Dumb Idea... Or The Dumbest Idea? Seize Terrorists' Copyrights And Then Censor Them With The DMCA
from the no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no dept
At this point, we all know that the DMCA is a tool that is widely abused for censorship purposes. We have written post upon post upon post upon post upon post upon post upon post upon post upon post upon post upon post upon post upon post upon post upon post upon post detailing this (and those were just from the first page of my search results).Most people, once aware of this, would recognize that perhaps there's a problem with the DMCA and that it should be fixed. However, some people seem to look at that and say "hey, that's an awesome censorship tool, perhaps we should expand it to other content I don't like." That's why we see people talk about expanding it to cover revenge porn or mean people online.
Or, apparently, terrorism. Yes, terrorism. Paul Rosenzweig, who (believe it or not) really once was a high ranking official in the Department of Homeland Security thinks one way to fight ISIS is to seize their copyrights and then use the DMCA to censor them. He's not joking. Or, at least I think he's not. There's a small chance that it's really a parody, but Rosenzweig has a history of truly nutty ideas behind him, so I'm pretty sure he's serious.
I love that "all that would be required" because what he's really saying is that "all that would be required" is we upend basically all concepts regarding free speech and copyright just to silence some people I really don't like. No biggie.That model might, with a small legislative change, be adapted to the removal of ISIS terrorist speech. All that would be required was a modification of the law to assign the copyright in all terrorist speech to a non-terrorist organization with an interest in monitoring and removing terrorist content. Here are the essential components of such a plan:
- Identification of terrorist organizations to whom the law would apply;
- A definition of unprotected content associated with that terrorist organization;
- An extinguishing of copyright in such unprotected content; and
- Transfer of that copyright to a third party.
At this point, you should probably already be banging your head on a nearby hard surface, but it gets worse. He actually then worries about how much work it would be for the government to take all these copyrights and issue all those darn takedowns, so instead he suggests handing the copyrights to a third party, which he suggests could be set up similarly to the Red Cross (?!?) and saddling them with the task of issuing takedowns. Perhaps we can name them the Silencing Cross or something along those lines.
He insists that the First Amendment isn't really a problem here because terrorist speech can be seen as "material support" of terrorism and the Supreme Court has already wiped that away.
I'm not so sure that First Amendment scholars would agree with him that the shift from speech "to" to speech "by" is that simple, but that's really besides the point.The most salient case on point is Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project, 561 U.S. 1 (2010), a Supreme Court case that construed the USA PATRIOT Act's prohibition on providing “material support” to foreign terrorist organizations (18 U.S.C. § 2339B). The case is one of the very rare instances of First Amendment jurisprudence in which a restriction on political speech has been approved, and the only one of recent vintage.
The Humanitarian Law Project (“HLP”) had sought to provide assistance to the Kurdistan Workers’ Party in Turkey and Sri Lanka's Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. According to HLP, their goal was to teach these two violent organizations how to peacefully resolve conflicts. Congress had, previously, prohibited all material aid to designated organizations that involved “training”, “expert advice or assistance,” “service,” and “personnel.” HLP argued that its assistance was protected political speech. The government countered with the argument that a categorical prohibition on speech in the form of assistance was required because even non-terrorist assistance would "legitimate" the terrorist organization, and free up its resources for terrorist activities. The Court approved the limitation on speech because it was narrowly drawn to cover only “speech to, under the direction of, or in coordination with foreign groups that the speaker knows to be terrorist organizations” and served a national interest of the highest order – combatting terrorism.
It would follow, in the wake of Humanitarian Law Project, that just as speech “to” or “under the direction of” or “in coordination” with a foreign terrorist organization may be limited, so too may the content actually published “by” the terrorist organization.
Let's go back to basics here. Congress only has limited power over creating copyright law. Here it is:
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.I've read that a few times now and I really am struggling to find the part that says "and to censor terrorists."
I mean, I guess the single redeeming idea in Rosenzweig's proposal here is that it's a pretty blatant admission that copyright law is about censorship much of the time. The ISIS-insanity-freakout among political types is really kinda crazy to watch in action. First they wanted to use net neutrality to censor ISIS and now they want to use copyright law? What will they think of next? Defamation law is always popular. Perhaps we can amend Section 230 to silence terrorists. Or, I know, why don't we use the ITC. Or trade agreements. Oh wait, that's basically the MPAA's playbook to censor speech... and now surveillance state apologists can make use of it too!
Meanwhile, hey, maybe instead of trying to censor the folks at ISIS, you watch what they're saying and use that for surveillance purposes. I know, I know, crazy thought. But at the very same time we're having this debate, these very same people are arguing that we need less encryption so law enforcement and the intelligence community can see what ISIS is saying. Yet here's a way to see what they're saying and the focus is on "how do we silence such speech and make it harder to track!"
But, really, Paul, congrats -- we thought we'd heard the dumbest idea in a long time with Joe Barton's "use net neutrality to censor ISIS," but you've topped it. This is the dumbest idea we've heard in a long, long time.
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Filed Under: censorship, copyright, dmca, first amendment, isis, paul rosenzweig
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Authors
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Re: Authors
But I did see the Constitutional issue immediately.
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Re: Re: Authors
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Re: Authors
to create and maintain property rights over words, pictures, music, and other cultural and scientific items by securing for all eternity to the rightsholders the exclusive right to control the dissemination of their respective writings and discoveries in every way, shape, and form.
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No No No No
Warn all countries with known or suspected ISIS peeps within their borders.
Tell them that within 1 week's time, all countries that we still suspect have ISIS members within their borders, we're going to nuke their entire country into molten glass.
I guarantee that within 48 hours every ISIS/ISIL member will be dead.
ISIS wants to pretend they know what's "scary" or "bad".
Fuck ISIS, we can take "BAD" or "SCARY" or "TERROR" to levels they can't even imagine.
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Re: No No No No
How about terrorists from other organizations? For example Jeb Bush arranged the pardon and residency in the US for Orlando Bosch with his dad. This after Bosch was responsible for bombings from South America to Florida to Canada, and even a car bombing in Washington DC. His "greatest hit" was bombing an airliner out of the sky, killing 73 people.
He only died in 2011, having been given refuge in the US all through the "War on Terror." Are you calling on the US to nuke itself, or for another country to do it?
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Re: No No No No
on second thought, i'm good with that
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Re: No No No No
The problem with "terrorism" is that it's in the eyes of the beholder. Sure, with ISI*, we've got a group with a name, similar to what we had with Al Quaeda, but this time with a physical plot of land they want to claim for themselves.
I suggest, however, that you read Animal Farm, and maybe read up a bit on Fascist Italy (and Nazi Germany for that matter).
Then I suggest you read up on the Bastille and the French Revolution, which really has the best parallel I can think of here.
The French revolutionists basically said "You've got a limited time to turn over to us all monarchists. Failure to do so will be seen as harbouring monarchists, and such people will be executed."
The result? Everyone was turning over everyone they thought odd or just plain didn't like as a monarchist. They were mostly killed, or placed in the Bastille.
Meanwhile, the real monarchists were smart enough to either sneak away to somewhere else and pretend they had nothing to do with this, or pretend to be revolutionaries so nobody would suspect them.
This entire mess was supposed to be the French equivalent of the revolution a few years earlier in British North America. The difference was that the BNA revolution created a constitution that protected freedom of speech and movement. History has shown us how both approaches worked out in the long run.
PLEASE don't (seriously) suggest we undo all that work and remove the safeguards that made things work.
Hopefully you're doing something more along the lines of "A Modest Proposal."
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Source & Salem?
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You know, I'm reminded of the Salem Witch Trials.
I remember reading once about how when people were accused of being witches, they'd go on to accuse others (who'd then be arrested) in order to save themselves from execution.
*looks around*
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/salem/SAL_ACCT.HTM
I don't know how accurate this article is, but it talks about how the 'witches' were convicted based solely on questionable testimony.
There's also a suggestion near the end that some of the people making accusations stood to gain land and property if those they accused were executed.
I guess it goes to show that if you...uh...
What is the moral of this story, exactly?
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Re: Source & Salem?
Now that's some good reading. :)
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Re: No No No No
Is that you?
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Re: No No No No
I somehow doubt most countries will believe their hypocrisy if they ever made such a threat.
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Re: No No No No
I take it you're unfamiliar with the phrases "collateral damage" and "innocent non-combatants"? Doesn't it sound just a little insane to you to postulate that entire countries could be populated exclusively by terrorists or other sorts of bad guys?
Let Curtis LeMay rot in hell. We don't need anyone channeling that fool.
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Re: No No No No
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Re: No No No No
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http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2032.cfm
In my online debates with certain Christians, one person pointed me to that site. I noticed at the bottom the following lovely gem
"Copyright © 2004 Cutting Edge Ministries. All rights reserved. This password protected article and its contents are protected under the copyright laws of the United States and other countries. This article is provided by subscription only for use by the subscriber and all other rights are expressly reserved by the copyright owner. Copying and pasting this article, in whole or in part, into e-mails or as attachments to e-mails or posting it on the Internet is strictly prohibited and may subject the offender to civil liability and severe criminal penalties (Title 17, United States Code, section 501 and 506).
Copying and distributing this article in violation of the above notice is also a violation of God's moral law."
So apparently, copyright law is a religious law now. Should've expected it.
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Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
See Ronan Deazley's 2008 ”Commentary on the Stationers' Royal Charter 1557” in Primary Sources on Copyright (1450-1900). Dating the “Stationer's copyright” to the 1557 charter gives one-and-a-half centuries of copyright before the statute of 8 Anne.
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Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
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Re: Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
The Stationer's copyright was primarily aimed at the economic regulation of the printers. Yes, the Stationer's Guild cooperated with the state censors—the economic monopoly went hand-in-hand with the licensing regime. But it's quite inaccurate to say, as you wrongly asserted, that the Stationer's copyright was “permission from the government or church.”
Thus, with the end of state censorship in the final non-renewal of 1695, the printers and publishers and booksellers still had their economic interests to think of. Those economic interests stimulated the bookseller's lobbying that led up to the 1710 act.
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Re: Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
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Re: Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
Further, if you read through materials such as House Report 94-1476, you'll notice places where Congress intentionally did not alter the then-current law.
Notice, for example, 17 U.S.C. § 113(b)
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Re: Re: Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
Iow, “substantial expansion” presuppposes some other initial state amenable to “expansion”.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
Your point seems to be that the concept of copyright goes back to at least 1557. I'm trying to point out that copyright in the US changed drastically with the passage of the 1976 copyright act.
Copyright in the US needs to account for free expression, a restriction which is not necessarily a concern in other legal systems such as the UK's.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
Specifically, when the statute 8th Anne, c.19 (1710) refers to the “Register Book of the Company of Stationers” and directs that entries shall be made “in such manner as hath been usual”, then anyone reading those phrases must necessarily ask ‘What manner hath been usual already in 1710?’ (Emphasis added here; capitalization and punctuation according to linked source.)
Further, when one reads the current provisions of 17 U.S.C. § 411 and § 412 —one reads echoes.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
Looking at history, there is not much controversy that the 1710 English statute formed the model, 80 years later, for the United States Copyright Act of 1790.
Peering back into the history before 1710, though, one must carefully distinguish legal history from legal advocacy.
It is certainly not my intent to take sides in the great thirty-year ‘Battle of the Booksellers’ that began to rage upon the expiration of the initial copyrights which had been granted under the statute enacted in the 8th year of Queen Anne. The antagonists in court pressed history into the service of their legal arguments, and were not overly scrupl'd about it. In the cases of Millar v. Taylor (King's Bench 1769) and Donaldson v. Becket (House of Lords 1774) ( —and there were other cases, as well, before those two— ), the parties argued for legal outcomes, and the learned judges' opinions were aimed to support the legal decisions made in those cases back then.
If it is not my intent to controvert either Lord Mansfield or Lord Camden, then neither is it my intent to controvert that able lawyer James Madison. Certainly, the United States Supreme Court decision in the 1834 case of Wheaton v Peters, grounded upon Justice McLean's opinion, remains unassailable law on this side of the Atlantic today.
But having paid due regards to the entirely well-settled law, one may still have a keen interest in accurate legal history —daresay I truth?
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Re: Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
How would you propose to interpret Justice Ginsburg's “traditional contours” today?
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Re: Re: Re: Copyright History [was Re: Re: Re: ]
She's clearly referring to the CTEA. Which did not significantly alter the 1976 act other than extending the term.
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All these "Christian" organizations trying to peddle their wares don't seem to understand the "Fair Use for Education" exemption.
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Known nut says nutty thing
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Re: Known nut says nutty thing
Yes, TD's great for this. The problem is you and I dismiss them as clueless nutbars, but there's a lot of ignorant twits out there in positions of power whose opinion is swayed by said nutbars.
"Know thy enemy" and "forewarned is forearmed" are good, lasting truths. TD's a good barometer watching the collapse of civilization.
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Ministry of Censorship
Don't bother to cloak it in euphemisms.
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Typical homeland security
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Re:
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That can't go wrong at all...
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Re: That can't go wrong at all...
No, refusing to allow someone to use her government position to force her personal interpretation of her religion's marriage policy on everyone else, is not an attack on Christianity. Especially not when other major Christian denominations endorse and perform same-sex marriages.
No, not putting snow flakes on Starbucks cups is not an attack on Christianity.
Etc. Etc.
If you don't like "all the tension in this country", then stop trying to create it.
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Re: Re: That can't go wrong at all...
She went to JAIL for her religion. Even the Pope recognized this attack on religion and met with her. And it was proven in court if she were ANY other religion besides Christianity, accommodations would have been made (and have since been made).
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Re: Re: Re: That can't go wrong at all...
You would be shown the door in any other job, what makes her so special?
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Re: Re: Re: That can't go wrong at all...
She went to jail because she was actively blocking all attempts to accommodate her.
She is not required to issue marriage licenses for gay marriages. She is required let someone do it in her office, and she tried to stop that as well.
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Re: Re: Re: That can't go wrong at all...
Incorrect. She went to jail for using a government position to force her religion on others. It's not the same thing.
Nor did she do it for Christianity as a whole; other Christian denominations endorse and perform same-sex marriages. She did it for her own personal interpretation of Christianity.
> Even the Pope recognized this attack on religion and met with her.
Incorrect. The Pope briefly met with a group of "several dozen" people that she happened to be in. She did not have a private audience. Comments that her fan club misrepresent as supporting her, were made to reporters on the flight back to Europe and had nothing to do with her.
> if she were ANY other religion besides Christianity, accommodations would have been made (and have since been made)
Incorrect. What's been shown - and no-one denies this - is that accommodations are often made for other religions IN ADDITION TO Christianity. Jews and Muslims may be allowed to refuse to serve pork for example, while Christians may be allowed to refuse to work on Sundays. All may refuse to perform or attend same-sex marriage ceremonies.
But Christian or otherwise, those accommodations don't extend to letting a government official force their religion on OTHERS as Davis tried to do. Jews and Muslims can't use their government positions to deny food licences to restaurants serving pork. A Catholic with Davis's job could not have used her Catholic beliefs to deny Davis a licence for her second, third or fourth marriages. A Jehovah's Witness can't use a government position to stop blood donations and transfusions.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: That can't go wrong at all...
Muslims can definitely force TV stations and newspapers to follow the Islamic rule against selfies of Muhammad. When the rule of law won't let you get your way, upgrade to explosives and guns and people will cave out of fear.
Oh, and lest anyone resort to PC namecalling of "Islamphobia," need I remind you of what Bill Maher has been saying about there being only one group sticking out like a sore thumb who does this over and over and over and over again? IIRC a whopping zero Catholics blew themselves up at movie theaters showing Life of Brian. Even Scientology isn't this insane...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: That can't go wrong at all...
Uh, religious extremists?
No, Catholics don't blow themselves up. Centuries of warfare between states, however, and genocidal colonization, persecuting heretics and witches, the Inquisition, the Crusades, ... Scientology are amateurs in comparison.
Pretty selective view of history you have there. Yes, you are an Islamophobe if you blame only Islam. Then there's Japanese Shinto and Zen Buddhism, the Inca, Aztec, and Mayan cults, Egyptian Pharaonic cults, ...
Islam's just the latest to join the party, and Christianity's only starting to slow down lately.
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Re: Re: Re: That can't go wrong at all...
And it doesn't matter how a person identifies, if they behaved the same as Davis. Some Christians do not have a monopoly on believing what Davis does. Plenty of other Christians believe differently, at least insofar as to government representatives attempting to enforce their personal faith on others, if not thinking that some cherry-picked words from their book are simply odious, or at least as worthy of disregard as nearby words about wearing mixed fibers.
Davis actively interfered with normal operations of our secular government. Others would be fired or go to jail for doing the same, regardless of whatever thing they claim is the source of their behavior. Religion already gets enough privilege and leeway in this respect, far more than any other claim of conscience. (Unless it is currently a religion in disfavor, then we see whether secular law is upheld or not.)
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Re: Re: Re: That can't go wrong at all...
Her rights are not more important than anyone else's. The moment she denied people her rights was the moment she lost any sympathy.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: That can't go wrong at all...
Authoritarians can be found in every sphere but let's be honest, they tend to favour religion as they believe it gives them moral back-up.
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How to actually succeed at stopping terrorism
First, context. Who all remembers The Troubles? It was the name given, with stereotypical British understatement, to a decades-long terror campaign in Ireland and the, well, trouble that arose from it. Like al-Qaeda and ISIS, the Irish terrorists claimed religious motivation for their reprehensible acts.
Unlike al-Qaeda and ISIS, the Irish terrorists are basically no longer a thing.
It's not like British authorities didn't try really hard to wipe them out. They tried every trick in the book--the same book, by and large, that we're employing against Islamic terror--including police action, military action, and signing truces with the terrorists. (Which, terrorists being terrorists, generally ended up not being worth the paper they were printed on. But in the end, it was Amercans who put a stop to The Troubles, and not even by something they did, so much as something they stopped doing.
The USA is home to a significant Irish immigrant population, many of whom live in New York or nearby states, and it was not uncommon for many of them to send support to Irish terrorists out of a misplaced sense of kinship. (It looks a lot less ugly when all the ugly stuff is going on literally half a world away.) But 9/11 changed everything: suddenly it was very unacceptable to support terrorism!
That source of funding dried up almost overnight, and The Troubles came to an abrupt halt without the terrorists' principal source of funding.
So, applying the lesson learned here, how do we shut down Islamic terror?
It's a bit of an elephant in the room, an ugly truth that no one wants to acknowledge, that a significant amount of funding for them comes from legitimate oil revenues, and one of their patrons' largest customers, if not the largest, is the USA.
If we were serious about fighting terror, we would divert some. serious money from the military budget to fund research and development of electric cars, Hyperloops, and renewable energy, and export the technology worldwide, doing everything we can to make petroleum fuel obsolete.
But just try getting the turkeys in DC to sign off on that plan...
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Re: How to actually succeed at stopping terrorism
Just that would hit the oil industry pretty hard. Tanks, planes, and ships use an awful lot of oil.
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Re: How to actually succeed at stopping terrorism
This can be done by NOT bombing third world nations into the stone age so our corporations can steal their national resources, and by NOT trying to make the world safe for Christianity, by destroying the basic social infrastructure of nations who have competing religious beliefs.
This would of course, make the Military Industrial Complex and many Christians rather unhappy.
It would however, save a shitload in taxes.
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It really is amazing how quickly a country goes from "free speech is important" to "our speech is important".
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Let me start the censorship ball rolling . . .
politican critters . . . start your engines . . .
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If I'm reading this right the proposal is: US government seizes a copyright and then issues a takedown notice on material covered by that same copyright.
So...now that they own (or control) the copyright does that mean the US government would be censoring itself ???
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You know with the torture report... or any information they produce about their nation wide local surveillance.
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The correct thing is to make this "bad content" available to a wider audience where people can comment on how wrong it is. Or wow, throw your own official government propaganda on top. Plus, you'd think it would perfectly suit their intentions to try and scare everyone into supporting other things they want to do in the name of The War On Terror.
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It is curious that Obama recently had to amend a law preventing the government from assisting terrorists legally, to allowing it without being charged with treason. If they were not already breaking said law there would have been no need to retroactively make it legal.
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Everyone is missing a big point here
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They want U.S. law modeled on E.U.-style "hate speech" codes that even prevented the Rotherham police force from investigating the rape epidemic there -- because identifying the girls' attackers would be offensive to Muslims and might (gasp) cause Britons to think ill of them. Guess what happened when the truth finally leaked...
I shudder to think that there might be enough of these "useful idiots" in public office someday to force a constitutional convention or get enough states on board to amend or scrap the 1A. Look how many of them are in the Ivy Leagues, where a significant chunk of our legislators have come from to begin with -- including presidents. Long march of the institutions and all that.
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So make it legal for them to assign anyone's copyright to a non-terrorist like the USA? Where would the head office be, Guantanamo?
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Unfortunately, I also don't see the part where the heirs of the Author/Inventor, or other assignees are given rights either. By rights, the Author would have to be the one to sue regarding copyright, not an owning company, not the "Estate of", not the "inheritor of".
Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't the battle I'm pointing to already been lost? Folks here have pointed out particular cases to illustrate other points. Perhaps they could point out where this one went off the rails?
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The 1790 Act was adopted close in time to the Constitution itself, and —at least the courts do generally presume— the Second Session of Congress was both familiar with and faithful to the meaning of the Constitution.
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Re:
2) This is trying to set a dangerous precedent whereby a country claims the copyright over, and the ability to remove from the internet any information that it does not like. Other countries could use this to claim ownership over and takedown anything that they consider promoting terrorism inside their borders, such as China considering that articles promoting free speech to be promoting terrorism.
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