In The Rush To Blame Facebook, Come The Calls To Suppress Ideas People Disagree With
from the this-won't-end-well dept
Yesterday I wrote that people rushing to blame Facebook for the election results were being ridiculous, and it generated a fair bit of discussion (much of it on Twitter). And this was before NYMag's Max Read went out and wrote an article literally titled Donald Trump Won Because of Facebook. Here's the crux of Max's argument, which is similar to the argument many others have been making:Meanwhile Bloomberg had a big piece, saying that Facebook (and Twitter) employees are "grappling with their role" in helping to elect Trump.The most obvious way in which Facebook enabled a Trump victory has been its inability (or refusal) to address the problem of hoax or fake news. Fake news is not a problem unique to Facebook, but Facebook’s enormous audience, and the mechanisms of distribution on which the site relies — i.e., the emotionally charged activity of sharing, and the show-me-more-like-this feedback loop of the news feed algorithm — makes it the only site to support a genuinely lucrative market in which shady publishers arbitrage traffic by enticing people off of Facebook and onto ad-festooned websites, using stories that are alternately made up, incorrect, exaggerated beyond all relationship to truth, or all three. (To really hammer home the cyberdystopia aspect of this: A significant number of the sites are run by Macedonian teenagers looking to make some scratch.)
All throughout the election, these fake stories, sometimes papered over with flimsy “parody site” disclosures somewhere in small type, circulated throughout Facebook: The Pope endorses Trump. Hillary Clinton bought $137 million in illegal arms. The Clintons bought a $200 million house in the Maldives. The valiant efforts of Snopes and other debunking organizations were insufficient; Facebook’s labyrinthine sharing and privacy settings mean that fact-checks get lost in the shuffle. Often, no one would even need to click on the story for the headline to become a widely distributed talking point, repeated elsewhere online, or, sometimes, in real life.
Online (on Facebook, of course), current and former employees debated the company's role as an influencer. Bobby Goodlatte, a Facebook product designer from 2008 to 2012, according to his LinkedIn, today said the company's news feed was responsible for fueling “highly partisan, fact-light media outlets” that propelled Donald Trump's ascension to the presidency. “News feed optimizes for engagement,” Goodlatte wrote. “As we’ve learned in this election, bullshit is highly engaging.”These stories sound convenient. And my Twitter feed is chock full of people -- often people in the media who are already "angry" about Facebook "stealing" their ad revenue -- making similar noises about how Facebook needs to "fix" this.
Fix your platform. You're a media company and with great power comes great responsibility. https://t.co/fsGSSEkIMK
— Kelly Fincham (@kellyfincham) November 10, 2016
Dear @twitter and @facebook - do the right thing, and soon. Maybe started as a 'platform,' or tool etc. yes but we're way past that now. https://t.co/gqA2FS3akX
— Kaan Yigit (@kyigit) November 10, 2016
When the dust settles, we gotta have a conversation about Facebook's responsibilities to the public. https://t.co/jK55IjfXoo
— Matt Pearce (@mattdpearce) November 9, 2016
Too Simplistic:
Blaming the Facebook algorithm for sharing fake news is too simplistic in that it gives the algorithm too much power and takes the responsibility away from human beings as living, thinking creatures. We love to blame the tools. It's practically a national pasttime, searching for the moral panic du jour to blame for people doing things that some other people don't like or find problematic. It's much easier to blame the tools.
Even worse is that it assumes millions of people are pure idiots. And, I know, among many people this may be a popular opinion right now. That if they supported "the other side" they must be complete idiots. But that's wrong. There are idiot supporters of every candidate in this election -- and we can all highlight our favorite that somehow got onto the news. But lots and lots and lots of people who voted for Trump weren't doing so because some Facebook algorithm "tricked" them, but because they legitimately believed that the status quo wasn't working and was problematic, and an awful lot of "the establishment" wanted them to shut up about what wasn't working. You can argue that they were misled about what was and what wasn't working, but again, that goes back to the idea that tens of millions of people are so stupid that they change their minds based on fake stories on Facebook.
Too Dangerous:
I write an awful lot about Section 230 of the CDA and the idea of "intermediary liability" protections and I know that some people's eyes glaze over at those terms. But there's a fundamental underlying principle behind those things and it's this: if you blame a platform for the actions of its users, you end up with massive censorship and dangerous limits on free speech and innovation.
The people calling for Facebook to "fix" this problem don't see where this leads, but it's not good. In various conversations I've had in response to yesterday's article, I keep drilling down and trying to see what people think the "solution" to this "problem" is, and it inevitably comes back to something along the lines of "well, Facebook needs to stop the fake news from spreading." If only it could. Fake news, rumors, conspiracy theories, echo chambers and "bubbles" predate Facebook by a long shot. While the musical Hamilton is reminding people that some of our founding fathers were known to fight hard against each other, not everyone is aware of the spreading of rumors and lies between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams as they campaigned for the presidency in 1800:
Jefferson secretly hired the famed pamphleteer James Callendar, who had previously seriously damaged the reputation of Adams' fellow Federalist Alexander Hamilton, to paint Adams and the Federalist party as a friend to British royalty and Adams as being bent on starting a war with France in order to further an alliance with King George. More to the point, Callender described Adams as a "hideous hermaphroditical character which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman."Or read about the history of the 1828 election between Andrew Jackson and John Quincy Adams, and you might notice more than a few parallels to today -- including the spreading of fake stories about each candidate by surrogates. Here's just a snippet:
Adams' Federalist surrogates also brought out the proverbial long knives. A Federalist publication described Jefferson as "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father." Allegations were made that he cheated his British creditors, was a supporter of French radicalism and assassinations of the aristocracy, and that he made a habit out of sleeping with his female slaves.
One Adams newspaper even wrote, "General Jackson's mother was a common prostitute, brought to this country by the British soldiers! She afterward married a mulatto man, with whom she had several children, of which number General Jackson is one!"In 1876, opponents of Rutherford B. Hayes spread the rumor that he had shot his own mother. In 1928, supporters of Herbert Hoover started spreading rumors that (the Catholic) Al Smith was connecting the newly built Holland Tunnel in NY all the way to the Vatican so that the Pope would weigh in on all Presidential matters. In 1952, Dwight Eisenhower supporters distributed pamphlets claiming that his opponent, Adlai Stephenson had once killed a young girl "in a jealous rage."
Point being: fake news is spread in basically every election for the US President in history. It didn't take Facebook's algorithms, and it won't go away if Facebook's algorithms change.
In fact, it's likely to make things even worse. Remember the mostly made up "controversy" about Facebook suppressing conservative news? Remember the outrage it provoked (or have you already forgotten?). Just imagine what would happen if Facebook now decided that it was only going to let people share "true" news. Whoever gets to decide that kind of thing has tremendous power -- and there will be immediately claims of bias and hiding "important" stories -- even if they're bullshit. It will lead many of the people who are already angry about things to argue that their views are being suppressed and hidden and that they are being "censored." That's not a good recipe. And it's an especially terrible recipe if people really want to understand why so many people are so angry at the status quo.
Telling them that the news needs to be censored to "protect" them isn't going to magically turn Trump supporters into Hillary supporters. It will just convince them that they're even more persecuted.
Other than "censoring" certain content, the only other suggestion I seriously heard was someone suggesting that Facebook should force-feed its users opposing views. Like that's actually going to change anyone's mind, rather than get them pissed off again. And, once again, this seems like people failing to take responsibility for their own actions. If you don't have any friends who supported Trump, don't lump that on Facebook.
There are legitimate questions about whether you can better inform a populace. But censorship and force-feeding information is general paternalistic nonsense that totally misunderstands the issue and misdiagnoses the problem. As Clay Shirky noted earlier this year, too many Hillary supporters thought that "bringing fact checkers to a culture war" would win out, when that's never going to happen. Fighting Facebook's algorithim is more of the same nonsense. It's based in the faulty belief that those who voted for "the other" are simply too dumb to understand the truth, and if they just got more truth, they'd buy it. It's not understanding why they voted the way they did. It's looking for easy scapegoats.
Facebook's algorithm is an easy target, but it's even less likely to solve a culture war than fact checkers.
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Filed Under: blame, cda 230, censorship, donald trump, fake news, intermediary liability, presidential elections, section 230, social media
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Goodbye First Amendment, or what's left of it
Fortunately, the President cannot act autonomously and force this on his own, though he can direct the DOJ to take certain actions that might make a mess.
Unfortunately the Republican party will have formal control over Congress, and they might be just deluded enough to go along with the new Presidents machinations.
Oh for integrity in government and democratic (not to be taken as Democratic, or for that matter Republican) principles in our Republic.
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Yup.Just like "Facebook is the reason Trump won the election" you asshat.
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But seriously, that is not the fault of the publishers, that is the fault of the readers, so not so much burn as we might think!
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It is some crazy hubris to look at 50% of the people in the country and believe that they are the ones that are idiots and easily swayed by false news stories and bad politics without at least considering that it might be YOUR 50% that is actually wrong.
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The problem is not that the 'other side' has a load of ignorant sheeple.
The problem is that both sides have an excessive abundance of them!
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On both sides of the isle, they have a distorted version of reality because all their friends think the same way, and they chase off anyone that doesn't think that way.
And to quote you "I love the way people think stupidity and insularity falls along ideological lines. What a hoot."
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Just as people lash out at those they do not understand, those very same are less likely to extend the olive branches necessary to help them understand or come to a compromise.
In some cases a compromise is not possible. This is the root of all human conflict and as history has proven, there is no way around it. No manor or amount of hand wringing, good will, decency, or understanding will change it. This is usually a problem with the War is never the answer types. If War is never the answer then you have no intellectual argument for using force of any kind to bring people into line and that just leaves you to be a slave!
Some people have a line somewhere in the sand and you shall not cross it without the consequences!
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US elections are a beauty pageant for ugly people.
There is no need to try dialogue with the other side in an election since there are enough members of your political party to rile up for "war" not to bother with having a policy or try to attract the dreg called "independents". "Get out and vote"-campaigns are so much easier to use instead of bothering with shit like having a policy. That stuff is just another flank for super PACs to tear you a new one on, ya know?
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Divide the people and usurp their will, and in no particular order! A political party serves no other purpose!
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As a european looking at the european parliament and the complete chaos it is, I would have to disagree with a completely non-party approach. But the primary process in as bipartisan a country as USA, is a surefire way to create partisan zealotism and screw over independents, moderates and people with more complex views.
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The right on the other hand, have no choice but to get a large dose of liberalism from nearly every news channel, news paper and college in the country. There is a reason the left are called low information voters.
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That "the right" are subjected to endless liberalism from everywhere they turn and do not need to be introspective in any way shape of form. And one is to assume that you think they are high information people?
While "the left" is comprised of low information people who continually complain about how biased some media is while refusing to be subjected to the propaganda from same.
This is an oversimplification of some bullshit opinion unsupported by facts/data. Everyone is biased to some extent, some way more than others. And then there is the equivalence bullshit, these are not equivalent even though neither "side" is correct - they are not the same by any means.
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Oh, the partisan/political framing. Oh, the stereotypical blaming of opponents as savages. Read some history, and I mean both of you! You sound like millenials.
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What it does have is right and further right.
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#1. The citizens is responsible for being informed. Not the Citizens. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.
#2. Democracy? What Democracy? When was the last time you had a chance to vote in or on a law either directly or indirectly? Yes, some states so some of these democratic things at their local levels, but on a national level, we are not a democracy of any kind. The moment we do become one we will soon destroy ourselves!
#3. You are 100% right that the responsibility is with the Citizens for a democracy to function. But since those same citizens refuse to inform themselves... well when you 'understand' that, then you will KNOW why a true democracy will only commit suicide!
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I just biff'd!
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Representative democracy works the same way. Remove the information, remove the choice.
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But I don't see how there is an informed choice for a non-member of one of the big parties? The primaries are amazing at weeding out people that could be concieved as moderate or appeals to independents.
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Well, but you know...they ARE idiots.
Not because they supported X and not Y: they were idiots a long time before X and Y were running for office.
There are people who thing global warming is a hoax. People who think vaccines cause autism. People who think Ayyadurai invented email. ;) People who think creation myths are real. People who think aliens are all over the planet, never mind that damn near everyone carries a camera with them 24x7 and nobody has a photo of one. People who think trickle-down economics works. People who think seat belts don't work and are fascist. People who think foreign terrorists are a viable threat to US citizens (you're more likely to be killed by your own furniture). People who reply to spam. People who think horoscopes are real. People who think denying their children medical care and praying for them instead is a good idea.
And so on. Keep in mind that whatever metric you use to assess intelligence (and yes, I know that IQ measurements are flawed, so pick one you like) that half the population is below the middle of the curve...and the middle of the curve isn't very bright.
This isn't their fault -- unlike ignorance, which largely IS their fault, because most of us have access to enormous libraries of information and could remedy ignorance merely by reading, listening, and watching. So I don't blame people for being idiots, they can't help it. But it does us no good to pretend they don't exist. They do. In vast numbers.
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Re: Well, but you know...they ARE idiots.
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Re: Well, but you know...they ARE idiots.
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Instead, you are part of the problem. So convinced of your rightness as to be an arrogant prick.
Arrogance doesn't necessarily imply that he's wrong.
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Re: Re: Re: Well, but you know...they ARE idiots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhUXSX3ZnpE
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You see how amazing his inflamatory language and ridiculing "out of context" clippinng makes democrats ignore it? You wonder why people are tired of partisans like you?
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Re: Well, but you know...they ARE idiots.
If you are a stupid coal-mine worker or, god forbid outside the workforce/public employee, you had it coming to you either way. Trickle down is no fucking socialist give-away. It is trickling down on people with high wages as it should so whining poor bitches can just lift their lazy asses and start to make the money needed to get a share. Trickle down is motivating people who earns big bucks to earn more. That is how it is supposed to work!
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Re: Well, but you know...they ARE idiots.
The error that frequently follows after the inarguable conclusion that half the people are of below average intelligence, is that all the ones above that line share your every political position.
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It's all about the definition
Accountability isn't about lawsuits to stop opinions.
Accountability is about individual's ability to do their own research on topics.
It's about educating the masses on what to look for, to differentiate a news bot from a human being behind a keyboard, about checking sources and verifying content comes from a legitimate journalistic source vs a marketing team pushing lobbying efforts.
It's not just about Presidential politics, it's not just about opinion pieces or facebooks news aggregation, it's about individuals taking responsibility that what they think they heard as being factual.
This is especially important now, today with state actors pushing their narratives into mainstream discussions. With corporate lobbyists redefining terms that mean the opposite of what they were (think Florida solar amendment 1, where a yes meant no).
It's the responsibility of journalism to educate, not berate individuals.
Want to crowd source something meaningful, get something together that puts educational advertising on every screen and audio output that teaches everyone in every demographic how to tell the difference between news and marketing. Then repeat it every day, every year until it lands in text books in classrooms being taught to first grade students through their college years.
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> ...
> It's not understanding why they voted the way they did.
If you think more facts is bad, then I'm afraid you are going to really hate the only option left. It involves telling more lies, just better and more manipulative lies for "our" side. That idea makes me sick. Its a capitulation to those who believe that all opinions are equally valid, regardless of how well researched or informed.
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If you think more facts is bad, then I'm afraid you are going to really hate the only option left. It involves telling more lies, just better and more manipulative lies for "our" side.
You misunderstand. It's not that facts are bad. They're incredibly important. But simply dumping a bunch of facts on people who have cultural reasons for feeling upset and angry and disenfranchised doesn't help. It's "let them eat facts." The point is that you need to actually go beyond just the facts to understand why so many people are angry -- why our government is so dysfunctional for them and people they know.
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If they did, the problem would be solved. People KNOW why but they do not understand WHY! Trust me, there might be a subtle difference, but that different can be like night and day with the result!
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Remember, understanding is Wisdom. You can KNOW that 1+1=2, but do you understand WHY? Likewise, that give-a-shit attitude is made from their understanding that the Citizens understand little and will let them get away from it. So the point here is that there is STILL a misunderstanding, just not where we think it might be!
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On the other hand, it is painfully clear why the less fortunate are expressing themselves in less than civil fashion.
I find it difficult listening to the pretzel logic, twisting and turning of opinions, blah, blah, blah all in an attempt to rationalize their bad behavior. It is the fuck you, I don't give a shit that makes these people mad.
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I agree here. When the poor rise up against the Elite a lot of news outlets start screaming "Class Warfare".
The problem is that this is very one sided. The Elite have been waging class warfare on the poor for a very long time without much challenge and as soon as someone say's "let's fight back' one of two things happen.
"Class Warfare name calling is batted around like a ping-pong ball"
-or-
"The Elite Globalist's (both dems and repubs) use it as a spring board to introduce Regulation through a Congress constructed agency that is then purchased by the Plutocracy and stonewalls 'The People' it claims to serve"
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They're not angry. They're racist. Let's look at the CNN exit poll:
White men (34% of sample): 31% Clinton, 63% Trump, 6% other/no answer
White women (36% of sample): 43% Clinton, 52% Trump, 5% other/no answer
Black men (5% of sample): 80% Clinton, 13% Trump, 7% other/no answer
Black women (7% of sample): 93% Clinton, 4% Trump, 3% other/no answer
Latino men (5% of sample): 62% Clinton, 33% Trump, 5% other/no answer
Latino women (6% of sample): 68% Clinton, 26% Trump, 6% other/no answer
Other (6% of sample): 61% Clinton, 32% Trump, 7% other/no answer
This happened in an economy that's great for white people (really low unemployed among whites, less than half the rate of blacks), at a time when crime is down and headed down further, where home buying has stabilized, etc., where pretty much everything that affects the character and quality of life of white people is in pretty good shape.
So they're not angry. They have no real reason to be, because they're doing pretty well -- much better than other demographic groups. Eight years of the Obama presidency have been terrific for white people, across economic classes, urban/rural areas, etc.
So no, they're not angry. They're just racist, so they voted for the candidate endorsed by the Klan and the Nazis. Go read @shaunking's timeline for the past 24 hours and look at what happened in this country in the day after the election. GO READ.
Prediction -- and my god I hope I'm wrong: we will see lynchings soon. I don't know whether the victims will be black or Muslim, gay or Latino, but we'll see them.
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And the lynching have already started.
http://www.infowars.com/shock-video-black-mob-viciously-beats-white-trump-voter/
O wait... the "non-racists" are doing the lynching? For a bunch of fucking racists there sure is a lot of NON violence from them.
You are the racist, you are just so busy calling everyone that does not agree with you to notice!
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Go and look at twitter and see who is trying to cause trouble. Hint, Hint, is the sore worthless losers you are NOT calling racist.
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Uh, no. Our spam filter temporarily caught a comment because certain link URLs are commonly found in spam.
Not everything is a conspiracy.
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I wonder what else is going on?
And no I am not screaming conspiracy and I do understand the linking situation, some of you choose to take it out of context.
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I wonder what else is going on?
The spam filter relies on a number of different factors to determine what is and what is not spam. Links are one. IP address is another. Whether or not you've been determined in the past to be a spammer. Plus a lot more.
For whatever reason, the filter caught your new comment.
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"TD blocked my first response do you because I linked proof of the attacks by minorities."
Which meant because I put a link it, TD blocked it. YOU chose to assume that I was blaming TD in a conspiratorial sense and that was not the intention.
True I could have said "TD Blocked me because I have A link in my post" but sometimes we do not think our posts through all of the way sometimes. I admit to being human and making mistakes, but no, I do not think TD is in some stupid fucking conspiracy and I would appreciate that you not treat all forms of dissent as such!
And no, the reason for linking infowars.com is not lost on me. I am fully aware that the site is biased, but that does not bother me. I could have linked any other site I could have easily found the same video on it if I found it first.
But either way, regardless of the nature of the blocking, I will still call it out. I will say thanks for letting the post make it through and next time I will try to word it a little better so I do not get your undies in a wad, but no promises. When the excitement starts happening mistakes are made, which is why it is always a good idea for people to count to 10 when you are getting excited for good or for bad!
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Lessons learnt:
1. Racism works both ways, idiot.
2. The statistics show absolutely nothing
3. Latino and "other" voters came quite close to an even split. Therefore disproving your own point and showing point 2.
There is absolutely nothing racist shown in the statistics and the media / polls should stop trying to segregate people. So long as people creating a mentality of "us and them", there will be continue to be problems.
The sooner everyone stops trying to drag bullshit like race and gender into everything, the better we'll all be. (Especially those SJWs.)
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As for race:
Blacks in Bronx aren't the same kind as Obamas Hawaii or Beyonces Houston. If you want to talk about a problem that fuels the race-thinking it is the social inequality, the parts of cities police aren't entering and the increasing ghettoisation of the country where social equals find together in an area and confirm eachothers biases to a point where everyone else gets demonized.
The issues run deep, but who cares? Every politician can accept status quo on that issue and demonization is essentially a politicians dream since it is easy to create distance to the demons.
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Clearly, the above is bullshit.
Could it be that the minorities to which you refer do not want a bigot in politics? Did they respond to the idiotic bigoted ramblings of the candidate? Hmmmm, difficult questions you are probably not prepared to answer.
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You know nothing Jon Snow, that is such a small percentage of the deal as to be negligible. Missing the disfranchisement aspect of the whole deal i think.
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Trump kicks puppies and kittens for fun.
See.
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People don't change their mind because of fake stories; but made-up minds strengthen their resolve with support from fake stories. The fake stories strengthened their conformation biases.
(And yes, as is usual with conformation bias, the strengthened resolves doesn't care whether or not the original premise was logically coherent or not.)
No, Facebook's algorithm is not solely to blame for disinformation or "post-factual democracy". But I would think it naive to say the algorithm had no effect on disinformation.
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Your liberal bias is showing
No, the 50 million Trump voters are not all dumb rubes falling for scam articles as you condescendingly suggest. Instead, the tech savvy among those voters saw things happen with their own eyes as the censorship and shadowbanning of conservative ideas happened on a daily basis. They saw truly educational videos by Prager U being put into restricted mode by YouTube, they saw Google manipulating search results in favor of the dems.
They also saw behind the scenes collusion as the big media companies jockeyed for favors in Clinton's administration.
Techdirt should get out of their blinders off and realize that censorship doesn't suppress the truth. It emboldens those censored to struggle harder.
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Re: Your liberal bias is showing
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What's that? We liberals should be more accepting and tolerate those with different views and cultures? What are you a FUCKING RACIST?!
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We liberals should be more accepting and tolerate those with different views and cultures? What are you a FUCKING RACIST?!
So then liberals need to accept misogyny, xenophobia, discrimination against the LBGT community, and blacks because we need to be more tolerant to those views?
Yeah, great point to make dumbass. At least we know where one of the uneducated white votes came from.
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Ah, the name calling and labelling. Way to prove the point.
If you don't like the label, then don't live up to it.
If you feel that calling someone who implies we need to be open minded to misogynists, xenophobes, and religious-"right" discriminatory policies a dumbass is somehow missing the point, then congratulations on living up to my opinion of you and your kind.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your liberal bias is showing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhUXSX3ZnpE
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your liberal bias is showing
If you come off defending racism, misogyny, and discriminatory policies, then I feel it's not only appropriate, but required to call you a misguided dipshit.
I feel no need to sugar coat it because your feelings might be hurt.
If you think calling a racist an asshole is somehow a lie, I really don't know what to tell you other than I have empathy for your stupidity, as I know that can't be fixed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your liberal bias is showing
You are every bit the racist, misogynist & misandrist, and discriminatory in your policies as you accuse the other side of being... actually more so!
And even though I am happy to name call, I am not dumb enough to claim it is justified. Justice is a term too clean for most everyone's dirty mouth, especially yours, because you seek only revenge in your pursuits, you do not seek justice!
While I understand that I have the same vice, I assure you, that what comes out of your mouth is what defiles you!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your liberal bias is showing
You are the misguided dipshit.
You are every bit the racist, misogynist & misandrist, and discriminatory in your policies as you accuse the other side of being... actually more so!
The old "I know you are but what am I defense." You're just done, aren't you?
I assure you, that what comes out of your mouth is what defiles you!
Defiles? What are you writing this while reading your bible?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your liberal bias is showing
Can you explain why others should not point out said discriminatory behavior?
Can you explain discriminatory behavior should be allowed and not be subject to criticism?
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I did, by pointing out those are lies.
Oh, well that certainly settles it then.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your liberal bias is showing
You are either ignorant or a liar because the evidence against your claim is everywhere you look. Do you live under a rock?
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Re: Your liberal bias is showing
Did you even read the post here at all? Almost everything you claim I said is the opposite of what I said.
Yes, Facebook and Twitter and YouTube helped Trump, but not in the way that you laughably propose.
I didn't say they helped Trump. I mocked people who insisted that they did.
No, the 50 million Trump voters are not all dumb rubes falling for scam articles as you condescendingly suggest.
Actually, I made the exact same point you are. That the people who claim fake stories on Facebook helped Trump are condescendingly calling 50 million Trump supporters dumb.
I said the exact same thing that you're claiming proves your point. WTF?
Techdirt should get out of their blinders off and realize that censorship doesn't suppress the truth. It emboldens those censored to struggle harder.
Seriously. Did you read the article? THAT'S THE EXACT POINT I WAS MAKING. That anyone calling for Facebook/Google to censor people will do exactly what you said.
Look, maybe instead of (falsely) assuming some bias here, you should READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE before making a jackass out of yourself.
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Re: Re: Your liberal bias is showing
The problem is confirmation bias. Everybody is only paying attention to what they want to be told. And I mean everybody, regardless of political affiliation. We've all got blinders.
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Re: Re: Re: Your liberal bias is showing
Won't it be fun comparing notes with the people on the other side of the aisle? You may find that you've got a lot more in common than you realise, you're just too busy blaming people to look for solutions.
That tribal thing you do has got to stop. Bin ideology and start thinking practically, and trust me, things will get better.
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Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
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Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
When do you plan on checking out of humanity then? Humanity loves this stuff. Or... are you an Alien?
Humanity reasons with itself to condone anything.
The colonialists reasoned with themselves that blacks were not human and could be made as slaves.
The Muslims reasoned with themselves that people are to be converted by the sword.
The Catholic Church reasoned with itself that heretics deserve death.
Many Puritans escaping that problem in turn visited it on others, but just to a lesser degree.
Many Christian persecuted the Gays, and now the Gays in turn persecute the Christians.
If you are not seeing the trend yet, the World is one big Eye for an Eye "Hatfield's vs the McCoy's".
We have long since stopped caring why we fight, we just come up with some likely excuses we things justifies our iniquity and go to town with it!
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Then fuck it - good luck!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
Conservatism is about helping people up, not just out. Liberalism is the opposite. It has been the worst thing to ever happen to the poor as it keeps them poor. We have decades of proof of that.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
And you seem to have a few .. ummm incorrect opinions
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You will find that conservatives have strong families and desire for everyone to have the same.
Conservatism is about helping people up, not just out.
Yeah sure...when I see all you happy conservatives advocating for health care for single parents unable to afford it and record high adoption rates, you can tell me all about it.
Funny how when it comes to abortion, you feel that we need to avoid it at all cost. But those same conservative mouthpieces are also against contraception, which would prevent the situation in the first place.
Care to comment how that somehow "helps people out" as opposed to putting them in a more dire situation?
Or you could just come clean and say what you really mean - it's about controlling women's bodies. I'd appreciate a little honesty for a change, rather than they typical misguided religiously-motivated bullshit.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
You should look into the history behind Planned Parenthood and Margaret Sangor. Who Hillary praised. She also praised Robert Byrd who supported the KKK. Not to mention the long, bloody, racist history of the Dem party. All the way back to slave owning and raping Thomas Jefferson.
So tell me again who are these people that fit your labels?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
From a purely scientific view... what is the DNA? Homo Sapiens? Then it is human. Fetus is still human, just a classification of one of the stages of gestation.
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They want revolution and some have already drawn blood for it!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
They want revolution and some have already drawn blood for it!
What exactly are you people so worried about?
Don't you have all your guns to cuddle with?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
You see, only a fool seeks blood, because they will always find it. The question is will they find their enemies blood before they find their own?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
You see, only a fool seeks blood, because they will always find it.
Take solace in that if you ever need a transfusion.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
How about yourself? It looks like you need a big ole hug based on how this thread is going?
Here is a free internet hug fellow internetian!
***HUG***
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
It's nonsense. The Dems switched from right-leaning to their current neoliberal + progressive (both factions fight with each other) position after Nixon's Southern Strategy pushed the Progressives out of the Republican party.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Republican
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
Something that would avoid the abortion situation.
And protect your precious DNA from being treated like slaves.
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But nice of you to lump everyone together.
I see. So then are you saying that most of the conservatives in Congress are Catholic?
Oh please...tell me more!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
Plus you are being dishonest as well. Even though I have no trouble with birth control, I do not agree with forcing someone that does not agree with them to have to fund it.
How would you like to have a business you operated forced to purchase slaves so that they can be given to your employees for free after work?
The point here is that for whatever reason, crazy or not, there is a 1st Amendment protected right to not have to be forced to do anything your religion is against, so long as that does not infringe on someone elses rights. And getting birth control is not a right guaranteed in the Constitution.
So if the flying sketti monster wants to stop me from buying a cake for a wedding because they hate me, that is fine. But I have no right to force them to attend to my cultural or religious desires through force of law!
That is the crux here and you are willingly ignoring it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
Even though I have no trouble with birth control, I do not agree with forcing someone that does not agree with them to have to fund it.
Well, I do not agree with forcing someone who supports responsible family planning (i.e. contraception) to have to support neo-natal care, welfare, etc. which come at a MUCH HIGHER PREMIUM than contraception.
How would you like to have a business you operated forced to purchase slaves so that they can be given to your employees for free after work?
Contraception vs. purchasing slaves...great comparison.
Religion in the workplace...somehow I seem to recall something about a law preventing discrimination based on religion when it comes to workplaces.
But then again, given the decline in christianity in the country, it's only going to be one or two more generations before you folks find yourselves on the receiving end of what you're sowing now.
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What comes around goes around. Be careful what you wish for sketti monster guys.
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"From a purely scientific view..."... really?? So you're going to also ban haircuts and eczema?? That's the same human dna you're throwing away there.
From a scientific pov, you really need to have, at the bare minimum, brain activity in response to stimuli.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
She also praised Robert Byrd who supported the KKK.
Well, that's not quite the same as getting the endorsement of the KKK, but OK, sure. You might want to really consider if bringing up the KKK makes you look smarter, or like you can't help stepping in your own shit.
And insulting one of our founding fathers? How classy! Perhaps we can bring up some stuff from the 1600's to help further along your point.
As far as Planned Parenthood, that's a long stretch from defending support for contraception. Some might call it "deflection."
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
I think the founding fathers did great things. But it is quite interesting that the founder of the Dem party had and raped slaves while the founder of the Repub party freed them.
Planned Parenthood has its roots in racism and eugenics. There is a reason most of them are in minority neighborhoods and it isn't to help minorities. You would do well to look into it before you pass if off as a deflection.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
Also, go to Wikileaks and see how the DNC referred to minorities.
I was so waiting for one of you lovelies to bring up Wikileaks...now I'm sure that Hillary's emails and the potential for leaking classified information was a deal breaker for you folks. We can't have classified information out there! Think of the soldiers!
You also must realize that the Wikileaks you refer to is the same Wikileaks that published UNREDACTED classified information back when Chelsea Manning leaked the info to them?
Yes, you can certainly help who you praise, that's for sure. You really should quit, as you make yourself look like a bigger retard with every comment.
There is a reason most of them are in minority neighborhoods and it isn't to help minorities. You would do well to look into it before you pass if off as a deflection.
Yes - because that's where they're needed the most. And given conservative fear of blacks in general, you should be on your knees thanking them for potentially helping to keep their population down.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
I did not defend Wikileaks. What I did was point out the treasure trove of DNC email shows what Dems really think of minorities.
As for quitting while I am ahead, you did not refute the point which was Hillary praises KKK members and Trump does not. Also, the "retard" statement exposes what you think of the mentally handicapped. Give a liberal enough talking time and they will expose themselves.
Finally, if you were to research the connection between Margaret and PP you would see they are near minority neighborhoods because she was a racists and wanted minorities to kill their own.
Please do the research before making emotional, factless statements.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
I did not defend Wikileaks. What I did was point out the treasure trove of DNC email shows what Dems really think of minorities.
Hmmm, back when Sarah Palin's emails were posted there:
"John McCain's campaign condemned the incident, saying it was a "shocking invasion of the governor's privacy and a violation of law". Barack Obama's spokesman Bill Burton called the hacking "outrageous"."
Now you're using it the information, without much consideration for their privacy.
Give a conservative enough rope and he'll show you what a hypocritical self-righteous idiot he really is.
And yes, I think retard is appropriate. It'd be funny to see all the conservatives quoting Wikileaks getting their precious little panties in a wad when something that doesn't help them out turns up there.
Keep hypocriting!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
Retarded pot, I'd like to introduce you to retarded kettle. I think you have more in common than you might realize at first glance...
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Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
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Re: Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
Look it's snowing "special snowflakes"
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Untruthful and Hate filled Facebook World
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Most people are in the habit of truth checking instead of fact checking. I think a good portion of people are even confused about the difference between the truth and the facts. I actually had someone ask me one time "what makes your facts better than anyone else's facts" I mean really?
Honestly I think the best solution is to start teaching critical thinking in schools and start teaching it young.
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Re:
Amen to that. And why is this not done??
I strongly suspect (supported by personal experience) that the folks doing the teaching have found that turning young people into critical thinkers too early doesn't result in the kind of students/people/citizens they want to produce.
Not a conspiracy, just the way things work out. An observation that has explanatory and predictive power, which usually suggests a strong element of truth.
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Snopes?
Another bothersome point is that Twitter & Facebook employees are looking at their role in electing Trump. Sorry, but I don't want them to have a role for either side. The mainstream media has already chosen sides, I don't need platforms choosing sides.
Lastly, it is a culture war, a fabricated one. I am a conservative and many of my friends and co-workers are as well and not one of them are any of the things liberals like to label us as. In fact, liberals in an odd twist of irony, are labeling all whites and/or conservatives as these things which is exactly the thing they claim to detest. In their rush to not be a bigot they have become one.
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Re: Snopes?
confirmation bias much? Read a little bit and try real hard to comprehend the words as the fall into your head.
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Re: Re: Snopes?
They *did* wrongly debunk the story about the "Emory U Chalk Trump Crisis". Though in that case, the article writer's excuse that it sounded so ridiculous he assumed the story had to be a mean-spirited invention actually kinda rings true. I thought much the same.
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Democrat ideals are losing
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Re: Democrat ideals are losing
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Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
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Re: Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
Since the 2010 mid-term elections, Democrats have lost about 1,600 seats across the country from mayor, governor, state and federal congressman and now the President.
Citation?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
Much of the proof is the fact the Repubs took congress in 2010 and still hold it today and just picked up the White House.
I see...so this has a trickle down effect, all the way to mayor?
I will leave the rest of the research for you. Or not. Remain ignorant if you wish.
Well, given it's your fucking point, I would have assumed you already would have a link/source to cite.
PROTIP: When a commenter says something to the effect of "I'll leave the research for you" or "You go find the source" it's because there is no reliable source to cite.
But sure, I'll continue to remain ignorant of unjustifiable "facts' cited by anonymous commenters on the Internet. You feel free to continue to do the opposite.
Jackass.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
I will teach you:
Step 1. Open your web browser
Step 2. Go to google.com
Step 3. Type offices lost by democrats in last 8 years
Step 4. Hit the Enter key
Step 5. Be enlightened
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
1st result: A Reminder to Republicans of Just How Bad Things Were Under George W. Bush
Read more at: http://www.forwardprogressives.com/reminder-republicans-just-bad-things-george-w-bush/
2nd result: U.S. Job Creation by President / Political Party – truthful politics (HINT: it doesn't create a picture that you'll be happy to see)
http:/truthfulpolitics.com/comments/u-s-job-creation-by-president-political-party/
Very enlightening. You should really do the same.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
1st item: A Reminder to Republicans of Just How Bad Things Were Under George W. Bush
2nd item: U.S. Job Creation by President / Political Party (HINT: It doesn't make you look very good)
So yes, I'm very enlightened.
What I can't understand is how you did the same thing and came up with your little statistic.
But thanks, there Skippy! That gave me the biggest fucking laugh I've had all day!
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http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/11/the-obama-legacy-over-1000-democratic-seats-lost-to-rep ublicans/
Guess good ole Google is controlling results for people.
But on a positive note, you guys have learned how to do an internet search. Now learn to search harder if you don't find things on the first search.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
On the link you provided:
Since Obama took office Democrats have lost: 14 Senate seats 69 House seats 12 governorships 910 state legislature seats
That adds up to 1005...you said over 1600...Which is approximately a 30% deviation from what the site said.
Thanks for congratulating me on my ability to do a google search. Along with my ability to read what you linked to.
Now, if you could tell me...how in the fucking fuck does 1005 equate to 1600 in your "enlightened" little head?
I'm so glad you can search on google, but I'd be more impressed if you had the capability to do 2nd grade math.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
No wonder you are so angry, people ignore you a lot don't they? So you came to TD to get a little attention.
Don't feel bad, you can blame me for the same thing if you like! It's all good!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
Lazy or not, you get to git off ur own damn duff and get some education. I am not doing to do the heavy lifting for ya.... remembers? ME
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
In short, go and find out for yourself, we are not going to do it for ya!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrat ideals are losing
Now you - GO!
Find out, and educate yourself!
I'm not going to do the heavy lifting for you. Just scroll up, read the other idiot's google instructions, and go.
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No Problem
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*Looks around*
*Walks out of comment section
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You guys are old fashioned freedom fighters!
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Pardon My Swahili, but BULL5HIT!
What they did was suppress what should have been a bigger landslide for Trump.
These people should be in chains.
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Re: Pardon My Swahili, but BULL5HIT!
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Welcome To Dumbfuckistan
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The interesting thing about Facebook is that it's generating propoganda for both sides by fine tuning the stories shown in each individuals time line. And it's not doing it for political reasons, but it's own monetary gain.
I suggest that the connection to Trump's win has come about because they both do the same thing - they say what they believe the listener wants to hear, and they're given a large platform to do so.
If someone famous said some of the things Facebook were propogating, they'd be sued. That it's some foreign, teenage nobody coming up with the stories and not Facebook itself, gives Facebook an out. But without Facebook, these stories would get no where. I believe that there is a reasonable expectation that Facebook should fact check the larger stories they're pushing before they get pushed. That's not censorship. It's the same reason that MSM typical identify opinion pieces separately from news stories.
Market forces will likely fix Facebook in the end - it's undeniably spoiling the UX.
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Most of the mainstream outlets who endorsed Hillary did so because "Never Trump," not because they particularly like her.
You need proportional representation, state funding for political parties' campaigns, and a cap on how many ads a party can broadcast during the election season so the bigger ones don't drown the smaller ones out.
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If it's "in print", it must be true
Just look through your own Facebook newsfeed to see how many people recently shared the old "post this message to stop Facebook from taking your content"... which was never true and which was debunked in 2012! Why do people still believe it? Why can't they spend 10 seconds on Snopes to see that it's completely false?
Then combine this with the media outlets who make money from clicks and advertising, and who don't really care about fact-checking: if it's wrong, they can later add a link to a corrected version of the article. This creates people like Trump who get ahead by shouting the craziest, most offensive things just to get attention.
Then there's the idea that media outlets have to report on every story out of "fairness", though it's usually just to ride the coat-tails of another network to get clicks and ratings:
Fox News: Does this video show Hillary eating puppies? We think it does. (An obvious lie, but it gets attention.)
CNN: Fox News reports that Hillary was caught eating puppies. We talk with experts about what this means for her campaign. (By "analyzing" the obvious false story, they legitimize it while also getting attention.)
Your local news channel: How will Hillary's puppygate scandal affect the nation? Our report at 11:00.
After all this, can anyone *not* believe that Hillary was eating puppies?
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"I'm divided but I agree with him, it's better to enable some speech than none" Um, no. Propagating government propaganda isn't doing anything to enable "some" speech. FB is in it for the money, not to help the people. Anything that helps a government c
Um, no. Propagating government propaganda isn't doing anything to enable "some" speech. FB is in it for the money, not to help the people. Anything that helps a government continue to oppress their people should be avoided.
http://www.programvb.com/2017/01/facebook-delete.html
http://www.programvb.com/2017/01/2017-a pk-facebook-2.html
http://www.programvb.com/2016/12/2017-download-facebook-lite.html
http://www.progra mvb.com/2016/12/2017-download-facebook-messenger.html
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