Apple Didn't Delete That Guys iTunes Movies, But What Happened Still Shows The Insanity Of Copyright

from the different-but-still-bad dept

Mon, Sep 17th 2018 10:42am — Mike Masnick

Last week we, like many others, wrote about the story of Anders G da Silva, who had complained on Twitter about how Apple had disappeared three movies he had purchased, and its customer service seemed to do little more than offer him some rental credits. There was lots of discussion about the ridiculousness -- and potential deceptive practices -- of offering a "buy" button if you couldn't actually back up the "purchase" promise.

Some more details are coming out about the situation with da Silva, and some are arguing that everyone got the original story wrong and it was incorrect to blame Apple here. However, looking over the details, what actually happened may be slightly different, but it's still totally messed up. Apple didn't just stop offering the films. What happened was that da Silva moved from Australia to Canada, and apparently then wished to redownload the movies he had purchased. It was that region change that evidently caused the problem. Because copyright holders get ridiculously overprotective of regional licenses, Apple can only offer some content in some regions -- and it warns you that if you move you may not be able to re-download films that you "purchased" in another region (even though it promises you can hang onto anything you've already downloaded).

And, here the situation is slightly more confusing because Apple actually does offer the same three movies -- Cars, Cars 2 and The Grand Budapest Hotel -- in both Australia and Canada, but apparently they may not be the identical "versions" of the film, as they may be slightly altered depending on the region.

And while this may be marginally better than completely removing his "purchased" films, it's still absolutely ridiculous. The CNET article linked above is sympathetic to the idea that Apple has to go to extreme lengths such as these to prevent "region hopping," and says that da Silva is just an "edge case" that "fell into a licensing crack." But, again, that's nonsense. This is digital content that he "purchased" using a "buy" button. It shouldn't matter where he is at some later date. He should still get access to those original files. That's what a purchase means. The fact that this might possibly in some cases mean that (OH MY GOSH!) someone in Canada can access a movie released in Australia when they're actually in Canada, well, uh, that seems like an "edge case" that a movie studio and Apple should deal with, rather than screwing over legitimate purchasers.

But, alas, we're left with yet another example of the insanity driven by excessive copyright, in which copyright holders get so overly focused on the notion of "control" that they feel the need to control absolutely everything -- including making sure that no wayward Canadians might (GASP!) purchase and download a movie meant for Australians. It's this overwhelming, obsessive desire to "control" each and every use that messes with so many people's lives -- including da Silva's -- and makes sure that the public has almost no respect at all for copyright. Give up a little control, and let the edge cases go, and maybe people wouldn't be so quick to condemn copyright for removing their own rights so frequently.

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Filed Under: copyright, downloads, drm, itunes, licensing, ownership, regional restrictions
Companies: apple

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Gary (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 10:56am

Region Locks
Region lockouts are one of the crazy copywrong powers wielded by supervillains. Thankfully VLC ignores the region flag.
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Obvious Lee, 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:01am

So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
> It was that region change that evidently caused the problem.

There you go. You surround that with usual attack on copyright, your only purpose again:

> It's this overwhelming, obsessive desire to "control" each and every use that messes with so many people's lives

Oh, the horror! Couldn't watch three movies again!

Sheesh. Why don't you kids do something with the marvelous advantages you've been handed OTHER THAN complain you can't wallow in mindless entertainments?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:09am

Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Yeah, you tell those people who spend all their time complaining by spending all your time complaining about them.
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crade (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:10am

Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Sheesh. Why don't you kids do something with the marvelous advantages you've been handed OTHER THAN complain you can't wallow in mindless entertainments?

They would love to do great things but are blocked by copyright and patent entitlement standing around with their hands out and spewing bullshit at every turn.
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ShadowNinja (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:13am

Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.

There you go. You surround that with usual attack on copyright, your only purpose again:

So then you'd be fine if say clothing makers did the same thing, and tried to confiscate all your clothing if you moved to another country?

"Sorry but that clothing was legally purchased in the USA and you're in Europe, you aren't allowed to use it in other countries. You'll have to purchase clothes from a local European clothing store".
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stine, 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:14am

region licenses
What you're saying is that Apply has to claw back the license fee it paid for the Australian copy and use that money to pay the Canadian licensee?

I suggest not. I think Apple simply needs to state that since you're accessing regionally licensed content, that if you leave the region, you won't have access to the content until you return to the region.
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Seegras (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:17am

Re: region licenses
*I suggest not. I think Apple simply needs to state that since you're accessing regionally licensed content, that if you leave the region, you won't have access to the content until you return to the region.*

No, they simply must allow you to access the content you have "bought" is accessible to you no matter where in the world you are.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:19am

Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.

There you go. You surround that with usual attack on copyright, your only purpose again:

Because region locking is dumb and should be attacked.

Oh, the horror! Couldn't watch three movies again!

Doesn't matter what it was or how much it cost. He purchased them, he gets them. Otherwise, the "buy" button and the marketing that says "own it today!" are illegal false advertising.
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Gwiz (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:26am

Do I have give back my Insightful comment of the week award?
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:30am

Re:
Did you move to another country?
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I.T. Guy, 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:34am

Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
If Google stole 3 movies from you (about what??? 30 bucks?) your head would freaking explode.

Those paint chips contain lead, please stop eating them.
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8Red, 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:35am

Distributors
Usually this kind of thing comes down not to different "versions" of a film, but who the regional distributor is. Most of time a film will be distributed by different companies in different areas, and they can get very territorial about it since they usually pay the studios a good deal of money for the rights. It's antiquated in today's world, but so is much of the entertainment industry today. There is probably some stupid contract right on those films digital distribution that prevents their transfer between regions.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:40am

Doesn't that guy with the trendy avatar always mention that the copyright cartels need to stop subdividing the world to face the reality that we're global?

I guess in the cartels minds if he owned DVD's & went to Oz he would have to buy the content again b/c he can't get a DVD player with the right region.

I think the constant theme is they look for ways to make you pay them again and again for no reason other than they rigged the system to benefit them.

Whats next, iOS devices using GPS to stop showing content when you cross international borders where you haven't paid them for the right to watch the content you bought?
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Uriel-238 (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:44am

So...say I really like a film...
...And as such I really don't mind my delicate provincial sensibilities altered by seeing versions of a film intended for foreign eyes and foreign minds. To the contrary, I'm interested in seeing how the film is presented world wide.

How do I find and acquire versions of films for other regions? Can I get a list of versions and their differences? Who is deciding what people in my region can or cannot see?

Does Vader get to win in Japanese Star Wars?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:45am

Re:

I guess in the cartels minds if he owned DVD's & went to Oz he would have to buy the content again b/c he can't get a DVD player with the right region.

Unless he could get the Wizard to give him a region-free DVD player. That's probably more likely than the Wizard giving the studios a brain.
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Carlie Coats, 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:51am

illegal false advertising... or theft
Frankly, I'd like to push the theft angle, and put some copyright-holder executives in jail over it.
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michael, 17 Sep 2018 @ 11:54am

No, it's worse
"the situation is slightly more confusing because Apple actually does offer the same three movies -- Cars, Cars 2 and The Grand Budapest Hotel -- in both Australia and Canada, but apparently they may not be the identical "versions" of the film, as they may be slightly altered depending on the region.

And while this may be marginally better than completely removing his "purchased" films ..."

I'd actually consider this worse. At least Apple had an excuse if they no longer sold the films. "We sell those films, he purchased those films, but we're not letting him have them anyway" is a much worse stance for Apple.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 12:22pm

Re:

"I guess in the cartels minds if he owned DVD's & went to Oz he would have to buy the content again b/c he can't get a DVD player with the right region."

I don't know for sure, but if I were moving to Oz and knew anything about Oz before I moved there, I might decide to bring my DVD player with me.

Of course it's a long move and one might reduce the load by selling items before packing, but it is likely that replacing those items in the new local would cost more than the sale of the used items produced. Rather than trying to discern the best financial option, I would think the simpler option, bring the damn DVD player along, would be the better choice.

BTW, we are talking about the Oz with the yellow brick road here right? Cause this guy moved from Australia (aka Oz) to Canada, not the reverse.
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TripMN, 17 Sep 2018 @ 12:44pm

I bet there is a way around this geo blocking thing
So does all Dasilva needs to do is log in to an Australian VPN and the items should be there and downloadable again... or is IP region hopping like that somehow illegal in the minds of these people as well?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 12:50pm

Re: So...say I really like a film...

Does Vader get to win in Japanese Star Wars?

The Death Star, though mechanical, is not a giant humanoid robot, so no, he still doesn't get to win.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 12:55pm

Re:
To be fair, you do make more sense than ol blue.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:02pm

Re: So...say I really like a film...

Does Vader get to win in Japanese Star Wars?

No, but the final fight would involve giant robots, lots of yelling, and Luke explaining to Vader and the Emperor (in the middle of the fight) that they'll never win because family and friendship are the most powerful forces of all and there's no way he could lose to someone who doesn't understand that.
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ShadowNinja (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:03pm

Re: I bet there is a way around this geo blocking thing
And then they're legally a pirate for downloading their own property that they already purchased.

Congratulations copywrong law for turning another innocent civilian into a criminal!
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:09pm

Steam does this too
Or at least they did as of 8 years ago. I had preordered (shhh, I know. I was younger and wanted the beta access) the Medal of Honor reboot, and although the game was coming out while I would be out of the country (Japan, in this case), I had a decent laptop and figured it'd be a nice timekiller while I was there.

Except it would have been, but apparently Japan wasn't getting it then, or maybe at all. Steam would not let me touch anything about the game and prevented me from installing it for the duration of my stay. As soon as I returned home months later, they let me play my game.
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David, 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:09pm

Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.

So then you'd be fine if say clothing makers did the same thing, and tried to confiscate all your clothing if you moved to another country?

Well, I recently read on Interpersonal Stack Exchange some item where an Indian was wearing a T-Shirt with Hitler or a Swastika on it (don't remember which one but he likely considered it a thumbs-up to his German co-workers). He'd have been saved some embarrassment at the workplace if that T-shirt had been region-coded and would have refused being worn in Europe because, well, it doesn't really work as a thumbs-up there. Waaaaaay not.

For every insane rule there is an even more insane use case...
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:15pm

...
So who wants to bet that there are several executives who have suddenly become excited that they might be able to apply the same thing to physical discs...
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That One Guy (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:20pm

'If I'm going to be considered a criminal either way...'
And leaving them in the position of 'do I risk this happening again, or do I just skip the whole 'pay first' step and download it directly next time?'

I always find it funny how so many 'anti-copyright infringement' and/or 'copyright protection' schemes instead provide people very real examples of why not to pay by penalizing and/or offering a decidedly worse product to those that pay, almost as though they are trying to stop people from paying them by punishing those that do.
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That One Guy (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:23pm

Re: ...
Physical discs, blu-ray or DVD, have been region locked for a good while now, so they've long crossed that bridge and slapped a toll-booth on it.
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crade (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:36pm

Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Your example doesn't really work very well... Your hitler or swastika shirt isn't acceptable in any region. For the second thing, even if in your scenario the public's feelings are so sacred that the shirt should be censored it really only applies to public display of the shirt, not private ownership.

Your Indian fellow could own the shirt, wear it in his bathroom, use it to wash his car, or whatever he wants without any problem.

These use cases really don't apply to copyright. Utterly, the only thing gained from taking something away from someone using Region restrictions is the ability to sell it back to them.
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crade (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:44pm

Re: 'If I'm going to be considered a criminal either way...'
Unfortunately, it's only funny until you figure out they actually are disingenuous, they have no interest in stopping piracy and the only reason for many of these schemes is actually to provide fuel for pushing legislation to give them more "compensation" for everything they "lose" because of it.. anti-circumvention.. more restrictions.. levies.. statutory damages... and whatever horrible stuff is coming next.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:50pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Swastikas are considered acceptable in some regions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Contemporary_use
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ECA (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:51pm

Metioned before.
The fun part of finding videos, and music on the web..Even some online games from certain companies..
wondering yahoo, you see all their games but wish to play another version...Jump to Another country and its THERE, but you cant play it, because of REGION..including Canada, WHICH IS REGION 1, as is the USA..
a Cartoon or movie that was on 1 system/.. isnt available in your area, but you find it in another country..."YOU" CANT WATCH/LISTEN to it threw the REGULAR' channels..

This is as bad as the OLD system of shipping music and video in HARD MODE, DVD/TAPE/RECORDS around the USA. WHO gets what and where and HOW MUCH is a pain in the Butt.
Look all over your area, even your friends want the same thing..and its NOT THERE...go 20-2000 miles away and THERE IS IT..
Then you wonder WHY those Old record shops that RESOLD albums did so well...
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That One Guy (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:54pm

Re: Re: 'If I'm going to be considered a criminal either way...'
Oh I've long stopped buying the 'we're doing this to combat copyright infringement' excuse, and instead treat such things as what they almost certainly are, attempts to kill off competition, attempts to get free money for nothing, and/or attempts to regain if not increase the control they have over the market.

There's only so long I can buy they 'they just don't know better' excuse before it transitions to 'they know better, they're just lying about their motives/what they're actually after.'
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Thad (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 1:59pm

This does change my opinion a bit, as Apple negotiating around region locks would require a lot of additional international negotiating (the studio the distributes a movie in one country may not have the rights to it in another). It's a tangled mess and something of a nightmare.

That said, if anyone's got the resources and the clout to do it, it's Apple.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:00pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.

Your hitler or swastika shirt isn't acceptable in any region.

Swastikas are acceptable in certain religious contexts, not that it helps the argument.
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DB (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:01pm

Globalism: it is just for the corporations
Corporations want to source and sell into a global market for their goods, but they want to segment the market for higher profit.

As a worker I'm supposed to compete against low wage labor, but my $160 textbook costs $6 in India. (The only difference: lower quality paper.)
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Ninja (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:03pm

Re: No, it's worse
"is a much worse stance for Apple."

And yet they are bound by the current broken stupidity that is copyright. What else could they do?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:07pm

Re: So...say I really like a film...

How do I find and acquire versions of films for other regions?

Unauthorized downloads. Or if you'd prefer to give your support to ridiculous legalism, hop on a plane and buy a local media player and media after you arrive. If not available in physical form, you might have some trouble (some online distributors may disallow you from having multiple accounts).
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:10pm

Re: Re: I bet there is a way around this geo blocking thing

And then they're legally a pirate

Legally a copyright infringer (AFAIK, "pirate" hasn't made it to legal codes yet). If VPNs were writting into local copyright law, and if nothing like fair use or common sense applies, for which I'd take an "innocent until proven liable" stance.
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JoeCool (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:11pm

Re: So...say I really like a film...
In 'Demolition Man', the movie studio auctioned off the right to be the Restaurant that won the Franchise Wars. In the US, that was Taco Bell, but in Europe it was Pizza Hut. So the different region version of 'Demolition Man' ARE different in that respect.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:16pm

Re: Distributors

It's antiquated in today's world, but so is much of the entertainment industry today. There is probably some stupid contract right on those films digital distribution that prevents their transfer between regions.

"Stupid" is right, and people are right to be giving a trillion-dollar company (Apple) flack for agreeing to it. That's probably bigger than all the film studios combined. They could easily do what Sony did when the entertainment industry was working against them: buy a studio.
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David, 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
If the Navy can do it... Until Google Maps came to the drowning, of course.
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David, 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:22pm

Re: Re:
What if you don't move but the country does?
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Thad (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:32pm

Re: tl;dr
It depends on who's making that excuse.

I'm a lot likelier to accept "they just don't know better" as an explanation if it's coming from an author or artist than if it's coming from a publisher or distributor.
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crade (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:45pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Well, the left facing ones are different... Right facing ones that the Nazis used I think are not really acceptable basically in any sort of new material anywhere.
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Copywrong shill, 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:52pm

Insanity? This is copyright!
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Rico R, 17 Sep 2018 @ 2:57pm

Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Can someone explain the logic as to how restricting content to certain regions has NOTHING to do with copyright? It has everything to do with copyright, or rather, the current copyright regime that believes they own the absolute right to control everything you buy. Forget taking the content you PURCHASED in one country to your new one; we have different deals with distributors/we have a slightly different version of the film in your new country/some other BS reason to take away what you've already bought with your own money. Copyright's purpose was to promote progress. Explain to me how taking content you legally purchased away just because you moved promotes progress?

The reason people like me keep talking about the need to change copyright laws (or, as you put it, complaining) is that this nonsense is somehow allowed. Anti-consumer? Yes. Perfectly legal? Of course, it is! Yet Hollywood and other corporations think the only problem with copyright law is that there's nothing being done to stop piracy. News flash: This anti-consumer behavior is what pushes people to piracy. If this iTunes customer illegally downloaded those three movies instead of buying it on iTunes and uploaded those movies to his private Google Drive account, guess what? Those movies would still be there! Yet, rather than invest in ways to make their products and services better, they'd rather stick to the anti-consumer status quo and lobby for stronger copyright laws that will harm innovation. And if we don't stand up and speak out about these issues, who will?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 3:03pm

Re: Re: ...
Yes, but physically having access to a player from another region (or one that 'ignores' region codes)

The disc itself may have a region code on it, but so far there's not a way for the disc itself to detect that it's located in the wrong region.
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David, 17 Sep 2018 @ 3:08pm

Re: Re: region licenses
That's not how it works with region-coded DVDs, but then region-coded DVDs are not tied to a single user and can be resold. Frankly, if a particular user is going to "save money" by travelling around half the world, chances are that he'll still put down a whole lot of money for his copies.

This is turning a bad solution to a self-made problem into an awful solution for a non-problem.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 4:05pm

Demoman -- the last restaurant
Both Pizza Hut and Taco Bell are Pepsico, so it's quite possible that both will be right in the future.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 4:33pm

Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.

Yet Hollywood and other corporations think the only problem with copyright law is that there's nothing being done to stop piracy.

Replace piracy with competition, and you know what their real objective in beating the piracy drum is, and that is restoring their control as gatekeepers to the works that get published.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 4:48pm

Re: Demoman -- the last restaurant
Somehow I have a hard time imagining John Spartan and Lenina Huxley having as elegant a meal in a Pizza Hut rather than a Taco Bell.

But maybe I have some food prejudices. Or a lack of imagination. Or difficulty imagining any Pepsico product becoming 'it' as they are all about quantity and limited menus rather than quality and the concept of the 'set of all food' along with possibilities.

But it was a fun movie (the Taco Bell one, I cannot speak to the Pizza Hut one as I am regionally prevented from seeing it).
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Thad (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 5:05pm

Re: Demoman -- the last restaurant

Both Pizza Hut and Taco Bell are Pepsico

Not anymore. Pepsi spun its restaurants division in 1997; it's now known as Yum! Brands.

But they're both owned by the same corporate parent, yes, and at the time Demolition Man was made, that corporate parent was Pepsi.
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John Smith, 17 Sep 2018 @ 5:08pm

iF I WERE ON A JURY I WOULD AWARD THIS GUY A REFUND FROM Apple, pattorney fees, due to Apple not properly informing him of this in a "reasonable" manner. if it's "rare" then let Apple eat the cost of providing him with the same access in Canada.

This would address the situation without weakening copyright law. As someone who has created works that could be licensed in many regions, I don't want to have to globally sign away y rights just because someone in Togo wants to produce one of my books etc. (no, my work is not coming to a Togo television station anytime soon for who would inevitably ask).
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 5:16pm

Re:

This would address the situation without weakening copyright law. As someone who has created works that could be licensed in many regions, I don't want to have to globally sign away y rights j

If it on the Internet, it is on a truly global distribution system, and streaming is not TV.. Regional rights made sense when printing and distribution were carried out on a country by country basis, but now that shipping is global, that no longer applies.

As T.V is performance rights, company by company licensing sort of make sense, but beware that you need a secretarial and legal department to handle it, unless you wish yo spend a large amount of time dealing with queries, and doing your own marketing. So selling your rights to an agency that can deal with that is usually the better option.
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Bamboo Harvester (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 5:21pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
More to the point, should Amazon remove copies of every movie "bought" with the buy button about WWII? Because of the swastikas?

You either want free speech or you want only what YOU deem "acceptable" speech.

I've seen plenty of idiots wear swastikas on clothing. Usually white bikers. Not to mention tattoos.
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Thad (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 5:38pm

Re: Re: Demoman -- the last restaurant
Pepsi spun off its restaurants division in 1997.

Jeez. I don't words today.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 5:41pm

Re: Re:
Why do you have to sell your rights to an agency to have them enforced? Why cannot you hire some agency to perform these duties and not give up your rights?

Now you are correct in that the concept of regional distribution is not longer a needed thing (except in the minds of people who are solely concerned with monetary output and see regional licensing as an asset), but there is the potential opportunity to license translations to those regions that might need translations, but I would not expect that to produce any significant revenue. The alternatives to paying a premium for a translation are not insignificant. Offering translated versions, easily obtainable anywhere, seems like a better method of moving product off the shelf (so to speak).

Which brings us to the point. What are the appropriate methods of reducing 'piracy' (a poor choice of words, infringer's is better, but the nomenclature has evolved)? Remove restrictions, offer better access, offer a reasonable price, make it easy to buy, connect with your fans and give them a reason to buy, listen to the market (not what you want to hear, but what they actually say), offer something they might want (discerned by listening to the market, not your own 'feelings about what they want'), and offering your product to undeserved markets for free, but the OP of this thread doesn't listen to reason. He thinks he knows better than anyone else.
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John Smith, 17 Sep 2018 @ 5:46pm

Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Can a simple contract rather than copyright law give a creator this control?

Do we get to tell a contractor how much they can charge to fix our houses?
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takitus (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 5:48pm

Re: region licenses
Does Apple state that “purchases” made through iTunes are in fact rentals, and that access to content depends on you paying a new license fee each time you move?

No? In that case, they must claw the license fee out of their own funds.

If they’re unhappy with a copyright system that creatues these situations, it behooves them to throw their massive weight behind reform, rather than passing the pain on to their customers.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 5:51pm

Re:

I think the constant theme is they look for ways to make you pay them again and again for no reason other than they rigged the system to benefit them.

Take out "again and again" and you've described copyright. Illicit downloading is better in almost every way possible—and would be way better if not for legal concerns—leaving some vague sense of illegality as the main reason to avoid it. That, or the payors don't understand Hollywood Accounting, and think that money could go to someone they care about.
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John Smith, 17 Sep 2018 @ 5:59pm

Re: Re:
Coopyright insanity doesn't begin with retail: anyone who touches a product can wind up with an equal share of the rights, especially if they alter the script in any way (then they get a writing credit). Properly dividing up the rights is enough to make a lawyer very wealthy, and not doing it is a way to make that lawyer even wealthier.

Te creator has to decide whether "show" or "business" comes first. Almost all the disputed content here is more "business" than 'show." A true artist loves to get paid, and to get rich, but will produce first and ask questions later. The audience doesn't pay to see people neogitate contracts and rights, nor should it.

Many shows are important from one country to another, like Dancing With The Stars or even "Cash Cab," which has different versions in six different countries or whatever. There's a legitimate reason for regionalizing contnt, but it would certainly be simpier if this ghost were given up. I don't know if it would be more profitable or not, since so much else would change.

Now I'm wondering if I violated some regional rights by watching Univision's coverage of the World Cup soccer matches to hear Andres Cntor yelling GOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL!
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nasch (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 6:15pm

Re: Re: Re: region licenses

That's not how it works with region-coded DVDs

Yes it is. I can take a DVD and DVD player anywhere I want and play it. The movie studio can't come into my house and take it away if I move to the wrong country.
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JoeCool (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 6:18pm

Re: Re: Distributors
The problem with that was Sony buying media companies saw Sony infected with the same disease the media companies have. Sony is little different than any other media company these days as the infection consumed the entire company.
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JoeCool (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 6:22pm

Re: Re: Demoman -- the last restaurant
It's a great movie - one of my favorites. I have seen the Pizza Hut version, and all they did was change any Taco Bell graphics to Pizza Hut, and any place an actor says Taco Bell, they dubbed over the voice with the actor saying Pizza Hut... which was actually dubbed pretty badly. The words don't quite match the mouth.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 6:39pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Exactly. Swastika is a very common religious symbol in India and used everyday in temples/homes in religious ceremonies. Majority of the uneducated population in India doesn't know about Hitler or how it was used as a Nazi symbol. So an Indian guy wearing a swastika is very normal.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 7:10pm

Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
If it’s in the contract, yes. The hint is in the name.

Are you sure you’re an multimillionaire independent businessman?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 8:03pm

Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.

Do we get to tell a contractor how much they can charge to fix our houses?

The contractor can name whatever price they want, but that doesn't mean they're going to get it, or that they're entitled to that price. They can say "I want $100,000 to fix that thing and I won't do it for less" all they want. Demanding a certain amount of money because they feel "they're worth it" or something isn't going to go very far.

So no, we don't get to tell them how much they can charge, but we do get to tell them how much we're willing to pay. They can accept that or go out of business.

I don't feel the ability to play a single song as much as I like, in perpetuity, is worth much more than a dollar or so, or a 45-60 minute album is worth more than about $12. If the rightsholder wants more than that, I won't pay, and I also won't pirate it. The rightsholder can meet my price, or they can go out of business.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 8:12pm

Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Mike Masnick is a complete fucking idiot. Can I complain about that?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 9:20pm

Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Sure you could, but the community does not seem to like the idea of people going to a site run by someone they do not like simply to insult and complain about them.

Some of us actually like to read what Mike thinks... It is technically a blog after all.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2018 @ 9:35pm

Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Likely because actual Kids are put down by adults for merely thinking and even more for doing something. Then adults have the gall to ask why Kids aren't doing anything.

Not all entertainment is mindless. In fact, a well written piece of media has great potential to teach or cultivate a person's mind. The people that dismiss that potential are the ones to fail future generations from the very start.
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techflaws (profile), 17 Sep 2018 @ 9:49pm

Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Yeah, and since YOU are the complete fucking idiot it's you who's getting reported. Funny how that works, huh?
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PaulT (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 12:52am

"And, here the situation is slightly more confusing"

Actually, it's not confusing at all, it's something people who travel regularly have to put up with on a nearly daily basis. It's also getting worse, since instead of having, say, a region 2 DVD that covers the whole of Europe, they're now imposing restriction per country - all this in a supposed single market where we're meant to be import at will between countries.

It's nice that this has got so much traction, but it's hardly new and a shame that facts were so thin on the ground initially. But one thing is still clear - the blame is on the antiquated, increasingly unworkably licencing system, not on Apple.
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John Smith, 18 Sep 2018 @ 12:57am

Re: Metioned before.
Dawson's Creek is now streaming on Hulu, with a different theme song, and with almost all of the music from the original show replaced or edited out, to the point where it's not even the same series.

If you ever want to hate yourself for being white, watch that show.
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PaulT (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 1:20am

Re: Re: Re:
"There's a legitimate reason for regionalizing contnt"

Regionalising the content? Sure. Blocking people from accessing other versions because you demand that people only watch whatever they want to target toward the patch of dirt they happen to be sat on at the time - often at odds with what the viewer actually wants to access? No, and that's where you start running into problems.

"Now I'm wondering if I violated some regional rights by watching Univision's coverage of the World Cup soccer matches to hear Andres Cntor yelling GOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL!"

Probably. The industries you endlessly support would certainly rather you didn't have the choice, so that you can only be sold the restricted selection they choose to offer whatever silo they want to store you in.

But, you probably won't admit where the problems really lie, even though you have admitted you know they exist.
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PaulT (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 1:22am

Re:
"I don't want to have to globally sign away y rights just because someone in Togo wants to produce one of my books etc. (no, my work is not coming to a Togo television station anytime soon for who would inevitably ask).

Why are you deliberately refusing your known potential consumer base access to your work, and then complaining when they pirate it instead after you refused to sell to them?

Also, books? I thought you claimed to be owed millions from your music career? Hmmm...
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PaulT (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 1:23am

Re: Re: Metioned before.
"Dawson's Creek is now streaming on Hulu, with a different theme song..."

So, it's not the same work and people will wish to obtain the original, even if the only option available to them is piracy. That's a choice of the industry not to sell it to them, not the consumer for having no choice.

Yet, you will blame people taking the only option available for doing so, rather than the industry for forcing that choice on to them.
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PaulT (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 1:25am

Re: Re: Re: ...
"The disc itself may have a region code on it, but so far there's not a way for the disc itself to detect that it's located in the wrong region."

The disc doesn't detect anything, just as it doesn't play itself, that's down to the player - and most players respect the region codes (along with other idiocy like not allowing you to skip trailers and anti-piracy warning on the disc you bought, that pirates will never see).
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PaulT (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 1:28am

Re: Re: So...say I really like a film...
Weird thing about that - I watched the movie once at the cinema when it was first released and, then many times on video afterwards and I only remember the Taco Bell version. Not sure if I'm just forgetting the original version having seen the TB version afterwards or if I have a strange Mandela effect thing going on...
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PaulT (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 1:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: region licenses
"Yes it is. I can take a DVD and DVD player anywhere I want and play it."

But, you're not guaranteed to be able to use the DVD player in the new location, nor are you guaranteed to be able to get the movies through customs.

The only difference is that with discs they haven't been able to get around the first sale doctrine, but they can to a degree with digital due to claiming it's a licence rather than purchase, even if the button you click to access it says "buy".
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2018 @ 2:29am

Re: Re:
There are more works than ever being made available for free, or on a voluntary support the creator basis than any individual can keep up with. Direct your attention and support in that direction, and the maximalists will lose custom, money and power, and those with a desire for an audience will also move to that model.
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Vikarti Anatra (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 6:53am

Re: Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Not acceptable? Rly?
Did you saw Iron Sky moive ? A LOT of swastikas and Hitler portraits. Some characters even said that swastika is symbol of peace.
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Vikarti Anatra (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 6:59am

Re: I bet there is a way around this geo blocking thing
>So does all Dasilva needs to do is log in to an Australian VPN and the items should be there and downloadable again... or is IP region hopping like that somehow illegal in the minds of these people as well?

VPN will not help.
IP does NOT matter here. Only country in iTunes account does.
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PaulT (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 7:02am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Yes, they did. But, anyone with a brain knows that it's a satire set in a fictional alternate universe. If that's your bar for what's acceptable, I'm not sure how to help you.
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nasch (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 8:35am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: region licenses

But, you're not guaranteed to be able to use the DVD player in the new location

As long as I bring the right power adapter I am.

nor are you guaranteed to be able to get the movies through customs.

We're getting pretty far afield in the analogy now since customs doesn't inspect internet downloads.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2018 @ 8:55am

Re:
The cartels want global markets for themselves and a bunch of little ones for their customers. When they buy something for pennies and sell it for tens of dollars it is smart arbitrage. When others do it they are thieves. (See every anti-reimportation bill and case.)
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PaulT (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 8:58am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: region licenses
"As long as I bring the right power adapter I am."

Well, depending on the local TV standard, maybe. It's more likely than in the the past but there's a number of issues that mean most people are really not going to bother.

"We're getting pretty far afield in the analogy now since customs doesn't inspect internet downloads."

Well, maybe. My point was just that while they may not exactly be beating down your front door, it's certainly possible for your collection to be confiscated either way if you come across the wrong situation when you cross into that new country.

I actually remember having this happen when I was a teenager. I went on holiday to Cyprus with my family, and at the time there were shelves of pirated videos pretty much everywhere around tourist areas. I picked up a few new blockbusters that hadn't even been released back home at the time, along with a few of the "video nasties" that were either officially banned or not legally available due to the BBFC refusing to certify them. When I got back to the UK, some of the videos were missing from my suitcase. They had taken the new releases, but not the ones I couldn't get to see legally!

It's not a great analogy for the specific situation I suppose, but it certainly isn't unheard of whether you're dealing with physical or digital items.
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Thad (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 9:01am

Re: Re: region licenses

Does Apple state that “purchases” made through iTunes are in fact rentals, and that access to content depends on you paying a new license fee each time you move?

I'm sure it's in the fine print. But no, they sure don't go out of their way to publicize it.
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Paul Keating (profile), 18 Sep 2018 @ 9:51am

Frontier Copyright Police
You obviously have not heard. There is a new agency - the FCP - who also searches the boxes of unsuspecting expats who move out of the US to another country. The confiscate any book or other material that has not been authorized for distribution in the country of destination. They are nice enough to place a card inside the box informing you that if you wish to recover their confiscated items you can change your mind about moving................
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Wendy Cockcroft, 19 Sep 2018 @ 5:47am

Re: illegal false advertising... or theft
Ditto. But Our Glorious Leaders are showing no interest in doing that. They love a bit of fraud if it's related to The Preciousss, I mean copyright.

I think I know why: if people realised they don't actually own what they "bought" there would be rucktions and therefore change. The left is as bad as the right on this, I know one dedicated socialist who claims it's a matter of principle that the creator should benefit from the work of hand or brain. I agree, but that right ends where my rights begin. And that, dearly beloved, is where my deep and abiding hatred of being lied to by authoritarian gits comes from. And it's how I was won over to the "abolish copyright" cause. If they can't play nicely with their toys, they can't have them.
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Wendy Cockcroft, 19 Sep 2018 @ 5:49am

Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
News flash: This anti-consumer behavior is what pushes people to piracy.

Confirmed correct.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2018 @ 5:53am

Re: Re: Re: So, obviously, your hysterical screeching was wrong.
Can a simple contract rather than copyright law give a creator this control?

That depends on the terms of the contract.

Do we get to tell a contractor how much they can charge to fix our houses?

I do that all the time, it's my job. It's called "competition." It works like this: "Hey contractor, your rival, Xtra Value Drainage Services, just came back with a quote @ £1,000 less than yours. Please can you take another look at the costs and advise as to why this is the case."

Effectively, I just told "contractor" what to charge us. If I don't get the response I want, Xtra Value gets the gig.
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