Judge Hears Arguments Over Telco Immunity
from the Constitutional-questions dept
We were quite disappointed with Congress earlier this year, selling out the country and granting retroactive immunity to telcos for any involvement they might have had in any warrantless wiretapping program. The immunity basically gave the White House a get out of jail free card that it could hand to any telco -- even if that telco clearly violated constitutional rights. No matter which side of the political aisle you fall on, this should be extremely disturbing. It basically lets the President decide that certain companies don't need to obey the constitution. That, by itself, seems to be unconstitutional.Not surprisingly, the EFF and the ACLU sued over the granting of immunity, and the judge in the case heard the arguments on both sides on Tuesday. While there was a lot of back and forth, at least part of the exchange suggested that the judge agreed with the government's position, telling the EFF's lawyer that he should take up his complaint with Congress, not through the courts.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but isn't a large part of the reason for the judicial system to be a check on the power of Congress and the White House -- specifically on making sure they don't do anything unconstitutional? It's not clear when the judge will rule, but I've yet to see a single reasonable explanation for why telcos should be granted immunity. If what they did wasn't illegal, then there's nothing to worry about. If what they did was illegal, but they felt that it was in the best interests of the country, then let them explain that in court to mitigate the situation. Granting retroactive immunity goes against everything the rule of law should stand for.
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Filed Under: telco immunity
Companies: aclu, eff
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Re: anonymos coward
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Liberal Media? It isn't as if the Conservative Media has done anything in this regard either. Lets leave off the labels and call it what it is: The Mainstream Media.
Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, Republican, Right Wing Zealots and Left Wing Radicals. How long did it take for this country to become so divided? It's a shame that We the People have become so pacified. Spoon fed our thoughts and values by those in the position to do so (from the Clergy and the Media), that we allow ourselves to be mindless drones unwilling to think for ourselves. Few people rant and rave to get others to "Vote them out!" Or the more extreme, "Rise up with guns." But as long as the majority of the people are comfortable, they'll sit there and consume all that the Mainstream Media has to offer.
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Peter Watts' novels, among others, offer results of the abrogation of constitutional 'protections' and the new world disorder. I'm glad to be dead.
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>> fathers, being dead and all, are
>> the corpses running our country?
Gee, you are a dense one aren't you? What do you think they meant when they wrote the 4th Amendment?
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But speaking of which, those license checks police are fond of are a prime example of a violation of the 4th amendment. Another example is game wardens checking for hunting licenses and examining the contents of fisherman's coolers. I don't see any probably cause and I definitely don't see any warrants being used in these cases.
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Re: 'founding fathers, being dead and all'
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Just a little more...
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Re: Just a little more...
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The judiciary and the constitution
Actually, no. The courts are responsible to make sure the laws are enforced equitably. The constitution gave Congress the right to draft law, no matter how draconian, as long as it didn't explicitly violate the constitution. Interpreting the constitution is a recent activity that is abused regularly by the courts.
I go agree that the Congress gave the President a "get out of jail free" card for the telcos, but we should be voting Congress members who voted for it out of office instead of looking to the courts to fix everything we don't like.
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My 2 cents, but worth .002 due to the economy.
I'm at a loss to determine how the constitution applies to wiretapping. The 4th amendment discusses place of unreasonable search and seizure.
Wire tapping goes outside the bounds of place, does it not? How is a signal considered property?
Regardless of the questions above, to focus more on your question regarding checks and balances, since when has the American people given a damn about what the government is doing?
It seems people would rather bitch and complain rather than actually do something to voice their opinion, especially given the fact most of these whiners elected the very official they put in office.
I'm not sure who said it, but it's true that as the world's greatest superpower, we are powerless against our government due to fear.
After all, that how the phrase "you can't fight city hall" is warranted.
Your blog posting is a nice idea, but without giving people choices on how to object, it's pretty much a moot point as they just don't care.
If the tapping devices were placed in the place, I can justify the topic. However, most tapping devices aren't truly devices, but merely picking up signals once they're placed in the public scope.
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Re: My 2 cents, but worth .002 due to the economy.
And while we're at it, I'll put a tracking device on your car while it's parked on a public street and let the police know everywhere you go..
Wiretapping in ANY form is EXPLICITY covered by the 4th Amendment as the Supreme Court (remember, those guys in the funny black robes whose jobs it is to INTERPRET the law) has already ruled.
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Re: Re: My 2 cents, but worth .002 due to the economy.
An IBM patent covers this--
http://techdirt.com/articles/20080313/221036.shtml
Scary stuff.
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Re: Re: My 2 cents, but worth .002 due to the economy.
When? Where?
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Re: Re: My 2 cents, but worth .002 due to the economy.
Once anything leaves my property, I automatically assume it's going to be read by another party other than the intended. It's why I wouldn't have a problem of those snooping in my business. I've nothing to hide.
I always find it's those breaking the damn law who are usually pissed about things like this.
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Re: My 2 cents, but worth .002 due to the economy.
Wire tapping goes outside the bounds of place, does it not? How is a signal considered property?
the 4th amendment says:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
how is a person secure in his person, house, papers, and effects against unreasonable search if his conversations and correspondence, electronic or otherwise, are being pen registered or actively monitored without warrants?
the 4th amendment states that a search or seizure with out a warrant is unreasonable.
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Re: My 2 cents, but worth .002 due to the economy.
If the tapping devices were placed in the place, I can justify the topic. However, most tapping devices aren't truly devices, but merely picking up signals once they're placed in the public scope.
It's always a device. Installing fiber optic splitters so the "signal" can be tapped into is not the same as "picking up signals once they're placed in the public scope". These signals are not placed into the public scope.
When I send an email to my mistress or call her on the phone she is the only intended recipient: not the public. Just because my communication must be handled by AT&T does not make it publicly available to everyone.
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Re: Re: My 2 cents, but worth .002 due to the economy.
This clearly shows why the Wiretap Act was put in place, but no where does the constitution grant you this security you seem to think you (and everyone) else has.
You've hit a key word: intended. There's absolutely no guarantee, law or not, your recipient is the only one who received the message.
You'd be a complete fool to think otherwise. Not trying to troll here, but the bottom line is once communication leaves your home, it IS public domain.
Just because it crosses wires or airwaves means nothing.
So my original statement remains: The constitution does not protect you or anyone from messages leaving your person, house, paper, and effect.
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If the law was not in place, then it would be legal and the constitution still bears no weight against this type of intrusion.
We should all be so lucky to think our "private" messages aren't being intercepted, but I would suggest you carry the thought of knowing it's possible to dictate what you say if you don't want prying ears to hear.
And as a side note: Mike has pointed out many times that "secure" isn't necessarily so. Recently, a postal worker was arrested for using a home made device which scanned cards to determine if cash was inside them. Clever, but proof even snail mail isn't protected despite any law to the contrary.
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I am, pretty sure we did with the recent elections. While not a complete shaking out of the rug, it certainly was a good brooming.
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the deal that passed was a compromise. there were two issues in the various FISA update bills:
1) legalization of warrantless wire tapping for terrorist suspects
2) retroactive immunity for the companies that participated in the warrantless wiretap program
the compromise was a NO on issue 1 and a YES on issue 2.
both mccain and obama agreed on that compromise:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9982898-7.html
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Talk about an anti-intellectual response. But I suppose we should expect nothing less than this garbage coming from the likes of eleete.
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Double Edged Sword
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Great Idea, your family first ?
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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But it's OK, We're Friends of George
The rest of us, YOU AND I, can EXPECT to have our constitutional rights continually violated with impunity. Our mail WILL be read (both electronic and snail), our phones conversations WILL be monitored (both home and cell), and all information obtained CAN AND WILL BE stored for subsequent use AGAINST US when the time is ripe.
That's the way it is, and Congress is not about to change it, because they henefit from the access to our private data as much as George and big industry does.
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Change?? Hardly...
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Unequal Protection: The Rise of Corporate Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights
Unequal Protection: The Rise of Corporate Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights By Thom Hartmann
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"What most people don’t realize is that [corporate personhood] is a fairly recent agreement, a new cultural story, and it hasn't always been this way:
* Traditional English, Dutch, French, and Spanish law didn’t say companies are people
* The U.S. Constitution wasn’t written with that idea; corporations aren’t even mentioned.
* For America’s first century, courts all the way up to the Supreme Court repeatedly said 'No, corporations do not have the same rights as humans.'
It’s only since 1886 that the Bill of Rights and the Equal Protection Amendment have been explicitly applied to corporations. Even more, corporate personhood was never formally enacted by any branch of the US government:
*It was never voted by the public
*It was never enacted by law
*It was never even stated by a decision of the Supreme Court"
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Police officer: "Don't look at me. If you have a problem with him breaking the law, go talk to him."
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Re: anonymous asshole
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