Trump Campaign Threatens To Sue NY Times For Sharing His 1995 Tax Returns
from the that's-not-how-this-works dept
It's kind of amazing how quickly Donald Trump's lawyers seem to threaten any media outlet for publishing information about him that he doesn't like. The latest target is the NY Times which ran a big story over the weekend with some leaked pages of his 1995 tax returns, suggesting that the guy who repeatedly claims he's great at business, reported personal losses of $916 million. We'll leave the analyzing of the tax returns to those who do that sort of thing (though I will recommend reading this analysis, which suggests that it's likely a key part of the NYT article is wrong concerning Trump's ability to use those losses to avoid taxes for 18 years), but we did want to focus in on something more relevant to what we discuss here at Techdirt. The legal threat that the Trump campaign sent to the Times in response:Separately, a lawyer for Mr. Trump, Marc E. Kasowitz, emailed a letter to The Times arguing that publication of the records is illegal because Mr. Trump has not authorized the disclosure of any of his tax returns. Mr. Kasowitz threatened "prompt initiation of appropriate legal action."Unlike most of the nine other times (at least) during this campaign that Trump has threatened to sue a media property for their reporting, this one may at least have some tiny marginal legal basis -- though it's certainly not a slam dunk. What is true is that publishing someone's tax return without authorization is a federal crime.
But, it's not that simple. The NY Times would have a pretty strong First Amendment defense that what they're doing here is very much in the public interest. After all, Trump himself has made his tax returns (and his supposed acumen as a business man) an issue in this campaign by refusing to release them, despite every other major party candidate for President releasing tax returns going back decades (and even Trump himself mocked Mitt Romney for taking too long to release his own tax returns in 2012). So there's no argument here that this isn't newsworthy. It clearly is, and that certainly helps the NY Times's case. To me it seems like it should be a clear First Amendment win for the Times -- and plenty of others agree.
Plus, there's the fact that if Trump actually did sue, he'd have to admit the returns are really his and are accurate.
On top of that, Trump himself is regularly talking about getting information out there that hasn't been disclosed through authorized means. Remember, he's "joked" about asking hackers to release Hillary Clinton's emails. And just a few days ago, he tweeted for people to go searching for a former Miss Universe's sex tape in order to discredit her comments about how Trump had treated her.
Who knows if Trump is seriously going to pursue legal action -- in the past he's happily admitted to filing SLAPP lawsuits designed to cost whoever he sues money, even if he knows there's no chance of succeeding -- but if he does, it could become a pretty important First Amendment case... from someone who has already made it clear that he has no respect at all for the First Amendment.
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Filed Under: donald trump, first amendment, lawsuit, tax returns, taxes, threats
Companies: ny times
Reader Comments
The First Word
“NYT is wrong
EVERY American citizen is guaranteed certain rights and protections by our Constitution and our laws. Doesn't matter what job they hold or what office they seek. Tax returns are protected, and that's that. Now, if Trump wants to release them, that's fine. But if he doesn't, that's his right. Marla may have the right to release her returns, but since it is a shared return, she would also need his authorization.Public interest doesn't matter. There's no evidence to suggest that a decades-old tax return is of any use to the public other than fodder for a political smear attempt. That's the only reason it's newsworthy (to some). There is no public "right to know" about his private life.
Now if he had been caught by the IRS decades ago filing fraudulent returns, then we could consider that actually newsworthy to everyone. Certainly the IRS had to have crawled all over that return before accepting it. And they apparently found it okay, or there is a post-audit version that hasn't been released and that is more accurate.
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Of all days for my tiny violin to be in the shop.
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I bet C-level Times people are asking their subordinates about what they published and why. Taking on Trump is a big deal, but is it worth risking everything for?
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Re:
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Sue Them!
Trump should sue them. Let it go to court. And let's see what the results are. If the Times broke federal law, then they should be punished. After the Gawker loss, I would be interested to see if First Amendment trumps federal law.
Because someone in the IRS is dirty and they need to be outed and prosecuted. The IRS is already the most powerful, most well funded terrorist organization in the world. When they start getting partisan, that makes them even more dangerous.
But like most things with Trump, I suspect his bark is worse than his bite.
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Re: Sue Them!
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This does not prevent them from being sued of course.
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Re: Re: Sue Them!
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I'm not sure who I'm cheering for here. I like transparency, but at some point people deserve some privacy, even at the level of the Presidency. "It's just sex and everyone lies about that" was Clinton's excuse that got him off impeachment, but he still lost his license and was disbarred because he made that lie in a court filing and to me that was the appropriate punishment. It may be that the NYT is doing the public a favor about pointing out Trump's use of tax loopholes (although I will point out Clinton has used the same loophole), but in doing so it may well face serious consequences and I'm ok with that.
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Which is a plausible scenario we should be concerned about.
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Step 1 provoke or create an emergency.
Step 2 use it to seize power.
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He doesn't have to admit they are his
But I haven't heard any denials from him or his lackeys, so I doubt that's the route he'll take.
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it has been reauthorized about every six months with nary a peep from the media...
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NYT is wrong
Public interest doesn't matter. There's no evidence to suggest that a decades-old tax return is of any use to the public other than fodder for a political smear attempt. That's the only reason it's newsworthy (to some). There is no public "right to know" about his private life.
Now if he had been caught by the IRS decades ago filing fraudulent returns, then we could consider that actually newsworthy to everyone. Certainly the IRS had to have crawled all over that return before accepting it. And they apparently found it okay, or there is a post-audit version that hasn't been released and that is more accurate.
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No they don't. Especially when you champion yourself as a good guy, are marketed to children, but go around banging you friend's wife while cheating on your own wife.
Was PeeWee Herman's masturbation in a porn theatre not news?
"got him off impeachment"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton
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Congress addressed this problem in the early 1970s, and finally passed a law in 1976 to limit the President's 'emergency' powers. Since then, presidents have declared at least 53 states of emergency - not counting disaster declarations for events such as tornadoes and floods. Many are still in effect, like one declared by Carter on the 10th day of the Iranian hostage crisis.
The 1976 law requires each house of Congress to meet within six months of an emergency to vote it up or down. That's never happened.
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So, to clarify, your position is that while it's illegal to release someone's tax returns without that person's consent, all that's needed for a First Amendment exemption is for that person to not consent to releasing their tax returns?
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Contrast that with something NOT of national importance. 9/11 for example, and the investigation into what warnings the President received.
The White House wanted to limit any appearance by the president to just one hour spent with two of the commissioners. Bush II did eventually meet with the Commission, but only under stringent conditions: Bush had to have Dick Cheney at his side, testifying at the same time; testimony was given in private and NOT UNDER OATH; no press coverage was allowed; and no recordings or transcripts were made of what they said.
Surely you can see the difference.
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Time to Decide
If something is against the law, then it is against the law *no matter who does it* or *why*. If the NYT decides to break the law "in the public interest" - FINE. They can do so AND TAKE THE LEGAL CONSEQUENCES. Believe that strongly in something that breaking the law is necessary to out it? Publish it and then Go to Jail to show your commitment. Otherwise, you're a poser and a hypocrite.
or
Let's just get rid of the charade and acknowledge that anyone rich, powerful, popular or politically correct enough can do whatever they want and give up the pretense of the legal system we have now. I've visited countries like this, and let me assure you it DOES work as a form of government - as long as you are rich, powerful, popular or politically untouchable.
This article supporting blatant illegality (the NYT SAID they would break the law to release Trump's tax records, remember?) as long as it's against Trump is another example of how TD blatantly leans left in some of it's posts.
How about some outrage against Hillary or the NYT using the EXACT SAME LEGAL TAX BREAKS as recently as 2015? No? Doesn't fit the agenda? Instead, let's focus on how litigious Trump is for suing them for breaking the law and how it might be "justified". pffft.
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The story is MUCH bigger than this single return
That means that the NYT went out on a limb. Not very far, and not injudiciously, but they did.
Trump could saw that limb off and render their reporting moot in five minutes...by releasing his full tax returns. Given his hatred for all media (modulo those who are sycophants and/or paid by him), he'd love to do that. Nothing would make his day more than embarrassing the newspaper of record.
But he hasn't done that.
Why?
Because what's in his tax returns is worse.
So he can't. As much as he wants to in-your-face the NYT, and right now he wants that as much as he wants anything, he can't.
So the question is not IF there's something worse. The only question is what it might be.
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Legal requirement
I doubt any of this will effect the election.
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Re: NYT is wrong
The general public is preparing to vote for the person who will become the leader of this country for the next four years. As a member of that general public, I believe we are entitled to know whether Donald Trump is paying income taxes like (mostly) everyone else does—in other words, if Trump is giving back to the country he wishes to govern. The Clintons may not pay taxes at a rate people consider “fair” given their wealth, but as far as we know (thanks to the release of their tax returns), they do actually pay their taxes.
We're also entitled to know whether his business interests present any conflicts of interest with his potential presidency. One report I’ve heard lately said he broke the trade embargo with Cuba to do business there; if he becomes POTUS, will he continue to ignore laws and regulations he considers too much of a burden? (And that doesn’t even get into his possible connections with Russia.)
His charitable giving is also an issue. We know the Clinton Foundation does a heavy amount of charitable giving, and we know the Clintons personally give a sizeable amount towards charity. How much, if any, charitable giving has Donald Trump done lately? How can we expect him to be someone who cares about the people he wants to govern if he doesn’t care enough to give some of his (reportedly) immense wealth to the less fortunate?
Trump’s tax returns are absolutely a matter of public interest. That he has kept them hidden from public view for so long, in defiance of a decades-old tradition that even his inter-party political rivals would not break, makes me think he’s hiding something that would sink his campaign (if not his public image). The general public has a right to know such things about the man they might choose to lead them for the next four years.
If someone has made a convincing argument that says we don’t, I haven’t yet heard it.
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Re: Time to Decide
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Re: Re: NYT is wrong
I am more interested whether there are some of his own chips in the taxpayers' money he is going to spend, or whether he takes no personal hit when doing yet another strategic bankruptcy.
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Not a federal crime
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Re: NYT is wrong
> and our laws. ... Tax returns are protected, and that's that.
There's no Constitution protection for tax returns.
Just saying.
Arguably there's no Constitutional basis for the IRS, but that's another issue.
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Personally, I want to know how Bill and Hillary, in 2000, were so 'broke' (as they claimed at the time) that they bought a 1.2-million dollar home without cash. I mean, I've been between paychecks and 6-packs before, and I've never ONCE went out and bought the Playboy mansion, scouts-honor!
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Re: Sue Them!
Funny, if you changed the names and asked a liberal 'If Trump had done , would you want him prosecuted for it?' - amazing how that shoe suddenly fits.
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if you read some of Trump' books, he openly talks about his unsuccessful ventures. In his TV series, the Apprentice, he openly states that he was at one point in time, nearly a Billion dollars in personal debt.
This tax return was apparently return addressed to Trump Tower... This old tax return was intentionally sent by Trump's to NYT. For what purpose?
To have the liberal main stream media bring up his past debts, so that his campaign can show that he rebuilt his wealth, even after being in such a difficult position.
In fact, NYT wrote an article on Trump in the 90's calling him the "Comeback King" precisely because he was able to rebuild his business empire even after such a dramatic period of struggle.
NYT, liberals, and the large media corporations have fallen head first into this trap set by Trump.
Now you have articles coming out that say the NYT has used the same exact tax loopholes that they accuse Trump of using... As well as the Clinton Foundation...
As I see it, and the majority of the American people, Trump has yet again tricked the left and the large media corporations into actually helping him.
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Re: Re: NYT is wrong
Oh, and the question isn't 'whether he paid appropriate taxes', this is spoke like a traditional liberal 'redistributionist'. The real question is, 'did he meet the requirements of U.S. Tax Law, or did he violate it?' Since he hasn't been audited and found guilty of anything from that period 21 years ago, I hazard to guess this is just more Liberal Drool, coated in crusty socialist media sleeze.
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Hillary Clinton on the other hand, has been committing treason against this country for an extended period of time. Selling access, favors, and decisions by the Federal Government for personal enrichment...
Yeah i wonder who would be worse - the candidate who has no filter and says crazy things, or the candidate that has been openly committing treason against this country for her own personal gain...
great question you bring up
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See, we can dig until we hit that nerve on the end of YOUR elbow, then we don't want to talk about it anymore. Right, Komrade?
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Re: Re: Time to Decide
I mean, I'm sure it doesn't bother you that Hillary is blatantly lying about any or all of this, but since she's wanting to be President, you'd think that between this, and the Benghazi slaughter, you would be a little concerned.
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Re: The story is MUCH bigger than this single return
This one, simple little fact is missing from ALL REPORTING, and it absolutely STINKS! So he lost $900-million due to bad real estate deals that year. So the losses gave him a 'save' on taxes for subsequent years. The one AND ONLY question is, DID HE FOLLOW TAX LAW? The answer screams YES, the media is silent.
If he followed tax law, that's all you can ask. He never said he was Gandhi, and he is NOT required to be a philanthropist, just pay his taxes and follow tax law. Seems he did, and the liberal media will never admit it.
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No true
The liberal media has made it an issue, not Trump. If the media went after Hillary's private email server, Benghazi, her $150 million in earnings while she was in the State Dept, her treatment of Bill's women and her poor health like they did Trump's tax returns it would be a completely different election right now. And I say that as someone who is not pro-Trump. But I guess we should all expect your biases to be on display here as well.
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If he had clearly declined the release, that would have been a cheap move, but still a clear one.
Instead, he tried finding stupid excuses like the hypocrite he is: he said that he would release his tax returns but, what a pity, he can't because he's currently being audited. (It's true that he's being audited, it's a lie that it prevents him from releasing them.)
Tap-dancing around the truth, outright lying... That's the kind of "issue" he creates for himself.
If he was honest about it (can anyone really believe that?), he should be thankful that someone took it upon himself to leak then. :)
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Re: Re: Re: NYT is wrong
I would like to draw your attention to the fact that turning the debate into a 'he said, she said' is precisely what the both of them want.
The facts are pretty simple. He didn't disclose. Somebody committed a crime. NYT has compounded the effect of that crime and may be liable.
In all probability, there are irregularities with his taxes. But any tax professional will tell you, that once you get past a a few thousand journal entries, the likelyhood of accounts balancing on first review gets pretty small.
The idea that things are squeaky clean on the Clintonian side is just as unlikely. And if they are that clean, that is more of a red flag than if they aren't. Again, accounting for complex customers is a janitorial experience by definition.
So the two sides throw molotov cocktails at each other, and the country watches fervently gobbling up the detritus in ever more perverse ego-gluttony.
The other guys are stupid, irrational etc. etc. It doesn't matter who are what they are, because WE are right, and WE are loyal to (pick your candidate) and THEY will look after us ( clinching laughter ) when they win.
What is wrong with this picture, is that this isn't how it works in this country. Loyalty here is to an idea. And if reasoned debate is neutralized, then that idea can not be served in any way. And the function of this charade, is to neutralize reasoned debate.
Which is to say, that both sides are warring on the Constitution. The unholy trinity functions as distinct, but equally detestible henchmen in the service of that mayhem.
You can pick from the menu, or you can walk outside and eat in the truck. Personally I prefer a pan of diesel flavored jiffy pop cooked off the engine block, than the roasted turds both of them are trying to pass off as ambrosia.
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I wonder
(oh, and that was NOT 20 years ago)
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Re: Time to Decide
Wait... what?
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Re: Re: The story is MUCH bigger than this single return
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Re: Re: Re: NYT is wrong
Or, we're just wondering how someone who likely pays zero taxes has any kind of vested interest in fixing said tax code.
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This site has published examples of police saying that refusing to consent to a search means you're suspicious and should therefore be searched. That logic and this logic are both faulty, for the same reasons.
And if he had released his tax records, would he have released records from over 20 years ago? That seems like it's rather far back.
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Re: No true
Yeah, just a few more investigations, and I'm sure you'll find something this time.
If only we had investigated pearl harbor, 9/11, Iran-Contra, and Watergate with the same level of effort.
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iinteresting....
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-03/fbi-allowed-2-hillary-aides-destroy-their-laptops-newly-exp osed-side-agreements
was this in 1995 as well?
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Wat??? What they knew, when they knew about it, and what they did or didn't do isn't a matter of National Security??? Do tell.
"even the President should have some privacy for matters not of national importance."
When the point has been proven that just not Hills but others as well have set up private email servers to avoid scrutiny... I agree if Hills wants to talk with Chelsea about life matters then that should be private. The second you send an official email from that address/server then the privacy issue goes out the window.
You have to accept that as a public figure allegedly serving the public, your rights as an ordinary citizen are diminished. It's part of the job. Do you expect privacy using work email? Any normal human being at this point in the world knows and has most likely signed an agreement that the use of company email for personal use is prohibited, just as using a private email for business purposes is forbidden.
These concepts are not new at all. If Hills was on the up and up with her email server and only used it for personal correspondence, the investigation would have said so and myself personally would have defended her rights to private conversations with non government entities.
So if I am expected to accept the fact, as a normal citizen, that all emails sent through an ISP are captured and stored by the NSA, then Hills should accept the fact that all her emails are too. Even more-so in her case as a public figure as the NSA is capturing them and there is an archive solution in place to preserve emails. And she knew. Thats why she had a server.
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As much as the story kindles the conspiracy theory of mainstream media hating him, the legal threatening would seem completely unnecessary to keep such a story boiling.
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Re: Re: Sue Them!
"Liberals believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights."
As far as I have noticed in this political climate there may be one or two Liberals left. Surely there are none in this Presidential election.
"Liberals don't have to follow the law."
I guess you were under a rock during GWB's tenure.
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Re: Re: NYT is wrong
I have a relative that used to have an acoustical tile business. When Trump was doing stuff in Atlantic City, my relative was hired to do a lot of work. The poor guy sunk everything he had into this job. Well Trump declared bankruptcy and almost ruined my relatives life. Trump still made millions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/nyregion/donald-trump-atlantic-city.html?_r=0
https://www. reddit.com/r/politics/comments/4nlffd/how_donald_trump_bankrupted_his_atlantic_city/
Both these ass-clowns are unfit to hold office.
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Trump obviously agrees with this.
I say that not just because he's demanded that other candidates release their tax returns. (Mitt Romney for example.) And not just because he repeatedly promised to do so himself.
It's because if his "playing the system" is "smart", then why is he the first candidate in 40 years NOT to release his taxes? If there's nothing wrong, then why not?
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As to the meat of your argument: Yes, what the Clintons have done with their finances and their taxes are as important as what Trump has done with his. But the Clintons have been as transparent as possible by releasing several years' worth of tax returns, and the lack of articles pointing out any explicit illegalities or shady dealings lead me to believe that, ethically dubious though they may be, the Clintons are no more “corrupt” or “sleazy” than any other career politician.
Donald Trump is another matter entirely. He has avoiding releasing any tax returns—even ones not under audit!—and he has refused to discuss even the general contents of those returns. By doing so, he has hidden several things from the general public that they have a right to know about a presidential candidate (e.g., who he does business with, how much he's worth, how much he gives to charity, how much does he pay in taxes).
The release of tax returns is meant to be a move in transparency—something that gives the general public a chance to see if this person running for president has any questionable business dealings or hasn't been paying taxes for some time. It gives the general public a chance to determine whether they think a candidate will govern in the interests of all citizens or just those who might best benefit the candidate. For all of Clinton's faults, at least we're aware that she's wealthy, that she made a lot of money via speaking engagements, and that her campaign is partially funded by Wall Street types. No one can claim similar knowledge of Donald Trump.
At some point, you'll want to ask yourself, "Why is that?"
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But since he didn't, he has to deal with a problem of his own making.
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Re: NYT is wrong
This is (yet another) error on your part. By signing a joint return, he already gave that authorization.
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Re: NYT is wrong
This is (yet another) error on your part. By signing a joint return, he already gave that authorization.
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Re: iinteresting....
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Re: Re: The story is MUCH bigger than this single return
Those of us who are superior to you -- which wouldn't take much -- noticed that he's being audited. When the audit is done, and it's not yet, maybe the IRS will take action. Maybe they won't. But since they are in fact auditing the tax returns of a presidential candidate (absurd though that is) they're going to take their time. They're going to be careful. They're going to triple-check everything.
If he committed some egregious violations of US tax law, then I'm sure they'll hold him accountable. If they're minor violations, they might let him slide. (Contrary to the fear-mongering tactics of the various companies hawking their IRS negotiation services, they simply don't have the resources to pick every nit. They focus on what they have time for.)
But -- and let me spell this out for you, because clearly you're not smart enough to figure it out on your own -- what's in his tax returns may be worse and it may be completely legal simultaneously. Thus it may be something that the IRS doesn't care about, but we, the voters, will. And he knows it.
Now I know that in your blind frothing rage against everything you perceive as LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL you have difficulty putting two cogent thoughts together, but do try to use what little brain you have to work through this. Maybe if you spend all afternoon on it you'll grasp it by dinnertime. Yay you!
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Re: Re: The story is MUCH bigger than this single return
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Re: Re: The story is MUCH bigger than this single return
Then he shouldn't have anything to hide.
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Then there's Bush II, Cheney, Rove and everyone else connected to the Bush White House email controversy, tens of millions of White House emails sent through private servers. Millions of them lost. The security issues were no different.
And Jeb!, who as governor used his own server against the rules and as Florida governor to discuss security and military issues such as troop deployments to the Middle East and the protection of nuclear plants.
2016 candidates Scott Walker, Marco Rubio, Chris Christie, Rick Perry and Bobby Jindal each have their own email scandals. Mitt Romney too.
And of course there's all those Congressman who claim that they "don't use email", while having their aides use their private accounts to avoid FOIA requests.
It was standard procedure for pretty much everyone to avoid government email servers. If the DOJ were to prosecute, it would be "DOJ vs. Washington."
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By not releasing his taxes yet Trump is breaking with a tradition. Thus, people are questioning why he is breaking the tradition and as with all that is kept secret, it fuels conspiratorial FUD about him. If he cared about unwritten rules in politics he likely would have released the taxes already, but he is being consistent on that issue, I guess. That is part of why he is hated and feared by several of his peers in politics and controversial far beyond the endless digressions he puts into words: Fuck tradition and unwritten rules!
The leak is a completely different issue and should be weighed on its own merit against the different rights involved. But usually the publisher will be allowed to bring the shit to the public, while the source would be in trouble.
By clearlt reading more into the quoted line than intended, James has just send people out to hunt the scary scarecrow!
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Clinton getting a BJ was declared to be of vital national importance by the Republicans. They did everything but demand that he get re-blown on the Senate floor. ("We must know exactly what happened!!!) Everything had to be done in public and under oath, and every word published.
Bush II on the other hand could testify about 9/11 only with Dick Cheney at his side testifying at the same time; testimony was given in private and NOT UNDER OATH; no press coverage was allowed; and no recordings or transcripts were made of what they said.
This is a crystal clear statement on where America's National Security priorities are. What more do you want?
It's the same thing with Hillary's mail server: It's still just peachy-keen that Secretaries of State Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice used private accounts for classified emails. In fact Colin Powell advised Hillary to do so.
Then there's Bush II, Cheney, Rove and anyone else connected to the Bush White House email controversy, tens of millions of White House emails sent through private servers. Millions of them lost. With the same security issues.
And Jeb!, who as governor used his own server against the rules and as Florida governor to discuss security and military issues such as troop deployments to the Middle East and the protection of nuclear plants. 2016 candidates Scott Walker, Marco Rubio, Chris Christie, Rick Perry and Bobby Jindal, who each have their own email scandals. Mitt Romney too. And of course all those Congressman who claim that they "don't use email", while having their aides use their private accounts to avoid FOIA requests.
Look, I fully agree with you on why Hillary had a server and why it shouldn't be allowed. But all the cases listed above demonstrate that America in general and Washington in particular disagrees.
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Re: Re: NYT is wrong
There is no "right to know" in the Constitution. If you're so convinced it's there, then the right thing for you to do is ask the IRS if he's paying his taxes. Just because you and others in the public are nosy doesn't mean you have the right to know any more than whether he's violating laws. Same goes with charitable giving. He can claim it, and you can believe or disbelieve, and vote your conscience. Beyond that, no one appointed the NYT or any of us to be Trump's oversight. He gets a lot of public visibility once he's in office, if elected.
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Re: Re: NYT is wrong
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Re: Re: NYT is wrong
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Re:
Additionally, Trump doesn't have the kind of liquid capital needed to burn the Times to the ground. He's well financed, yes, but most of his holdings aren't liquid. He's been pouring most of his liquid capital into his campaign, and talking about further spending significant chunks of capital on the campaign.
Trump doesn't have the resources available to bleed the Times dry on this.
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Re: iinteresting....
- The FBI destroyed the laptops,
- AFTER searching them
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Re: Re: Re: NYT is wrong
So what? We, The People of the United States of America, have a duty to figure out if a presidential candidate is qualified to hold the office—and part of any such deliberation should be knowledge about a candidate’s finances and business dealings. We’re electing a leader, and we should know if that leader will have interests other than the American public in mind while they govern the country. It’s part of the reason why the release of such information has become something of a formality: It helps the public decide whether a candidate is trustworthy when they talk about helping the American people.
Sure, no election has ever come down to a candidate's tax returns. But such information can only help to better inform voters about a candidate…which might be part of the reason Trump doesn’t want to release his.
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Remember the transition?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: NYT is wrong
You're still free to draw inferences from the fact that he won't release them.
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Re: Re: Re:
Yes, please do if it'll keep you busy for a while. I am completely and entirely fascinated by what light you can shed on this monumental 47 year-old international incident that shaped generations, and will have ramifications for years to come.
/s
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It's my understanding that they weren't very GOOD charges.
Yes, what Clinton did (using a private server for public records) was unethical, but this is a means by which many many officials avoid having their dialogs become public record. That, the political culture, is what needs to change, and probably through a compromise other than having the Russians surprise hack-and-publicize server data for us.
Trump bypasses it by having an aide send and receive emails on his or her account, which is an other bypass and is just as unethical.
And while Clinton may have committed various kinds of treason as an official (as noted in the West Wing early on, it is somewhat hard to avoid), Trump is probably going to (literally!) nuke someone he doesn't like, because he can't understand why we don't use our nuclear weapons.
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Re: Re: Sue Them!
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Re: Re: Re: NYT is wrong
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Re: NYT is wrong
Yes, and one of those rights is the freedom of the press.
What we see here is Trump's right, for the privacy of his personal financial records, conflicting with the New York Times' right to publish them. And under those circumstances, in determining whose right is more important in this particular situation, yes, public interest absolutely *does* matter.
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Re: Re: Re: NYT is wrong
No, but there *is* an entire amendment stating that "there's no right to ____ in the Constitution" is a bullshit argument.
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Re: Re:
He has enough to get a case started and litigation finance groups would give him the rest if it looks like he could win. The Times is still on very shaky financial grounds and I don't think it would take much to knock them down.
> He's been pouring most of his liquid capital into his campaign
I don't think that's true. The reverse does seem to be true though - his campaign is spending money on Trump properties.
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Re: Re: Re:
Sure, go nuts. Sounds a lot less fun than going to Hawaii to investigate Obama's birth certificate, though.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: NYT is wrong
He is not breaking with the disclosure standard because of "irregularities". Even while there is the potential for some smart aleck finding stuff that the IRS overlooked with such a big client, that would not be worth the political fallout.
Nope, there obviously is an elephant in this story. And since Trump is not likely to be speculating on being able to hide an elephant from the IRS indefinitely, the elephant is likely legal, but at the same time hideous to the average voter and/or highly interesting to business competition.
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Re: Time to Decide
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Re: Re: The story is MUCH bigger than this single return
Huh.
Out of curiosity, what's your opinion on Hillary Clinton, Skeeter?
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Re: No true
Yes, the tradition for presidential candidates to disclose their taxes was started by noted liberal Richard Nixon.
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Re: iinteresting....
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False equivalency
1) When doing a Google search to confirm the story, the only results I got were from right-wing sites. If this were true, wouldn't sites like CNN, Time, and the Washington Post be talking about it? Oh, right, those are "mainstream media" sites out to get Trump so they won't talk about this story.
2) This is even more false equivalency from the Trump camp. Last I looked, the NYT wasn't running for president and rejecting 40 years of tradition by not releasing its tax returns.
The NYT didn't post a loss of over $900 million, spread it out over 18 years, and claim to be a successful businessman (that I know of).
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Re: It's my understanding that they weren't very GOOD charges.
One good way of changing political culture is to refuse to elect those who behave in ways you don't like, you know.
"Trump bypasses it by having an aide send and receive emails on his or her account, which is an other bypass and is just as unethical."
Trump is not yet an elected or appointed official, and thus FOIA requirements do not apply to him... do they?
"And while Clinton may have committed various kinds of treason as an official (as noted in the West Wing early on, it is somewhat hard to avoid"
WHAT??? It's hard to avoid committing TREASON???
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SLAPP HAPPY
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Please!... no emails!
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I Disagree With This Small Argument
I don't agree with that at all. Following that logic, any document I choose to remain private and confidential could be considered news because of my failure to release it.
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just to be clear
"NONE OF THE ABOVE"
(Just so yall can label me properly)
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Re: I Disagree With This Small Argument
We're not talking about an unusual or outlandish request here (like, say, a birth certificate). We're talking about something that is so common and expected that failing to meet that expectation is a news story in itself.
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Legalities
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Re: Re: Re:
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Re: Re:
I do not see any reference to any political party in the post to which you replied, and yet you assume it was partisan ... why?
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Treason is such an... ugly word.
Actually a better way to say it is that it's very easy for someone with prosecutorial discretion to interpret an action as treason, to the point that it might be difficult to find national officers who couldn't be so prosecuted.
We just, generally don't.
FOIA requirements do not apply to him... do they?
You know, I don't know. Most of the people we elect to national office are already (allegedly) subject to FOIA requests because they are in other public positions. So I don't know what of his campaign records (if any at all) become public record if he should become elected. I believe the laws are set up to collect a lot of it for historical records, at least to go into presidential libraries. But I'm guessing in that regard. Still, even though accountability and historical records are recognized as good reasons to capture communications of public officials, they don't like to be held accountable, and they may not like their lives (though relevant) to go down in history, so it is very common practice to try to circumvent those regulations. I doubt seriously that Donald Not paying taxes makes me smart Trump would be any different.
One good way of changing political culture is to refuse to elect those who behave in ways you don't like, you know.
Aaand once again, thanks to our first-past-the-post election system and the consequential two parties we have, you get one vote against the guy you want the least, not for the guy you want the most. Voting for a third party is gambling on a microscopic chance that your guy will get a plurality, but at the expense of your vote against the guy you least like.
History has demonstrated the laws of probability are way against a third party getting elected at a national level.
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Re: I Disagree With This Small Argument
Any refusal to disclose can be interpreted as covering up secrets.
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Re: just to be clear
Not that either vote does much good.
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Re: Re:Clinton Tax return
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tax returns are unimportant, what is, is a man's hair.
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TAXING ELECTION
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Please!... no emails!
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Re: I Disagree With This Small Argument
Maybe we have another "third party candidate"...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"There are two very important differences among Clinton, Secretary of State John F. Kerry, and former secretaries Powell and Rice when it comes to email practices.
The first is that Clinton is the first and, to date, only secretary of state to exclusively use a private email address and server to conduct her business as the nation’s top diplomat. All of the other names above maintained both a private and a government-issued email address. That alone doesn’t make her guilty. But it does make her unique. [The Washington Post, The Fix, 5/25/16]"
http://mediamatters.org/research/2016/05/27/reporting-hillary-clinton-media-get-facts-wrong -colin-powells-private-email-use/210613
"Like Clinton, Powell used a personal email address. However, there’s a big difference: Clinton hosted her email on a private server located in her home. Powell did not."
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/09/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton- said-my-predecessors-did-same-thin/
She hosted her own server, and when she got caught, she tried to delete her emails to cover her ass. I expect they all sent email from a private email address, that at one time or another could be considered classified. Shame on them all. But SHE was the only one that did so from an email server hosted at her house, then tried to delete the evidence when she got caught. THAT is the difference, that is what makes her a criminal and a liar.
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Re: TAXING ELECTION
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Bush II, Cheney and the rest in the White House email controversy used a private server at the Republican Party headquarters. (Again, millions of emails went missing.) Do you HONESTLY think it makes a difference whether the server is in your own home or at your friends' place?
Does it make any difference for Jeb!'s private server or all the others mentioned above?
Hillary and her staff routinely deleted spam. Apparently this wasn't against the rules.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I'm not saying not to prosecute. I'm only saying that it should be done on a level playing field. It would be "DOJ vs. Washington."
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Re: Re: No true
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Re: Not a federal crime
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Re: Re: Re: Re: NYT is wrong
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/hillary-clinton-whitewater-indictment-drafts-229093
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If they are guilty, then they need to be prosecuted Democrats, Republicans.. the lot of them. Hillary was doing it, and then lied about it and tried to cover it up by deleting emails. The only reason she doesn't have a contempt charge on her right now is, the FBI did not have her under oath when she lied. BUT SHE STILL LIED!!! Roger, She's a lying ass politician that got caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Someone who is running for President RIGHT NOW. If Bush, Rice.. or any of those other people were running for president right now, and they had done the same thing... I would be screaming at the top of my lungs to go after them. But they are not... If they broke the law and we can go after them all these years later, then great.. but they aren't running for president right now so hopefully they can't poison the well any more than they already have.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I totally hear you. I understand your frustrated because some of these other people got away with it.. or not.. whatever. If we can go back and prosecute them, then lets do it man... lets go get them. But that doesn't change the fact that Hillary got caught, fucking lied about it, tried to cover it up, and now she's RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT! WTF!
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Re: It's my understanding that they weren't very GOOD charges.
How fast would you and I get slapped with destruction of evidence and making false statements charge if we had done that?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NYT is wrong
"There's no right to ____ in the Constitution" is a garbage argument because it says *right in the Constitution* that just because a right is not explicitly defined in the Constitution doesn't mean it's not a right. This is a fact you would know if you had actually, you know, read the Constitution.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
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Re: Re: I Disagree With This Small Argument
It is NOT an issue because he "refused to show them".
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Re: Re: Re: No true
Point being, Nixon released his taxes -- and yes, he'd already run for President twice and been elected once by then; I don't see how that's relevant -- and so have fifteen out of the sixteen subsequent major-party candidates for President.
When a major-party presidential candidate chooses not to release his taxes, yes, that's news. No, it wouldn't have been in 1968. Which would be relevant to this conversation if it were currently 1968.
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Re: Re: Re: I Disagree With This Small Argument
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
No, it really isn't. If he's really that interested in something that happened in 1969, he deserves the sarcasm.
He's not talking about 20 years. He's talking about 47.
You know what else happened in 1969?
The first moon landing.
And for what it's worth, I'll bet any insight he has coincides somehow with how the US faked the moon landing.
But if you'd like to bring up Whitewater, by all means do so. Perhaps you could convince Congress to open yet another investigation that will cost taxpayers millions, while finding nothing. Seems par for the course (Google "Benghazi Congress Waste").
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
But no, you want to bend space so that you can place the goal posts where it affects ONLY a Democrat, and ignore Republicans even when that fails.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Holy Shit Roger. Stop being a victim of this ridiculous two party system. Just because I think Hillary is a liar and a criminal, does not mean I favor or condone the behavior of the Republicans. I have repeatedly stated that we should be going after the Republicans as well. If they are guilty, then lets prosecute them. My focus is on Hillary, not because she is a Democrat, but because of all the people you mentioned in your post with a history of this crooked behavior, she is the only one currently running for President.
Stop being part of the problem. She's a fucking crooked politician. So are many Republicans. Lets hold them accountable.... all of them, Democrat, Republican... whatever.
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How fast would you or I get indicted?
And I'm just as outraged that our society has castes especially when we were promised a state of equals.
That also seems to be a norm regarding our candidates. Trump was still never prosecuted for raping a thirteen year old (more accurately coercing sex from her under threat of extortion). Even famous Hollywood directors so accused have to flee to France, but Trump can still be a major party candidate for President of the United States.
Well, he won't be short of interns there.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
.
Secondly, the FACT is, if the "Commercial Server" can't be trusted to ENSURE S-E-C-U-R-E I-N-F-O-R-M-A-T-I-O-N M-A-N-A-G-E-M-E-N-T of its contents, then, W-H-A-T T-H-E H-*-L-L D-O-E-S T-H-I-S S-A-Y A-B-O-U-T T-H-E R-E-S-T O-F U-S? Why aren't our "Security Advisers" ALL OVER the inefficient and ineffective Commercial OEMs re their inability to produce a V-I-A-B-L-E P-R-O-D-U-C-T?... A-N-D F-O-R E-V-E-R-Y-B-O-D-Y? And!... W-H-Y T-H-E H-*-L-L I-S S-U-C-H C-O-M-M-E-R-C-I-A-L I-N-E-F-F-I-C-I-E-N-Y A-N-D I-N-E-F-F-E-C-T-I-V-E-N-E-S-S H-E-R P-R-O-B-L-E-M?
.
In other words, if the Commerical Server she was using (add in, her cellphone!) was to a REASONABLE STANDARD, then I wouldn't be having this "text-off" with you! And!... frankly!... if government information was inadvertently leaked, or hacked, I wouldn't be blaming HER, I W-O-U-L-D-B-E B-L-A-M-I-N-G W-H-O-E-V-E-R A-L-L-O-W-E-D S-U-C-H S-H-*-T T-O B-E S-O-L-D A-N-Y-W-H-E-R-E I-N A-M-E-R-I-C-A! And!... if such sh*t is to be sold, it's to be sold with a M-A-N-D-A-T-E-D W-A-R-N-I-N-G, T-H-A-T T-H-E U-S-E O-F S-A-M-E C-A-N-'-T B-E T-R-U-S-T-E-D!
.
Please!... no emails!
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Re: How fast would you or I get indicted?
If Trump did what you say he did, then we need to prosecute him. Hell, Bill Clinton was accused 17 times of sexual harassment or flat out rape, but we still voted him as president.... TWICE! Lets stop being stupid and start holding these people accountable!!!
If they are guilty, then they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Trump, Clinton (both Clinton's), Rice, Kermit the Frog.... whoever.
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Re: Re: How fast would you or I get indicted?
What do you mean, "our" and "we"? The US has had a two-party system since 1792. (And given that Aaron Burr was a major-party nominee in 1800, allowing criminals to participate isn't exactly a new trend either.) The only way I "allowed myself to be corralled into" that is by being born here.
Again, what do you mean by "we"? I was born in 1982. I never voted for Clinton, Bush, Dole, *or* Perot.
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Re: Re: Re: How fast would you or I get indicted?
We the people. It means exactly what I said. Just because some of these things started before your born, doesn't mean your void of responsibility. It is every citizens duty to hold their Government accountable.
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
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