Court: Your Fourth And Fifth Amendment Rights No Longer Exist If You Leave The Country
from the a-blank-check-for-extraterritorial-abuse dept
The DC Appeals Court has just come to an unfortunate conclusion: because terrorism exists, your rights as a citizen will not be upheld if you travel outside of the United States. This summary of the case is from Lawfare's David Ryan, whose article claims this is a "victory" for the DOJ, rather than a loss for the American public.
The plaintiff, Amir Meshal, is a U.S. citizen and resident of New Jersey. According to the allegations in his complaint, he traveled to Somalia in 2006 to broaden his understanding of Islam, but fled to Kenya soon after because of violent unrest. In January 2007, a joint U.S.-Kenyan-Ethiopian law enforcement operation apprehended him and transported him to Nairobi. Over the next four months, the defendants allegedly violated Meshal’s Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights by secretly detaining and interrogating him, threatening him with torture and death, denying him access to counsel, and moving him across the borders of three African countries without legal process. The FBI eventually released Meshal, and the U.S. never charged him with any crime.Meshal sued the FBI for violating his rights, bringing a Bivens action against the involved agents. This action is supposed to remedy unlawful searches and seizures that occur during criminal investigations. Meshal's case, however, raised previously-unaddressed issues. First, Bivens has never been applied to extraterritorial incidents. Second, the tort -- while addressing actions taken during criminal investigations -- has never been raised in the context of criminal investigations with national security implications. Because of this, the court (somewhat reluctantly) found that Meshal could not seek damages under Bivens.
As we understand it, the Supreme Court has taken a case-by-case approach in determining whether to recognize a Bivens cause of action. We therefore need not decide, categorically, whether a Bivens action can lie against federal law enforcement officials conducting non-terrorism criminal investigations against American citizens abroad. Nor do we decide whether a Bivens action is available for plaintiffs claiming wrongdoing committed by federal law enforcement officers during a terrorism investigation occurring within the United States. Our holding is context specific.Unfortunately, this means Meshal cannot seek redress under any existing judicial precedent.
Once we identify a new context, the decision whether to recognize a Bivens remedy requires us to first consider whether an alternative remedial scheme is available and next determine whether special factors counsel hesitation in creating a Bivens remedy. See Wilkie, 551 U.S. at 550.The lower court, along with the dissent in this decision, finds this situation unsatisfactory. But as the appeals court sees it, the lack of a remedy for the violation of Meshal's rights under these specific circumstances is a problem that must be solved by other government entities
Meshal has no alternative remedy; the government does not claim otherwise. See Meshal, 47 F. Supp. 3d at 122 (“The parties agree that Mr. Meshal has no alternative remedy for his constitutional claims.”). Meshal, backed by a number of law professors appearing as amici curiae, argues that, when the choice is between damages or nothing, a Bivens cause of action must lie. The Supreme Court, however, has repeatedly held that “even in the absence of an alternative” remedy, courts should not afford Bivens remedies if “any special factors counsel[ ] hesitation.”
There are no definitive answers to these competing visions of congressional action. We are not foreclosing either interpretation, but in a case where the thumb is heavy on the scale against recognizing a Bivens remedy, uncertain interpretations of what Congress did in 1973 and 1988 cannot overcome the weight of authority against expanding Bivens. In any event, if the courts, as amici argue, have radically misunderstood the nature and scope of Bivens remedies, a course correction must come from the Supreme Court, which has repeatedly rejected calls for a broad application of Bivens. Because we follow its lead, we will ship our oars until that Court decides the scope of the remedy it created.The court doesn't appear thrilled with the conclusions it has reached. "Our hands are tied" decisions are seldom satisfactory, especially for plaintiffs.
If people like Meshal are to have recourse to damages for alleged constitutional violations committed during a terrorism investigation occurring abroad, either Congress or the Supreme Court must specify the scope of the remedy.
The dissenting opinion -- written by Judge Cornelia Pillard -- points out just how bizarre the court's conclusion is.
Had Meshal suffered these injuries in the United States, there is no dispute that he could have sought redress under Bivens. If Meshal’s tormentors had been foreign officials, he could have sought a remedy under the Torture Victim Protection Act. Yet the majority holds that because of unspecified national security and foreign policy concerns, a United States citizen who was arbitrarily detained, tortured, and threatened with disappearance by United States law enforcement agents in Africa must be denied any remedy whatsoever.But the decision stands. And for the DOJ, it means its agencies will have a lot of leeway in the handling of US citizens it detains in other countries. Americans' rights are effectively nullified if the detainment is declared to be in the interest of national security. The majority opinion -- while dismissing Meshal's case -- states its sympathy for his situation and agrees that US citizenship has "inherent value." Unfortunately, its conclusion here appends a national security asterisk to that assertion, furthering the notion that civil liberties should nearly always grant the right of way to the War on Terror.
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Filed Under: 4th amendment, 5th amendment, amir meshal, borders, citizens, doj, fbi, rights
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Our hands are tied =
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Re: Our hands are tied =
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Yes they are.
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It's dangerous out there...
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Re: It's dangerous out there...
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Re: It's dangerous out there...
*as long as the free are actual citizens and are physically inside the country's borders.
I wonder if "inside" includes the CBP zones?
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So we threaten people with torture and death, deny them access to counsel, move them about with no due process at all, and then set him loose in the U.S. with no recourse at all? If this guy wasn't a terrorist before, you bet your ass he's one now.
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They already know that the cries of "democracy" and "freedom" are lies, but how can they trust the US with anything if this is how they treat their own citizens? Meanwhile, of course, the actual terrorists are still laughing at how easy it was to scare you enough to throw away your own rights and freedoms, as that was the goal of the terrorism in the first place.
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And of course...
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Re: And of course...
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Re: And of course...
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So if the fourth and fifth don't apply outside the country...
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Re: Re: Re: And of course...
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At the border
If they want the rights limited to the border they should propose and adopt the "limited bill of rights" amendment that reads something like this:
Within the border the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
I also believe that our constitution applies to non-citizens inside and outside of the border. If everyone is not treated equal then the government could always argue ignorance as a shield to their violations. "Really we thought this guy Oscarry Benlyen wasn't a citizen but now that we know otherwise after holding him without trial for 10 years he is free to go."
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Re: At the border
On the one hand, having a congresscritter submit a proposal for that to make a point would be pretty funny, and potentially drive more attention to the issue. On the other hand, I can't help but feel enough of the other congresscritters would completely miss the 'joke', take it seriously, and actually try and get it passed.
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Re: Re: At the border
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How else would you ensure the safety of your citizens?
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"Hail Caesar" vs. "sic semper tyrannis".
I recommend Harry Sidebottom's novels about Imperial Rome. The guy on the street two thousand years ago didn't think all that differently about his gov't from what we're reading about right now. That's two thousand years of treading water while listening to platitudes from liars on high, who're all just looking for a chance to stab you in the back or worse. We suck at being a sentient species.
I only wonder why it was the Italians (or Egyptians, or Persians) who pulled it all together first. Maybe just "location, location, location", as in real estate.
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On the contrary
As noted in the article, he was screwed because of his US citizenship, not in spite of it.
Because of his US citizenship, US agents were able to act as though he fell under US jurisdiction, while at the same time claiming that because he wasn't in the US at the time, none of the rights, legal or constitutional that he might have otherwise been protected by applied.
Because of his US citizenship the court system he brought the case to was a US one, leading to this mess where he's forced to go through the US system, but lacks any rights of a US citizen.
His US citizenship didn't help him, it completely eliminated any chance of redress for what he went through.
And let's not forget:
If Meshal’s tormentors had been foreign officials, he could have sought a remedy under the Torture Victim Protection Act. Yet the majority holds that because of unspecified national security and foreign policy concerns, a United States citizen who was arbitrarily detained, tortured, and threatened with disappearance by United States law enforcement agents in Africa must be denied any remedy whatsoever.
A US citizen was detained without charge, tortured, threatened with 'disappearance' and death, by US agents, and yet again a US court does nothing, 'because terrorism'.
The law mentioned, the Torture Victim Protection Act allows US citizens to sue those responsible for torturing them, but only if they're foreign agents/citizens. Thanks to the ones responsible being US agents, the law ceases to apply, and thanks to the court's willingness to allow USG agents to torture anyone so long as they're willing to pull the 'National Security' trump card, the poor sod here has basically no other options.
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Re: On the contrary
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Re: On the contrary
I knew it was over when I was told that using a high-pressure pump to shoot hummus up someone's ass was now considered a life-saving medical procedure 'because terrorism'.
I'd be happier if they'd just excuse their behavior with 'because power-mad narcissistic sociopathy'.
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If US law doesn't apply outside the US...
The government is fond of that quote about the Constitution not being a suicide pact, but they tend not to think of the corollary to it -- if the highest law of the land is not a suicide pact, then lesser laws such as mere statutes cannot be either.
This sort of crap proves something I've been saying for a while now -- what good do lawsuits do if, even if you win, you get paid off with your own money and the money of your fellow citizens, with the people you sued never paying a penny?
Any violation of rights you can win a lawsuit under 42 USC 1983 for, is also a criminal act under 18 USC 242. Since most such violations of rights include acts of violence one way or another, perhaps the time has come to apply the laws the police like to hide behind, the ones that don't apply to just those with badges?
Self-defense against a violent criminal is not illegal, even if that criminal is a federal agent. It cannot be illegal, otherwise it would be impossible for the government itself to arrest or prosecute a government agent/employee -- don't forget, handcuffing someone unlawfully is assault.
Granted, one individual against an army is a bad idea generally, but if the only way we can get the justice our Constitution guarantees us is through vigilance committees or militias -- well, if the government is already in a state of rebellion against its own Constitution, it's not treason to put down the rebellion.
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You never go full Kafka
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Re: You never go full Kafka
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Jurisdiction
In principle, everyone is obliged to remain within the laws of the local territory. But as a `representative' of one's own nation should also stay within those constitutional rights/obligations.
Off course this applies even more to officers of the state...
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You have no rights
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Re: You have no rights
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...unless you're not a citizen, in which case we can spy on you or blow you up with drones.
...or you leave the country, in which case you're fair game for kidnapping and torture.
...or if you're a non-LEO citizen, then we can do whatever we like.
Aren't freedom, democracy, and civil rights great?
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(because everybody else hates the USA and is a terrorist until proven innocent)
OH, the taxes? THAT is not in the constitution,
therefore remains valid!!!
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'extraordinary rendition' flipped over and cooked again
Since 'extraordinary rendition' was used exclusively against non-US citizens (which can include immigrants being unjustly stripped of acquired citizenship status before being "deported" to another nation's custody), then why not flip it over and create another novel legal environment, this one for US citizens who are arrested abroad?
That's something that should have been expected. Amir Meshal was a fool for not realizing that, as a Muslim-American citizen, traveling to certain countries would automatically put himself in the crosshairs of the US government's so-called "war on terrorism"
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Re: 'extraordinary rendition' flipped over and cooked again
you cannot have the wrong name/skin color/religion AND travel at the same time.
let me explain this again:
EITHER you travel OR have the wrong name/skin color/religion.
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Re: Re: 'extraordinary rendition' flipped over and cooked again
But the dangers of being the wrong race/religion/etc extend far beyond just traveling. When Muslims play the game of paintball, for instance, they are engaging in terrorism training, a crime which essentially carries a life sentence.
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/16/from_paintball_practice_to_prison_a
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Otherwise they will kidnap, disappear and torture you legally through different countries, forever.
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Applying that same logic
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Re: Applying that same logic
but did you fail to fill the tax forms while being outside? cause in that case YOU ARE FUCKED my fellow citizen.
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Unintended consequences?
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Re: Unintended consequences?
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Re: Unintended consequences?
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Revenge of the Federalist Society
"In May 1996, Governor Pete Wilson appointed Brown as Associate Justice to the California Supreme Court. Before the appointment, she had been rated "not qualified" by the State Bar of California's Commission on Judicial Nominees Evaluation, which evaluates nominees to the California courts. She was the first person with that rating to be appointed."
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NDAA
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US sovereignty ends at it's borders. The law of the US isn't the law of the rest of the world. It would be silly if it was. Americans (any, including police and such) are subject to the laws of the places they visit, American law doesn't follow you around like a little personal storm cloud.
What happened to this guy is a tragedy, but it's a weird situation where the laws of the countries (and those countries willingness to enforce their own laws) that carries the day.
It sucks, but honestly, it's no different from the arguments against France trying to apply it's "right to be forgotten" rules to everyone, everywhere. If their laws have limits (and they do) then US law is not any diffferent.
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Re:
That's true, but in this case we are talking about a US citizen having dealings with the US government (FBI). I don't recall any restriction in the Bill of Rights pertaining to physical locations.
In my opinion (but obviously not the opinion of our courts) the Bill of Rights limits what the US government can or cannot do and extends to anyone who has dealings with the US government, regardless of citizenship or physical location. The wording of the Bill of Rights is "persons", not "citizens".
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I think a judge would be incredibly silly and naive to try to enforce US law outside of the US.
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Yeah, here's the problem with that:
If people like Meshal are to have recourse to damages for alleged constitutional violations committed during a terrorism investigation occurring abroad, either Congress or the Supreme Court must specify the scope of the remedy.
They're claiming that they can't judge what went on because it was done during a 'terrorism investigation', clearly an action by the government and it's agents. The exact same actions undertaken for other reasons, by anyone else, would almost certainly have the judge throwing the book as hard as possible at those responsible.
The judge finding against those responsible wouldn't be 'enforcing US law outside of the US', they'd be punishing US agents/representatives, acting under cover of US authority, against a US citizen.
Either those responsible were acting under government authority/approval, in which case it would absolutely be fitting to consider their actions to fall under US jurisdiction, no matter where they were at the time, or they were not acting under USG authority/approval, in which case you've got rogue agents torturing US citizens, and they need to be dealt with severely.
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Were we really surprised that Whatever was going to respond in the exact same way that he's always done?
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If the FBI boarded a ship in international waters and proceeded to torture the occupants to death, do you suppose US courts should just shrug and tell the victims' families to take it up with some international tribunal?
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Nor do we decide whether a Bivens action is available for plaintiffs claiming wrongdoing...
There are no definitive answers to these competing vision...
...uncertain interpretations of what Congress did in 1973 and 1988 cannot overcome the weight of authority...
...we will ship our oars until that Court decides the scope of the remedy it created.
...either Congress or the Supreme Court must specify the scope of the remedy.
If you're a judge who won't decide on anything, won't try to come up with any 'definitive answers' to confusing problems, would rather accept an argument from authority than address uncertainty, and prefer to let other people decide things for you, maybe you should re-read your job description.
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Aiding an Abetting Tyranny
What type of check on tyranny do the federal court jesters (Sullivan, Kavanaugh, Brown, etal) infesting the US District Court for the District of Columbia provide?
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Re:
F.T.F.Y
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Think you have a right to a lawyer or to only be held for a certain period of time before they have to charge you or release you? "National security!" Poof, they can hold you as long as they want and deny you access to a lawyer.
Think they need a warrant to get private information about you? "National security!" Poof, no warrant required.
Think the courts can help you get justice for having your rights violated? "National security!" Poof, the court is rendered powerless.
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Rights are absolute
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Re: Rights are absolute
"Constitution of the United States of America
We, the people of the United States, ....ourselves, our posterity...constitution of the United States of America"
And that's just the title and introduction.
Though I take it you're being sarcastic, right?
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Re: Re: Rights are absolute
The Constitution in fact doesn't apply to any person at all, citizen or otherwise. The Constitution of the United States is a document that describes the LIMITS of the powers granted TO Federal Government BY the citizens of the newly formed country.
The first ten amendments (commonly referred to as the Bill of Rights) was added to the Constitution expressly to tell the Federal Government that the rights listed could NOT be modified, abridged, nor rescinded by the Federal Government, just in case the main Constitutional writing wasn't clear enough.
Those rights belonged to the people BEFORE the United States of America existed, something that should be obvious considering that the Constitution is not a document granting rights to the people but a document defining limits to the Federal Government. So to believe that only citizens of the United States have those rights defies both common sense and logic.
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Re: Re: Re: Rights are absolute
Human Rights may seem inalienable from our vantage point in the 21st century, but they don't stretch back vey far in the grand history of humanity.
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Re: Re: Re: Rights are absolute
Quoted because it outlines the scope of the document, i.e, The United States and the people of the United States.
I am not American, and I claim no 1st amendment rights, why would I. It is simply not the law of my country or 193 others.
If Americans really believed their rights followed them, then I wouldn't keep running into American backpackers with Canadian flags sewn onto their backpacks, would I?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights are absolute
So, if the US Constitution does not grant rights, then pray tell where did the rights come from if not from simply being human?
I don't believe my rights as a human being follow me because I am a US citizen. I believe I have those inalienable rights BECAUSE I am a human being. The same applies to any person, US citizen or not, physically in the US or not.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights are absolute
I'll leave it to you to work out the contradiction in what you said.
The rights granted to you by the constitution do not over rule any laws that are at odds with those rights when you leave the US.
eg, go to a country with speech laws, say something illegal, and see how far your 1st amendment gets you. Not too far I would imagine.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights are absolute
Last post.
"government has overstepped the powers granted to it by the Constitution."
There is no contradiction in this statement with my other posts. The Federal Government is granted powers through the Constitution BY the people, not the other way around.
"The rights granted to you by the constitution[...]"
The Constitution does not grant ANY rights to people, it is the PEOPLE granting limited power to the Federal Government.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights are absolute
You're still not getting it. He's not saying all other governments need to be like the US. He's saying the Constitution limits the powers of the US government, and the government doesn't get to ignore those limits just because it's dealing with someone who's not in the US at the moment.
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Too bad, US service members.
If the US won't even protect its own citizens, they're little better than loose cannons to the rest of the world. Do not need, at all.
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Court: Your Fourth And Fifth Amendment Rights No Longer Exist
The people have rights, the government employees have duties. Their first duty, the one they take an oath to obey, is to support and defend the Constitution. That includes the bill of rights, and the 4th and 5th amendment.
There are no exceptions, and there is no need for congressional action. 1st amendment gives everyone the right to petition the government for redress of grievances, and the courts have jurisdiction to hear such claims.
Congress has no power to authorize unconstitutional actions by government employees, so when they act outside of the scope of the constitution, they are just as much subject to the penalty of law as anyone else.
US sovereignty may end at its borders, but government employees are obligated under oath to obey the constitution wherever they are. There's nothing in the Constitution that says they are free of that oath if they are operating outside of US borders.
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