How ASCAP And BMI Are Harming Up-And-Coming Singers
from the shakedown dept
When we talk about problems with copyright and royalty systems, sometimes people suggest that we should make an exception for the collections societies like ASCAP, BMI and SESAC that get performance royalties for songwriters, saying that since the money goes to the songwriters, rather than the labels, it's okay. However, ASCAP and the others cause significant problems. We've already discussed how they create problems, and how their views are outdated and damaging for songwriters.However, it keeps getting worse, as they get more and more desperate to collect money -- and they're doing so in a way that harms songwriters much more than helps them.
ASCAP and BMI have been aggressively targeting venues that hold open mic nights, and demanding they pay huge fees. Many venues have given up and simply stopped allowing any musicians to play at all. In fact, one made every musician sign a waiver that they would only play original songs, and ASCAP told him it didn't matter because there was no way to know if the singers were really avoiding copyrighted music, so he still needed to pay up for a license. Those that pay up then often feel they need to charge a cover fee, so attendance dwindles.
It's basically making it more difficult for the next generation of musicians to get started, and ASCAP is so blind to this they don't even know what they're talking about. In response to the article, an ASCAP representative claims:
"What gives anyone the right to use someone else's property, even though they're not making money on it? I can guarantee you the phone company's going to charge you whether you're making money or not."First off, this shows an ignorance of what is and is not "property." It also shows no concept of the larger picture of how using copyright to limit singers from appearing is harming artists. As for the non sequitur about the phone company... it's not clear what that has to do with anything.
It's time for musicians to start realizing that these societies do not have the songwriters' best interests in mind.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: collections, new singers, open mic nights, royalties
Companies: ascap, bmi, sesac
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
Flamage.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Flamage.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ASCAP and BMI is a better model. (Note operative word, "Better").
It would be helpful if someone could shed light on what this "ideal business model" everyone keeps whining about but no one can explain.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: by Anonymous Coward on Jan 12th, 2009 @ 10:58am
For starters, go back to their old business model, and don't force a venue to pay for a license that only allows performers to play original music or music that is in the public domain. Then for seconds, quit going after businesses for playing a radio in the background.
Oh, but that cuts into the profits of their NEW extortionist business model.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: by Anonymous Coward on Jan 12th, 2009 @ 10:58am
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
They are there simply to try to milk the system every way they can. If they cared about the artists, they wouldn't be acting like a-holes. Because lately, that is all they seem like.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
everything is music is for profit, even the nonprofits.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
While the RIAA may control the souls of big artists so to speak, ASCAP/BMI controls those who don't even willingly become a part of them, and thus controls far, far more artists than the RIAA affects.
Where people fileshare anyway, businesses don't challenge the ASCAP as much at all.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Start here:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070503/012939.shtml
There is no single ideal business model, but what we're concerned about are these unnecessary models that require payment through collective licensing, rather than market mechanisms. The market is much better at determining the proper price of things than some royalties board.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: better business model
With this idea, everyone wins. The society can point directly at the data for proof they are paying what they are supposed to and become more transparent (which is always a good thing). The artists/writers get exactly what they should, no more, no less. Music fans get more places to hear music. Restaurants and coffeeshops can offer music as an attractor to their place. Electronics companies get to produce the monitors. Software guys get to program the automated systems. Everyone wins.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
In before ASCAP apologists/buttkissers/employees come in and start touting everything ASCAP has done to help the industry.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Double standard
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Double standard
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Double standard
Imagine that some phone booth company would charge anybody that's outdoors because they *might* be using their phone boots...
Well, I guess they'll make more money that way then by actually measuring the use and charging those who use it. Let's forget the damage to society and unfairness, etc...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Double standard
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
That's twice today I'm swaring in the subject
How the hell is that an argument? They don't know that all the music on my iPod is legal. They don't know that I'm not streaming it out to everyone from my server at home. Are they going to come after me next? Are the police going to pull me over because they don't know that my car isn't stolen?
Now I want to make a web site hosting nothing but indie bands just to piss them off. Too bad I don't know anything more advanced than HTML. Maybe I'll setup a website hosting nothing but my random plucking of my guitar.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: That's twice today I'm swaring in the subject
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: That's twice today I'm swaring in the subject
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: That's twice today I'm swaring in the subject
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
The relevance
Uhmn, this actually seems to be a reference to the fact that you used to RENT the phone itself directly from the phone companies. Company. Only one existed at the time.
Emphasis on USED TO -- this was how many decades ago? and how much innovation and expansion occurred in the communications sector AFTER they broke it into the Baby Bells?
Wow.
A dusty old reference that actually proves the OPPOSITE of what was actually being said.
Most impressive.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
First of all, what an incredible non sequitur. The phone company are charging you for one thing and one thing only - the phone service. What you use it for is irrelevant.
What ASCAP are talking about here is charging for licences *regardless* of whether the service they provide (the right to play copyrighted songs from other artists) is used or not. This would be the equivalent of the phone company charging you a set amount every day whether you used the phone or not (on top of the line rental, of course).
Then, what an incredible ignorance this shows of how the music industry works. There is not a single band in existence (AFAIK) who haven't cut their teeth by imitating their favourite artists in some way. Every successful band, from The Beatles to Linkin Park have cut their teeth on playing cover versions. Imagine if nobody turned up to the Cavern Club because the licensing fees were too expensive...
If this were another RIAA effort, I'd laugh and gloat about how they're truly killing their own promotional chances. But, since this affects independent artists as well, it's a travesty. Whereas I happily boycotted the RIAA's output to protest their actions, I can't think of a way to make my feelings known here. If I boycott live gigs, the artists will hurt far more than these idiots, whereas if I help pay their licences I'm helping artists who have no right to the money to begin with. Horrible.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
But this venue-fee thing makes my head hurt. It needs to come to a full stop. There's more to ASCAP/BMI beyond licensing, but it's all artist-focused. The corner dive bar that hosts an occasional Karaoke Night could never benefit from ASCAP/BMI membership outside of blackmail.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
These types of attitudes are ruining it for the rest of us. Musicians are their own worst enemies.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
I don't expect you to understand, but, no, I don't actually want to get SOCAN cheques. Not when they're seeking to implement restrictive new media tariffs on bloggers and podcasters, not when it's an all-or-nothing choice and you have to automatically assign all your performance rights to the collective, making membership incompatible with certain Creative Commons licences which I use for my music.
How so?
Yesterday, I had a friendly chat with someone at the SOCAN booth at NXNE yesterday, and a similar attitude came through.
On one hand, as the rhetoric goes, a songwriter owns his songs, and has a right to be compensated for any use -- it's property, just like any other!
Yet, when you get down to the specifics... SOCAN wants me to automatically assign all my rights to them, which would mean that I am unable to waive my own rights even if I want to. If I could selectively register works with SOCAN, I'd join, but SOCAN's all-or-nothing approach is much more about supporting the collective and SOCAN's bottom line than about "giving me control over my property."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I'm not defending ASCAP's strongarm tactics, which have been infamous for decades (long before anyone started talking about new business models or needs to fix or do away with old copyright regimes). It's why bars in the late 70s got rid of jukeboxes or spent $$ to install new digital ones, because the societies were taking the position that, since they couldn't know what 45s were being put in the jukeboxes or how many times each song was played, the jukebox vendors should just pay a relatively large flat annual fee, which of course was passed along to their clients, the bars, in the form of a smaller cut of all the coins put in them. Bars in return started to call their vendors and ask them to remove the machines, and before you know it, digital boxes were being installed that were capable of actually logging what was played and how many times. That resulted in lower annual fees from most jukeboxes. This is all, BTW, why so many classic jukeboxes like Wurlitzers, became high-end collectors items.
But the thing is, songwriters are often the paradigmatic artists -- behind the scenes, relatively unknown, no fans, no merchandising opportunities or touring opportunities. They can be and are often very much unlike the performing artists, and they rely solely on royalty income from songs they wrote. Societies like ASCAP and BMI are essential to folks like these, and as AnonCoward points out, provide loads of very helpful resources to songwriters (though not a vast network of production capabilities, they do provide exposure and opportunities to meet and connect with the folks who daily talk to tv and film producers, makers of games, advertising agencies, and all the places where serious licensing deals are part of the business).
I don't have a problem at all with this general structure. And, fact is, most venues do pay their fees and don't complain because it's not much money and they know it helps support the creation of new compositions, which drives the rest of the business.
The problem is with completely innocent -- and equally necessary -- activities like open mic nights, which generally happen at truly inconsequential venues anyway, the very first places any artist or band gets to perform in many places. Yes, some of those have a couple paid nights a week, though some like coffee houses don't, just a tin cup the artist passes around after her set. I would think the better course would be to carve an exception, which would be very easy to do.
And you would think, after a number of notorious episodes like the jukeboxes, muzak in elevators, background music in retailers, that the societies would have learned their lesson. Jukeboxes are largely a thing of the past, or are generating lower annual royalties because they are internet-connected, and capable of generating accurate reports. There is no elevator music anymore. And retailers who want music have found better options than paying royalties to the societies.
Nobody benefits when a small venue stops hosting open mic nights, battles of the bands, and other such things. But when a venue is charging, and bands are playing covers written by other composers, it's fair to allow the composer a royalty, which only amounts to a few cents per performance anyway.
This is all really a more complex system, but it is one that actually has worked, and by and large still does. But the excesses are what get everyone in a lather, arguing that we should now just scrap the system entirely.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
We do have a contract with PlayNetwork so we can play XM at our establishment.
We just received a letter from ASSCAP wanting money for live performances (less than 3 a month!) at our place. We PAY our musicians. Why shouldn't that be enough! I just can't see how McCartney is going to get paid if someone sings a Beatles song in our place.
This is nothing but a shakedown and ASSCAP is not the only group out there. Unfortunately the artists get hurt in this scheme. Either we pay them less or we hire them less frequently.
Too bad.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
That was quite a while ago, though.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
BMI/ASCAP
Don't you think the artists should get their cuts to promote good songwriting in the industry.
You need to look at the trade sites before you rattle on once again Mike Masnick.
Once again, Doh! I hate this website.... gotta quit coming back thinking that you'll change.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: BMI/ASCAP
Using American Idol as your defense? Yikes. That's not working in your favor.
First of all, you don't need ASCAP/BMI to do American Idol. Not sure why you would imply otherwise.
Second, the number of musicians who have come through that show are a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of singer songwriters out there who have fewer venues do to what's described in the post.
Do you really think that a season of American Idol replaces all the venues that won't do open mic nights?
Wow.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: BMI/ASCAP
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: BMI/ASCAP
they sang it beautifully... never even got a response from both of them.... i am the real songwriter here.... bmi music corporation are still denying of all the songs i have sent to them... they promising of some royalties did not get nothing in return.. been a member since 1994... they said i could not have written any songs cause i am a female and mexican american.... what about that..... these people are making a percentage of the musics that make it big....
i still have the old contracts from them......
the other lyrics i sent to the music artists includes...
lady gaga, rihanna, pitbull, keri hilson, britney spears... chris brown... song bedrock.with lil wayne...
orianthi, keisha people i sent you all my info...and phone numbers why did you not call back.......
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
I have no problem with all bars paying small fees to these societies. The problem is that the fees aren't small except for juke boxes. This encourages canned music and discourages live. While it's true that a performance would not exist without a good song, the performance is really what people are paying for with live music.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
bad bad bad
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Ascap,Bmi,Sesac
Does anyone know how to deal with this crap? It seems like illegal triple-dipping, anti-business,anti-american,anti-musician greedy idiocy.
M
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Ascap,Bmi,Sesac
We are a tiny 780 square foot wine bar with 6 seats at the bar and a few tables. We pay musicians to play a couple of times a month.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Ascap,Bmi,Sesac
what a cocksucker...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Ascap,Bmi,Sesac
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Mafia Tactics
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Mafia Tactics
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Now it seems more like guilty until proven innocent.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I guess what he's trying to say is that if you use your phone services you will be billed whether or not you're making money in the processes. Likewise, you should be billed if you use someone else's material, even if you're not making money on it. BTW, I'm not saying I agree with his arguments, just trying to figure out what he means.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Based on your very BROAD interpretation of what constitutes someone elses property perhaps Webster should bill you for every single word that you use. Didn't someone (or some people) come up with the English language? By your logic, shouldn't the English language be considered someones property? Who came out with the English language? Perhaps we can give their descendants a copyright on it so that every time someone says something they have to pay a fee. What nonsense. Just because someone may say something that might, in some vague way, have a similarity to some other song does not mean they are violating copyright. The words we use, the music we make, all have fundamental properties and are composed of fundamental similarities (ie: the sentences we make are composed of similar words, the words we make are composed of similar letters. So different books share these same fundamental things in common. So if someone writes a book are they violating copyright because they may have a word that appears in some other book? Different pitches in a song should follow certain ratios, this has been fundamentally known for a long time. So if anyone makes a song that follows those rules are they violating copyright just because most other songs follow the same rules?).
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ASCAP, BMI
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: ASCAP, BMI
It's not easy to get away from the collection societies, because they believe that they have a right to collect for any use of any music, just in case it's theirs (as evidenced by this post).
But the Creative Commons Attribution (CC BY) and Attribution-Share Alike (CC BY-SA) licences both involve waiving performance rights, so an establishment which only plays CC BY or CC BY-SA music should (in theory) not owe anyone performance royalties. (As I musician, I license my works under a CC BY-SA licence and I'm not a member of any collection agency.)
Somehow, though, I'd still expect the collection societies to come knocking.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: ASCAP, BMI
Who knew that even they have people with brains?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
BMI
A BMI rep stopped in today and basically told me that we owe BMI $1100 for music licensing this year. His contention is that BMI cannot be sure if we are playing unlicensed music or not. There is a chance we are playing licensed music, therefore we have to pay licensing fees like we were hosting a Bob Seger cover band 2-4 nights per week!
The people who play music at our club are people love music. They write it themselves. They play it themselves. They own it themselves. Who's to say they can't give it away? Who's to say that when they give it away, the owner of the building where they give it away needs to pay for music they're not playing?!
This is plain extortion any way you cut it. I don't want to give up promoting new music but damn! I guess I'll take the paper work to my lawyer and we'll see where we'll go from here....
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
free free free
re the phone analogy, of course the phone company will charge you even if you don't make a single call!! Are you kidding? I can't think of a single other business that is giving away anything!! PROs are collecting for the good of the musician. If they charge in like bulls in a china shop that's not cool, but don't attack the system that is there for the benefit of musicians, just try to make a friendly arrangement.
re musicians having the right to give their music away. I'll bet you would think differently if there was a venue across the street from yours that was giving away food and booze, all the time. Do you think you'd be saying they have the right to do that?
Open mic nights etc sound so altuistic but they are essential a way of getting free employees to boost your business. Everyone seems to think this is ok. Tell me where is the musician's income supposed to come from? Where, tell me?
The system is far from perfect and many things are being worked out "on the fly" as things change rapidly. Not all of the money goes to the right places, but it is intended for musicians/artists. That's why they collect it!! Work *with* the system, don't fight against it. Of course you have to pay for music wherever and however it appears. Shut up. ASCAP etc....keep on doing your job.
(and musicians...get your shit together!)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: free free free
Really? ... really?! Not a single one?
There's an entire book coming out about these businesses, if you need some help. Maybe, give Google a test run, as both an example of a business giving away something, and a tool to find other businesses doing the same.
Have you been to many websites before?
Um... why wouldn't they have a right to do that? If they can stay in business, how could you possibly claim that don't have a right to do that? On what grounds?
That you can't compete?
Your inability to compete doesn't take away anybody's right to give away stuff they own for free. You clearly haven't thought this through for very long.
Open mic nights are obviously for musicians who aren't able to make a living off their music yet. They provide a platform for getting started. Lots of great songwriters have honed their skills and fine-tuned their craft at open mic nights, before getting the confidence, experience and exposure they need to make money off their music.
Or, sometimes more established artists will go to open mic nights for the community, for the chance to share music and to try out something new.
Open mic nights aren't exploiting artists as "free employees" (I think you mean "unpaid"). Artists play their music for free in exchange for access to the platform (stage) and community (audience, often full of other songwriters).
I bet that if a songwriter was good enough to demand money for their performance, they wouldn't be frequenting an open mic night. These are for the little guys who are getting started (like myself).
Really? What if I whistle a tune on the bus. What if it's your tune? Do I owe you money?
What if kids are singing songs in school? Is that exploiting songwriters unfairly?
What if a guitar teacher is playing a song to teach it to me? What if it's a violin teacher, and that song is in the public domain?
If you think about this for a bit longer than it takes to type a comment, you'll realize that there plenty of times when you don't have to pay for music, depending on where and how you use it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: free free free
"Can't I compete?" It is clear that if the restaurant across the street gives away excellent (or even half decent) food for free then NO I could not compete. Where is the competition? Yes they would have the right to do it, but I would go out of business very swiftly because naturally people would eat at the free restaurant instead of paying at mine. I could always start giving away my food too, but then that would cost me a lot of money, and what reasonable business person would want to stay in a business like that?
(a musician I guess)
Yes, I have thought this through. I spend a great deal of my professional life thinking this through.
I am not aware of any other business where the participants are so willing to cut their own throats and participate in their own demise.
Who said there aren't plenty of times when you don't have to pay for music (like when you whistle a tune on the bus)? Who said that? This is reductio ad absurdum. We are talking about situations where Performance Rights apply. Maybe you should read up on them.
Open mics are not just frequented by rank beginners but by those at all levels and the Performance Rights apply regardless. I can think of a several examples right in my own city. These venues should not be exempt from paying the fees. They are making money from food and drinks being sold. If they weren't, *they wouldn't do it*. That's business (unless you're a musician, or course)
And it is not the case that when you get "good enough" you will be able to demand money. Where do you get that idea? This is certainly a myth of the highest order. There are dozens of "good" musicians under every rock who can't make money from their work because now they are expected to give it away...cause after all, they're just like Google.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: free free free
I didn't compare Google with working musicians. That was just a response to your unbelievable comment: "I can't think of a single other business that is giving away anything!!"
Seriously? 99% of the services they provide are for free, and I'm being paid by Google right now to write code for an open source project (not only is that free (gratis), but it's also "giving away intellectual property" (libre)).
Yes... and, they became Zillionaires by building successful business models based on free.
The fact that they're filthy rich supports the argument that you can give stuff away and still make a profit.
Then you haven't been paying very close attention, because it's not just the big guys giving stuff away for free, whether we're talking about software or music.
*sigh*
The whole point is to give away stuff for free when it doesn't cost anything to do so. When the marginal cost of reproduction is zero. Once you've made a digital audio file, the difference in cost is negligible if 1 copy is made or if 1 million copies are made.
It hardly costs anything to give abundant goods away for free, or to let someone broadcast your song and promote your music.
A good chunk of my income actually does come from music, thanks.
Right. Just like there's water flowing from the taps in our country, and absolutely no one makes a living selling bottled water. Oh, wait...
Benefits. Make better food. Get feedback from your customers. Give people a reason to buy.
The zero is irrelevant. What if it cost you $x to make a slice of pizza, and a shop across the street was selling it for $x/2. It doesn't even have to be free. The point is, they've undercut your price.
You have two options: compete by price, or by benefit.
You can match or beat the price. Or, you can make you offering more valuable.
The only difference with $0 is that you can't really beat the price. You can still match it (if they can give away all their food and stay in business, why can't you?), or you can give people a reason to buy your food.
Apple computers are more expensive, but they give customers a reason to pay a premium by offered perceived benefits.
Um, obviously the people across the street. Either they stay in business, in which case they're extremely reasonable because they've decimated the competition from you. Or, they go out of business... in which case, why are you complaining?
Or, more likely, you find a way to adapt and give people a reason to buy your food. Sure, some people will always go for the cheaper stuff, but there's a reason some people eat at fancy restaurants instead of McDonald's all the time.
It's not really that hard to understand...
It happens all the time in technology, because things are moving so quickly (e.g. Intel).
The problem is, if you don't find a way to "undercut" yourself, someone else will. You can hang on to the copyright cash cow, but when people are figuring out how to make a living with out it, that well is going to dry up soon. You can hang on to the dwindling source of revenue, or you can be one of the people learning how to make money elsewhere.
You did: "Of course you have to pay for music wherever and however it appears. Shut up."
Performance Rights is not the same was "wherever and however [music] appears." Plus, it's not at all clear cut what constitutes a performance, offline or online.
Is hosting songs on a website a public performance? What if you need a password to access them, and only 3 people (your family members) have accounts? What if those three people are your friends? What if 3000 people have accounts? 3 million?
When does it become public?
You made a comment that you always need to pay for "music wherever and however it is used;" I'm using reductio ad absurdum because that's an absurd statement.
Have you read any of the other comments? Some of them aren't able to do it with the shakedowns from BMI. That's the point.
For many who are starting it, the promotional value of being able to play at an open mic or having your CD spun in a venue is much more important than the nickels you'd get in royalties. Yet, these collection organizations are creative financial disincentives for venues to support open mics or play CDs from local artists.
Ok, agreed. That was sloppy on my part. Being good isn't enough -- you also need a business model that works.
You're confusing what to give away. It makes sense to charge for live performances -- that's a scarcity, and it requires your time and presence. It doesn't make as much sense to charge a venue to play your recordings -- it doesn't cost you anything for them to spin your CD, and it's actually promoting your music. Why create a disincentive for venues to promote your music?
It makes even less sense to worry about charging for every use of a digital audio file -- that's probably the only place where a comparison to Google makes some sense (as Google gives away open source software, or lets people use Gmail for free).
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
There are plenty of people still willing to (over)pay for music.
Not all of the money goes to the right places
almost all the money goes to the wrong places. RIAA, Record labels and collection agencies don't give a shit about musicians. If they cared, they'd be more transparent. They are liars and cheats, why should anyone want to [w]ork *with* the system?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
wow, you're obviously not a working musician
almost all the money goes to the wrong places. RIAA, Record labels and collection agencies
What are you basing this on, exactly? And we're not talking about record labels, that is completely different. We're talking about Performance Rights Groups, collecting money for the performance of music, whether it's on the sound system at a club, on a stage at a club/festival or on (a lot but not enough of) radio. This is a business. There seems to me some misconception that PROs just line their pockets with your money. Where do you get that from? The money goes to songwriters.
We're also talking about intellectual property and those who have it depend on the income it generates in order to make a living. I certainly do.
why should anyone want to [w]ork *with* the system?
I file my performances with SOCAN and get money for that, I get some airplay and I get paid for that.
I love my SOCAN cheques and depend on them to eek out my living as a musician.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ASCAP or BMI?
I'm trying to decide asap and it seems like BMI is better but, if convinced that ASCAP isn't what people proclaim it to be then things could change.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Musicians best interest
The ship is goin down & it's every musician for themselves. This is that proverbial "Gun fight at the OK corral" we've heard so much about. Lie cheat & steal have replaced
"Truth, justice & the American way". From potatoe chip bags that come from the factory Half empty-to kangaroo meat in your Bigmac.
Integrity... now refers to how well a singer/songwriter stays together after being pummled by a baseball bat.
I copyright thru library of congress, but so did the people who wrote Moneyworld (which you may recognize as 9 to 5. a song reportedly stolen by big ol Dolly & partner Jane Fonda)
My "plan" is...if some millionaire superstar steals my manual labor song...They need to keep a sharp eye out on that front row when they perform it. Sooner or later I WILL be there & there will be a scene & they will have some 'splaining to doto all thier fans.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
BMI & ASCAP folksingers' rebellion
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: BMI & ASCAP folksingers' rebellion
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Another great club thinking of ening music
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Yeah You Right
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Trying to start a dialog with BMI
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Lawyers, Guns and Money
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Enough Already
1. I pay muzak to play music. 2. I pay Karaoke DJs who have already purchased the music that they play to entertain the guests. 3. I pay the live bands to play music that they already purchased the music sheet music to entertain the guests. 4. I pay DJ's music to play music that the purchased to entertain the guests and make the songs popular.
This is in the hopes that in this economy people buy enough food and drinks to pay for all the people I try to keep employed, gas, electric, taxes (state & federal), food purchases, division of restaurants and bars, unemployment, accounting, food, beverage, up keep, etc. The list is so long it would take several pages but you get the jist.
Please consider that we are the venues that make the songs popular that our guests go and buy. We are the businesses that are trying to keep people that are struggling financially. BMI is directly responsible for putting many a restaurant and bar out of business and consequently many people go unemployed. They in turn go get unemployment from the federal government and who ultimately pays? All of us. Tax payers.
BMI has threatened me, my job and my business by asking for outrageous amounts of money. It is not a valid charge for a common restaurant to be the target of these fees. This is clearly a form of extortion and is clearly an assault on the common business owner.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Legal challenge is the answer
I have heard maybe a dozen covers in the last couple years. Yet I know 10 clubs being shaken down right now in Boston for fees the clubs know will never go to the artists performing the tunes.
And once you pay the fees you really can't justify paying live performers since you are paying fees to play recordings you might as well play the radio since you already paid the fees 4 times over. I really feel that the organizations are extorting money from small venues to pay themselves and their larger constituents royalties they do not deserve in most cases.
A venue of 250 WITHOUT PRO-representation currently pays ALL the money to musicians. Forcing clubs to pay fees "in case someone plays a lady Gaga tune" is simple extortion since 95% of the time none of the money collected gets to the actual composer. (Yes I am aware that anyone can register.) The money goes to major label artists who are organization members. (Most small bands are not members. It really isn't worth the paperwork unless you are in heavy rotation on affiliated stations and have management to take care of the paperwork for you.)
Pretty much the proper solution is that public performances of professional recordings (i.e. radio and cds) should pay a fee built into the radio/cd licenses for these venues. (Right now venues get hit four times paying for the music/service then paying 3 different license organizations) Small venues should be exempt. Since is rarely worth the artists time at that level and as a result the money just gets funneled to big artists in a big swindle.
That money comes from what could be paid to performers and instead going to artists already getting radio play. (Shazam can not identify covers from live shows so that argument is just false, BTW) I think the organizations might have an argument when a club plays primarily covers or DJs from CDs. But really how are they identifying the songs? Answer: They don't. They calculate it based on participating clubs and channels play participating artists. It is basically just an excuse to shake down smaller organizations for money to give money to their members.
Not unlike the mob.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
BMI & ASCAP
and make a living playing professionally as well. In my opinion, many venues expect that musicians will just come in and play for free, regardless of their level of experience or musicianship. Basically, they exploit musicians to do their marketing and advertising for them. If those venues really cared about the arts, and really appreciated what artists and musicians bring to their locales, then they would be sure to help cultivate a society that is supportive of the arts. That is - a society that is not hesitant whatsoever to cough up a few bucks to support open mics, performing musicians. Venues can pay their BMI & ASCAP fees out of a percentage of those proceeds. Then money is left to buy some decent sound equipment for the venue so musicians and open micers don't have to schlep theirs to the gig only to get paid peanuts for their many hours of time and effort. Believe me these exploitive venues aren't doing current or future musicians a favor by getting people used to having free entertainment at the expense of musicians' livelihoods. As far as I am concerned exploitive venues are dressed in a guise of progressivism when, in fact, they are really just as greedy as next free-market monger who side steps their responsibilities in maintaining a free society.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: BMI & ASCAP
What percentage of those ASCAP/BMI fees actually goes to musicians playing at open mics?
Of the money that goes to artists (and I know how little of it there often is—I play at these venues), why should that be paid out to collection societies to be distributed to artists with the most airplay, as opposed to given directly to the local musicians who are actually performing?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: BMI & ASCAP
Thank you for your comment and this goes to my question. ASCAP is demanding a fee from me, as a small cafe owner, who gives local musicians a chance to play. I give the musicians a percentage of my gross, (20%)which I think is fair. But, when I ask them if they had ever received anything from ASCAP they just roll their eyes and shake their head. Does all the millions they collect simply protect the musician against copy write infringement? If so, they why do I have to pay for their protection? I'm confused by the whole thing! And does the estate of Frank Sinatra get a few pennies when I play his CD's? How do they know what I pop in the CD player? And is it a law they I have to pay ASCAP? I know, I should be asking ASCAP these questions, but I thought you or someone else closer to this would let me know.
Thanks
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: BMI & ASCAP
Jamendo doesn't charge nearly as much and the artists have quite a number of rights.
Why not find alternatives? The problem with ASCAP and BMI is the very fact that the money is not distributed evenly. Basically, it's a raw deal on all sides.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Bogus article
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
control
Control of work that only a songwriter owns is a type of corporate communism-{belonging to all}; that is all who are at that particular time collecting royalties. Thus leaving the local songwriter collecting no royalties at all and paying those who don't deserve it royalties for work they did not write or produce. Even if you are affiliated but haven't received royalties for a hit; you won't collect royalties for the license the business' are being forced to obtain. That is not simple. One does not have to be famous to be a songwriter-you simply write.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
If it wasn't for BMI I wouldn't get a cent and its ONLY fair in MY opinion that Bars/Venues pay to play these songs. This is my business, my career, my job... If we dont make our money we don't eat... Why should BARS and VENUES be able to play our stuff for FREE? How is that fair at all... Pay your yearly dues, by your license and you wont get sued, that or stop playing copyrighted music... It is someone elses intellectual property, someone who spent their life making it, they deserve to get paid...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
The invention of the record player was the beginning of the end for live performance. Promotion--my ass. If canned music costs more, people would have to use live. Canned is too cheap.
Everyone here is assuming the musicians and the copyright owners have the same interests. In fact, they are competitors. New songs crowd out old songs. So, of course they want to pretend to collect "on the chance that there may be some ASCAP or BMI songs played". They WANT to kill live music or at least limit it. Expecting these groups or any enterprise in a capitalist system to do the right thing is naive. The more successful they are, the more corrupt.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
BMI and ASCAP
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
BMI - ASCAP
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
BMI - ASCAP
Businesses playing music is Free Advertising for the musicians.
Several years back, when I was working at a Mini Mart, I would bring in my CD's to listen to, and customers
would hear them too. I can tell you for a fact, that I generated sales for Nikka Costa, Bruce Dickinson, Kenny Wayne Shepherd, Johnny Lang, just to name a few.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Another Blow To Local Music
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Another Blow To Local Music
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ascap, bmi, and sesae
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Singers
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Response to: Stan Johnson on Jun 25th, 2013 @ 8:19pm
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Do performers pay license fees to BMI
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ASCAP Going Too Far
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
PROs totally misguided shakedowns...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
So not to sound like a anarchist, but...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]