Utter Insanity: Trump Lawyer Suggests Former Trump Cybersecurity Official Should Be 'Taken Out And Shot' For Saying The Election Was Secure
from the what-is-wrong-with-these-people? dept
Every day that I think I can't be shocked and horrified by anything being done in the name of politics today, I end up being more shocked and more horrified. The latest is that one of the President's campaign lawyers, Joe diGenova, who has been involved in a wide range of politically motivated conspiracy theory mongering, went on the Howie Carr show to say that fired CISA director Chris Krebs should be "taken out and shot."
There's a lot to unpack here. First off, we wrote about Krebs being fired by Trump for daring to contradict the narrative that the election was rigged. Krebs is one of a very few Trump appointees who was widely respected across the political spectrum. In his years running the newly created Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA), he'd been praised by many for the job he had done in actually dealing with cybersecurity threats, and coordinating information sharing about such threats to the private sector.
But him telling the truth and debunking the politically motivated nonsense the President and his dwindling team of supporters are trying to spew, apparently means that Krebs has been cast out as the enemy. Making matters worse (for Trump and his supporters) was that on Sunday, 60 Minutes had Krebs on, in which he made a very credible case that the President was just making shit up in claiming that there was interference or malfeasance in the election. In fact, in that interview, Krebs highlighted the death threats that are being made against election officials, rightly calling it "a travesty" that public servants are put through this nonsense.
And it's, in my view, a travesty what's happening right now with all these death threats to election officials, to secretaries of state. I want everybody to look at Secretary Boockvar in Pennsylvania, Secretary Benson in Michigan, Secretary Cegavske in Nevada, Secretary Hobbs in Arizona. All strong women that are standing up, that are under attack from all sides, and they're defending democracy. They're doin' their jobs. Look at-- look at Secretary Raffensperger in Georgia, lifelong Republican. He put country before party in his holding a free and fair election in that state. There are some real heroes out there. There are some real patriots.
And now Krebs is facing the same nonsense.
Howie Carr, the host of the show is a long time, Boston-based, Trump-supporting talk show host and columnist. He had diGenova on his show, which was simulcast to Newsmax (one of the two Trump-loving TV networks trying to take over the insane conspiracy theory pushing crown from Fox News) and allowed diGenova to say that Krebs should be killed. Carr doesn't appear to have the video of it up on his own YouTube channel yet, but MediaMatters has the clip that you can see for yourself.
diGenova: This was not a coincidence. This was all planned. And anybody who thinks the election went well, like that idiot Krebs who used to be the head of cybersecurity for DHS.
Carr:: Oh yeah, the guy who was on 60 Minutes last night.
diGenova: That guy... that guy is a class A moron. He should be drawn and quartered. Taken out at dawn and shot,
Carr then chuckles for a bit before changing the subject.
Let's be totally clear: this is offensive and dangerous. It would be offensive and dangerous coming from anyone, but the fact that it's coming from a lawyer currently representing the President of the United States is completely and utterly terrifying. No, it almost certainly doesn't reach the "true threats" test of the Supreme Court to be speech not protected by the 1st Amendment, but that doesn't mean it's not wildly inappropriate and dangerous.
I understand that Trump's circle of grifters and hanger-ons will not let truth, accuracy, or common decency stand in the way of spreading their cult of bullshit, lies, FUD, and nonsense, but the rest of the country ought to speak up and make it clear that this is totally unacceptable. And that includes Republicans in Congress who have continued to try to look the other way or pretend that what Trump and his band of legal misfits are doing is totally normal and acceptable. It is not.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: chris krebs, election security, elections, howie carr, joe digenova, rhetoric
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
Right now, in some dank corner of North Carolina, or maybe the Dakotas, there's at least one pea-brained Q militia member furiously Googling "drawn and quartered", and looking up Krebs' address.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Cruel and Usual modes of execution
I once looked it up as part of my understanding of the Guillotine, and why that was a humane execution in comparison to what came before. (Typically, the breaking wheel)
Enemies of Hitler were hanged by piano wire to assure they died slowly. Kim Jong Un has tried a number of pages from the evil overlord manual including a tank of hungry piranha and a pack of starved attack dogs. Those are hard on the animals those.
Execution by autocannon (which Kim also tried) is probably more humane than most.
We literarians notice the absence of victims getting bricked into a wall, which gives them hours to suffer. Days with sufficient ventilation. This has some of the standard deathtrap problems that he might escape if it's poorly built, or be rescued if his buddies are well organized and equipped -- and can learn where he is; a remote location keeps the cadaver from stinking up the place, or attracting detection dogs.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
... and giggling maniacally at something he thinks is new, because he didn't pay attention in World History class, back in the 8th or 9th grade. (Which he failed for 3 years in a row, and was finally passed on because of the PC "no child left behind" crap.)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
(Which he failed for 3 years in a row, and was finally passed on because of the PC "no child left behind" crap.)
That's not how any of those things work.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
He's gonna need three friends with horses, among other things.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: 3 friends with horses
Pestilence, War and Famine? Is this what Sidney Powell was alluding to?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Good old stochastic terrorism
As if people really needed more evidence of just how utterly vile and insane Trump's cult is. One of Trump's lawyers says that someone should be murdered because the man had the utter audacity to refuse to go along with Trump's deranged lies and conspiracy theories and he gets a laugh for it.
Ramping up the horrifying insanity is that due to how deranged and psychotic Trump cultists are were I in Kreb's shoes I would very much consider that something that needs to be concerned about as a real threat, because those people have shown that they are entirely unhinged enough that it would not be out of character for one of them to follow through on a 'suggestion' like that, all the more so given Trump's been fanning the flames for weeks now about how the very country is at stake if he loses.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Good old stochastic terrorism
"One of Trump's lawyers says that someone should be murdered..."
You gotta wonder what the state bar thinks about that. It may technically be legal speech but that doesn't mean lawyers should be able to get away with such shockingly unprofessional behavior.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Should? No. Do? All the time.
Counter-examples: Liebowitz and/or Prenda.
When it comes to policing their own the various state bars seem to be content to sit back and watch unless someone doesn't just cross the line but pole-vault over it multiple times over a long period of time, such that a 'totally not a hint for someone to rid him of a troublesome priest' comment isn't likely to get more than an exasperated sigh.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Shockingly unprofessional behavior.
We discovered those brakes had failed when Kavanaugh was appointed. He bellowed and lambasted at his confirmation...and was then confirmed.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
And if someone listening to diGenova acts on that request for a murder, diGenova can (and likely will) say he was only “joking” and didn’t explicitly tell anyone to “do anything violent”. Gotta love plausible deniability~.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
'How could I have known the kleptomaniac would steal something?'
Well, legally viable deniability anyway, 'plausible' might be pushing it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
this is the mentality of, not just supporters and representatives but of Trump himself! and we were stupid enough to give him the most powerful position in the world! we must be equally as dulally as them!!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Speak for yourself. I sure as hell didn't vote for him... either time. I pity anyone who did.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Didn't vote for him.
It's telling that he won without the popular vote. It's telling that it's the second time in a row the Republican candidate won without the popular vote and led the nation into an era of ruin.
It's also telling the Electoral College failed to organize to not vote for him, and that 25th Amendment provisions failed despite Trump being a clear case of diminished capacity. (It's why his lawyers wouldn't let him get deposed by Muller even though he wanted to.)
And it's telling that the Senate was too captured to remove him from office even though the Ukraine affair was only the tip of the iceberg regarding Trump's high crimes.
So every last provision to oust a tyrant failed.
Now the question is if -- once we wrest that power from him -- the US can see its way to addressing all these failures. Or it will happen again.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Didn't vote for him.
Must have been such a choice, pretending the guy is ok and wanting a certain precedent, vs. getting rid of crazy-pants and having a standard evil right-wing party hack like Pence as president and their "leader".
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Didn't vote for him.
It will happen again, history is littered with failed governments/leaders/warlords. The same mistakes are repeated as though they were new and unexpected, the people are told this will never happen again.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Didn't vote for him.
The old saying has been extended: he who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it... and those who do learn are doomed to watch others repeat it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
"Speak for yourself. I sure as hell didn't vote for him... either time. I pity anyone who did."
You may not have. Some 70% of the US citizenry may not have. But very very few among those 70% even gave a toss about the nation sliding toward a paradigm where Trump was not just a possibility but an inevitable expressed symptom of the fact that 30% of the US citizenry is by now a malign cancerous tumor.
The problem is that because most sane americans spent most of their time from the early 80's trying to remain cordial with the increasingly radicalized voter base of the GOP any future GOP candidate will be another Trump, or worse, a more subtle and actually competent version of it.
The current generation of GOP voters have been brought up to hate, loathe, and eagerly await the chance to kill the "liberal lefties". Meanwhile the saner majority have been brought up to respect and tolerate dissent, failing to realize that tolerance demands reciprocity and anyone refusing to extend such tolerance needs to be met with no such in return.
"Not voting for him" isn't enough. Not any longer, because the alt-right are going nowhere, even if their current Chosen One is getting the sack.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
It's OK, it's not like the POTUS can call for killing of someone and then pardon whoever kills them...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Any such murder would likely be state charges, so he really couldn't pardon it (though it wouldn't be surprising if neither understood that).
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
D.C. is under federal jurisdiction, so Trump could pardon any murders that took place there.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
A "Change Of Venue" motion will move it to one of the states, due to overexposure in the press pretty much obliterating the defendant's chances of a fair trial.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
He could also pardon murders that involve shooting across state lines, or perhaps transporting across state lines.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Congress could impeach him for such actions regardless of pardon. So as long as he shoots someone unimportant politically or economically then he's safe today since his party would victim shame the dead person and not vote to convict.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
"Congress could impeach him"? I had a good laugh at that.
I'd be willing to bet good money that if Trump had a second term in office, he'd become brazen enough to kill off critics. Sure, the killing would be made to look like an accident, but still.
Then when killings were linked back to Trump, the House would impeach him (again) and the Republican-controlled Senate would refuse to hear the case (again), so Trump would get away with it (again), and he'd further learn that there are no consequences to anything he does.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
They do not value truth, only political domination. By their logic, telling the truth is treasonous when it works against the GOP. Everything they are doing is war by another means.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Both sides.
If this happened in reverse and democrat had wanted a recount, can you see How the trump groupies would be fighting back?
THE SAME WAY.
In all of this, if there is 1 chance in hell, if something Had messed things up, ON PURPOSE. What insider would think, if it FAILED.
Say a group, figured the numbers from the last election, and Thought they could slip in a few here and there to LEAN it to where they wanted. But the number of voters BEAT their estimates.
Now unless 1 side or the other, Declares they DID fake the election, and can SHOW HOW they did. There is nothing they can do.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
"THE SAME WAY"
You believe Democrats would be seeking to shoot Republicans after an electoral injustice?
Because we totally had one in 2000, and while plenty of Democrats were considering fleeing the nation (and rightly so, considering the next eight years) we weren't looking to shoot Republicans.
Now once the Republicans on the street started defending torture programs set up by the administration, yes, a lot of us were entertaining thoughts of murder, but that's because we believed the people we were related to were not just curmudgeonly but downright evil.
Now that those old curmudgeonly Republicans want the police to come take us away and pack us on the cattle trains, maybe we were right.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: "THE SAME WAY"
Read it again, I think you misunderstood him.
FWIW, I had to read it twice.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Reading it again
Oh you're right.
I read it as the Democrats would react the same way as the Republicans did this time were the roles reverse
He was saying The Republicans were itching for a fight regardless of who contested the election results.
Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert both called out Karl-Rove-era Republicanism saying it was leading to this.
I don't blame Rove on the process itself, but I do blame him on capitalizing on it and fueling the engine.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
And look at the praise that some idiot kid from Illinois gets from the wacked-out-right when he crosses state lines and kills two innocent people!
The whole lot of them think that violence against your supposed enemy must the American way.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
It's what happens when you calcify the behavior of the "wild west" into a sociopolitical religion.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
NO it isnt, the wild west attitude.
Its the same one built into Every religion.
Its the same as Built into Every 1 sided group.
"WE are right, you are Wrong, and if you dont believe me, I will kill you", Thats been around TO LONG.
The idea, "Im a Christian" means little if you dont act like one, Nor you dont get the point that there are AT LEAST 40 groups of different Christians.
Most of these people declaring, idiocy. Tend to not even know what a republican is/wants.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
"I'm a Christian"
There are about 40,000 denominations of Christianity. Not including nondenominational churches which don't officially have a creed that defines specifically what they believe, and how that's different from other adjacent faiths.
Fun Info: Rick Wiles (the pastor / radio personality who thinks BLM protestors should be shot mentioned in the thread) ministers the Flowing Streams Church in Vero Beach, Florida. Reading his bio, he very, very much wants to be a cult leader. I suspect his church stands for what he feels like it stands for, and doesn't have much to do with the philosophies of Jesus of Nazareth.
More Fun Info: Law Enforcement doesn't like new cults and sects very much, because we've had some dangerous radical ones who got shooty and mass-suicidal. As a result, NRMs will either delay their establishment of a creed or will join the most aligned church and become a sect to absorb some of the older church's legitimacy. The former seems to be what Pastor Wiles is doing to avoid too much FBI scrutiny, even though he's pretty open in his positions of hate, and is total cult-leader material.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: "I'm a Christian"
Maybe Rick Wiles is one of these, Matthew 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Warning against false prophets. (And false profits)
Except the Christian masses are terrible at (proverbially) determining coral snakes from milk snakes, as shown by the high rates votes for Trump by Protestant Evangelicals and Catholics, even though both parties knew in advance Trump's moral character was sevenfold miscreant what ministries condemned in prior Presidents. They knew this, and in the greatest wave of Christian pragmatism in history (at least that I know of), voted for him twice.
When we look around the spectrum of Christianity, prosperity theology and hate-fueled sermons that demonize Others (mostly women and gays) are what fill the pews. While there are plenty of churches that preach tolerance and goodwill, they're not popular with parish counts of tens of millions.
So when Jesus was bidding his followers to recognize false prophets and cast them away, he was really overestimating their judge of character.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Warning against false prophets. (And false profits)
Prosperity Theology - you CAN serve God and Mammon
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Warning against false prophets. (And false profits)
Part of the problem is that the desperate make for easy suckers (and way too many of our TV-personality ministers have demonstrated themselves to be confidence men). You can anticipate the destitute to exhibit greed, the starving to exhibit gluttony, the oppressed and helpless to exhibit envy and wrath.
One point that is a consistent failure of capitalism is that we can't expect people stuck in the lower tiers of Maslow's Hierarchy to be able to think rationally. (And not be moved by demagogy)
Capitalism sucks at this.
Charity -- which is the Judeo-Christian and feudal remedy, also sucks at this.
Socialist programs do it half-assed but are better than anything we've tried, including outsourcing benefit programs to corporations or religious institutions.
It's one of those places where I have to admit I Am Not An Expert (either) and don't know the answer.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Warning against false prophets. (And false profits)
"They knew this, and in the greatest wave of Christian pragmatism in history (at least that I know of), voted for him twice."
I'd hold the greatest act of christian pragmatism is still the council of Nicea in 325 AD. That's when emperor Constantine had all the various sects of christianity gathered and told them, "Look, I don't care what you believe in but if you can show me a holy book you all agree on I'll take it as the state religion".
The result of which were hundreds of bible versions tossed on the bonfire and what was left tinkered with until Holy Scripture miraculously fell in line with what the movers and shakers wanted said and heard. And that politically convenient remnant is what is today known as "The Bible".
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
The sort of conservatism and behavior the current cultists subscribe to is entirely a wild-west mindset.
The fact that religions by and large tend to be outrageously intolerant of other religions and non-believers is simply why i referred to the syndrome as a religion. But religions in the sense of intolerant belief-systems are merely part of a larger human condition. Military worship, nationalism, religions, the way capitalism is done, anti-vax, q-anon, flat-eatherism, sexism, and racism are just examples.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Pastor Urges Trump Admin to 'Shoot' Democrats, Journalists if They Conspired to 'Rig' Election
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Plot twist, Pastor finds out the only ones conspiring to rig election were members of the GOP and recommends they all get metals of honor.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
So when is he going to jail for inciting the death of another human being? There's a clear line of a nobody like me saying out of spite that I'd like to shoot somneone and a public person suggesting it seriously.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
The forward march of fascism
Trump's 2016 campaign began with lock her up and it's already been observed and reported that own the libs is slowly turning into kill the libs.
This is one of the dangerous aspects of fascism, there always needs to be an enemy beating at the gates, and it's not enough just to mock them or deny them rights. Eventually Endlösungen are decided to be necessary, and then those identified as enemy have to be expanded to assure their numbers and their threat doesn't dwindle.
The People of the United States bought the ticket and got on board. The train isn't going to slow down to let us disembark.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: The forward march of fascism
For every problem there is someone to blame.
No solutions, no fixes, its always another "THEY DID IT".
Just dont look in their wallet.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: The forward march of fascism
"Trump's 2016 campaign began with lock her up"
Yes, and it's a damn shame that none of his supporters are considering that maybe something should have come of that by now, and that maybe the country would be in much better shape if the worst they had to worry about was a dodgy email server that had been shut down before the election...
"The People of the United States bought the ticket and got on board"
It's often mentioned, but given that Hillary won the popular vote - they didn't. The system allowed the EC votes to override the will of the People. This fact is the thing that keeps me hoping you'll get the country back on track rather than believing you deserve what you got.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: The forward march of fascism
Yeah, I talked about those points up here. The fact that the GOP's last two non-incumbant victories were through the EC despite a popular loss speaks volumes, as did the GOP's failed but obvious efforts to steal the election in 2020.
If it doesn't get fixed really soon then yeah, I might concur with Mr. diGenova that the shooting should begin, even if I disagree with who should be shot.
Truth be told, I can't tell which is the less awful scenario: A civil war or a locked-down fascist state that is rapidly working through its purge list via a genocide machine.
I get the feeling we're headed towards one or the other if Washington is too careless.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: The forward march of fascism
I was told there would be winning
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: The forward march of fascism
Yes, and it's a damn shame that none of his supporters are considering that maybe something should have come of that by now,
QAnon is still a thing... and the central bit of that was what we called Pizzagate. They still believe. Other people keep believing the end times or whatever are coming at specific dates, and don't lose faith when it repeatedly fails to occur, because... faith. People believe shit because they believe.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: The forward march of fascism
"Trump's 2016 campaign began with lock her up and it's already been observed and reported that own the libs is slowly turning into kill the libs."
That process arguably started way earlier. My guess is the idea that "at some point" honest god-fearin' men would have to take up arms and butcher the pinko commie negro-lovin' blasphemous heathens of Sodom and Gomorra got entrenched in the Very Fine People roughly around '68, when they found black people might actually gain equality to white people in practice.
Compounded, probably, by the burning sting of the sexual revolution when women started making it clear that they also weren't property.
What has changed is simple - the internet came along and suddenly it wasn't possible for some good ole boy in Alabama to stand for election without his racist rhetoric being a mainstay topic all over the US. Racist fuckwits discovered, to their dismay, that not only were women and black people insisting on being treated like actual people, they were finding out that outside the isolated echo chambers they lived in they were considered deplorable for asserting differently.
THAT brings us to the GOP finally, with Sarah Palin, officially inviting the racist populist demagoguery into the fold, John McCain being that last holdout of an older style of republican who before his death had to watch everything he'd worked for turning to shit in front of his eyes.
2016 was just the point where the same people who had been stewing in impotent rage for decades found that the official rhetoric started looking a lot more like what they'd expect to hear from their like-minded peers among the Very Fine People over a few strong ones.
"The People of the United States bought the ticket and got on board. The train isn't going to slow down to let us disembark."
That train left the station a long time ago. There were lots of stops with opportunities to get off...but now it seems like the only way to disembark before hitting a very final station seems to be to derail the whole train.
Thanks to the recent election we can finally put a number on how many americans are so besotted with hate and fear they don't care about the cost in being rid of the other - liberals, leftists, foreigners, black people, jews...and anyone non-cis in gender identity or sexual orientation. 73 million. More people, proportionally, than it took for Hitler to make chancellor.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
self-fulfilled prophecy but aimed at the wrong people
Whats crazy is how self-fulfilling Trump's doom and gloom proclamations are. You just have to swap who the perpetrators nd victims for his falshoods to be correct.
He claimed he could restore America and that his opponent (Hillary at the time) would destroy it. Yet he has done a lot of damage to the country himself or through his cronies either through action or inaction on different issues.
It's unknown exactly what the result would have been had any other person been president for the last 4 years but I feel almost any other Republican and Democrat candidate at the time would have done a better job than Trump.
When he projects about fraud and corruption we again can reverse the victims and perpetrators to find out that he and his admin were commiting crimes and pushing voter and election fraud tactics/claims on a large scale in the 2020 election.
When he makes claims that democrates will take away your rights. His party and him have been constantly pushing for the removal of first amendment rights (through removing section 230 and attacks on social media companies) as well as taking away basic rights that should be afforded illegal aliens.
He ground our own government to a halt for a while because he couldn't act like an adult. And stole legally aassignedmoney from armed forces facility contruction budgets to build a useless wall.
Its insane that people saw everything he did or didn't do the last 4 years and thinks he will make America better. Meanwhile those that are doing better are the close rich associates of Trump both in this country and outside of it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: self-fulfilled prophecy but aimed at the wrong people
As the saying(that might as well be considered a 'law' right alongside gravity given how reliable it is) goes, 'Every accusation a confession.'
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: self-fulfilled prophecy but aimed at the wrong people
"He claimed he could restore America"
Yet, strangely, had never given concrete details on what he would restore it to...
"It's unknown exactly what the result would have been had any other person been president for the last 4 years"
Some things are, some things aren't. For example, it's extremely unlikely that Clinton would have dismantled the pandemic apparatus put into place to specifically deal with a COVID type situation, and I think we can safely say that even a different Republican candidate would have spent months watching the current pandemic spiral out of control while simultaneously denying its existence and attacking medical experts - to the point where the country is approaching 9/11 levels of death every day while the White House itself is one of the major infection hotspots.
The general day to day is a little harder to pin down, and there's always things that cannot be controlled or cannot be effectively managed in ways other than what was done. But, there are likely thousands of decisions that nobody but Trump would even have considered.
"When he projects about fraud and corruption we again can reverse the victims and perpetrators to find out that he and his admin were commiting crimes and pushing voter and election fraud tactics/claims on a large scale in the 2020 election."
I'm of the opinion that there's 2 likely reasons why Trump is denying the results of the election, outside of his damaged ego. One is pure grift - he's known to have scammed at least $170 million from his followers, with few restrictions on how it will be used once the last flailing lawsuits have failed. The other is perhaps that he knows the election was suspect - because he tried everything he could to fix it, and can't believe that he could have lost without others doing the same. We already know that he tried damaging mail in voting, I'm sure there are many other things going on.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: self-fulfilled prophecy but aimed at the wrong people
"I feel almost any other Republican and Democrat candidate at the time would have done a better job than Trump."
Democrat, arguably. But it's pretty clear the republican party couldn't produce a candidate which wasn't "Trumpy". Their voter base today won't leave their trailers and mobile homes in suburbia for anyone unwilling to openly call a spade a spade, a gay man an abomination, and a black man a <N-word>. They want someone to make the war against the "lefties and liberals" official.
"Whats crazy is how self-fulfilling Trump's doom and gloom proclamations are. You just have to swap who the perpetrators nd victims for his falshoods to be correct."
It's an old political tactic. Claim something doesn't work, get the power to do something about it, wreck it completely, then present the smoking ruins with a triumphant "See, I told you it wouldn't work!".
Reagan only hinted at it but ever since the republican-democrat switcharound in the 50's and 60's and the southern strategy it's been a long-standing dream of the republican party to win the civil war for the south at long last, at least in part - by making sure the federal government ends up too weakened to affect the states, too overbearing to be liked, and too corrupt to be trusted. At which point no one's going to stop Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama and Texas from bringing back Jim Crow and adopting some christian doom cult version of sharia.
As far as the republicans are concerned, Trump did bring home the bacon.
"Its insane that people saw everything he did or didn't do the last 4 years and thinks he will make America better."
You don't get it. Even as a european standing from outside it's painfully obvious that to 73 million americans "better" means the abolition of the federal government, black people kept away from the honest white folk, gays and trans people kept away from "decent" people, and every liberal leftist stood against a wall and given the choice of a blindfold.
And any suffering accrued as cost for that will blithely be explained away by a thousand pulpit-thumping brimstone preachers as nothing but extra credit for the next life where the chosen will be able to look down on the blasphemous heathens burning in perpetuity.
It's a doom cult of the exact same type as that which laid the foundation for the third reich. To them america doesn't become "great" by people growing more prosperous and free, but by dragging everyone who is more prosperous, more educated and more liberal than them down to their level.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I understand that Trump's circle of grifters and hanger-ons will not let truth, accuracy, or common decency stand in the way of spreading their cult of bullshit, lies, FUD, and nonsense...
That'll change once he doesn't pay the bills.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
...or when somebody on team Trump does a data dump with all the shit that his crony grifters have been doing on his watch. If he goes down, everybody goes down with him.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
"If he goes down, everybody goes down with him."
One can only hope.
It'd be nice if there was a proverbial sinkhole in the center of America we could be ashamed about for half a century. It might turn us towards admitting we're not all that, and becoming great (the first time) takes work and self awareness.
But one can only hope.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Would that that were so. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of his loyal followers, among whom a disturbingly large percentage of the Republican party are so deeply emotionally committed to Trump that they are essentially totally immune to any counter evidence. They will almost certainly continue to believe that the election was stolen by a massive Democrat anti-Turmp conspiracy (which was somehow largely run by Republicans). Even though there is essentially no evidence of said conspiracy and the theories of how it was enacted are refuted by simple facts.
This is the real, lasting damage that Trump has done to America. Not that he has created such reality divorced partisanship - it was there before on all sides - but that he has deepened and entrenched it so much in one of the two major political parties in the US.
Expect a Trump to be running in the republican presidential primaries for 2024 and expect him or her to be very hard to beat.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
I'd be on board with that, if I was sure that a convicted felon serving time could run for the office. Or if that particular situation looks to be looming on his personal horizon, then he'd still be outta luck when trying it from a foreign address, as a fugitive from justice.
Just sayin'.....
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Inmate Candidates
I don't think there are federal laws disqualifying a convict or ex-con from President of the United States.
Hitler had done his time in Landsberg, but then he was appointed Chancellor not through election but through petition. I do expect the methods of the GOP and Trump's supporters to resort to methods at least that radical, I don't know if US institutions will hold up, especially since so many of them have been captured by aligned interests.
One of my fears, for example, is SCOTUS upholding an Ermächtigungsgesetz which it could do even if Roberts clings to his sense of propriety.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Are you having trouble understanding what "a Trump" means?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
He truly is a cult leader, some of his followers are so beholden to him that they don't believe that Covid exists and is fake news, even when they are dying in hospital with it!
And just like any cult leader worth their salt, he's totally screwed with their perception of reality.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
"This is the real, lasting damage that Trump has done to America."
Not really. You could argue that any other republican candidate might have been less hamfisted about it, but there are 73 million americans who demanded a Trump and would get one. And would have taken any Trump over a George Bush or even, by now, a Reagan any day of the week.
Saner americans keep trying to pretend; "It's just Trump. A few coattail riders. And a bunch of racist senators...OK, a few incurable states. Badly educated misinformed people. A major issue, sure, but we can fix this! We have to! As long as we can get bipartisanship again it'll all work out!! We'll get along again!!!".
There's a tone of increasing desperation there, because very few people want to face the truth - which is that 73 million americans are so besotted with hatred, envy, and fear that they'll go to their death beds fueled by unstinting hatred of anyone who isn't in their tribe. This whole generation? Fucked.
They wanted a Trump, and they're the ones who will be picking the GOP candidate for 2024. As you say.
The reality divorced partisanship you imply was there for a long time, and it's been that deep since the 80's. Trump just tore the blinders off.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
He has already collected something like $140mil of slush money for paying those bills in his "Stop the Steal" charade. And no, that money is not for going to the courts. Read the fine print. Only about a quarter is formally declared to go to court cases, the rest is going into Trump's pockets.
He's not really believing he'll get anywhere with that shit, but his idiot cultists are paying him for the show, and damn it will he need that money when his debts are due and he no longer can pay his cronies in wall-building contracts instead of cash.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
'I didn't think they'd try to eat MY face!'
As much as I absolutely detest Trump and would love to see him homeless and destitute so he could find out what it's like to be on the other side of things for once in his life I can't help but enjoy more than a little schadenfreude watching his idiots cultists get ripped off like that.
Cheer on and support a con-man and it's only fitting that you get conned as well, couldn't happen to a more deserving group.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Cultists detested by the Cult Leader
We all know the lyrics to the song. First they came for the Communists...Then they came for the Trade Unionists...Then the Jews...
We're all on the list. Some of us are higher on the list than others.
Related, from the US National Park Service regarding escaping from bears: Do NOT push down a slower friend (even if you think the friendship has run its course).
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
"He has already collected something like $140mil of slush money for paying those bills in his "Stop the Steal" charade"
$170 million, and growing.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/president-donald-trump-raises-more-than-170-mil lion-since-election-day/index.html
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
Yes, now more than $200mil. That's a lot of money for endangering the life of a few public servants. And those are "deep state" actors anyway, refusing to take a break from counting and certifying votes as if their boss wasn't Trump but the hoi polloi.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Dear AC.
What some havent seen so far,
is the Tax savings he gave tot he poor, ENDS in 2021.
After that is a PAYBACK tax, for al they saved in the last few years.
But if you made More money then the other 70% in the USA, you wont have much problems.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
You're right, absolutely no one has seen this "tax-savings to the poor" from Trump.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
It looks like AG Bill Barr will be next on the firing line
Now one of Trump's staunchest supporters is stepping back from the kool-aid https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55153366
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: It looks like AG Bill Barr will be next on the firing line
Yes he sure seems in hot water now.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Trump already fired Krebs
Alas, the Trump campaign will never find a man of his calibre again. And in their search for a smoking gun, the Whitehouse is going to reload Krebs just so they can fire him again.
And at whom will they fire him? They don't dare fire him at one of the judges who ruled against Trump, he might tell the whole truth!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
As a [mob] lawyer and officer of the court this guy should be sanctioned, disbarred, and then deported or imprisoned. Krebs is a de facto expert witness for cases that Trump's "team" is pushing [nowhere so far, thankfully], so this is de facto witness intimidation (which is very much illegal). Tarring and feathering would be good, too.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Wise Words
Were never spoken so true.
I thought you guys were tech people? So you have 1,000s of affidavits, anomalies, statistical impossibilities, and then you have someone who is supposed to be in tech security making utterly imbecilic statements, and they were so ignorant and incompetent that you would boot the guy out of YOUR tech company and blacklist him from ever working in security or tech again, and you have some problem with what Deg\Genova said?
How could you possibly ignore all of the tech info proof of cheating? Because Trump? That is the only reason. What next? Trump says the sky is blue and you write an article claiming outrage? What is wrong with you?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Wise Words
But not provided or demonstarted in court, which makes them look like figments of Trumps imagination.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Wise Words
Because all that evidence is in your collective dreamworld and doesn't exist anywhere in reality or the election process.
What statistical impossibilities? I'll wait.
Affadavits, sure, with nothing to back them up and frequently no person to admit to writing them. More people making shit up because they want to believe.
On the other hand, "conservatives" intimidating poll workers and voters was a real thing.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
If you've got some actual evidence to support election fraud on a significant scale why are you wasting time here rather than giving it to Trump's legal team, I'm sure they'd love to get their hands on something that might actually stand up in court rather than the baseless claims, flat out lies and conspiracy theories that have been getting them laughed out of dozens of cases to date.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Wise Words
"How could you possibly ignore all of the tech info proof of cheating?"
Because no actual proof has been presented to a court? We've had a lot of insinuations, but nothing solid has actually been presented to a venue where it can be properly investigated.
If it's so widespread and obvious, why do they always clam up when they're in front of a judge instead of cameras?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]