards
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Re: Re: What planet do they live on????
The United States still tries to pretend that truth, justice and equality prevail.
Given an option, I'd rather the society that didn't lie to me, than the one that did.
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Re: The treasonous bastards
Treasonous bastards indeed.
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Anyone up for a game of 'Shoot the messenger'?
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Re: Re:
Such as? I honestly can't think of a single one.
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Re: Re: Re:
If exigent circumstances demand immediate action and the situation commanders first option is torture (and it is known that that does not work) then that situation commander is either morally bankrupt or incompetently trained.
One would hope that the actually incompetent never get promoted to the position of situation commander. Yet reality bites.
This is where I usually get into the argument about The Peter Principle ("managers rise to the level of their incompetence."), which I despise simply because it is managements fault that people get promoted, unless those people start their own businesses.
In the case of government, we tend to blame the voters, when it is really the details of the system that are at fault. Specifically but not limited to: money in politics and the concept of political parties. Both should be removed.
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