Trump Calls For Partial Shutdown Of The Internet, Doesn't Understand What He's Saying
from the huuuuge dept
I have to admit that I find Donald Trump's presidential campaign fascinating. Or, rather, I find its survival to this point fascinating. What amazes me about it is that the Trump campaign exhibited a strong commitment to not actually putting forward any detailed policy prescriptions, except for a few general policy ideas that mostly conflict with the party whose nomination he's seeking. And those policy ideas he does express have generally been either despicable, impossible to implement, or both. Deporting six million Latin Americans? Yeah, that just isn't going to happen. Putting a hold, however temporary, on legal immigration by using a religious test to keep Muslims out of the country? That violates the very founding document an American President would be tasked with upholding. Also, it's disgusting.
But this is what you get when you have a candidate whose campaign is reflecting base anger rather than actual knowledge and know-how. And Trump's latest policy proclamation is further proof that potential voters are listening to someone who simply doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. If, like me, you're a sadist, then you too were watching the latest Republican debate on CNN the other night when Trump was asked several times if he would consider censoring the internet to combat ISIS. He eventually said he would, in a very Trump-ish way.
"I would certainly be open to closing areas where we are at war with somebody. I sure as hell don't want to let people that want to kill us and kill our nation use our internet."So that nobody thinks this is pulled out of context, Trump was actually confirming what he'd said at a campaign stop days earlier.
"We're losing a lot of people because of the internet, and we have to do something," Trump said at a rally earlier this month. "We have to go see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them maybe in certain areas closing that internet up in some way."So, the policy prescription here is for all of us to caravan over to Bill Gates house and discuss how to close up that internet over coffee and scones. Putting aside the concept of the internet being "ours", as in America's, which is dumb to begin with, most people have taken Trump's idea to be one of two things: either we're shutting down the internet in Syria and Iraq, or we're filtering the internet both inbound and outbound on the American side to keep ISIS from reaching our citizens.
As some have already written, the concept of us shutting down the internet in Syria is unworkable.
This post claims it would be easy, just forge a BGP announcement. Doing so would then redirect all Syrian traffic to the United States instead of Syria. This is too simplistic of a view. Technically, the BGP attack described in the above post wouldn't even work. BGP announcements in the United States would only disrupt traffic to/from the United States. Traffic between Turkey and ISIS would remain unaffected. The Internet is based on trust -- abusing trust this way could only work temporarily, before everyone else would untrust the United States. Legally, this couldn't work, as the United States has no sufficient legal authority to cause such an action. Congress would have to pass a law, which it wouldn't do.This is technical speak for "the internet routes around censorship", especially so when you're talking about an outside force attempting to flip the off switch on internet access to an entire geographical region. It's impossible as a practical matter and downright stupid strategically on top of it. Note that ISIS controlled territory is absolutely spilling over with innocents that have no interest in ISIS ruling their lives. Trump would have us cut off one of our few access roads to those people? Why? They're the ones we're going to eventually need on our side.
ISIS has to pay for telecommunications links to route traffic through other countries. This causes ISIS to share the IP address space of those countries. Since we are talking about client access to the Internet, these are probably going through NATs of some kind. Indeed, that's how a lot of cellphone access works in third world countries -- the IP address of your phone frequently does not match that of your country, but of the country of the company providing the cellphone service (which is often outsourced). Any attempt to shut those down is going to have a huge collateral impact on other Internet users. You could take a scorched earth approach and disrupt everyone's traffic, but that's just going to increasingly isolate the United States while having little impact on ISIS. Satellite and other private radio links can be setup as fast as you bomb them.
Well, since that idea of censoring the internet wouldn't work, maybe Trump was talking about putting the blocks in place on the America side. You know, by blocking access to and from certain parts of the web so that they don't reach American users and American users can't reach them. There is a model for this, of course, though it's a bit strange to watch a Republican candidate pitch a Chinese censorship model as policy.
Of course, if we really wanted to exclude ISIS from the US internet, there is a model of how to do it: China's Great Firewall. That's the censorship regime the Chinese government uses to try to keep subversive ideas like democracy and human rights out of their country. In principle, we could adopt the same tactics here in the United States, building a virtual wall around the United States and filtering all of the information flowing in and out of the country to try to prevent jihadists from communicating with Americans.It also still wouldn't work, because, again, the internet routes around censorship. Anyone that believes that the great firewall of China hasn't been penetrated is laughably naive. It may have limited access, but it hasn't cut it off. And that's in China, where there isn't a built-in fundamental value into the history of the citizenry centered around free speech and free access to information. So, not only an inept idea, but against the very Constitution that Trump would be swearing to defend.
And for this to work, we'd have to not only prevent ISIS members from posting on US websites but also prevent impressionable Americans from browsing websites the US government deems too ISIS-friendly. This would, of course, be a massive violation of the First Amendment, and Americans are unlikely to stand for the US government deciding which websites they're allowed to read.
Look, we make a habit around these parts of not ragging on either Republicans or Democrats, because that isn't what this site is about. And fortunately, this post has done neither, because Trump is neither conservative nor liberal. He's just a guy whose only ideas seem to be censorious and authoritarian. Given his wish to censor the internet, I'd say he's disqualified himself from the office.
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Filed Under: donald trump, internet, policy expertise, terrorism
Reader Comments
The First Word
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You guys accidently a word
"we're gong"
"gong"
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Remember kids...
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This guy is literally fear itself.
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There's a popular hashtag in Europe, #yournomuslimbruv. Muslims are being very vocal about telling would-be terrorists that they're not following the teachings of Islam, and that they're not Muslims.
Which makes the terrorists eligible to enter America under Trump's plan.
Trump's plan to stop Muslim data packets at the border (presumably IPv6 will identify them as such) would also stop that data from reaching the NSA's shiny new data center in Utah. But if you can't use it for detecting terrorists, there's always domestic surveillance.
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There's a popular hashtag in Europe, #yournomuslimbruv. Muslims are being very vocal about telling would-be terrorists that they're not following the teachings of Islam,
correction:
The guy on the recording wasn't a muslim so how he comes to know who is and isn't a muslim is a bit of a moot point.
Sheikh Ramadan Al-Buti of Syria was one of the most widely respected traditionalist Sunni scholars before he was killed in 2013 by a suicide bomber. The year before he had been listed as number 27 in the ‘The Muslim 500’, an annual inventory of the most influential Muslims in the world. According to Al-Buti, the claim that Islam is a peaceful religion was a ‘falsehood’ imposed upon Muslims by westerners to render Islam weak.
I'd take his word for it before that of some random non-muslim.
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Careful! You're not allowed to say stuff like that! Even implying that Islam isn't all peace and love is now considered a hate crime! Why do you hate Muslims?
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...Which makes no difference to the many Muslims who repeated the sentiments. Nor to the many Muslims who have stated as much well before the subway and Paris attacks.
As for the rest, Jerry "feminists and lesbians caused 9/11" Falwell is equally prominent in Christianity. And yet he doesn't speak for the vast majority of Christians, nor would most agree with many of his claims. The same goes for Pat "we should assassinate world leaders we don't like and God should destroy Disney World because gays" Robertson, and plenty of other prominent Christian scholars.
And of course by any standard that Islam isn't a religion of peace - scholars' quotes, scripture, or the actions of it's followers - neither is Christianity.
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I think Mandy Rice Davies applies to that one.
And of course by any standard that Islam isn't a religion of peace - scholars' quotes, scripture, or the actions of it's followers - neither is Christianity.
That isn't actually true - but in any case it is merely a tu quoque argument - and hence irrelevant.
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Sam Harris is not a friend of Christianity - but here are his thoughts on the subject.
"Anyone familiar with my work knows that I am extremely critical of all religious faiths. I have argued elsewhere that the ascendancy of Christian conservatism in American politics should terrify and embarrass us. And yet, there are gradations to the evil that is done in name of God, and these gradations must be honestly observed. So let us now make sense of the impossible by acknowledging the obvious: there is a direct link between the doctrine of Islam and Muslim terrorism. Acknowledging this link remains especially taboo among political liberals.
. . .
While the other major world religions have been fertile sources of intolerance, it is clear that the doctrine of Islam poses unique problems for the emergence of a global civilization. The world, from the point of view of Islam, is divided into the “House of Islam” and the “House of War,” and this latter designation should indicate how Muslims believe their differences with those who do not share their faith will be ultimately resolved. While there are undoubtedly some moderate Muslims who have decided to overlook the irrescindable militancy of their religion, Islam is undeniably a religion of conquest. The only future devout Muslims can envisage—as Muslims—is one in which all infidels have been converted to Islam, politically subjugated, or killed. The tenets of Islam simply do not admit of anything but a temporary sharing of power with the “enemies of God.” Devout Muslims can have no doubt about the reality of Paradise or about the efficacy of martyrdom as a means of getting there. Nor can they question the wisdom and reasonableness of killing people for what amount to theological grievances. In Islam, it is the moderate who is left to split hairs, because the basic thrust of the doctrine is undeniable: convert, subjugate, or kill unbelievers; kill apostates; and conquer the world"
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Actually a much misunderstood comment - What Falwel was actually doing was in the Christian tradition of "mea culpa" - blaming oneself.
Now where he leaves that tradition is when he moves the blame away from himself personally (the proper Christian position) onto others within his community.
When Jerusalem was sacked by the Arabs in 634 Patriarch Sophronius said something similar - but he didn't exempt himself and locaise the blame onto others.
Even Jerry Falwell didn't suggest a violent response.
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No he isn't he is the leader of a minority sect.
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So, Falwell is just leader of a minority sect when he says things you don't like. But, when a Sunni scholar speaks then suddenly he speaks for all of Islam and not just whatever sect of Sunni Islam he represents?
Got it.
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With Islam there is a problem because there is no such organisation so anyone one might quote is inevitably a minority leader. However there are some pretty big minority leaders who have said similar things in the past - eg Khomeini or the ambassador who justified Islamic piracy to Jefferson. One could also quote Mohammed of course - there's plenty of material there.
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Falwell on the other had is basically the self appointed founder of his own sect. Insofar as he belongs to a tradition it is a tradition that says everyone reads the bible for themself.
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That tradition also damns to hell anybody who interprets it differently to their interpretation. Just like you refuse to accept any other interpretation of Islam that differs from yours.
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You can do the same with a lot of people in all sorts of religions and even secular traditions. That doesn't mean that everyone else within their fields agrees with them. Wars have been fought over such disagreements, even within Islam.
It's just more excuses as to why the most hateful Christians can get away with their rhetoric, yet every Muslim should be considered by the standards of their most hateful members even if they disagree. It's why Syrian refugees should be feared, even though many of them are escaping violence and persecution, not committing it. It's an excuse for hatred and bigotry, while pretending that whatever you like is inherently superior.
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So... you agree that there is no such thing as a majority spokesman for the religion, yet you say that the guy you quoted speaks for the entire religion? Do you honestly not see how this lacks internal consistency as an argument?
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Would you take his word over a Muslim who says differently? If so, why?
I can find Christians who preach hatred and use the Bible to support it. Would you consider their word over and about any Christian or non-Christian who states that is not correct? If not, why do you not apply that standard to Muslims?
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Because he isn't just any old muslim - he is a muslim scholar who was well respected in the community.
I can find Christians who preach hatred and use the Bible to support it.
So what? That's just a tu quoque argument and even prominent atheists like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins - hardly Christian apologists - don't buy it.
This isn't about Christians so why do you bring it up?
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There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. There must surely be other scholars, some of whom would reach a different conclusion? Do you take their interpretation with equal weight?
Also, why does one person within a religion with no central authority and a huge number of sect that despise each other get to speak for the whole religion, scholar or no? The Pope doesn't speak for all Christians, why does random scholar get to speak for all Muslims?
"even prominent atheists like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins"
Prominent assholes, too. They often have good things to say, but they're deliberately inflammatory, sometimes deliberately misleading if they think it advances their point and I don't really care what they have to say any more then the religious assholes.
"This isn't about Christians so why do you bring it up?"
Because these discussions are usually filled with double standards. A Muslim does something bad, they represent all of Islam. A Christian does something bad, they're a lone wolf, a psycho, not a true Christian, etc.
I ask just to gauge how biased a person is. If you apply different moral standards to an action because the perpetrator belong to group X rather than group Y or Z, you're biased and I like to know what I'm dealing with.
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Well obviously lack of space prevents me - but I can find plenty more. I quoted a relatively moderate person - after all the real extremists blew him up! I could also quote Al-Bagdadi - the so called Caliph of IS who has a PhD in Islamic studies - which is more than you or I - or any of our moderate muslim friends have.
A Muslim does something bad, they represent all of Islam. A Christian does something bad, they're a lone wolf, a psycho, not a true Christian,
Well firstly you must admit that that analysis could be correct or it could be wrong. There is a way to find out which it is.
You need to look at the following:
1) Do they, in fact attribute their actions to their faith?
If not then they are just a lone wolf/psycho etc - and not a true muslim or Christian.
2) If so does their attribution make sense logically when compared to their tradition? If not then although they believe themselves to be a true follower of their faith, they really aren't.
3) If it seems that their attribution is to some extent at least plausible then one could also confirm it by asking if their action is similar to the actions of the most revered fathers of their tradition. (For Christianity this would be Jesus and the Apostles - the disciples plus Paul. For Islam this would be Mohammed and the so called Salafs or companions especially the "rightly guided Caliphs".
I suggst you go and look up the biographies of these people for yourself.
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No I ask whether their action is justifiable on the basis of the texts and traditions of their faith and the history of its most revered exponents.
btw you seem to be biased in the direction of appearing unbiased - rather like a lecturer I knew who never awarded a mark below 60 or above 70.
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Because there isn't room in a comment for 1.5 Billion quotations!
Feel free to come up with a counter quote together with the supporting evidence that it relates to the authentic Islamic tradition rather than just something some muslim in the west would like to be true - or nmaybe would like you to believe.
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OK, how about a link to your evidence that all 1.5 billion people believe exactly the same way? Because logic and history don't appear to agree with that assertion.
"rather than just something some muslim in the west would like to be true"
Why do the opinions of Muslims in the west not count? It seems strange that you'll claim that all Muslims are duty bound by the same opinion, then roundly reject a large number of their stated beliefs.
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Consider the debate about encryption. Those who argue that backdooring encryption cannot be done without collateral damage are seen as biased by the politicos who know nothing of the technology.
Superior knowledge will often appears as bias to those who lack it.
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However, since I consider it irresponsible and silly to ask for truth about a unanimous poster's personal life, or life style, I won't attempt to make you lie about such associations or incomes.
I'll just use my imagination. :)
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I've been offline for a few days. I do love the fact that you spent a hour and a half composing multiple replies dancing around the question, yet your conclusion seems to be "I know more than you so nuh".
However, you avoided answering the very simple question I posed - why do you hold every Muslim to one standard (and atheists by the look of things), but refuse to hold any Christianity responsible in the same way? You've danced around the issue, but mainly by trying to find excuses to reject equal treatment. You've not stated why the disgusting views of people like Falwell can be waved away, yet those of certain Muslims cannot be questioned as part fo the faith.
It makes no logical sense. All long-running religions have disputes, schisms and differences of opinion. There are many Muslim sects, some of whom hate each other to the point of violence. To think that billions of people agree with a particular viewpoint because it's "part of their religion" ignores the reality of how people think and behave, as well as the fact that there's no centralised authority. It also ignores the huge number of peaceful Muslims who manage to co-exist with others, something that makes no sense if every one of them is duty bound to violence as you claim.
I'm looking for consistency, honesty and intelligent debate, things that people like yourself never seem to be able to provide.
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What we deserve
Honestly, the way we've been acting as a country recently, can you say we deserve anything more than Trump. It seems a lot like a fitting punishment to me.
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Re: What we deserve
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Bush taught us that a president can't be impeached for
a) Election fraud.
b) Starting a war on false pretences against the wrong enemy the ultimate result of which is religious/ethnic cleansing of the very people who we should have been trying to protect!
c) Inventing a contrivance to imprison people outside the protections of either US law or the Geneva conventions.
I could go on.....
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Or... by doing so, you've populated both congress and the senate with people who agree with him, meaning that even if the man himself is somehow removed, you still have his government. Also, you've given them carte blanche to appoint the next few supreme court judges who will be seated for a few decades.
Wouldn't you rather cast your vote for a government that will reduce the influence of people like Trump without burning the country to the ground first?
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Re: Re: Re: What we deserve
1) Impeachment is ONLY an accusation or indictment. The Senate would have to conduct a trial presided over by the Chief Justice AND vote for conviction to remove from office.
2) Next really important step: who would be the Vice President at that time? Because if the Senate votes for conviction and thus removal from office the Vice President becomes President. Something to consider for all the candidates is who might be their Vice President in case something happens.
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It would almost have to be an improvement over Trump.
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Having used the internet won't make them any more knowledgeable about technology. Internet access has become as simplified as cable TV and people understand it about as well.
Don't believe me? Find ten average internet users and ask them what an IP address is, or how DNS works. At least nine of them won't have the faintest clue what you're talking about.
How about something less technical; Find an average user who uses an actual email client rather than webmail.
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Fine. Not knowing is not the problem. It's the arrogant, ignorant attempts to demand changes that won't work, while ignoring the input of those people who do know what they're talking about.
It's not that we want a CCIE to sit in the Oval office. It's that people who not only refuse to learn, but don't even have a passing familiarity with the things they're trying to control, are better off not being allowed to pass decrees.
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Agreed, but how are we supposed to make that happen?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: how are we supposed to make that happen?
Adding Environmental Accounting to GAAP would help. Adding soil quality standards to federal crop subsidies would help. Using algorithmic fuel taxes to flatten out fuel prices so that alternative energy markets have more price certainty would be BIG help. Implement carbon markets to allow for innovation in environmental asset management (what econ guys call tragedy of commons) would create a complete second economy in this country.
Automotive style energy standards for new residential construction would help. Standardizing interstate right of way negotiation for heavy rail would help preserve and export markets as fuel prices continue to rise.
Socialize healthcare is good, not because it's freeloading. It is good because it mitigates one of the biggests risks in entrepreneurship. Constraining entrepreneurship is the only reason to allow the corporate sector to dole out health care like lords to serfs.
If you want new markets, you have to have new companies, and that doesn't happen if every new technology is aggregated into a mega corp before it defines a market.
You can't make the old guard smarter. You can prevent them from assembling into conspiracies. There are MORE than enough smart guys out there who aren't getting a shot because of fraternalistic market suppression. There just need to be enough independence in financial markets, to allow people worthy of investment risk to shine.
Shatter the ice. The smart will bubble up to the top.
Overturn Citizens United. Reinstate Glass Steagall. Bust The Trusts.
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It's never plain sailing in other systems, of course. But, there are far too many people who are actively voting against what they actually want or need just so that they're not voting for the other "team". It's a sad comedy when you see situations like the one recently reported in Kentucky, where the governor who ran on dismantling their healthcare system was apparently voted in by the people who depend on that system just because the other guy would have been in favour of gay rights.
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I found this link to be about as insightful into the proposed GOP policies as I would expect the debates to be about substance. Perhaps it is far more in depth in coverage than the national media could do.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/12/16/lupe-fiasco-delivered-some-next-level-de bate-analysis-last-night/?wpmm=1&wpisrc=nl_pmpol
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Fixed that for you.
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US President over God
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By thst I presume that you mean that the original inhabitants of North America were scared of the immigrant europeans. I'd say that they had a point!
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I believe he was talking about the racism and anti-immigrant hysteria of the Irish, French, Chinese and Japanese immigrant/racism that occurred before and during the early years of the founding of the United States, i.e. the Alien and Sedition Act, the "China Town" and anti-asian sentiments.
But that too.
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Since when have presidents been concerned with upholding the Constitution? Was Obama upholding the Constitution when he argued in favor of the indefinite detention provisions of the NDAA?
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As a result, it makes perfect sense that it would seem, to our silly, simple minds that the government is violating the Constitution in every way they can possible think of, but that's just because we don't have access to the official(but classified) version, where everything they're doing is completely legal.
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I'm calling it.. Trump is the Antichrist.
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There goes any credibility he may have had right there, if the person he wants to talk to about Internet management is the guy who so famously did not understand the Internet that he blew the biggest example of First Mover Advantage that the world has ever seen and his company has still not recovered from it, 20 years later.
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marking words
What poor sods were you inflicting the debate on, and how?
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"You could probably bomb fiber optic cables and satellite links as quickly as they got reestablished. But then, you could disable ISIS by doing the same thing with roads, bridges, oil wells, electrical power, and so on."
I'm not certain of the ability of ISIS/ISIL to obtain satellite equipment for backup links, and I'm certain that destruction of critical infrastructure is usually considered a first step approach during war times since Sun Tzu's the Art of War. From the submarine cable map there are three basic connections heading to Tartous, Syria: http://submarinecablemap.com/#/landing-point/tartous-syria
The land based fiber lines are probably well documented by Bashar al-Assad's government which is fighting ISIS as well. I'm sure he had plans to at least know how to cut off the internet after the Egyptian crisis in 2011. Considering I would say Syrian politics over businesses were at an even more dictatorship state than Eqypt. I definitely think this is possible, but it would probably cut off the NSA/GHCQ intelligence gathering and cause more damage to intel than damage to the rebels which probably are just physically leaving to neighboring countries to do intelligence.
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Including American citizens? Also, how do you tell who's a Muslim?
"Because there was no way to tell the good from the bad."
You're far more at risk from your fellow non-Muslim Americans than you are from scary foreigners, about whom this is equally true. Yet, you'll happily give up your rights and values because the terrorists managed to scare you a little. You must be so proud.
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Skip to 1:37 to see how to tell who's a Muslim:
http://on.cc.com/1ltzOgG
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National trade and immigration embargoes are vastly different from embargoes based on religious tests. You DO understand that, right?
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Don't agree *at all* with GP, but that has happened too...I seem to recall that Irish Catholics were turned away during the 1820-1850 time period. The so-called quota system for American immigration was caused by the sudden influx of Irish Catholics immigrating to the US who were different from the existing, mostly Protestant communities.
Maybe not as direct, but I believe similar discussions were made by the Know-Nothing movement in the 1850s. Then again, history isn't my strong suit.
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Your Disappointed High School English Teacher
And you wonder why I gave you a D-
sadist
[sey-dist, sad-ist]
noun
1.
Psychiatry. a person who has the condition of sadism, in which one receives sexual gratification from causing pain and degradation to another.
2.
a person who enjoys being cruel.
masochist
[mas-uh-kist]
noun
1. Psychiatry. a person who has masochism, the condition in which sexual or other gratification depends on one's suffering physical pain or humiliation.
2. a person who is gratified by pain, degradation, etc., that is self-imposed or imposed by others.
3. a person who finds pleasure in self-denial, submissiveness, etc.
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Re: Your Disappointed High School English Teacher
:p
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Re: Re: Your Disappointed High School English Teacher
- Marquis de Sade
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Huh
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Re: Huh
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Re: Huh
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Everything between the top end of his neck and beneath that ridiculous wig.
10 points to Gryffindor if someone can grab and run away with it when he's on a walkabout...
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Trump is the decoy
If it turns out to be Trump vs. Clinton; Clinton will win, and the end-result is just what was intended: The authoritarians win.
Same as happened with Obama vs. Romney. Or Obama vs. McCain (although this one was a bit different: Whereas McCain clearly was a decoy, Obama not only presented the saner choice, but also pretended to be the opposite of what he was or became).
The only remotely interesting situation (which might, just might, lead the USA again away from their path towards fascism) would be something like Sanders vs Stein vs. Rand. Anything else, and the bigger authoritarian (prohibitionist, slave-holder, war-monger, spook, ... ) will win.
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