The CIA Will Keep Killing Civilians With Drone Strikes Because The 'Rules' For Drone Strikes Aren't Actually Rules
from the more-like-a-list-of-'it-would-be-nice-if...'-requests dept
Extrajudicial killing by pilotless air strikes is just something our government does now. Weaponized drones are sent out to eliminate enemies of the United States, supposedly under the guidance of the Dept. of Justice and some presidential policy directives. But the rules aren't rules. They appear to be set in stone when the legal authority behind these drone strikes is questioned. But they're much more fluid when they "need" to be... like, say, after a drone strike takes out more than its intended target. [h/t Chris Soghoian]
Last week, the U.S. officials disclosed that two Western hostages, U.S. and Italian aid workers Warren Weinstein and Giovanni Lo Porto, were killed on Jan. 15 by a U.S. drone strike aimed at al Qaeda militants in Pakistan…But what guidelines? Certainly not those that supposedly govern these strikes. According to those guidelines, the target must be determined to be an "imminent threat" before the strike can be authorized. EXCEPT:
Last week, Mr. Obama apologized for the killings and took personal responsibility for the mistake. He called the operation “fully consistent with the guidelines under which we conduct counterterrorism efforts in the region...”
President Barack Obama tightened rules for the U.S. drone program in 2013, but he secretly approved a waiver giving the Central Intelligence Agency more flexibility in Pakistan than anywhere else to strike suspected militants, according to current and former U.S. officials.These rules were in place to prevent exactly what occurred in this drone strike: civilian casualties. In Pakistan, this condition does not apply. So, rather than have the CIA hold off until it had gathered more intelligence, the strike was carried out at the agency's discretion.
Obama apparently issued a Presidential Policy Directive on drone strikes in 2013. Whatever it changed in the existing policies has yet to be implemented. It certainly didn't revoke the CIA's Pakistan pass. Rules don't apply in that country's borders. And there's no way of telling if the similar waiver exempting Iraq and Syria has been withdrawn.
The DOJ's drone strike memo says targets must present a "continued" and "imminent" threat. This wording alone ensures only minimal investigative standards need to be met before authorizing a drone strike in any country the US currently has a military presence. (Or adjacent to that country…) Because troops may be targeted by terrorist groups, any suspected terrorists in the area can be considered "imminent threats" simply because of their proximity -- not their actions.
This language -- along with multiple administrative waivers -- has turned drone strikes into something performed almost exclusively at the CIA's discretion. Sure, there's some oversight of the program, but like a majority of US intelligence oversight, it's mainly words rather than deeds.
Here's what drone killing oversight looks like:
About once a month, staff members of the congressional intelligence committees drive across the Potomac River to C.I.A. headquarters in Langley, Va., and watch videos of people being blown up.So, the CIA holds a monthly snuff filmfest for intelligence oversight committees. Figuring moving pictures are worth thousands of words, it then withholds the thousands of words justifying its decision to carry out a strike. Despite this process being clearly aimed at minimizing objections and questions, intelligence committee heads still offer their support of the program and the agency running it, even when they clearly don't trust the CIA on other issues.
As part of the macabre ritual the staff members look at the footage of drone strikes in Pakistan and other countries and a sampling of the intelligence buttressing each strike, but not the internal C.I.A. cables discussing the attacks and their aftermath.
When Ms. Feinstein was asked in a meeting with reporters in 2013 why she was so sure she was getting the truth about the drone program while she accused the C.I.A. of lying to her about torture, she seemed surprised.Cognitive dissonance has long been a feature of intelligence committee leadership. Sen. Feinstein has now done this twice -- the other time being her outrage over the CIA spying on her staffers, while simultaneously offering her support for NSA programs that performed similar functions.
“That’s a good question, actually,” she said.
The CIA holds an extreme amount of power, one that can be used carelessly and/or thoroughly abused. And no one -- at any level of government -- has done anything more than encourage it to handle drone strikes as it sees fit. And all the while, the rules continue to shift, molding themselves to each situation, often applying retroactive forgiveness for legally-questionable strikes.
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Re:
...wait a sec...
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Re: Re:
Oh, come on! The US has a *long* history of pulling dirty shit, long before drones made it so easy for them to do so. The US has been undermining democratically elected governments for at least a century, even while lieing through its teeth when caught red handed.
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Check out the Sobieski room...
When people are talking about re-instating the Caliphate, it's really ignorant to willfully ignore history in favor of "current events".
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Re: Check out the Sobieski room...
You mean the Catholics and the IRA?
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Re: Re: Check out the Sobieski room...
More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.
and the IRA?
More civilians were killed by Muslim hijackers in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
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Re: Re: Re: Check out the Sobieski room...
Yeah, Islamist extremists are right up there with domestic police forces. How about we compare them to the US military instead?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Check out the Sobieski room...
Diffcult to do because a lot of the deaths attributed to the US military - see for eaxmple here
turn out out to have been carried out in practice by the Islamists. Bad US policy caused by an inability to let go of the Russians as an an enemy is responsible for both.
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Re: Re: Re: Check out the Sobieski room...
Well, you didn't cite any references, but even so, so what of it?
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Re: Re: Re: Check out the Sobieski room...
I notice you left out the crusades. How convenient.
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My people are worth more than your people because we're better than you are.
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It's not even NEARLY all the US. Some countries work by doing something to themselves at home and blaming the US.
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We in the West are (rightly) self critical in these matters - but please don't be under any illusions about the way other countries view these things. Unlike the West they aren't the least bit embarassed or apologetic.
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I don't ask for every strike against civilians to be condamned just one, one example that realy changed something.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Since the comment I was replying to!
I think you misunderstand the "we".
Mainstream media may not be very upfront but there are plenty of critical voices to be heard in the west - and they tend not to get murdered quite as often as happens in some places.
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Imagine a "Parlay Zone" sign on a terrorist security house.
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or, for another example
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or, for another example
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Desensitizing?
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The death of the innocent hostages is tragic but what do you do with militant terrorists who won't stop hostage taking?
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I dunno, maybe start with not bombing them? Whatever happened to extraction teams?
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Too expensive, too unreliable, and creates a horrible PR mess when they fail. Ask Jimmy Carter. They only barely pulled off the Abottabad caper. They had to destroy one of the choppers when it crashed. They were damned lucky they didn't lose any seals. Imagine having to explain to all the Support Our Troops people that you'd actually killed some of them.
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Re:
You go get them. IN PERSON. That's why we have the largest military budget of any country on the planet. That's why we have umpty-zillion intelligence programs, some of which are illegal and/or unconstitutional. That's why we have multi-billion dollar weapon systems. That's why we have enormous military forces.
What good is all that if they can't even manage to take out a few terrorists and rescue some hostages? Is it too much to expect some return on our investment?
Maybe the FBI could take some time out from making up fake plots and recruiting stooges to them to help out. Maybe the NSA could stop spying on Americans and spy on actual real live terrorists for a change. Maybe the CIA, which is supposed to be pretty good at killing people, could dispatch some of their more sociopathic operatives. Maybe the TSA could offer up some of its personnel as substitute hostages -- because then we could just leave them there and solve two problems at once.
But I suppose it's much easier to avoid all the muss and fuss and just push buttons from thousands of miles away, then collect a medal for it.
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A chance to surrender...
Of course, it would help if we didn't have the reputation of torturing our captured POWs or unlawful combatants. But we dug that grave, ourselves.
But now it's okay to kill civilians. That's what the bad guys do in the movies so that you know they're the bad guys.
And now it's what we do.
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So Americans you have a simple choice. You either get your out of control government under control or you wait for someone to decide enough is enough and subjects your country to what your government has been using your military to subject much of the third world to.
Personally I would prefer you take back your government as anything that attacks America will screw up Canada
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Parent (loudly): OK, just so no one spoils their dinner, no taking cookies from the jar after 4:00PM!
*Turns to Billy
Parent (whisper): Except for you Billy, you can take as many cookies as you want, and do with them as you please, like share them with me. It'll be our little secret.
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Obama's apology
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Responsibility?
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Re: Responsibility?
Sure you can be against "warfare in general" but that's something else. Once you're past that then things not going to plan just come with the territory. Modern civilians don't seem to understand that at all.
The Pentagon was too good with it's own propaganda about "surgical warfare".
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It's really easy to take responsibility for something when there are zero repercussions
Um, no. If he took *personal* responsibility, he would be on trial for some form of homicide. Or maybe he is offering to be put on trial, but he knows no one is going to take him up on that offer.
An apology without remorse for your actions (*not* "remorse" for the outcome) is as smoke blown up our asses. May as well just say "We blew up some innocent folks" and leave it at that.
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Question
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Re: Question
One is done by a person pressing a button 10k miles away the other by a person wearing a bomb.
...
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Re: Re: Question
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Hemmingway lamented the way war was becoming impersonal
Actually in the 19th century with the rise of artillery, that was the same thing.
And we've been able to get further and further away. At the point in time that someone could kill a city of people across the globe with a MIRV ICBM, the notion of war having that personal touch.
The drone pilot is literally phoneing it in.
The suicide bomber is still getting acquainted with those he's about to kill, but the question remains what is left of him to care, when he has been rendered into a payload delivery system. Whether hopped up on drugs or ideology or outrage (probably all three) he may not be coherent enough to be considered rational anymore.
So it comes down to his handler. The one who launched him in the first place.
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Meanwhile in Pakistan
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/04/07/world/asia/ap-pakistan-cia.html
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Fire up the war machine
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Re: Fire up the war machine
Like every person hit by a drone strike. If a country thinks that a person is acting against its laws then put them to trial. But just killing them goes against everything a modern country stands for. Ask for extradition, abduct them but put them infront of a freaking court and give them a fair trial. If you don't do that then you are not better than a 3rd world dictatorship.
And from that point of view there is no difference between Rep or Dem.
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I repeat. . .
The NSA and CIA should only have the authority to collect information, they should never have the authority to conduct operation's. Any military or diplomatic actions should be left to the military, state department, or elected representatives.
Allowing these agencies to carry out operations has helped create the majority of the resentment toward the U.S. around the world and left us with dealing with the blow back for decades.
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Extrajudicial
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Re: Extrajudicial
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Would we be having this discussion...
A bomb or missle, dumb or 'smart', would do the same type of damage, and thus have the same collateral result.
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Re: Would we be having this discussion...
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Posthumous Pardon... Oh Boy!
But hey! No worries, if it turns out that the person killed in the drone strike wasn't affiliated with terrorists they will be posthumously cleared of all wrong doing.
What could be better than that?
An who says US government sanctioned assassination programs don't work? What do they know?
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Re: Posthumous Pardon... Oh Boy!
Basically any person above the age of 12 or 16 I think it was, are declared armed combatants if they are in the blast of the drone strike.
There are no innocent civilians when it comes to drone strikes apparently
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Re: Re: Posthumous Pardon... Oh Boy!
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.."CIA Will Keep Killing Civilians With Drone Strikes"
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Nothing else will happen.
And the CIA is still operating on the "trust us" policy.
We had to do this because we had to.
It is somewhat insane that it still seems acceptable for the CIA to go and kill/assassinate people across the globe.
You won't see other nations sending death squads or drone squadrons into the states to hunt for "most assuredly" 'terrorists'.
If it kills just one terrorist, it was the right thing to do? Plus their neighbours and the first responders with the double-tap. Which will all be retro-actively classified as possible terroristics.
Hasn't Pakistan got nuclear weapons to discourage such madness?
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Re:
What about Saudi-Arabia and 9/11?
What about Salman Rushdie?
What about Theo Van Gogh?
What about the Attacks in Mumbai and in Kenya?
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Re: Re:
What about Theo Van Gogh?
Not that kind of drone, you idiot.
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